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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Oiscout on February 21, 2021, 02:12:57 AM

Title: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 21, 2021, 02:12:57 AM
I think this may be my new favorite style of beer. Cheers!!

Picked up a growler from a local brewery here and it's just fantastic

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: pete b on February 21, 2021, 02:35:22 AM
Also a fan. I can get Von Trappe in cans which is very nice.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 21, 2021, 02:54:12 AM
Fun beer to brew too!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 21, 2021, 04:19:06 AM
Smooth little sweet, got a little spice to it. Damn good beer

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 21, 2021, 12:38:17 PM
Shouldn't have any "spice" ...should be dry with some cracker like malt character and clean/crisp. It's possible thehops may have some herbal like character that are coming across as spicy.

I should clarify that "spice" makes me think of yeast phenolics or actual spices which would be inappropriate for the style,  but obviously that might not be what you mean.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 21, 2021, 02:38:38 PM
It's very mild. It's an apple orchard here that grows their own hops and I have gotten a little spice note from Perle before on a brew. Regardless it was an enjoyable beer

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 21, 2021, 02:51:19 PM
I'm brewing one today with 838.  My go-to recipe is a version of Jamil's original recipe which is dark and malty.  Today I'm brewing a version from a brewery I visited when I went to see my daughter at school in Indiana.  I reached out to the brewer and he gave me the recipe.  It's unconventional but I'm making it just as he gave it to me.  First time brewing in about a month due to the weather.  It's a balmy 24° now and on its way up to 32°.  WHOO!  :P 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 21, 2021, 02:57:19 PM
I'm brewing one today with 838.  My go-to recipe is a version of Jamil's original recipe which is dark and malty.  Today I'm brewing a version from a brewery I visited when I went to see my daughter at school in Indiana.  I reached out to the brewer and he gave me the recipe.  It's unconventional but I'm making it just as he gave it to me.  First time brewing in about a month due to the weather.  It's a balmy 24° now and on its way up to 32°.  WHOO! 
My hose bib was frozen yesterday so I had to go buy water! I feel your pain.

Look forward to the pictures

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: HopDen on February 21, 2021, 03:01:18 PM
I brewed one 3 weeks ago today. Its been cold crashing for 3 days and I'm going to collect yeast and keg today. Samples have tasted good along the way and I can't wait to drink it after a little conditioning.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 21, 2021, 03:44:59 PM
I'm brewing one today with 838.  My go-to recipe is a version of Jamil's original recipe which is dark and malty.  Today I'm brewing a version from a brewery I visited when I went to see my daughter at school in Indiana.  I reached out to the brewer and he gave me the recipe.  It's unconventional but I'm making it just as he gave it to me.  First time brewing in about a month due to the weather.  It's a balmy 24° now and on its way up to 32°.  WHOO! 
My hose bib was frozen yesterday so I had to go buy water! I feel your pain.

Look forward to the pictures
The hose I use for chilling has been brought inside just in case it's frozen.  I know my outdoor water source is okay because I filtered water on Friday.  But it *is* cold right now.  At least I know I'll have super cold ground water for chilling.  :D  Cheers.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 21, 2021, 05:46:23 PM
i think it could end up being a slow-burner style that grows in popularity. its sort of vague in that yes, there is the BJCP "original" vienna lager that has fairly tight numbers and tastes.

but really, it could range from ~4SRM 100% vienna beers, all the way to pretty roasty example with maybe up to 4% chocolate malt even. just keep the crystal down.

the one im making now has no colouring so its about 6 or 7SRM and orange.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 21, 2021, 06:39:38 PM
i think it could end up being a slow-burner style that grows in popularity. its sort of vague in that yes, there is the BJCP "original" vienna lager that has fairly tight numbers and tastes.

but really, it could range from ~4SRM 100% vienna beers, all the way to pretty roasty example with maybe up to 4% chocolate malt even. just keep the crystal down.

the one im making now has no colouring so its about 6 or 7SRM and orange.
So I am calling the one I'm making today "unconventional" because it contains 10% CaraMunich 1, which I would never do.  That said, the beer served at their brewpub was delicious so I'm giving it a try.  Most of these tend to be a combination of pilsner malt, vienna and munich and then Carafa III for color.  The one I made today will be more pale... maybe SRM 8 or 9. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 21, 2021, 07:15:41 PM
i think it could end up being a slow-burner style that grows in popularity. its sort of vague in that yes, there is the BJCP "original" vienna lager that has fairly tight numbers and tastes.

but really, it could range from ~4SRM 100% vienna beers, all the way to pretty roasty example with maybe up to 4% chocolate malt even. just keep the crystal down.

the one im making now has no colouring so its about 6 or 7SRM and orange.
So I am calling the one I'm making today "unconventional" because it contains 10% CaraMunich 1, which I would never do.  That said, the beer served at their brewpub was delicious so I'm giving it a try.  Most of these tend to be a combination of pilsner malt, vienna and munich and then Carafa III for color.  The one I made today will be more pale... maybe SRM 8 or 9.

amber lager vs vienna lager.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 21, 2021, 09:16:42 PM
i think it could end up being a slow-burner style that grows in popularity. its sort of vague in that yes, there is the BJCP "original" vienna lager that has fairly tight numbers and tastes.

but really, it could range from ~4SRM 100% vienna beers, all the way to pretty roasty example with maybe up to 4% chocolate malt even. just keep the crystal down.

the one im making now has no colouring so its about 6 or 7SRM and orange.
So I am calling the one I'm making today "unconventional" because it contains 10% CaraMunich 1, which I would never do.  That said, the beer served at their brewpub was delicious so I'm giving it a try.  Most of these tend to be a combination of pilsner malt, vienna and munich and then Carafa III for color.  The one I made today will be more pale... maybe SRM 8 or 9.

amber lager vs vienna lager.
Maybe.  I have been a little too critical of some recipes that I have seen and I'm trying to get around that.  In this case, I had the beer at the brewpub a number of times and it was very good so I feel good about getting a decent beer from this recipe... but is it a Vienna Lager?  A commercial brewer envisioned a Vienna Lager and this was his recipe.  That doesn't make it right but I feel like the finished beer will be very nice. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on February 22, 2021, 08:53:42 AM
i think it could end up being a slow-burner style that grows in popularity. its sort of vague in that yes, there is the BJCP "original" vienna lager that has fairly tight numbers and tastes.

but really, it could range from ~4SRM 100% vienna beers, all the way to pretty roasty example with maybe up to 4% chocolate malt even. just keep the crystal down.

the one im making now has no colouring so its about 6 or 7SRM and orange.
So I am calling the one I'm making today "unconventional" because it contains 10% CaraMunich 1, which I would never do.  That said, the beer served at their brewpub was delicious so I'm giving it a try.  Most of these tend to be a combination of pilsner malt, vienna and munich and then Carafa III for color.  The one I made today will be more pale... maybe SRM 8 or 9.

amber lager vs vienna lager.
Maybe.  I have been a little too critical of some recipes that I have seen and I'm trying to get around that.  In this case, I had the beer at the brewpub a number of times and it was very good so I feel good about getting a decent beer from this recipe... but is it a Vienna Lager?  A commercial brewer envisioned a Vienna Lager and this was his recipe.  That doesn't make it right but I feel like the finished beer will be very nice.
If you didn't know the recipe, would you call it a Vienna Lager when you taste it? I always find it odd to name a beer based off the recipe rather than the finished product.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 22, 2021, 02:33:30 PM
If you didn't know the recipe, would you call it a Vienna Lager when you taste it? I always find it odd to name a beer based off the recipe rather than the finished product.
That's a good question.  If someone just showed me the recipe I guess I would call it an amber lager.  At some point I got away from using higher percentages of crystal malt in a beer.  I have also seen other Vienna Lager recipes and they're all similar to each other and not really similar to this one.  I consider a pound of CM1 to be a lot of crystal malt and I would not have designed it this way.  But the brewery calls it a Vienna Lager and at the time I did not know the recipe at all so I just ordered it and enjoyed it.  It reminds me that any brewer could take any ingredients and call the finished product anything they want and it doesn't necessarily mean anything. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: chumley on February 22, 2021, 10:36:46 PM
Back in the day, I bought a sack of Durst TurboVienna and brewed a couple of 100% Vienna malt Vienna lagers. i found them a bit one dimensional and kind of insipid.

I much better liked the Mexican Vienna Lagers I made, with 40-50% Pilsner malt, 20-32% Vienna malt, 10-20% flaked corn, 5-10% Caramunich/Caravienne, and a touch of black malt added to the sparge for color. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 22, 2021, 10:53:16 PM
Back in the day, I bought a sack of Durst TurboVienna and brewed a couple of 100% Vienna malt Vienna lagers. i found them a bit one dimensional and kind of insipid.

I much better liked the Mexican Vienna Lagers I made, with 40-50% Pilsner malt, 20-32% Vienna malt, 10-20% flaked corn, 5-10% Caramunich/Caravienne, and a touch of black malt added to the sparge for color.
Yeah, that second description of yours is what I make a lot of... with 940.  Gold lagers, amber lagers and dark lagers made with a nod to Mexican styles and 940.  Those are beers I drool over.  Well, not literally.  :P
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: PORTERHAUS on February 23, 2021, 04:47:55 PM
I'm brewing one today with 838.  My go-to recipe is a version of Jamil's original recipe which is dark and malty.  Today I'm brewing a version from a brewery I visited when I went to see my daughter at school in Indiana.  I reached out to the brewer and he gave me the recipe.  It's unconventional but I'm making it just as he gave it to me.  First time brewing in about a month due to the weather.  It's a balmy 24° now and on its way up to 32°.  WHOO!  :P

What is the Brewery and the beer? I'm from NW Indiana, curious if it's something I know. Also if you don't mind, sharing the recipe? I have easy access to my crawl space and I come to find out recently it's really well suited for lagers this time of year lol. I might have on the list soon.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 23, 2021, 06:14:42 PM
I have a club friend who wins a bunch of awards for his Vienna's.  Several brewery ramp ups, best of shows, etc.. and he uses something close to: Red X (21.7%), Vienna (59.7%), Pils (17.3%), Carafa II (1.3%).  Mittelfruh (1 oz), Magnum (.5 oz) and Tettnang (.4 oz.) at 60', Tettnang (1.25 oz) at 10'.  I didn't run his water adjustments, but he uses tap water with campden and adjusts to style and grist with lactic acid, gypsum and CaCl2. 

I've never made his, but I have a fair number of people who like mine.  It is a simple combination of Vienna (55%), Munich (10%), Pils (30%), Carafa (2.5%) and Acid Malt (2.5%).  Similar hopping and water comes from RO and is treated to grist and style.

Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 23, 2021, 06:48:21 PM
What is the Brewery and the beer? I'm from NW Indiana, curious if it's something I know. Also if you don't mind, sharing the recipe? I have easy access to my crawl space and I come to find out recently it's really well suited for lagers this time of year lol. I might have on the list soon.
I brewed the "Brickyard Vienna Lager" from The Tap Brewery in Bloomington.  What the brewer gave me is basically 50% pilsner, 20% Vienna and 20% Munich 1 plus 10% CaraMunich 1.  Then he called for Perle to bitter to about 22 IBUs (I used Northern Brewer because I had it) and then an ounce of Saaz late in the boil.  I added it at 3 minutes.  I also used 838 because I had it up and running.  When I first saw what amounted to a POUND of CM1 I really didn't like the look of it.  I had originally planned on making the Vienna recipe I normally make but at the last minute I decided to try this one.  Maybe it will be a nice beer and *not* a Vienna, we'll see.  Here's a shot of the commercial version.  The color of my wort was very close to this... possibly a smidge lighter. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/15bkZNLd/brickyard.jpg)
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 23, 2021, 09:37:41 PM
What is the Brewery and the beer? I'm from NW Indiana, curious if it's something I know. Also if you don't mind, sharing the recipe? I have easy access to my crawl space and I come to find out recently it's really well suited for lagers this time of year lol. I might have on the list soon.
I brewed the "Brickyard Vienna Lager" from The Tap Brewery in Bloomington.  What the brewer gave me is basically 50% pilsner, 20% Vienna and 20% Munich 1 plus 10% CaraMunich 1.  Then he called for Perle to bitter to about 22 IBUs (I used Northern Brewer because I had it) and then an ounce of Saaz late in the boil.  I added it at 3 minutes.  I also used 838 because I had it up and running.  When I first saw what amounted to a POUND of CM1 I really didn't like the look of it.  I had originally planned on making the Vienna recipe I normally make but at the last minute I decided to try this one.  Maybe it will be a nice beer and *not* a Vienna, we'll see.  Here's a shot of the commercial version.  The color of my wort was very close to this... possibly a smidge lighter. 

(https://i.postimg.cc/15bkZNLd/brickyard.jpg)

on a vienna lager i would follow this pretty well except no caramunich or maybe 3-4%. i used to brew with smaller amounts of munich regularly, just kind of throwing it in.

i got sensitized to melanoidins since i made a 70% munich, 30% vienna bock beer last year. it was just over the top in a melanoidiny taste, i didnt get in commercial beers. and i get freaked out about adding munich now.

point being, the 95% vienna/5% munich vienna lager i just made has a light element of that. once i get it carbonated i hope i can explain it better.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 23, 2021, 09:38:55 PM
I make a very simple Vienna Lager with a grist of 88.5% Vienna malt and 11.5% Briess 60L Caramel.  I shoot for ~25 IBU's, with ~2/3 of that derived from Magnum boiled for 60 minutes, and ~1/3 derived from Mt. Hood boiled for 20 minutes.  Diamond Lager (or) S-189 dry yeast.  Color is ~12 SRM.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: beersk on February 25, 2021, 09:30:16 PM
Yeah, Vienna Lager is great. I love the Devil's Backbone Vienna. Shame they got bought out by AB Inbev...but their beer is good, so I'm not surprised.
I've got one on tap now that is 99% Vienna and 1% Midnight wheat. It's pretty dark, maybe 11 SRM. I like it. I think the next one I make though I'll maybe do 15 or 20% pilsner to lighten the toasty/bready flavor up a bit or I may drop the midnight wheat addition.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 25, 2021, 10:39:59 PM
Yeah, Vienna Lager is great. I love the Devil's Backbone Vienna. Shame they got bought out by AB Inbev...but their beer is good, so I'm not surprised.
I've got one on tap now that is 99% Vienna and 1% Midnight wheat. It's pretty dark, maybe 11 SRM. I like it. I think the next one I make though I'll maybe do 15 or 20% pilsner to lighten the toasty/bready flavor up a bit or I may drop the midnight wheat addition.
It feels like a wide-open style and there aren't a TON of commercial examples to compare it to although that is changing.  I am seeing more and more Vienna Lagers in craft brew pubs, some good and some not so much.  They really range in color, grain bill and bitterness and there doesn't seem to be one specific yeast that a Vienna should be made with.  838 and 2308 along with Bayern have been used here to make them.  One of my favorite styles for sure. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 25, 2021, 11:22:59 PM
Yeah, Vienna Lager is great. I love the Devil's Backbone Vienna. Shame they got bought out by AB Inbev...but their beer is good, so I'm not surprised.
I've got one on tap now that is 99% Vienna and 1% Midnight wheat. It's pretty dark, maybe 11 SRM. I like it. I think the next one I make though I'll maybe do 15 or 20% pilsner to lighten the toasty/bready flavor up a bit or I may drop the midnight wheat addition.
It feels like a wide-open style and there aren't a TON of commercial examples to compare it to although that is changing.  I am seeing more and more Vienna Lagers in craft brew pubs, some good and some not so much.  They really range in color, grain bill and bitterness and there doesn't seem to be one specific yeast that a Vienna should be made with.  838 and 2308 along with Bayern have been used here to make them.  One of my favorite styles for sure.

I don't consider this a "wide open style" - this is pretty set in stone. Vienna Lager gave rise to the Pilsner (and the Oktoberfest). It's been around for a very long time.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 25, 2021, 11:36:11 PM
I love devils backbone it's what got me trying other breweries vienna lagers

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 26, 2021, 03:21:52 PM
Yeah, Vienna Lager is great. I love the Devil's Backbone Vienna. Shame they got bought out by AB Inbev...but their beer is good, so I'm not surprised.
I've got one on tap now that is 99% Vienna and 1% Midnight wheat. It's pretty dark, maybe 11 SRM. I like it. I think the next one I make though I'll maybe do 15 or 20% pilsner to lighten the toasty/bready flavor up a bit or I may drop the midnight wheat addition.
It feels like a wide-open style and there aren't a TON of commercial examples to compare it to although that is changing.  I am seeing more and more Vienna Lagers in craft brew pubs, some good and some not so much.  They really range in color, grain bill and bitterness and there doesn't seem to be one specific yeast that a Vienna should be made with.  838 and 2308 along with Bayern have been used here to make them.  One of my favorite styles for sure.

I don't consider this a "wide open style" - this is pretty set in stone. Vienna Lager gave rise to the Pilsner (and the Oktoberfest). It's been around for a very long time.
I get that part but as far as brewer's interpretations of it, I see a lot of variances... which I suppose is true of many styles.  The commercial Vienna Lagers I have seen range from very dark and malty to much more pale with some late hoppiness.  The fact that the style disappeared for awhile and then made a bit of a comeback seems like it would allow for some creativity in terms of recipe.  The Vienna I made last weekend is very different from the one I typically make. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2021, 03:32:11 PM
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't consider it a style that "disappeared" necessarily. I think a Viena Lager that is "dark and malty" probably wouldn't do very well in a BJCP sanctioned competition. Just because a bunch of breweries are spinning their versions of the style doesn't mean they are really what anyone would recognize as a Vienna Lager. In fact, what you are speaking of really sounds more like a Bier de Garde than a Vienna Lager.

Vienna Lager never really died, BTW, it just moved to Mexico.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 26, 2021, 03:44:48 PM
Note: the above beer was a two hour boil with the hop schedule starting after the first hour.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 26, 2021, 04:48:52 PM
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't consider it a style that "disappeared" necessarily. I think a Viena Lager that is "dark and malty" probably wouldn't do very well in a BJCP sanctioned competition. Just because a bunch of breweries are spinning their versions of the style doesn't mean they are really what anyone would recognize as a Vienna Lager. In fact, what you are speaking of really sounds more like a Bier de Garde than a Vienna Lager.

Vienna Lager never really died, BTW, it just moved to Mexico.
Like punk rock, it just got old and started home brewing

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 26, 2021, 07:14:00 PM
I think I see what you are getting at but I don't consider it a style that "disappeared" necessarily. I think a Viena Lager that is "dark and malty" probably wouldn't do very well in a BJCP sanctioned competition. Just because a bunch of breweries are spinning their versions of the style doesn't mean they are really what anyone would recognize as a Vienna Lager. In fact, what you are speaking of really sounds more like a Bier de Garde than a Vienna Lager.

Vienna Lager never really died, BTW, it just moved to Mexico.
I agree... a brewer may call it a Vienna Lager because it contains Vienna malt.  True Vienna Lager was a really big thing in central Europe and it did sort of disappear from there when Pilsner got popular.  I love that German and Austrian brewers brought the style to Mexico and it still thrives today.  I am down with Negra Modelo, Dos Equis Amber, Indio, Bohemia Dark, etc.  I like that style.  But when I went to Vienna in search of real Vienna Lager, many people had no idea what I was talking about.  I would ask about it and they would say, "Oh yes, we have a lot of lager here in Vienna!"... "No, Vienna Lager.  Do you know where I could get some?" and they would look at me funny.  I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good.  I assume that craft brewers helped to bring it back at least in some part and as homebrewers we can always tilt the recipe the way we like or make someone else's recipe which is always fun. 

Salm Brau Vienna...

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp8R4F7W/salm-brau-vienna.jpg)
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 26, 2021, 09:29:35 PM
Note: the above beer was a two hour boil with the hop schedule starting after the first hour.


craft amber lager.

though im glad i can see a recipe of yours. thats a low IBU? (guesstimating) 15 IBU?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2021, 09:32:17 PM
I have never ben to Vienna so I shall concede!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 26, 2021, 09:46:11 PM
ottakringer, a brewery in vienna makes a "wiener original" lager that is my ideal traditional vienna. its tasteful but designed for a session. dry but not bitter, no corniness at all.

@villagetaphouse it probably has a particular name like "dark vienna" or "dark lager"

im checking https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/austbrew.htm#1516

it looks like there is a tendency to call vienna lagers as "______ rot" ein rotes lagerbier. but that also doesnt come up with an adequate answer on google.

this is a good line of inquiry.. ?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 26, 2021, 10:05:14 PM
ottakringer, a brewery in vienna makes a "wiener original" lager that is my ideal traditional vienna. its tasteful but designed for a session. dry but not bitter, no corniness at all.

@villagetaphouse it probably has a particular name like "dark vienna" or "dark lager"

im checking https://www.europeanbeerguide.net/austbrew.htm#1516

it looks like there is a tendency to call vienna lagers as "______ rot" ein rotes lagerbier. but that also doesnt come up with an adequate answer on google.

this is a good line of inquiry.. ?
Ottakringer makes some very good beer.  I never found their version of a Vienna Lager but their helles and their "Goldfassl" was very good.  The recipe I used originally for Vienna Lager (from Jamil Z.) was dark and malty and for my tastes it was a little too close to a dunkel.  I was looking for a way to make them a little more distinct from each other.  Using a different yeast was a good start but at some point I thought I would cut back on the carafa in the Vienna and just turn up the hops slightly.  The hop schedule is almost the same... bitter to 20 IBUs or so and add an ounce of something noble for 10 minutes.  It's fun to dive into the history of it and also dissect the various ways to make it. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 26, 2021, 10:57:21 PM
I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good. 

It looks delicious.  What would you guess it's color to be on either the SRM or EBC scale?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 26, 2021, 11:03:27 PM
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2021, 11:29:48 PM
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

Yeah anyone who has brewed a 100% Vienna basemalt beer will notice quickly how pale it is. The "Pilsner" book by Tom Acitelli is excellent and describes how pilsner evolved from the smokeless kilns used in England and the lager yeast smuggled across the German border. Great book.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 26, 2021, 11:31:51 PM
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

I think Vienna Lager is similar in SRM to a Fest Bier, or even lighter. Darker than your standard Pils. I just brewed 10 gallons, with all Vienna malt. It is a nice golden color, a darker gold. Not red.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on February 27, 2021, 08:00:41 AM
Great Lakes Brewing Company's 'Eliot Ness' Lager has won multiple awards in the 'Vienna Lager' category, and I'd guess its SRM color at about 14.  But at some juncture Great Lakes stopped referring to it as a Vienna Lager, and they now label it as merely an Amber Lager.  They have also reduced the IBU's from 35 to 27. And to my knowledge it is no longer raking in awards. The last few bottled samples of it that I've tried have been nothing to write home about.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 27, 2021, 02:12:10 PM
I found a place called Salm Brau in Vienna that brewed their own beer and they had a true Vienna Lager.  It was dark and malty and very good. 

It looks delicious.  What would you guess it's color to be on either the SRM or EBC scale?
That one looks to be around 15 SRM give or take.  The Jamil recipe looks very similar to that... a good amount of Carafa Special III.  All of this talk is what I was referring to originally:  The style seems wide open.  Not that it was meant to be that way but numerous commercial brewers and plenty of homebrewers have gone off in various directions with this style (which applies to other styles too, I get that part).  When I mentioned earlier that it disappeared for a while, I am talking about right around the turn of the century... 1900 to about 1915.  After being really popular, it fell out of favor for a very long time to the point that it was not seen in central Europe at all.  It took a long time to be resurrected and craft brewers may be responsible for that.  This one I brewed last week is probably more like SRM 7-8.  If I think it needs a small shot of Carafa III (maybe a half-ounce in 5 gallons?) I can always do that the next time.  Cheers Beerheads.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 27, 2021, 02:25:35 PM
Great Lakes Brewing Company's 'Eliot Ness' Lager has won multiple awards in the 'Vienna Lager' category, and I'd guess its SRM color at about 14.  But at some juncture Great Lakes stopped referring to it as a Vienna Lager, and they now label it as merely an Amber Lager.  They have also reduced the IBU's from 35 to 27. And to my knowledge it is no longer raking in awards. The last few bottled samples of it that I've tried have been nothing to write home about.
It's been a long time since I had any of their beer, I wasn't impressed but I'm willing to give them a try again

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: roger on February 27, 2021, 03:27:20 PM
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

According to the booklet titled "Vienna Marzen Oktoberfest" by George & Laurie Fix from 1991, the color range for Dreher's Vienna was estimated at 8-10L. One of his brewers brought the style to Mexico/Texas and increased the color to 10-12L by using a small amount of black malt. They compared the color of Bass Ale from 1991, which they listed at 10L.

I was in Vienna in 2010, and could not find an example of any non-Heineken beer near our hotel. Only there two nights, with a lot to see, so I didn't have a lot of time to venture out on my own. This is a historically wine-drinking area, which held me over until I got to Munich. ;)

What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Andy Farke on February 27, 2021, 03:32:45 PM
I am currently reading a book on Vienna by Andreas Krennmair who is Austrian.  Apparently, the Vienna Anton Dreher brewed was not a dark beer.  It was not a pale as Pilsner, but Anton Dreher is credited with bringing English smokeless kilning technology to Austria and Germany.  After reading this book, I believe that the BJCP SRM range is way off of the mark.

Krennmair's books are excellent! Highly recommended for anyone really wanting to delve into the origins of the style, and they're pretty readable, too.

I riffed off the historical Vienna lager recipe from the book recently, and enjoyed the 100% Vienna malt brew. I used Weyermann's Vienna malt, as I've found it to be consistently flavorful and enjoyable to my palate.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 27, 2021, 03:43:12 PM
The BJCP style guide for Vienna needs to be overhauled.  It is based on Negra Modelo, but that beer is closer to Munich Dunkel in color.  One should not have to add black malt to a Vienna grist like I did to meet the SRM requirement for Vienna.  Technically, it should be possible to brew a Vienna with 100% Vienna malt and have it be within style.
Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on February 27, 2021, 04:09:52 PM
I think too much emphasis is put on the American home brewers style guidelines. I don’t think it’s meant to box home brewers in as much as it has. It’s more important to make something that tastes good, not something that matches a certain number.

I agree 100% Vienna malt (~3-4 SRM) should at least be the starting color for a Vienna Lager. Even Denny’s favorite Mecca Grade’s Vanora (which is a pretty dark Vienna style malt at 7 SRM) doesn’t meet the color threshold at 100% without exceeding the OG ceiling without utilizing other darkening techniques (boil down 1st runnings, etc).


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on February 27, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
I think too much emphasis is put on the American home brewers style guidelines. I don’t think it’s meant to box home brewers in as much as it has. It’s more important to make something that tastes good, not something that matches a certain number.

I agree 100% Vienna malt (~3-4 SRM) should at least be the starting color for a Vienna Lager. Even Denny’s favorite Mecca Grade’s Vanora (which is a pretty dark Vienna style malt at 7 SRM) doesn’t meet the color threshold at 100% without exceeding the OG ceiling without utilizing other darkening techniques (boil down 1st runnings, etc).


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This is one of the pitfalls of brewing software, too. I've gotten better about this over the years, but it's easy to fall into the trap of checking whether the SRM checkmark is lit up when plugging in a recipe into your software. And just about all the German Lagers have SRM values that are much higher than they taste. Vienna, Märzen, Dunkel, and sometimes even Pilsner all come out lighter than the range I see listed without color adjustment.

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 27, 2021, 08:11:54 PM
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now. 
Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on February 27, 2021, 09:10:36 PM
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now.
+1 They say it’s a Dunkel on their website:

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210227/e0dc087c38c8439bf36d417afe16465d.jpg)
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 27, 2021, 09:14:08 PM
There was a Negra Modelo ad with Rick Bayless in it and in the ad he called the beer a "Munich-Dunkel Style Lager".  Originally I thought they referred to it as a Vienna Lager.  I believe Modelo refers to Victoria as a Vienna Lager now.

Destined to become an extinct style, it took some political upheaval halfway across the world to serendipitously revive the Vienna style in a newly-imagined, adjunct-laden take on the style commonly known as Mexican lager.

By the late 19th century, immigration to the United States had grown significantly with Europeans drawn by the freedoms and opportunities offered in the New World. The decline of the Austrian empire and its rebirth as a dual monarchy consisting of co-equal Austrian and Hungarian states in 1867 contributed to an exodus of people from the region. The French Intervention in Mexico resulted in the Archduke of Austria, Ferdinand Maximilian Josef Habsburg, being installed as emperor and opened a second front of Austrian immigrants to Central America.

Some of those leaving Austria were the very brewers that contributed to the history of Vienna-style beers. Many settled in the American Southwest and Mexico looking to employ their brewing traditions in an area devoid of an established brewing culture as found in the more developed areas of the United States East Coast. These immigrant brewers attempted to recreate their beloved beer styles in this new, warmer climate but without much success. Lacking an abundance of natural ice, especially in the Southwest United States, lager beer quality suffered until refrigeration became more widespread in the 1880s.

Santiago Graf, an immigrant brewer, founded a brewery in the hills of Toluca, Mexico. Realizing the futility of employing lager brewing practices, he settled on creating beers with top fermenting ale yeast. This process resulted in the first quality beers produced in the southwest. Eventually, Graf invested in an absorption ice machine that he imported from Germany to focus on creating lagers, including a reinterpretation of the Vienna style, in the New World.

Much like Anton Dreher, Graf believed in using the finest quality ingredients in the production of his beers. Forgoing American hops due to their reputation for harsh flavors, he imported his hops and malts from Europe. His use of high-quality ingredients coupled with modern refrigeration yielded lagers that Mexico had not experienced before and they quickly became popular.

Graf is credited with incorporating a small amount of black malt in his Vienna lagers, resulting in a version on the darker end of the style’s spectrum. Modern day Mexican versions have become lighter and sweeter due to the increased use of adjuncts in the grist. It is likely adjunct usage was incorporated into these modern versions as both a cost savings and method to increase drinkability.

Popular Mexican examples include Negra Modelo Lager, Victoria, and Dos Equis Amber.

https://byo.com/article/vienna-lager-brewing-the-austrian-beer-style-rescued-by-mexico/
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on February 27, 2021, 09:29:33 PM
When Euro brewers got to Mexico they started making the beers that were popular in central Europe... pilsner and Vienna Lager.  But a proper pilsner is hopped pretty high and the hops did not agree with the spicy cuisines of Mexico so the brewers tempered the hops a bit.  The relatively low hopping rate of the Vienna was a perfect complement to Mexico's food and that's a reason why it has persevered there.  It works well with food.  Also, the adjuncts (corn generally... it's cheap and locally available) lend a smidge of sweetness to the beer which also works nicely with chiles and other spicy foods. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 27, 2021, 11:31:39 PM
+1 on Andreas Krennmair - Denny and Drew interviewed him a couple years back and I bought his Historic and German Beers for the Homebrewer book based on that interview (I am pretty sure it was their interview - but it was a while back)....
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on February 28, 2021, 01:35:26 AM
I'm taking another stab at a lager. I absolutely love this style

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 28, 2021, 03:41:15 AM
ok, now we're really getting somewhere here.

yes, i heard an hour long interview with andreas krennmeier on the history of beer in vienna and anton dreher. yup, vienna was historically a wine drinking region (cider too? i cant recall). very interesting story at a time of the beginning of mass use of thermometres, hydrometres, understanding yeast etc.

yup, the ottakringer vienna is something enjoyable to sip, yet very sessionable. SRM is between 7 to 10 i'd say.

vienna malt might be something to think about? sacc - in the book did they mention the origin of it?

it's entirely possible that vienna lagers could have been 100% vienna malt.

Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 28, 2021, 12:57:17 PM
ok, now we're really getting somewhere here.

yes, i heard an hour long interview with andreas krennmeier on the history of beer in vienna and anton dreher. yup, vienna was historically a wine drinking region (cider too? i cant recall). very interesting story at a time of the beginning of mass use of thermometres, hydrometres, understanding yeast etc.

yup, the ottakringer vienna is something enjoyable to sip, yet very sessionable. SRM is between 7 to 10 i'd say.

vienna malt might be something to think about? sacc - in the book did they mention the origin of it?

it's entirely possible that vienna lagers could have been 100% vienna malt.

A nice, easy drinking, very sessionable Vienna Lager is on tap in my bar. Got the basic recipe when reading about Vienna Malt, where they said it is acceptable to use 100% in the grain bill. So that’s what I did. The simplicity is what makes this a great beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: roger on February 28, 2021, 01:05:49 PM
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 28, 2021, 02:34:30 PM
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 28, 2021, 02:43:51 PM
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on February 28, 2021, 02:46:37 PM
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!

I can cook and I like where I live. Plus, I'm pickier than most.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on February 28, 2021, 04:05:28 PM
What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 28, 2021, 04:50:59 PM
It seems to me that since Modelo was bought in 2016, that there have been some changes in their beers. IDK, but it seems closer to a Dunkel than a Vienna.

It's also too sweet now days. I used to really enjoy it but not any more. If I'm at a Mexican Restaurant I'll go for the Dos Equis if it's on draft. Not great, but Hey! The Mexican food around here sucks so bad the Dos Equis taste like a golden dram ...

If the Mexican food sucks, you are living in the wrong state!

I can cook and I like where I live. Plus, I'm pickier than most.

I can cook, and pride myself on being an amateur chef! I like where we live, plus we are very picky. And...we have great Tex-Mex Restaurants all over the place! Sometimes we will slip South-Of-The-Border for some good Mexican. But when in Nuevo Progresso, I drink Margaritas!

If beer is required when in Progresso, Modelo Especial is the beverage of choice.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on February 28, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.

i was reading a bit more, and i think i found that anton dreher wanted to replicate english malt by learning about their kilning process - for one coal(coke?) fired ovens. i believe it said that essentially he created vienna malt.

learning about the creation of vienna lager was fascinating, as it shows an early 1800s europe in which beer from the united kingdom is by far the KING for true commercial quality and consistency beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on February 28, 2021, 07:49:05 PM
This may be over kill, but here is another good article:

Grain Bill:
The main ingredient of any good example of Vienna malt is, of course Vienna malt. Depending on whom you ask, a Vienna Lager recipe in its simplest and, some may consider best form, would be 100% Vienna malt. This malt brings the rich toasty slightly nutty malt aspect.

https://learn.kegerator.com/vienna-lager/
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on February 28, 2021, 09:58:03 PM
What is interesting to me about Dreher, is he is credited with bringing new processes, techniques, and a new beer "style" to Austria. He's also credited with created vienna malt. In fairness, his life-long friend and friendly competitor, Gabriel Sedimayr did something similarly successful to a failing brewery in Munich named Spaten. I wonder what these guys would have thought if someone told them their beers do not meet a guideline like the BJCP? I'm not trying to start a conversation on that subject, just personally think its interesting.

Anton Dreher receives more credit due the shear size of his business holdings.

i was reading a bit more, and i think i found that anton dreher wanted to replicate english malt by learning about their kilning process - for one coal(coke?) fired ovens. i believe it said that essentially he created vienna malt.

learning about the creation of vienna lager was fascinating, as it shows an early 1800s europe in which beer from the united kingdom is by far the KING for true commercial quality and consistency beer.
Interesting. This explains why Vienna malt tastes kinda close to English Pale Ale malt to me.

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: beersk on March 01, 2021, 02:48:24 AM
Good thread, fellas! Enjoyed the discussion so far. I am going to drop any debittered black malt addition in my future Vienna lagers. I currently have a sack of Munton's Vienna malt, which was gifted to me by a homebrewer friend, and it's not really what you'd expect from a good authentic continental Vienna malt. It's unfortunate, but it's gotta get used.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 01, 2021, 01:57:50 PM
I’ve been suffering from the wide help misconception that a Vienna Lager was a dark, or a darker beer. Much like a Negro Modelo. But after reading more on the actual history, and learning about the malt, and brewing 10 gallons with 100% Vienna Malt, my eyes (and taste buds) have been opened.

Again, this is one of the easiest drinking, smooth lagers that I have made. 5.4% ABV.

Very well balanced, with Tettnanger hops, and W-34/70 yeast. This beer won’t last long!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 01, 2021, 02:34:17 PM
An article I read recently mentioned that Dreher and Sedlmayer traveled to England sometime in the 1830s.  Dreher had inherited a brewery from a family member at a young age.  Their trip to England was focused around a new way that the British were malting the grain... a way that did not use fire.  Prior to this, malted barley was malted and kilned using fire which gave most beer a smoky taste.  The British found a way around that and Dreher and Sedlmayer wanted to see this and attempt to duplicate it at home... Sedlmayer in Munich, Dreher in Vienna.  I have also heard that one reason that pilsner [eventually] unseated Vienna Lager as the more popular beer was because pilsner was pale-colored which was very new in those days.  That alone tells me that Dreher's first Vienna Lagers had at least SOME amount of color and were not just 100% Vienna malt.  If Vienna Malt is around 5°L, that would make a very pale beer and from everything I have seen, Dreher's beer looked to at least be in the 8-10 SRM range and many modern recipes for Vienna Lager emulate that.  I've seen a wide range of colors on Vienna Lagers but nothing less that about 7-8 SRM.  I agree... this is a good thread and fascinating primarily because I like the style. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on March 01, 2021, 02:35:22 PM
Good thread, fellas! Enjoyed the discussion so far. I am going to drop any debittered black malt addition in my future Vienna lagers. I currently have a sack of Munton's Vienna malt, which was gifted to me by a homebrewer friend, and it's not really what you'd expect from a good authentic continental Vienna malt. It's unfortunate, but it's gotta get used.
I've been using up to 3 pounds of vienna in ky "hefes" instead of pilsner if I have it on hand

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 01, 2021, 03:18:51 PM
.....Dreher's first Vienna Lagers had at least SOME amount of color and were not just 100% Vienna malt.  If Vienna Malt is around 5°L, that would make a very pale beer and from everything I have seen, Dreher's beer looked to at least be in the 8-10 SRM range and many modern recipes for Vienna Lager emulate that.  I've seen a wide range of colors on Vienna Lagers but nothing less that about 7-8 SRM.

I want to see some info on the grain bill for the very first Vienna Lagers, that would show us what they would have brewed. My reading shows that 100% of the grain is acceptable (and desired) for the style. This info was posted here previously. No big deal, as we are free (for now) to brew what we want, how we want, when we want!

My effort was not to replicate an SRM color, but to produce a easy drinkable beer. My Vienna has an SRM of 6 or 7. Darker than a Pils, but not what any of us would consider a dark beer.

I did find this:

Back in Vienna...

Now at the helm of the Klein-Schwechat Brewery, Anton continued to experiment with the English way of kilning and created a slightly caramelised amber malt that he christened Vienna Malt. He combined that with traditional German lager yeast and in 1841 the Vienna Lager was born.

For about 60 years the Vienna Lager was popular, and gold-medal-winning, in Austria and other parts of Europe. Then it mysteriously disappeared completely after World War I. No one really knows why.


So during the mid 1800's perhaps Vienna Malt was kilned to a darker degree than modern examples?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 01, 2021, 03:51:44 PM
Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY (https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/geburtstagsparty-traditional-vienna/) is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 01, 2021, 05:46:47 PM
Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY (https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/geburtstagsparty-traditional-vienna/) is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger.

This makes sense. I may add just a touch of Carafa next time.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: denny on March 01, 2021, 05:52:54 PM
Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 01, 2021, 06:47:02 PM
Very tricky to tell because there is so much information.  THIS GUY (https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/geburtstagsparty-traditional-vienna/) is a fan of Vienna Lager and the picture looks a lot like I would expect a Vienna Lager to look like.  He is suggesting that a Vienna Lager can be mostly Vienna Malt but then "just enough of roasted malt to get the color right".  That could be Carafa... I see it mentioned in a number of recipes.  He also suggests that Vienna Malt can range from 2.5L to 7L (I almost always see it as 5L) and remember that in those days we could be talking about a decoction and we could also see a brewhouse where oxidation could play a part and oxidation can darken the color of the wort as can a decoction.  Just as anything else, a lot of variables in this style.  Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a beer with 100% Vienna Malt.  I have seen a number of homebrewers do this and I threaten to try it myself but never pull the trigger.

but why would they feel a need to darken it in the 1800s? what is the point?

i'll be posting pics of my 95% vienna 5% munich malt lager soon. the colour so far is an orange around 5 SRM. from colour/tint alone you would not confuse this with a pilsner beer that had black malt added to reach 5 SRM
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on March 01, 2021, 06:51:08 PM
I have to say I had a Pilsner on deck as my next brew, but I might just have to call an audible and swap out the pilsner malt for 100% Vienna after this discussion. It will probably be hitting its prime right around May 5th if I brew it in the next week or two.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 01, 2021, 07:18:17 PM
but why would they feel a need to darken it in the 1800s? what is the point?

i'll be posting pics of my 95% vienna 5% munich malt lager soon. the colour so far is an orange around 5 SRM. from colour/tint alone you would not confuse this with a pilsner beer that had black malt added to reach 5 SRM
It may not be that they felt a need to darken it as much as it could be that Vienna Malt (Dreher's Vienna Malt) may have been darker in those days plus the possibility of decoction and maybe oxidation darkening the wort.  Also, pH was not as well understood in those days but brewers understood that when darker malts were used, the beers came out better (the opposite was the issue Josef Grol was having making pale beers until he found the soft water of Plzen).  IIRC, stout was made in Ireland because it's the only way that Irish brewers could brew a palatable beer.  They may not have known it at the time but the dark malt was lowering the pH into a more desirable zone.  Dreher may have had the same issues and knew that darker malts would produce a better beer.  Not sure what Vienna water was/is like but it may have required darker malts to produce smooth beer in the absence of acids/acid malt, etc.  A lot of things you read is that prior to Pilsner Urquell, all beers were dark or darkish. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on March 01, 2021, 08:58:48 PM
I'm kinda surprised a lot of you haven't brewed a 100% Vienna lager before. I thought is was as popular as Kölsch and some other styles. If you like Vienna malt try it as your basemalt in IPA sometime.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 01, 2021, 09:28:25 PM
Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer

I have 3 of his books, "World Guide To Beer", "Ultimate Beer", and "Beer Companion".

Plus "The Complete Encyclopedia Of Beer", by B. Verhoef.

Time to go to my library and do some reading!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: denny on March 01, 2021, 09:29:15 PM
Check out what Michael Jackson has to say about Vienna Lager in New World Guide to Beer

I have 3 of his books, "World Guide To Beer", "Ultimate Beer", and "Beer Companion".

Plus "The Complete Encyclopedia Of Beer", by B. Verhoef.

Time to go to my library and do some reading!

Great!  I don't know how much changed between World Guide and New World Guide,
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 12:07:18 AM
Just so you know what 100% Ireks Vienna Malt looks like...

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/005342726106/media/1693076431044879/medium/1614643540/enhance)
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 02, 2021, 12:35:48 AM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 12:53:21 AM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10 EBC.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Drewch on March 02, 2021, 01:38:14 AM
I want to see some info on the grain bill for the very first Vienna Lagers, that would show us what they would have brewed.

Krennmair (2018) gives a very simple reconstructed recipe (c. 1870) of 100% Vienna Malt for an OG of 1.053 resulting in a wort of 4.3 SRM.  He doesn't otherwise address color except to say, "The pale malt gave an amber-coloured wort which was clearly lighter than brown malts at that time..."
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 02, 2021, 02:21:11 AM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10 L.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on March 02, 2021, 03:09:51 AM
If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 03:45:22 AM
If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm

   

 

Wort Colour (EBC units)
   
IREKS Pilsner Malt    

2.5 - 5
   Specification
 
   
IREKS Pale Ale Malt    

5 - 7
   Specification
   
IREKS Vienna Malt    

8 - 10
   Specification
 
   
IREKS Munich Malt    

18 - 22
   Specification

   
IREKS Pilsner Malt Winter    

3 - 5
   Specification

 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 02, 2021, 03:48:40 AM
If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm
That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 03:57:10 AM
If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm
That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement.

Dude #1 to Dude #2 - That is exactly why it was posted.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 04:04:04 AM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 02, 2021, 04:04:34 AM
If Vienna Malt is kilned to 8-10L what makes it different from Munich malt?

That info came from Ireks website. Munich is 18-22L.

http://www.ireks-malz.de/Base-malts.htm
That's definitely out of bounds for Euro Vienna or Munich.  Vienna is typically 5L, Munich 1 is 6-8L and Munich 2 is usually 8-10 (or 11)L.  I'm talking Weyermann, Avangard, Best Malz, etc.  Munich malt is base malt that can be used for 100% of the grist and I would not do that with a malt that was 18-22L, no sir. 

EDIT:  Dude.  It says EBC above that column in your link.  Different measurement.

Dude #1 to Dude #2 - That is exactly why it was posted.
But your post says Munich is 18-22L.  It's 18-22 EBC. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Silver_Is_Money on March 02, 2021, 08:43:08 AM
To my eyes, Pilsner Urquell is about 5.5 SRM.  If this beer caused a revolution which shocked the world as the worlds first light Lager, and Vienna Lager preceded it by several decades, then whatever color Vienna Lager initially was, it was  likely to be appreciably darker than 5.5 SRM.

5.5 SRM is about 10.8 EBC and 4.6 Lovibond.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: majorvices on March 02, 2021, 12:29:56 PM
I probably never used anything besides Best and Weyermann Vienna Malts - but some of the Vienna malts ya'll are talking about are kilned more toward Weyermann and Best Munich malts
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 02, 2021, 02:43:21 PM
I probably never used anything besides Best and Weyermann Vienna Malts - but some of the Vienna malts ya'll are talking about are kilned more toward Weyermann and Best Munich malts

Many specs on malt are driven by variety. There are several MBAA podcasts where Joe Hedrich (SP) is interviewed. In one he talks about Kohlbach Index, and how for one NA variety it was not over modified at 50, that was what it had to be to work for that malt variety.

I mentioned the Mecca Grade Vienna. They use Full Pint as their variety. They may go darker for that malt, or their process, or to get the flavor they want.

I found this site this morning. These days are in EBC (the Crisp Pale Ale looks to be Lovibond). The conversion is
Lovibond=(EBC+1.2)/2.65 if anyone hasn't run across that yet. A Vienna lager made with Ireks or Best Vienna malt should be darker than one made with Weyermann Vienna malt. It would be a fun experiment, or just mash a small quantity of each and evaluate the color.

https://www.geterbrewed.com/malt-substitution-guide/
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 02, 2021, 02:54:59 PM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: narvin on March 02, 2021, 03:30:37 PM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...

It could be the lighting but it looks closer to Sierra Nevada Pale Ale which I put (based on imprecise homebrew calculations) at maybe 6-7 SRM.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 05:31:57 PM
Which maltster?

Weyermann Vienna = 3.5L
Mecca Grade Vienna =6L

The resulting beer would be different.

Ireks - 8 to 10.

That’s EBC. Website says 3.5 - 4.2L

Correct. Note the color of the beer pictured above. What SRM would you give that?

Kind of hard to tell from the picture. Whatever SRM comes from Vienna Malt that is 3.5 - 4.2L...

It could be the lighting but it looks closer to Sierra Nevada Pale Ale which I put (based on imprecise homebrew calculations) at maybe 6-7 SRM.

I would guess 7 SRM is the ballpark for this beer. The flash actually washed the color out a bit.

Here is some good info...and I'm sure most of you knew this already -

European Beer Color (EBC)

The EBC method (European Beer Color) is the European equivalent standard to the SRM scale in Europe. Both SRM and EBC use very similar laboratory techniques to measure the beer color. Because of this similarity, SRM and EBC have an exact linear relationship to their values. In fact, the EBC value for a given grain is always a little less than double the SRM value.

In practice the EBC color is approximately 1.97 times the SRM color.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 02, 2021, 05:48:21 PM
I have always regarded the numerics as less helpful than a color descriptor range.  I appreciate that you can theoretically dial down to a specific number that is scientifically subject to analysis and result, but I always go back to amber (light, medium or dark), copper (same gradient), brown (same gradient), because that gives me a reference that I don't have to go to a conversion scale to appreciate. 

And as to 100% Vienna - I have done it and it can be quite good, but it can be fairly one-dimensional, too.  I like a little Munich in mine....

Cheers to an interesting discussion.  Vienna will have to be worked into my brewing schedule now.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 06:18:03 PM
I have always regarded the numerics as less helpful than a color descriptor range.  I appreciate that you can theoretically dial down to a specific number that is scientifically subject to analysis and result, but I always go back to amber (light, medium or dark), copper (same gradient), brown (same gradient), because that gives me a reference that I don't have to go to a conversion scale to appreciate. 

And as to 100% Vienna - I have done it and it can be quite good, but it can be fairly one-dimensional, too.  I like a little Munich in mine....

Cheers to an interesting discussion.  Vienna will have to be worked into my brewing schedule now.

Yes, I agree. My next go at this will incorporate some Munich. This beer is actually quite good. Extremely clean, clear, with a hint of the Tettnang hops. The W-34/70 notes come through as well.

In other words, you might describe this as one dimensional. But I actually like one dimensional beers.

A friend gave me a Stout the other day. Very heavy vanilla, chocolate and coconut flavors. Multi-dimensional. Not my pint of beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on March 02, 2021, 06:21:26 PM
IIRC ireks used to make some pretty popular LME?

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 02, 2021, 06:22:09 PM
I looked up some Vienna Lager pics from the past few years.  The color varies but some of that was intentional as I was trying to differentiate between my Vienna and my Dunkel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMCMgLVD/vienna-lager-2019.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NM2MjQcw/vienna2017-S189.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dVWtRhQY/Vienna-Lager-2019.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZc3cjNV/viennalager2017.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBrJzK7V/viennalager2017b.jpg)

I think all of these had some amount of carafa special III in them.  I have one in the fermenter now that used a pound of CaraMunich 1 (mentioned earlier) and it will be more pale but still with some amount of color making it darker than SRM 5 or so.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 06:26:02 PM
I looked up some Vienna Lager pics from the past few years.  The color varies but some of that was intentional as I was trying to differentiate between my Vienna and my Dunkel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMCMgLVD/vienna-lager-2019.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NM2MjQcw/vienna2017-S189.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dVWtRhQY/Vienna-Lager-2019.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZc3cjNV/viennalager2017.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBrJzK7V/viennalager2017b.jpg)

I think all of these had some amount of carafa special III in them.  I have one in the fermenter now that used a pound of CaraMunich 1 (mentioned earlier) and it will be more pale but still with some amount of color making it darker than SRM 5 or so.

That first photo looks real close to mine on tap now. Great looking beers. Nice back yard!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 02, 2021, 06:27:48 PM
More good info:

Vienna Malt

The key ingredient in a Vienna-style lager is Vienna malt. This should make up the majority — if not the entirety — of your grain bill. Vienna malt is a 2-row base malt that is darker than most pale malts, but lighter than Munich malt. Pilsner malts, and generic 2-row pale malts, usually fall around 1.5–2 degrees Lovibond (°L). English pale ale malts usually rate around 3 °L. Vienna malt is typically rated around 3–6 °L, while light Munich malts rate from 8–12 °L and dark Munich falls around 20 °L. Homebrewers tend to think of Vienna as a extra-light version of Munich malt.

A beer made from all Vienna malt has a malty character, with a slight biscuity or nutty aspect, but that description really doesn’t do it justice. Just as Munich malt has a distinctive character that you can recognize once you’ve brewed with it, so does Vienna. Vienna and Munich have a similar malty/grainy flavor, but you can tell them apart without much trouble if you’ve brewed with them a couple times. Weyermann, Durst and Briess make Vienna malts that are available to homebrewers. Weyermann also makes a Vienna malt extract, called Vienna Red, that is made with Vienna malt, Pilsner malt and melanoidin malt.

Recipe Formulation

When formulating your Vienna recipe, keep it simple. Although I have outlined a few options to accent the Vienna malt, all are optional. And personally, I don’t think Vienna lagers benefit from adding a bit of this and pinch of that for complexity — start with a base of Vienna malt and maybe add one or at most two other grains to tweak the flavor.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 02, 2021, 06:46:26 PM
I have always considered the Vienna Lager style to be a contrast to the Marzen style - being less malty, more bitter, more crisp, lower ABV and easier drinking as a result.  The BJCP guidelines state it better than I can:

"Style Comparison: Lighter malt character, slightly less body,
and slightly more bitter in the balance than a Märzen, yet with
many of the same malt-derived flavors. The malt character is
similar to a Märzen, but less intense and more balanced. Lower
in alcohol than Märzen or Festbier. Less rich, less malty and
less hop-centered compared to Czech Amber Lager."

Definitely a style that should be here to stay.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: denny on March 02, 2021, 07:21:38 PM
IIRC ireks used to make some pretty popular LME?

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Yep.  It was diastatic and the cans kept exploding.  That was 20 years or so ago,
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 02, 2021, 07:51:00 PM
This is all timely because I have a Marzen cold, kegged and carbed and I have a Vienna Lager in a fermenter now.  Next up is my recipe for a beer brewed by New Glarus in WI called "Two Women".  Very simple beer that the brewers describe as a German Country Lager.  Two Malts, one hop.  They will not hand out recipe information but I'm pretty sure the recipe is Pils + Munich 2, the hop is Hallertau Mittelfruh and the yeast is either 2308 or 838.  I have 838 running now so I am making it this weekend.  It's not far from an Oktoberfest so I would potentially have a Vienna, Oktoberfest and Marzen all in a close timeline.  I'm going to make this beer with a 60/40 Pils/Munich 2 grain bill, around 24-25 IBUs of HM to bitter and then another half ounce at 10 minutes.  Simple and easy-drinking. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 03, 2021, 04:03:27 AM
Here’s an SRM to EBC calculator if anyone needs one:

https://beerandbrewing.com/tools/color-calculator/
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 03, 2021, 02:03:24 PM
Here’s an SRM to EBC calculator if anyone needs one:

https://beerandbrewing.com/tools/color-calculator/

That's cool.

Poured a glass of my Vienna Lager (100% Vienna Malt), and held it up to several color charts.
It is a 7 on the SRM scale.
Or...for those of us who do not like numbers, it's a dark gold / pale amber.

Might add some Munich Malt next go around. But there is no real reason to, as this beer is extremely drinkable as is.

edit: My goal was not to achieve a specific SRM, or color. It was only to have the best tasting beer. The resulting color is not a point of concern for us who are drinking it.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 03, 2021, 02:12:01 PM
... My goal was not to achieve a specific SRM, or color. It was only to have the best tasting beer. The resulting color is not a point of concern for us who are drinking it.

+1


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 03, 2021, 03:35:08 PM
Such a wonderful style to enjoy - I can rarely keep it around for long.  A good friend and also my brother will drink it and only it when I have it on tap.  Gotta brew another one - maybe this weekend!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 03, 2021, 04:02:46 PM
Such a wonderful style to enjoy - I can rarely keep it around for long.  A good friend and also my brother will drink it and only it when I have it on tap.  Gotta brew another one - maybe this weekend!
I agree that it's a great style to explore and as homebrewers we can move it around a little bit... more hops?  Check.  Lighter or darker color?  Check.  Different hops?  Check.  Choose any lager yeast you like?  Check.  Pairs well with many foods too although I generally don't pay a lot of attention to that. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 03, 2021, 04:13:29 PM
Such a wonderful style to enjoy - I can rarely keep it around for long.  A good friend and also my brother will drink it and only it when I have it on tap.  Gotta brew another one - maybe this weekend!
I agree that it's a great style to explore and as homebrewers we can move it around a little bit... more hops?  Check.  Lighter or darker color?  Check.  Different hops?  Check.  Choose any lager yeast you like?  Check.  Pairs well with many foods too although I generally don't pay a lot of attention to that.

Yeast? The one I used was W-34/70, with very good results. Is there another recommendation for Vienna Lager, perhaps something you have used?

The 34/70 has become my go-to yeast for most lager style beers.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 03, 2021, 04:42:17 PM
For Vienna Lager I would use 2124, 2308, 838, Omega Bayern for sure, 830 and possibly even 940 which is one of my favorite strains and with Vienna being more of a Mexican thing than an Austrian thing, it fits right in.  For dry I could see S-189 or Diamond doing the trick. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 03, 2021, 10:28:54 PM
I pitched my recent Vienna with Imperial L28 Urkel, which is the Pilsner Urquell D strain.  I am anxious to see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 03, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
I pitched my recent Vienna with Imperial L28 Urkel, which is the Pilsner Urquell D strain.  I am anxious to see how it turns out.
Is there a Wyeast or White Labs equivalent to that yeast?  Wyeast has (had?) a 2000 and a 2001 strain and one was Urquell and one was Budvar.  I can't remember which was which or whether they're still available or not. 

EDIT:  2000 is Budvar, 2001 is Urquell "H".  I do not understand the "D" or "H" strain variations. 
Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 03, 2021, 10:55:24 PM
D = Diploid (two complete sets of chromosomes, one from each parent.)
H = Haploid (a single set of unpaired chromosomes)


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: HopDen on March 03, 2021, 11:06:12 PM
All this talk about Vienna Lager has me pouring one maybe a bit early but I just had to try it!!
Brewed it Jan 31, kegged Feb21 and drinking one today. This may just be my new favorite beer.

This is my recipe I formulated using BJCP guidelines and looking at a dozen or so recipes from various sources. Is it a Vienna Lager? I think so. Next go around will see a reduction in pils and an increase in vienna and probably a slight reduction in the melanoiden.

75% Vienna
15% Pils
7% Melanoiden
2% Acid
1% Black Prinz
Hallertau, Saaz, Saaz at 75,60,30
S-189 fermented at 52*
OG-1.050
IBU-18
SRM-11

Clean, clear and malty. Very little to no bitterness. First go at a vienna lager and I am happy with how it turned out.
I will let the other 2 kegs lager for another month or longer.

This thread has been enjoyable to follow. Much information and opinions about the style.

Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 03, 2021, 11:52:49 PM
Is there a Wyeast or White Labs equivalent to that yeast?  Wyeast has (had?) a 2000 and a 2001 strain and one was Urquell and one was Budvar.  I can't remember which was which or whether they're still available or not. 

EDIT:  2000 is Budvar, 2001 is Urquell "H".  I do not understand the "D" or "H" strain variations.

Apparently, Pilsner Urquell used to ferment with multiple strains, but are using the "H" strain pretty much exclusively these days.  Wyeast 2278 is the Pilsner Urquell "D" strain.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 04, 2021, 12:12:31 AM
Is there a Wyeast or White Labs equivalent to that yeast?  Wyeast has (had?) a 2000 and a 2001 strain and one was Urquell and one was Budvar.  I can't remember which was which or whether they're still available or not. 

EDIT:  2000 is Budvar, 2001 is Urquell "H".  I do not understand the "D" or "H" strain variations.

Apparently, Pilsner Urquell used to ferment with multiple strains, but are using the "H" strain pretty much exclusively these days.  Wyeast 2278 is the Pilsner Urquell "D" strain.
Ooh, thank you for that.  I do like 2278 and it flocs out like crazy.  I did not know that was a PU strain. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 04, 2021, 12:48:49 AM
Well...here is what I did - 10 Gallons:

20 lbs Ireks Vienna Malt

18 gallons filtered tap water (no treatment / none)

2.0 oz Tettnanger Hops (whole - FWH)

1.5 OZ Tettnanger Hops @ 20 minutes remaining boil time

Boil time - 1 hour

8th generation W-34/70 yeast

ferment temp = 58 F

IBU - 28.7

SRM - 7

OG - 1.056 / BRIX - 13.8
FG - 1.015 / BRIX - 7.6
ABV - 5.4 %

We plan to brew this again...soon!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 13, 2021, 11:19:53 AM
Stated on another thread, but this is one of the best drinking beers (if not the best) I have brewed.
Very smooth, and sessionable.

Going to brew this again next week, but plan to add a little Weyermann's Red Malt, mainly for color. But this single malt grain bill needs nothing, as it is perfection on it's own.

Pulling a pint of this Vienna Lager and enjoying it in our bar reminds me so much of sitting in a pub in Frankfurt, Munich, and Amsterdam. Maybe that's why I like it so much!

My local neighborhood friend / pro-brewer / home brewer (transplanted from Austin) says this is an awesome beer.
Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 13, 2021, 12:44:58 PM
...
Pulling a pint of this Vienna Lager and enjoying it in our bar reminds me so much of sitting in a pub in Frankfurt, Munich, and Amsterdam. Maybe that's why I like it so much!

My local neighborhood friend / pro-brewer / home brewer (transplanted from Austin) says this is an awesome beer.

Good style for upcoming Cinco de Mayo festivities.


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 13, 2021, 06:20:42 PM
...
Pulling a pint of this Vienna Lager and enjoying it in our bar reminds me so much of sitting in a pub in Frankfurt, Munich, and Amsterdam. Maybe that's why I like it so much!

My local neighborhood friend / pro-brewer / home brewer (transplanted from Austin) says this is an awesome beer.

Good style for upcoming Cinco de Mayo festivities.


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i guess power to you, and my recollection of negro modelo(a?) is of a pretty meh, industrial tasting beer. but it seems so strange to me how the general american perception of vienna lager is so influenced by this one beer that simply calls itself "vienna". idk to me even the colour/tint of it seems off from what is in my mind.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 13, 2021, 07:31:14 PM
My recent Viennaish beer came out the color of Negra Modelo, but I was not shooting for something that dark.  Two ounces of Blackprinz coupled with a two-hour boil resulted in a beer with a deep amber color.  I never used Blackprinz before this beer.  It appears to be more effective than standard black patent malt when it comes to coloring beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 13, 2021, 08:02:44 PM
My recent Viennaish beer came out the color of Negra Modelo, but I was not shooting for something that dark.  Two ounces of Blackprinz coupled with a two-hour boil resulted in a beer with a deep amber color.  I never used Blackprinz before this beer.  It appears to be more effective than standard black patent malt when it comes to coloring beer.

i believe it is true, but a beer can have the same SRM, but a different tint of course right? its been ages but in my mind negra modelo is reddish-dark. the vienna in my mind is orange-brownish.
Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 13, 2021, 10:16:19 PM
Modelo Negra is a Dunkel Style beer vs Vienna. See post #50 above


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on March 14, 2021, 12:05:35 AM
Modelo Negra is a Dunkel Style beer vs Vienna. See post #50 above


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Negra Modelo may be marketed as a Dunkel, but have one side by side with something like Warsteiner Dunkel and try to convince me that they're the same style. To me, that change in labeling from years ago seems like a marketing department decision more than anything.

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Title: Vienna lager
Post by: BrewBama on March 14, 2021, 12:17:29 AM
Modelo Negra is a Dunkel Style beer vs Vienna. See post #50 above


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Negra Modelo may be marketed as a Dunkel, but have one side by side with something like Warsteiner Dunkel and try to convince me that they're the same style. To me, that change in labeling from years ago seems like a marketing department decision more than anything.

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I guess that’s why they say ‘style’


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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 14, 2021, 01:34:48 PM
There was a time when Negra Modelo was one of my go-to beers, today it tastes like any other mass marketed beer, with little attraction for true beer lovers. Well...I would drink it before a Bud Light, but that's not saying much.

I would not consider it a Vienna Lager at all.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 14, 2021, 03:22:02 PM
The styles were brought to Mexico but the character has been changed on purpose to make the beer go better with the warm, tropical climate and also the food.  You can't (or shouldn't) compare Negra Modelo with a European dunkel.  It could probably be a separate set of guidelines after all this time.  I would bet that there is corn in Negra Modelo although I thought I saw somewhere that it was an all-malt beer.  I believe Victoria is the Vienna-style, Negra Modelo is the Dunkel-style but they're both Mexican-style. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 14, 2021, 04:16:40 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: denny on March 14, 2021, 04:38:16 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

I recall seeing it in the spring when they were "cleaning out the ferementers".....so the story went!
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 14, 2021, 05:08:17 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

For years Coors produced a seasonal beer "Winterfest", which was drinkable. But to me, it tasted much like their Killian's Irish Red.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: jeffy on March 14, 2021, 05:44:40 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

I recall seeing it in the spring when they were "cleaning out the ferementers".....so the story went!
All the local breweries in Cincinnati would have a Bockbier in the Spring.  Some of them were actually authentic, although not as strong as their German aspirations.  Those big regional breweries are mostly gone now, but I remember Wiedeman, Burger, Hudephol, Red Cap and maybe some others.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 14, 2021, 08:48:40 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

I recall seeing it in the spring when they were "cleaning out the ferementers".....so the story went!
All the local breweries in Cincinnati would have a Bockbier in the Spring.  Some of them were actually authentic, although not as strong as their German aspirations.  Those big regional breweries are mostly gone now, but I remember Wiedeman, Burger, Hudephol, Red Cap and maybe some others.
I am 55 and when I was a kid I collected beer cans so my dad would often save them for me.  In the spring, my dad would buy whichever bock he was able to find.  I distinctly remember Meister Brau Bock and also Huber Bock.  There was a beer called Old Chicago and in the spring they had Old Chicago Dark in a different-colored can.  He liked that style which I'm sure was a very watered-down version compared to a true bock but he liked it just the same.  When I go see him I usually pick up a twelver of Shiner Bock... he really likes it and he has trouble finding it in his neighborhood. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 14, 2021, 09:59:01 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

Yeah, I to was in the Spring when they cleaned the tanks. I remember my dad saying that.

That is an old myth that will never completely disappear.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: denny on March 14, 2021, 10:03:35 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

Yeah, I to was in the Spring when they cleaned the tanks. I remember my dad saying that.

That is an old myth that will never completely disappear.

Yep.  Supposedly the reason it was strong and dark was because the beer had been laying in the bottom of the tanks for a year.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 14, 2021, 10:10:17 PM
I just remember my dad and my grandfather having a bottle of National Bock Beer when we would go to visit my grandparents.  It was definitely a seasonal beer.  I believe that American bock died with the regional brewers.  Consolidation definitely killed off variety one local or regional brewery at a time.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 14, 2021, 11:15:30 PM
Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

Yeah, I to was in the Spring when they cleaned the tanks. I remember my dad saying that.

That is an old myth that will never completely disappear.

Yep.  Supposedly the reason it was strong and dark was because the beer had been laying in the bottom of the tanks for a year.

extra fermented for extra strong beer.



I just remember my dad and my grandfather having a bottle of National Bock Beer when we could go to visit my grandparents.  It was definitely a seasonal beer.  I believe that American bock died with the regional brewers.  Consolidation definitely killed off variety one local or regional brewery at a time.

ooh boy. that got my mind thinking. but no. no. i will forget what you have just said.


IBU range...
OG/FG...

Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on March 15, 2021, 02:08:30 AM


Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

Yeah, I to was in the Spring when they cleaned the tanks. I remember my dad saying that.

That is an old myth that will never completely disappear.

Yep.  Supposedly the reason it was strong and dark was because the beer had been laying in the bottom of the tanks for a year.

extra fermented for extra strong beer.



I just remember my dad and my grandfather having a bottle of National Bock Beer when we could go to visit my grandparents.  It was definitely a seasonal beer.  I believe that American bock died with the regional brewers.  Consolidation definitely killed off variety one local or regional brewery at a time.

ooh boy. that got my mind thinking. but no. no. i will forget what you have just said.


IBU range...
OG/FG...

1.055, 22 IBU of something nobleish, 78% Pale Malt, 15% Corn, 7% CaraMunich, maybe some Carafa for color, 34/70

Yep, my mind is going there too...

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 15, 2021, 12:51:58 PM
Here you go:

https://www.americancraftbeer.com/bock-national-bock-beer-day/

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/005342726106/media/1694302196630042/medium/1615812681/enhance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83BQ9H2Ma1U&t=36s
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 15, 2021, 03:50:09 PM
My dad would drink the American bocks and I remember my mom saying "You know they make that from the stuff at the bottom of the barrel".  I would be 6 years old or whatever but then I remember being in my 20s and drinking bock with my dad and my mom repeated that same silly line.  I said, "What barrel?  What are you talking about?" and she just shrugged.  Where do these things come from? 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on March 15, 2021, 04:02:32 PM
My neck of the woods (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210315/c342f22fb7cf1a34fba2039ad87fe123.jpg)

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 16, 2021, 02:25:36 AM
ok so here is my vienna finally.

90% weyermann vienna, 10% weyermann munich 2 (checked my notes.)

used s-189, all EKG hops to ~30IBU. 1.051-1.011. extremely happy with the clarity of this. definitely malty, but not excessively so. kind of a lightish honey-cake/honey cookies aroma. body is on the thin side, but not excessively so. i wanted a highly drinkable beer.

just feels really balanced and straightforward. i was really looking forward to something i can pass around to the non-craft brew drinkers in my neighbourhood if needs be. this should fit the bill completely.

sorry for lack of head present, but its been bottled for only 7 days at lager temps. its still not fully carbed and settled.

anyway this is what a mostly vienna lager's colour looks like. would have been paler i suppose without the munich2.

(https://i.imgur.com/wf0x76O.jpg)
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Saccharomyces on March 16, 2021, 03:27:05 AM
How long was that beer lagered before being bottled?
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 16, 2021, 12:51:44 PM
And what SRM is that...9, 10, more?

Tomorrow is brew day here, with Ireks Vienna and a touch of Weyermann’s Red.

My craft-brew friends are raving about this beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: goose on March 16, 2021, 02:25:14 PM
The Point Brewery (aka the Stevens Point Brewery) in Stevens Point, WI also made a bock beer.  My cousin who lived there would bring me some every time he came to Ohio.  Don't think they make it anymore.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 16, 2021, 03:59:53 PM
The Point Brewery (aka the Stevens Point Brewery) in Stevens Point, WI also made a bock beer.  My cousin who lived there would bring me some every time he came to Ohio.  Don't think they make it anymore.
I remember that.  The standard POINT beer was in a blue can and the bock was in a green and gray can (something like that).  Yeah, it's interesting that no other macro brewery makes a bock.  It occurs to me that Shiner Bock is pretty popular for better or worse.  A regional or national brewery that made a similar beer could do well with it, I think.  When I have my "American Bock" on tap here, it does not last long.  My brother in law pretty much drained my last one himself.  :P
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: erockrph on March 16, 2021, 04:24:14 PM
The Point Brewery (aka the Stevens Point Brewery) in Stevens Point, WI also made a bock beer.  My cousin who lived there would bring me some every time he came to Ohio.  Don't think they make it anymore.
I remember that.  The standard POINT beer was in a blue can and the bock was in a green and gray can (something like that).  Yeah, it's interesting that no other macro brewery makes a bock.  It occurs to me that Shiner Bock is pretty popular for better or worse.  A regional or national brewery that made a similar beer could do well with it, I think.  When I have my "American Bock" on tap here, it does not last long.  My brother in law pretty much drained my last one himself. 
Is Michelob Amber Bock still around? Not that it's a great beer, but that's a macro bock for ya.

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 16, 2021, 05:19:18 PM
How long was that beer lagered before being bottled?

total fermentation time was 7 weeks. i used gelatin 3 or 4 days before putting it in secondary and i really chilled it as much as possible for that last 3 weeks. i wish i had one in my hand right now to taste-test again, but from my memory i find this "cleaner" than W34/70, though ive improved my practices since when i used that. it is simply commercial-quality clean with an accent towards a malty-roundedness as a particular flavour. i taste-tested the other S189 brew last night as well and it has that particular flavour as well despite just being plain DME.


And what SRM is that...9, 10, more?

Tomorrow is brew day here, with Ireks Vienna and a touch of Weyermann’s Red.

My craft-brew friends are raving about this beer.

my brewing software says SRM 6.8, i'd say that's about right. i feel like the colour has lost its bright orange and turned more plain copper, but could be due to slight haze vs clarity.




additional note: before lagering and bottling i was concerned that the vienna flavour was too big for what i had hoped for, but it has mellowed a lot, to where now i can taste how commercial breweries could release a 100% vienna malt beer for general consumption without "too much" flavour being an issue.

if i did this again i'd do 99% vienna 1% carafa 3 special or black malt to get the colour up to 10+. IBUs the same
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 16, 2021, 05:38:37 PM
The Point Brewery (aka the Stevens Point Brewery) in Stevens Point, WI also made a bock beer.  My cousin who lived there would bring me some every time he came to Ohio.  Don't think they make it anymore.
I remember that.  The standard POINT beer was in a blue can and the bock was in a green and gray can (something like that).  Yeah, it's interesting that no other macro brewery makes a bock.  It occurs to me that Shiner Bock is pretty popular for better or worse.  A regional or national brewery that made a similar beer could do well with it, I think.  When I have my "American Bock" on tap here, it does not last long.  My brother in law pretty much drained my last one himself. 
Is Michelob Amber Bock still around? Not that it's a great beer, but that's a macro bock for ya.

Yes. In 6 packs and kegs. It is not a bad beer.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: ynotbrusum on March 16, 2021, 05:46:11 PM
The Point Brewery (aka the Stevens Point Brewery) in Stevens Point, WI also made a bock beer.  My cousin who lived there would bring me some every time he came to Ohio.  Don't think they make it anymore.
I remember that.  The standard POINT beer was in a blue can and the bock was in a green and gray can (something like that).  Yeah, it's interesting that no other macro brewery makes a bock.  It occurs to me that Shiner Bock is pretty popular for better or worse.  A regional or national brewery that made a similar beer could do well with it, I think.  When I have my "American Bock" on tap here, it does not last long.  My brother in law pretty much drained my last one himself. 
Is Michelob Amber Bock still around? Not that it's a great beer, but that's a macro bock for ya.

Yes. In 6 packs and kegs. It is not a bad beer.

My brother has a lake house near a rustic bar that is in walking distance to his place - Michelob Amber Bock is on tap - $1 for 7 or 8 oz. pour.  It is the house special and man can you toss those back easy!  Served in nice little pilsner glasses.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 16, 2021, 06:52:36 PM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: beersk on March 16, 2021, 06:54:03 PM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon. 
No, man, we're still on American Wheat... :D
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 16, 2021, 07:23:51 PM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon.

Yes, brewed at the Houston brewery by AB.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 16, 2021, 07:23:59 PM


Is anyone else old enough to remember when American lager brewers produced a bock beer in the winter?  I believe that it was mostly a colored, slightly stronger version of the standard product, but I was just a kid at the time.

Yeah, I to was in the Spring when they cleaned the tanks. I remember my dad saying that.

That is an old myth that will never completely disappear.

Yep.  Supposedly the reason it was strong and dark was because the beer had been laying in the bottom of the tanks for a year.

extra fermented for extra strong beer.



I just remember my dad and my grandfather having a bottle of National Bock Beer when we could go to visit my grandparents.  It was definitely a seasonal beer.  I believe that American bock died with the regional brewers.  Consolidation definitely killed off variety one local or regional brewery at a time.

ooh boy. that got my mind thinking. but no. no. i will forget what you have just said.


IBU range...
OG/FG...

1.055, 22 IBU of something nobleish, 78% Pale Malt, 15% Corn, 7% CaraMunich, maybe some Carafa for color, 34/70

Yep, my mind is going there too...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


lol and to be cruel:

realistically - 1.050 - 1.005, 15 IBU, 70% 6row, 29% corn 1% colour malt/colouring caramel

you know its true.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 16, 2021, 07:58:35 PM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon. 
No, man, we're still on American Wheat... :D
:P

Fermenting now.  I ended up using BRY-97 on it and it's the first time I have used that yeast.  I rehydrated it, pitched it and it took off nicely, fermented like a banshee and is winding down now.  It should be in a keg around this time next week and I will post pics of it too.  The wort I made was very, very pale and I wanted it to have some color so I used some homemade sinamar that I made by cold-steeping some midnight wheat.  I poured some of that into the kettle and got some color out of it.  Looking forward to trying it.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: beersk on March 16, 2021, 09:13:39 PM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon. 
No, man, we're still on American Wheat... :D
:P

Fermenting now.  I ended up using BRY-97 on it and it's the first time I have used that yeast.  I rehydrated it, pitched it and it took off nicely, fermented like a banshee and is winding down now.  It should be in a keg around this time next week and I will post pics of it too.  The wort I made was very, very pale and I wanted it to have some color so I used some homemade sinamar that I made by cold-steeping some midnight wheat.  I poured some of that into the kettle and got some color out of it.  Looking forward to trying it.
Interesting. Decided to skip the British yeast huh? It'll probably be more "American" the way you did it anyway. I'm brewing a kolsch-style this weekend to get wy1007 started, then the American Wheat.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Village Taphouse on March 16, 2021, 10:44:43 PM
Interesting. Decided to skip the British yeast huh? It'll probably be more "American" the way you did it anyway. I'm brewing a kolsch-style this weekend to get wy1007 started, then the American Wheat.
This 1968 has produced a bit of diacetyl in some beers which is in its DNA.  I tried hard to warm it up near the end of fermentation but it's still cool here so I may have mishandled that.  The other thing is that when I harvested the yeast I did not like the smell.  That may have just been me sniffing VERY concentrated yeast but I figured I would see what BRY-97 will do.  I have high hopes. 
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 17, 2021, 02:43:35 AM
In Texas you will see something called "Ziegenbock".  I believe it's made by Anheuser-Busch and it's probably this Amber Bock.  I remember drinking some amber bock back in the day.  Smooth, great with food, satisfying.  All this talk makes me think I need to get my American Bock or my Mexican Dark Lager up and running here soon.

It is to directly compete with Shiner Bock. Tastes very similar, not sure if the same to Amber Bock.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 17, 2021, 10:09:32 PM
I think this is the Vienna Lager thread...so I brewed up another 10 gallons today.

20 lbs Ireks Vienna
2 lbs Weyermann Carared
Single Step Infusion Mash
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops (FWH)
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops @ 20 minutes
18 gallons filtered tap water - no treatment
75 minute boil
9th generation W-34/70
OG - 1.057
29 IBU
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Iliff Ave on March 17, 2021, 11:30:17 PM
So what do you guys think about Vienna lager?   :o
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: Oiscout on March 17, 2021, 11:41:46 PM
Lol(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210317/a85fcb3987077aa74391ed973ee414fc.jpg)

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Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: beersk on March 18, 2021, 02:49:47 AM
I think this is the Vienna Lager thread...so I brewed up another 10 gallons today.

20 lbs Ireks Vienna
2 lbs Weyermann Carared
Single Step Infusion Mash
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops (FWH)
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops @ 20 minutes
18 gallons filtered tap water - no treatment
75 minute boil
9th generation W-34/70
OG - 1.057
29 IBU
This looks like a solid recipe. I dig it.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 18, 2021, 10:57:05 AM
I think this is the Vienna Lager thread...so I brewed up another 10 gallons today.

20 lbs Ireks Vienna
2 lbs Weyermann Carared
Single Step Infusion Mash
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops (FWH)
2.0 oz 6.0 AA Mt. Hood Hops @ 20 minutes
18 gallons filtered tap water - no treatment
75 minute boil
9th generation W-34/70
OG - 1.057
29 IBU
This looks like a solid recipe. I dig it.

Solid, yet simple.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: fredthecat on March 21, 2021, 05:00:02 PM
update in cae anyone cares:

after 16 days in bottle and a full pint tasted, i note small but detectable amounts of DMS flavour. i strongly like (not love) the overall flavour of it still. i figured since it was 3 SRM malt that a 60 min boil would be fine

if i ever made this again i would definitely do 99% vienna and 1% black malt. i havent had DMS in a long long long time, as i rarely make beers with an SRM this low.
Title: Re: Vienna lager
Post by: TXFlyGuy on March 21, 2021, 05:33:01 PM
update in cae anyone cares:

after 16 days in bottle and a full pint tasted, i note small but detectable amounts of DMS flavour. i strongly like (not love) the overall flavour of it still. i figured since it was 3 SRM malt that a 60 min boil would be fine

if i ever made this again i would definitely do 99% vienna and 1% black malt. i havent had DMS in a long long long time, as i rarely make beers with an SRM this low.

My second Vienna is at work right now, with 10% Weyermann Carared. Stand by for a full update.