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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Silver_Is_Money on February 14, 2021, 11:42:53 am

Title: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 14, 2021, 11:42:53 am
Is there a dry ale yeast that comes ballpark close to 1450 and similarly accentuates malt and mouthfeel?
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: tommymorris on February 14, 2021, 12:23:37 pm
I think Bry-97 is the closest. You could also try Mangrove Jack’s M44. But, neither are the same strain as 1450.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 14, 2021, 04:05:47 pm
That culture started out as Brewtek CL-50 California Pub Brewery.  It is allegedly the culture that Mark Ruedrich acquired from UC Davis to use at the North Coast Brewing Company.  From what I can ascertain, it is of British origin.  I have worked with UC Davis to determine its accession number with no success because it was given to Mark before they re-organized their culture collection.  In essence, the culture that became Wyeast 1450 is one of kind.  It is the culture that put Red Seal Ale on the map. It is probably the best culture available to produce American Red Ale.  BRY-97 is from a completely different lineage.  It is a Siebel BRY-96 derivative.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 14, 2021, 05:25:02 pm
I just recently did a cream ale using it. Although I feel that it didn't compliment the style. Holy God is this yeast something I have never  tasted or experienced before. I can't wait to try it again.

I got a slight citrus taste from it somehow and that mouth feel lingers, something semi sweet and silky.

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: denny on February 15, 2021, 08:19:24 am
Is there a dry ale yeast that comes ballpark close to 1450 and similarly accentuates malt and mouthfeel?

Nope not that I've ever found.  Wish there was.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: denny on February 15, 2021, 08:21:14 am
That culture started out as Brewtek CL-50 California Pub Brewery.  It is allegedly the culture that Mark Ruedrich acquired from UC Davis to use at the North Coast Brewing Company.  From what I can ascertain, it is of British origin.  I have worked with UC Davis to determine its accession number with no success because it was given to Mark before they re-organized their culture collection.  In essence, the culture that became Wyeast 1450 is one of kind.  It is the culture that put Red Seal Ale on the map. It is probably the best culture available to produce American Red Ale.  BRY-97 is from a completely different lineage.  It is a Siebel BRY-96 derivative.

And don't forget that although it may have started like that, it lived in my fridge and was recultured several times before it went to Wyeast.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: BrewBama on February 15, 2021, 08:23:58 am
Is there a dry ale yeast that comes ballpark close to 1450 and similarly accentuates malt and mouthfeel?

Nope not that I've ever found.  Wish there was.
+1


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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: PORTERHAUS on February 15, 2021, 10:19:20 am
Is there a dry ale yeast that comes ballpark close to 1450 and similarly accentuates malt and mouthfeel?

I haven't used 1450 and I am NOT trying to say Fermentis S-33 compares but, if you are looking for a dry yeast that may give you more of what you are looking for, S-33 could possibly worth a try for you. It has to be the most mislabeled yeast out there and has been for a long time. Somehow it has gotten the reputation for being a Belgian yeast, I don't find anything Belgian or Phenolic about it. It is on the otherhand a very robust, hearty, good all around Ale yeast with English origin. It gets in, gets to work and gets the job done quick with a wide temp range and I never find it to be to picky or finiky...very consistent. It does have lower attenuation, perhaps can be adjusted with recipe and more so a medium flocculation but beers do clear. It leaves a nice malt forward mouthfeel and I do not get any particular esters in the styles I have used it in. I really like it in rich Porters and Stouts, I have also used it in Amber Ales. I think this is one that doesn't get a lot of attention and flies under the radar but I find it to be a great dry yeast and I am going to experiment more with it.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: denny on February 15, 2021, 11:22:59 am
Is there a dry ale yeast that comes ballpark close to 1450 and similarly accentuates malt and mouthfeel?

I haven't used 1450 and I am NOT trying to say Fermentis S-33 compares but, if you are looking for a dry yeast that may give you more of what you are looking for, S-33 could possibly worth a try for you. It has to be the most mislabeled yeast out there and has been for a long time. Somehow it has gotten the reputation for being a Belgian yeast, I don't find anything Belgian or Phenolic about it. It is on the otherhand a very robust, hearty, good all around Ale yeast with English origin. It gets in, gets to work and gets the job done quick with a wide temp range and I never find it to be to picky or finiky...very consistent. It does have lower attenuation, perhaps can be adjusted with recipe and more so a medium flocculation but beers do clear. It leaves a nice malt forward mouthfeel and I do not get any particular esters in the styles I have used it in. I really like it in rich Porters and Stouts, I have also used it in Amber Ales. I think this is one that doesn't get a lot of attention and flies under the radar but I find it to be a great dry yeast and I am going to experiment more with it.

Having used both, I have to say they're not even in the ballpark.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Steve Ruch on February 15, 2021, 11:38:34 am
Bite the bullet and get some 1450. It's the only liquid yeast that I've used in years. I made a Wry Smile IPA with it and was glad I did.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: tommymorris on February 15, 2021, 11:44:24 am
Bite the bullet and get some 1450. It's the only liquid yeast that I've used in years. I made a Wry Smile IPA with it and was glad I did.
I agree. I pitched my 4th generation of a 1450 slurry yesterday. I really like the mouth feel. It does something to the bitterness that accentuates without making it harsh.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 15, 2021, 05:18:15 pm
And don't forget that although it may have started like that, it lived in my fridge and was recultured several times before it went to Wyeast.

Absolutely!  It is to CL-50 what WLP001 is to Chico, cultures drift.  You started with a good culture and the selective pressure you placed on it made Wyeast 1450 what it is today.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 15, 2021, 05:22:58 pm
Wyeast 1450 is a one of kind yeast culture. It is the perfect culture for an American red ale.  I would go as far as to say that it is a the reference culture for American red ale.  However, it is a very versatile yeast strain.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: denny on February 16, 2021, 09:03:17 am
Wyeast 1450 is a one of kind yeast culture. It is the perfect culture for an American red ale.  I would go as far as to say that it is a the reference culture for American red ale.  However, it is a very versatile yeast strain.

Also perfect for IPA, porter, stout...about any American style.  I think I'd avoid it for crisper styles, though, due to the mouthfeel.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 16, 2021, 01:23:29 pm
I have found no substitute for it in my Rye IPAs (yes, that Rye IPA - I make no others these days.)
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 16, 2021, 02:13:46 pm
Also perfect for IPA, porter, stout...about any American style.  I think I'd avoid it for crisper styles, though, due to the mouthfeel.

How would it do for a UK ale along the lines of Fuller's ESB?
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 16, 2021, 02:15:17 pm
Also perfect for IPA, porter, stout...about any American style.  I think I'd avoid it for crisper styles, though, due to the mouthfeel.

How would it do for a UK ale along the lines of Fuller's ESB?

I've been contemplating giving Verdant a try in my next ESB clone attempt.  Should I give 1450 a shot also?
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: denny on February 16, 2021, 02:16:38 pm
Also perfect for IPA, porter, stout...about any American style.  I think I'd avoid it for crisper styles, though, due to the mouthfeel.

How would it do for a UK ale along the lines of Fuller's ESB?

I've been contemplating giving Verdant a try in my next ESB clone attempt.  Should I give 1450 a shot also?

It might work OK.  Not gonna be anything like Verdant,  though, from what I know of it.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 16, 2021, 03:24:26 pm
I have been in contact with the University of Washington team for several months.  After my last correspondence, Maitreya Dunham asked if there were any other strains I would like to see sequenced.  I gave her and Chris Large a couple of Wallerstein Labs ale yeast NRRL accession numbers and an NRRL accession number for Pabst's ale strain (yes, as in Pabst Blue Ribbon).  I figured that those culture are old enough that they may find a closely-related match for BRY-96.  I may ask them to sequence Wyeast 1450.  That way, we will at least know the family in which 1450 groups.  It would be interesting to know because CL-50/Wy1450 is unlike any other yeast strain I have encountered.  Truth be told, I did not capitalize on CL-50 even though I had it in my bank for a few years.  I was into fruity English styles and CL-170 Classic British Ale scratched my itch better.  As Jeff used to say, CL-170 had that lollipop ester profile when young.  It worked with EKG and Willamette better than any other English strain I have tried.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 16, 2021, 04:18:21 pm
Loving this thread

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Descardeci on February 16, 2021, 05:46:10 pm
I have been in contact with the University of Washington team for several months.  After my last correspondence, Maitreya Dunham asked if there were any other strains I would like to see sequenced.  I gave her and Chris Large a couple of Wallerstein Labs ale yeast NRRL accession numbers and an NRRL accession number for Pabst's ale strain (yes, as in Pabst Blue Ribbon).  I figured that those culture are old enough that they may find a closely-related match for BRY-96.  I may ask them to sequence Wyeast 1450.  That way, we will at least know the family in which 1450 groups.  It would be interesting to know because CL-50/Wy1450 is unlike any other yeast strain I have encountered.  Truth be told, I did not capitalize on CL-50 even though I had it in my bank for a few years.  I was into fruity English styles and CL-170 Classic British Ale scratched my itch better.  As Jeff used to say, CL-170 had that lollipop ester profile when young.  It worked with EKG and Willamette better than any other English strain I have tried.

Damn that making thrist, gonna try go make my sister grab for me a 1450 when she leave the EU
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: pete b on February 17, 2021, 06:28:00 am
I have been in contact with the University of Washington team for several months.  After my last correspondence, Maitreya Dunham asked if there were any other strains I would like to see sequenced.  I gave her and Chris Large a couple of Wallerstein Labs ale yeast NRRL accession numbers and an NRRL accession number for Pabst's ale strain (yes, as in Pabst Blue Ribbon).  I figured that those culture are old enough that they may find a closely-related match for BRY-96.  I may ask them to sequence Wyeast 1450.  That way, we will at least know the family in which 1450 groups.  It would be interesting to know because CL-50/Wy1450 is unlike any other yeast strain I have encountered.  Truth be told, I did not capitalize on CL-50 even though I had it in my bank for a few years.  I was into fruity English styles and CL-170 Classic British Ale scratched my itch better.  As Jeff used to say, CL-170 had that lollipop ester profile when young.  It worked with EKG and Willamette better than any other English strain I have tried.
Is there a commercially available version of CL-170. I gather from context the answer is no but I would love to try it if there is.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: erockrph on February 17, 2021, 10:14:01 am
I have been in contact with the University of Washington team for several months.  After my last correspondence, Maitreya Dunham asked if there were any other strains I would like to see sequenced.  I gave her and Chris Large a couple of Wallerstein Labs ale yeast NRRL accession numbers and an NRRL accession number for Pabst's ale strain (yes, as in Pabst Blue Ribbon).  I figured that those culture are old enough that they may find a closely-related match for BRY-96.  I may ask them to sequence Wyeast 1450.  That way, we will at least know the family in which 1450 groups.  It would be interesting to know because CL-50/Wy1450 is unlike any other yeast strain I have encountered.  Truth be told, I did not capitalize on CL-50 even though I had it in my bank for a few years.  I was into fruity English styles and CL-170 Classic British Ale scratched my itch better.  As Jeff used to say, CL-170 had that lollipop ester profile when young.  It worked with EKG and Willamette better than any other English strain I have tried.
Is there a commercially available version of CL-170. I gather from context the answer is no but I would love to try it if there is.
I believe it is White Labs Klassic Ale WLP033, which is a Vault strain. They only release those once they hit a certain number of preorders, and they are currently at 0 of 150 of their threshold. I ordered it one of the last times it was released, but it shipped in the heart of my hiatus a few years ago and I never did what I wanted with it.

I'll place a preorder myself right now. Anyone else who is interested (and willing to pay a premium - the price adds up once you factor in shipping) should all hop on board too so we can get this released sooner rather than later. Go to yeastman.com > Yeast Strains > Vault Preorder

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: pete b on February 17, 2021, 02:10:28 pm
I have been in contact with the University of Washington team for several months.  After my last correspondence, Maitreya Dunham asked if there were any other strains I would like to see sequenced.  I gave her and Chris Large a couple of Wallerstein Labs ale yeast NRRL accession numbers and an NRRL accession number for Pabst's ale strain (yes, as in Pabst Blue Ribbon).  I figured that those culture are old enough that they may find a closely-related match for BRY-96.  I may ask them to sequence Wyeast 1450.  That way, we will at least know the family in which 1450 groups.  It would be interesting to know because CL-50/Wy1450 is unlike any other yeast strain I have encountered.  Truth be told, I did not capitalize on CL-50 even though I had it in my bank for a few years.  I was into fruity English styles and CL-170 Classic British Ale scratched my itch better.  As Jeff used to say, CL-170 had that lollipop ester profile when young.  It worked with EKG and Willamette better than any other English strain I have tried.
Is there a commercially available version of CL-170. I gather from context the answer is no but I would love to try it if there is.
I believe it is White Labs Klassic Ale WLP033, which is a Vault strain. They only release those once they hit a certain number of preorders, and they are currently at 0 of 150 of their threshold. I ordered it one of the last times it was released, but it shipped in the heart of my hiatus a few years ago and I never did what I wanted with it.

I'll place a preorder myself right now. Anyone else who is interested (and willing to pay a premium - the price adds up once you factor in shipping) should all hop on board too so we can get this released sooner rather than later. Go to yeastman.com > Yeast Strains > Vault Preorder

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Thanks Eric, I will try to remeber to pre-order tonight. If I get it I will try to use it for many generations to mak ethe price reasonable. Do you know if its a top cropper?
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 17, 2021, 03:17:24 pm
Thanks Eric, I will try to remeber to pre-order tonight. If I get it I will try to use it for many generations to mak ethe price reasonable. Do you know if its a top cropper?

I did not top crop at that point in time because I used a 6.5-gallon lead acid bottle as a primary, but it did produce a nice head.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 17, 2021, 04:27:23 pm
One thing I will add for those looking for a way to maintain yeast cultures without resorting to plating and slanting is that one can use 1100ml of 10% w/v hopped wort (110g of DME in 1100ml of water with a few magnum or galena pellets) for one's starter.  When pitching this starter at high krausen, one should hold back 100ml in a santized container that allows for off-gasing of CO2. This saved part of culture should be immediately placed in a clean refrigerator.  In order to keep things as aseptic as possible, the transfer of the 100ml of held back starter needs to occur first and the pouring surface of the starter vessel should be wiped with 91% isopropyl alcohol (my state has outlawed the sale of 190 proof/95% Everclear grain alcohol or I would use that) before flaming with a BIC lighter.  The goal is to get the pouring surface to be as close to being as absolutely sterile as possible.  One hundred milliliters of starter at high krausen should contain approximately 20 billion cells.  That is less than a White Labs package, but it will be enough to get the job done as long as one pays attention to detail.  I used to pitch 40ml of 1.020 starter media that was inoculated with a couple of 4mm loops of yeast into a 1L starter, so I know that this method should result in a culture that can be used to start a 1L start for up to around 6 months.  Because our seed culture is cropped from a 10% w/v solution (~ 1.040 S.G.), it should not be stressed like yeast can be after a fermentation. One may be able to push the re-propagation date out to a year with really hardy strain.  However, I would do a two-step starter starting with 250ml of 5% w/v wort (12.5 grams of DME into 250ml of water) that is then pitched into 1L of 10% w/v wort at high krausen.  If one does not have a scale that can measure in tenths of a gram, now is the time to acquire one.

I gained this insight from propagating my sourdough culture.  A lot of books have people feeding the culture on a regular basis, which results in a lot of discard.  My girlfriend put our discard to good use making sourdough pancakes and waffles, but these days I actually have to make discard because it is not part of my sourdough culture maintenance process.  What I am doing is keeping 100g of sourdough culture every time I make bread or pizza dough.  I keep this 100g in the refrigerator and use it to propagate starter for use in making bread or pizza dough.  The 100g of culture comes out of the refrigerator.  Fifty grams of whole wheat flour and fifty grams of unbleached white flour are added to it before adding 100g of chlorine-free water.  When I first started this propagation process, it would take a long time for the culture to double in size.  However, selective pressure has resulted in a culture that more than doubles in size in just a few hours.  I suspect that placing this kind of selective pressure on a brewing yeast culture will eventually lead to a culture that is very hardy in one's brewery.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 17, 2021, 04:47:26 pm
I placed a vault order for WLP033.  It took a long time the last time I ordered the culture for it to hit 150 pre-orders.  I too was on hiatus when it occurred.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: pete b on February 18, 2021, 06:01:25 pm
I placed a vault order too. Come on everyone, we only need 147 more orders!
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 18, 2021, 06:21:36 pm
I placed a vault order too. Come on everyone, we only need 147 more orders!
Did I read correctly 198 dollars?

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: erockrph on February 18, 2021, 06:38:29 pm
I placed a vault order too. Come on everyone, we only need 147 more orders!
Did I read correctly 198 dollars?

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Are you looking at the the pro sized pack, maybe? Make sure you're in the Vault and looking at homebrew sized packs. I believe I was invoiced $6.43

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: pete b on February 18, 2021, 06:40:22 pm
I placed a vault order too. Come on everyone, we only need 147 more orders!
Did I read correctly 198 dollars?

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Are you looking at the the pro sized pack, maybe? Make sure you're in the Vault and looking at homebrew sized packs. I believe I was invoiced $6.43

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Yea, that’s a pro pack. It was $8.98. It’s confusing, their website is bizarre.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 18, 2021, 06:44:12 pm
I'll retry thanks

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 18, 2021, 07:24:20 pm
Figured it out, their website is wonky as hell

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 18, 2021, 08:02:21 pm
Did you guys go to the Yeastman site (https://yeastman.com/)?  I placed an order for WLP033 last night.  Now, we just need to pimp the culture to reach the propagation count.  One thing I discovered is that I created my account several years ago, so some of the information is dated.  Changing my address was not difficult, but I could not change my telephone number.

Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Oiscout on February 19, 2021, 04:46:14 am
I ordered one for myself and one for my brother. Holy crap they need to update this website

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Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Drewch on February 19, 2021, 12:27:18 pm
What has your experience been with how long the lag was between pre-ordering and the yeast shipping?
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 19, 2021, 01:33:50 pm
What has your experience been with how long the lag was between pre-ordering and the yeast shipping?

It depends on how much enthusiasm gets generated for a yeast culture.  Wyeast will usually not propagate a Vault strain until there are 150 pre-orders.  Sometimes one gets lucky and a homebrew shop places a large order for a vault strain.  However, it can take a year or more for a culture to reach 150 pre-orders.  That is why is important to pimp WLP033.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: EnkAMania on February 19, 2021, 01:54:53 pm
Put wlp033 in the search and select the image on the right.  Why they can't have a select option for all options, I do not know.
Title: Re: Dry Yeast offset to Denny's Favorite WY1450?
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 19, 2021, 01:59:12 pm
Put wlp033 in the search and select the image on the right.  Why they can't have a select option for all options, I do not know.

The Yeastman website is very wonky.  To say that it is not user friendly is an understatement. White Labs needs perform a complete overhaul.