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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 11:30:59 am

Title: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 11:30:59 am
Brewing an Imperial Stout today, using London Ale yeast. The website says it is good up to 11% ABV.
Never made a high gravity beer with this before. Mine came in at 1.093, or 22.2 Brix.

What has your experience been?

Looks like my efficiency is off a bit, as the recipe calculator said OG of 1.120.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: dannyjed on March 31, 2021, 11:38:31 am
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


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Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: denny on March 31, 2021, 11:47:44 am
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


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THIS.  Yeast attenuation rating is for comparing one yeast to another using a standard wort.  It doesn't necessarily reflect that attenuation you can expect.  Wort composition is the main factor in attenuation.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 12:14:44 pm
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

THIS.  Yeast attenuation rating is for comparing one yeast to another using a standard wort.  It doesn't necessarily reflect that attenuation you can expect.  Wort composition is the main factor in attenuation.

Ok, understand. So with an OG of 1.093, any guess as to what we should expect? The ferment temp is 62F.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: denny on March 31, 2021, 12:18:43 pm
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

THIS.  Yeast attenuation rating is for comparing one yeast to another using a standard wort.  It doesn't necessarily reflect that attenuation you can expect.  Wort composition is the main factor in attenuation.

Ok, understand. So with an OG of 1.093, any guess as to what we should expect? The ferment temp is 62F.

I can make a guess if I see the recipe.  But it's only a guess.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: dmtaylor on March 31, 2021, 12:27:16 pm
Usually a reasonable estimate for most yeasts and recipes:  Gravity points divided by 4.  That's specific gravity but ignoring the 1.0 in front.

So, for 1.093, that's 93 / 4 = 23 which is 1.023.

However Denny is correct, the real number is very dependent on yeast strain and recipe, so if we have that, including mash times and temperatures, then we can refine the estimate further.


P.S.  Another very rough guideline:  If the OG is 1.093, then you should end up with roughly 9.3% ABV, plus or minus a few tenths.  This works for many yeasts and recipes, but again... it depends.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: denny on March 31, 2021, 12:58:39 pm
Usually a reasonable estimate for most yeasts and recipes:  Gravity points divided by 4.  That's specific gravity but ignoring the 1.0 in front.

So, for 1.093, that's 93 / 4 = 23 which is 1.023.

However Denny is correct, the real number is very dependent on yeast strain and recipe, so if we have that, including mash times and temperatures, then we can refine the estimate further.


P.S.  Another very rough guideline:  If the OG is 1.093, then you should end up with roughly 9.3% ABV, plus or minus a few tenths.  This works for many yeasts and recipes, but again... it depends.

Those are good ballpark numbers, Dave.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 01:05:13 pm
Usually a reasonable estimate for most yeasts and recipes:  Gravity points divided by 4.  That's specific gravity but ignoring the 1.0 in front.

So, for 1.093, that's 93 / 4 = 23 which is 1.023.

However Denny is correct, the real number is very dependent on yeast strain and recipe, so if we have that, including mash times and temperatures, then we can refine the estimate further.


P.S.  Another very rough guideline:  If the OG is 1.093, then you should end up with roughly 9.3% ABV, plus or minus a few tenths.  This works for many yeasts and recipes, but again... it depends.

Good to know, thank you.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 01:12:55 pm
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

THIS.  Yeast attenuation rating is for comparing one yeast to another using a standard wort.  It doesn't necessarily reflect that attenuation you can expect.  Wort composition is the main factor in attenuation.

Ok, understand. So with an OG of 1.093, any guess as to what we should expect? The ferment temp is 62F.

I can make a guess if I see the recipe.  But it's only a guess.

Here goes:

20 lbs Pale
4 lbs Munich
1 lb 40 Crystal
1 lb 120 Caramel
1/2 lb Brown Malt
1/2 lb Chocolate Malt
1/4 lb Roasted Barley
1/4 lb Special B

Mash @ 142 = 30 minutes
Mash @ 154 = 30 minutes
Then raised to 170
90 minutes total time in Mash.

2.0 oz Willamette 6% AA FWH
2.0 oz Willamette 6% AA 30 minutes
2.0 oz Willamette 6% AA 5 minutes

Target IBU = 55

90 minute boil

Wyeast London Ale - #1028 (5th Generation)

OG - 1.093
Brix - 22.2

I tasted the wort after cooling. Balanced, bitterness & sweetness. Not bad. Fingers crossed on this one, as it is a first attempt.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: denny on March 31, 2021, 01:24:51 pm
When I make big beers my efficiency always goes down 10-15%. I pay less attention to what the yeast manufacturer states as the max alcohol tolerance and more to what the wort composition is. The more Crystal and Roasted grains the less attenuation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

THIS.  Yeast attenuation rating is for comparing one yeast to another using a standard wort.  It doesn't necessarily reflect that attenuation you can expect.  Wort composition is the main factor in attenuation.

Ok, understand. So with an OG of 1.093, any guess as to what we should expect? The ferment temp is 62F.

I can make a guess if I see the recipe.  But it's only a guess.

Here goes:

20 lbs Pale
4 lbs Munich
1 lb 40 Crystal
1 lb 120 Caramel
1/2 lb Brown Malt
1/2 lb Chocolate Malt
1/4 lb Roasted Barley
1/4 lb Special B

Mash @ 142 = 30 minutes
Mash @ 154 = 30 minutes
Then raised to 170
90 minutes total time in Mash.

90 minute boil

Wyeast London Ale - #1028 (5th Generation)

OG - 1.093
Brix - 22.2

I tasted the wort after cooling. Balanced, bitterness & sweetness. Not bad. Fingers crossed on this one, as it is a first attempt.

Rough top of the head math is that you've got around 13% low fermentables.  I wouldn't expect it to finish any lower than the 1.023 Dave predicted.  Which wouldn't be bad.  But like I said, it's only a guess.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: dmtaylor on March 31, 2021, 01:41:15 pm
Thanks for the recipe.  Looks like a good one.  Based on it...

I stand by my previous numbers.  They should be almost completely dead on.  9.3% ABV.  And/or maybe 1.024 and 9.2%.  Close to that.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: erockrph on March 31, 2021, 01:41:22 pm
I agree with the ballpark numbers from Denny and Dave. One other crucial factor is the yeast pitch. Fresh,  big, and healthy will get you a lot closer to the mid to low 1.020s FG

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Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: dmtaylor on March 31, 2021, 01:43:54 pm
I agree with the ballpark numbers from Denny and Dave. One other crucial factor is the yeast pitch. Fresh,  big, and healthy will get you a lot closer to the mid to low 1.020s FG

In my experience, pitch rate is important to minimize lag time and get to the goal faster, while minimizing off-flavors.... but should not affect attenuation / FG, with enough patience.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 01:52:01 pm
Thanks for the recipe.  Looks like a good one.  Based on it...

I stand by my previous numbers.  They should be almost completely dead on.  9.3% ABV.  And/or maybe 1.024 and 9.2%.  Close to that.

Thanks for your input.
This recipe is taken from North Coast RIS, but a lot more base malt was added. About 8 lbs total extra base malt, 4 lbs Pale, 4 lbs Munich. My goal was to hit north of 10% ABV. But, we can live with 9.3% +/-.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 01:54:58 pm
I agree with the ballpark numbers from Denny and Dave. One other crucial factor is the yeast pitch. Fresh,  big, and healthy will get you a lot closer to the mid to low 1.020s FG

In my experience, pitch rate is important to minimize lag time and get to the goal faster, while minimizing off-flavors.... but should not affect attenuation / FG, with enough patience.

The yeast is fresh, being harvested about a month ago from an English Porter. Got it going yesterday, with added fresh wort, and today with more wort. It looks very good, and active. About 1/2 gallon slurry in a 6 gallon batch. And the aroma from this yeast is to die for!

edit: Yes, I know...another example of over-pitching. But it works for me!
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: denny on March 31, 2021, 02:23:11 pm
I agree with the ballpark numbers from Denny and Dave. One other crucial factor is the yeast pitch. Fresh,  big, and healthy will get you a lot closer to the mid to low 1.020s FG

In my experience, pitch rate is important to minimize lag time and get to the goal faster, while minimizing off-flavors.... but should not affect attenuation / FG, with enough patience.

I agree, given a sufficient and healthy pitch.  Pitching too little or unhealthy yeast will affect FG.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 05:35:27 pm
I agree with the ballpark numbers from Denny and Dave. One other crucial factor is the yeast pitch. Fresh,  big, and healthy will get you a lot closer to the mid to low 1.020s FG

In my experience, pitch rate is important to minimize lag time and get to the goal faster, while minimizing off-flavors.... but should not affect attenuation / FG, with enough patience.

I agree, given a sufficient and healthy pitch.  Pitching too little or unhealthy yeast will affect FG.

Not sure if this is an indicator or not, but within 3 hours of pitching the yeast, there are signs of healthy activity. C02 discharging from my blow-off tube! I think the yeast is healthy, and sufficient!
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Richard on March 31, 2021, 07:39:54 pm
I have brewed a nearly identical recipe (but no special B) and have gotten 1.087 ->1.023, 1.092->1.024, 1.093->1.023, 1.092->1.029. I did a single rest at 152 F. All were stunningly delicious!
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on March 31, 2021, 07:42:03 pm
I have brewed a nearly identical recipe (but no special B) and have gotten 1.087 ->1.023, 1.092->1.024, 1.093->1.023, 1.092->1.029. I did a single rest at 152 F. All were stunningly delicious!

Wow, that is good to know! Hope mine turns out as good as yours.
Did you consume this beer right away, or did you give it a chance to age?
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Richard on March 31, 2021, 07:47:13 pm
It was good right away but did improve with age. I just noticed two important differences: I made a 5 gallon batch with 10 lbs of pale malt and the same amounts of specialty malts as you (but I didn't use Special B) so my flavors were stronger. I also used WLP028 Scottish Ale Yeast because I like to use it for stouts.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on April 01, 2021, 01:18:24 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 01, 2021, 01:32:46 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Expansion stroke.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: fredthecat on April 01, 2021, 02:24:22 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Hey, do you use brewing software? I think you might have mentioned before, but I can't remember.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on April 01, 2021, 04:09:33 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Expansion stroke.

Yes, and I stand corrected!
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on April 01, 2021, 04:11:45 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Hey, do you use brewing software? I think you might have mentioned before, but I can't remember.

Short answer, no. I did use a recipe builder (Brewer's Friend) for this one, just to get an idea of the grain bill.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: fredthecat on April 01, 2021, 07:37:47 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Hey, do you use brewing software? I think you might have mentioned before, but I can't remember.

i don't think it's popular here, but i've been using Brewtarget for over a decade now to plan out recipes. it's free and very easy to install. I'm not sure if it's still updated, and if you googled you might find newer and more popular free brewing software. It takes dialing in and customizing the boil/mash settings but now that I have it down, I can plan recipes out really easily and well. TBH I couldn't imagine brewing without the software like that.

Short answer, no. I did use a recipe builder (Brewer's Friend) for this one, just to get an idea of the grain bill.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 01, 2021, 08:08:33 pm
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Expansion stroke.

Yes, and I stand corrected!

Hey, I wandered by some old huge stationary steam engines at the Henry Ford yesterday. Those were between the Tiffany glass and racing special exhibits.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: jeffy on April 02, 2021, 05:14:51 am
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Expansion stroke.

Yes, and I stand corrected!

Hey, I wandered by some old huge stationary steam engines at the Henry Ford yesterday. Those were between the Tiffany glass and racing special exhibits.
When I was a little kid, my dad took me to that museum.  I was really impressed with the size of the machines.
Title: Re: Wyeast London Ale
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on April 02, 2021, 05:25:56 am
20 hours later, the yeast / ferment is working like a steam engine locomotive pulling 100 cars of freight up a steep grade...chug, chug, chug, chug, blowing steam with every compression stroke!

The indicators are the beer should do well. But as this is a first for me, we will have to wait and see. The plan is to put some aging on this, probably 10 months.

Expansion stroke.

Yes, and I stand corrected!

Hey, I wandered by some old huge stationary steam engines at the Henry Ford yesterday. Those were between the Tiffany glass and racing special exhibits.
When I was a little kid, my dad took me to that museum.  I was really impressed with the size of the.....

That's what she said.