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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: denny on May 29, 2021, 01:54:27 pm

Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on May 29, 2021, 01:54:27 pm
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-133-daves-definitely-here-man

When we asked for listener questions - y'all responded, but one man - Dave Taylor - dropped a mountain of questions on us. He and Denny go way back online with many years of thoughts, conversations and conflicting opinions. So, we sat down with Dave and work through all of his questions in a go!
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on May 29, 2021, 04:50:52 pm
Dave Taylor of Anheuser Busch fame?

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: pete b on May 29, 2021, 06:46:33 pm
Dave Taylor of Anheuser Busch fame?

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No, Dave Taylor of anti Anheuser Busch Fame.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on May 29, 2021, 06:51:44 pm
Thanks for clarifying.
Enjoy!

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on May 29, 2021, 07:19:03 pm
Dave Taylor of Anheuser Busch fame?

THAT Dave's not here, man.

*burp*

Thanks to Denny and Drew for the invite.  Great times.  Sorry for the moments that my internet connection was choppy, that's my bad, not theirs.

Cheers all.  :)
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: pete b on May 29, 2021, 07:45:13 pm
Dave Taylor of Anheuser Busch fame?

THAT Dave's not here, man.

*burp*

Thanks to Denny and Drew for the invite.  Great times.  Sorry for the moments that my internet connection was choppy, that's my bad, not theirs.

Cheers all.  :)
I told ya it wasn’t that Dave. He’s not here. Now open up, it’s Dave...
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dbeechum on May 29, 2021, 11:42:52 pm
THAT Dave's not here, man.

I don't remember if Denny left it in the intro we recorded, but I did literally say "Dave's not here, man" and we both laughed. Hence the title of the episode.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: purduekenn on June 02, 2021, 06:16:05 pm
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on June 02, 2021, 07:08:23 pm
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: purduekenn on June 02, 2021, 07:55:36 pm
I've used S-04 in stouts and brown ales with good results. I plan on using this yeast more often after listening to the podcast today.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 03, 2021, 08:21:20 am
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on June 03, 2021, 09:16:52 am
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: purduekenn on June 03, 2021, 09:23:26 am
I recently used it for a Brown and Amber Ale and I liked it a lot. I plan on using it for a Pale Ale this summer.  Other suggestions?
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 03, 2021, 09:37:02 am
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

If you're looking for a clean yeast, it's worlds cleaner than 04 or 05.  Very attenuative and clears better than 05.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Megary on June 03, 2021, 10:35:33 am
I recently used it for a Brown and Amber Ale and I liked it a lot. I plan on using it for a Pale Ale this summer.  Other suggestions?

Dry Stout.  I tinkered with my yeast choice on this style for a good while.  When I finally tried BRY-97, the search was over.  The beer shot up to a whole new level. 
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: erockrph on June 03, 2021, 04:11:05 pm


I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

If you're looking for a clean yeast, it's worlds cleaner than 04 or 05.  Very attenuative and clears better than 05.

I agree that it clears better than 05, but I don't know whether I'd call it worlds cleaner. I still prefer US05 for hoppier styles. I find that late/dry hop character is enhanced a bit better by 05 than BRY-97. I like them both, but each has their own uses for me.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 03, 2021, 04:31:33 pm


I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

If you're looking for a clean yeast, it's worlds cleaner than 04 or 05.  Very attenuative and clears better than 05.

I agree that it clears better than 05, but I don't know whether I'd call it worlds cleaner. I still prefer US05 for hoppier styles. I find that late/dry hop character is enhanced a bit better by 05 than BRY-97. I like them both, but each has their own uses for me.

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Maybe it's the fruitiness from 05 enhancing the hops? 
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: erockrph on June 03, 2021, 05:52:58 pm


I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

If you're looking for a clean yeast, it's worlds cleaner than 04 or 05.  Very attenuative and clears better than 05.

I agree that it clears better than 05, but I don't know whether I'd call it worlds cleaner. I still prefer US05 for hoppier styles. I find that late/dry hop character is enhanced a bit better by 05 than BRY-97. I like them both, but each has their own uses for me.

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Maybe it's the fruitiness from 05 enhancing the hops?
Possibly, although I don't really consider it fruity. It is by comparison to other neutral ale yeasts, but when I think US-05 "fruity" isn't the first descriptor that comes to mind.

I find that some flocculant strains have less hop expression. I've read (from Stan H, I think) that hop oils can adsorb to the surface of yeast and end up getting pulled out when the yeast flocs out. I haven't found that this is universal, but I have noticed that my experience with several strains tends to trend like this (i.e., more flocculant strains have a higher tendency to reduce hop flavor compared to less flocculant ones). I think this is why certain yeast strains work better for NEIPAs, and this is my guess why I prefer US05 over BRY97 in late hopped beers.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 04, 2021, 07:19:28 am
I listened to this episode today and I enjoyed it a lot. Thanks to Dave for asking the questions and to Denny and Drew for answering them!. I thought it was interesting that Dave used S-04 for a lager that turned out good. Great Fementations homebrew supply also recommends S-04 as a dry yeast option with for their Oktoberfest kit along with 34/70.

Glad you liked it.  I'ma gonna use S-04 a whole heck of a lot more in the future.  I said it someplace, might have been in the episode but I think on some other forum -- I think from now on I might use S-04 wherever I used to use US-05, because it ferments and flocs out faster, and hey it might even be cleaner!?!?

Have you tried BRY-97?  If not, you should.

Only twice, years ago... and I wasn't pleased with the result either time.  However I'd be willing to give it another shot.  Maybe the errors were mine and not the yeast's fault, as I know BRY-97 gets great reviews from most who've tried it.  Thanks for the suggestion.

If you're looking for a clean yeast, it's worlds cleaner than 04 or 05.  Very attenuative and clears better than 05.

I split a batch between US-05 and BRY-97, and the BRY-97 was preferred.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Kevin on June 05, 2021, 07:46:31 am
Bonus points if anyone is old enough to know where the "Dave's not here" reference comes from. Double bonus points if you have the album on vinyl.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Joe Sr. on June 05, 2021, 08:23:47 am
Oy! Definitely old enough but don’t have the album. Was it on the same album as basketball Jones?

Santa Claus and his old lady is a Christmas standard in our home.

Never used BRY-97. I want to say I’ve gotten peach flavor from us-05 but I’ve been happy with it lately.

I’ll try to check out the podcast.


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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 05, 2021, 08:33:37 am
Oy! Definitely old enough but don’t have the album. Was it on the same album as basketball Jones?

Santa Claus and his old lady is a Christmas standard in our home.

Never used BRY-97. I want to say I’ve gotten peach flavor from us-05 but I’ve been happy with it lately.

I’ll try to check out the podcast.


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Basketball Jones was Bill Cosby
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: erockrph on June 05, 2021, 08:59:01 pm
Oy! Definitely old enough but don’t have the album. Was it on the same album as basketball Jones?

Santa Claus and his old lady is a Christmas standard in our home.

Never used BRY-97. I want to say I’ve gotten peach flavor from us-05 but I’ve been happy with it lately.

I’ll try to check out the podcast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Basketball Jones was Bill Cosby
I think you may have listened to too much C&C back in the day

Basketball Jones featuring Tyrone Shoelaces was definitely Cheech and Chong

https://youtu.be/DlhWPVJNAOo

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 06, 2021, 08:25:48 am
Oy! Definitely old enough but don’t have the album. Was it on the same album as basketball Jones?

Santa Claus and his old lady is a Christmas standard in our home.

Never used BRY-97. I want to say I’ve gotten peach flavor from us-05 but I’ve been happy with it lately.

I’ll try to check out the podcast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Basketball Jones was Bill Cosby
I think you may have listened to too much C&C back in the day

Basketball Jones featuring Tyrone Shoelaces was definitely Cheech and Chong

https://youtu.be/DlhWPVJNAOo

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Wow...50 years I've lived under a misconception!
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 06, 2021, 02:54:34 pm
Since I was mentioned, I have to Chime in on LODO.

LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers. My wife often doesn't taste it, so I'm sensitive to it, she isn't, for once. This oxidation takes place on the hot side, HSA is real in the right situation (more on this later).

The larger German Breweries with modern brewhouse are LODO. I'm referring to regional and larger breweries. Schönram is a regional that is LODO. Small family breweries are often not. I've picked up Herbstoff in those.

I've been brewing my lagers with LODO for sometime. I think the beers are better. British ales? I don't bother as the beers lack something. One key fact is that malts that are kilned at over 184F have denatured the LOX. That was stated by Joe Henrich (SP) on a MBAA podcast, he has work as malt expert his whole career. Pale ale malts are kilned to a darker Lovibond, which requires a higher kiln temperature so no LOX! If you are making good beers with Maris Otter, that is why. If you read where someone does a LODO experiment with Maris Otter and finds no difference, of course there is no difference!

Cold side techniques have to be good to keep O2 out for German Pilsner based beers. You can lose it on the cold side for those Pilsner based beers. British cask beers oxidize in the cask when vented, and can be seat after a day or two. Oh, many British breweries are not as advanced as the German breweries.

We have a super drinkable German Pilsner on right now. It had LODO on the hot side, and it was fermented in kegs, and spunded to develope the carbonation. We shared some with very knowledgeable friends (one BJCP National, and another an advanced Cicerone) who all loved it.

I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

One final thought, LODO Rauchbier has a longer shelf life. That bacon or ham flavor is due to the smoke phenolics oxidizing.  In Bamberg the Rauchbier tastes like fresh Texas brisket, clean smoke, no aged meat flavors.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 06, 2021, 04:23:51 pm
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

Ingradients and process are whar makes a beer. German ingredients and process, yes.

I'm  not sure who would write that. I'm retired.

I've  been kicking around how to write an article about homebrewing a very close approximation  of Schlenkerla Märzen.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on June 06, 2021, 04:29:15 pm
"Herbstoff".  Never heard of it.  No idea what it tastes like.  Is it the "hay" thing?  Otherwise it just sounds like yet another justification for why special joes should try LODO.

What can I say.  I guess I ain't special.   :o
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 06, 2021, 04:35:58 pm
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Has been around since like 2016?
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 06, 2021, 04:38:07 pm
"Herbstoff".  Never heard of it.  No idea what it tastes like.  Is it the "hay" thing?  Otherwise it just sounds like yet another justification for why special joes should try LODO.

What can I say.  I guess I ain't special.   :o

Fix wrote about this in like 93' or there abouts

https://www.brewerspublications.com/blogs/author/george-fix

And zee German's have been brewing like this (HSA mitigation) since the late 70's early 80's. This is only new for homebrewers.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on June 06, 2021, 04:51:31 pm
Pandora can keep her box intact AFAIAC.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 06, 2021, 06:16:23 pm
Since I was mentioned, I have to Chime in on LODO.

LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers. My wife often doesn't taste it, so I'm sensitive to it, she isn't, for once. This oxidation takes place on the hot side, HSA is real in the right situation (more on this later).

The larger German Breweries with modern brewhouse are LODO. I'm referring to regional and larger breweries. Schönram is a regional that is LODO. Small family breweries are often not. I've picked up Herbstoff in those.

I've been brewing my lagers with LODO for sometime. I think the beers are better. British ales? I don't bother as the beers lack something. One key fact is that malts that are kilned at over 184F have denatured the LOX. That was stated by Joe Henrich (SP) on a MBAA podcast, he has work as malt expert his whole career. Pale ale malts are kilned to a darker Lovibond, which requires a higher kiln temperature so no LOX! If you are making good beers with Maris Otter, that is why. If you read where someone does a LODO experiment with Maris Otter and finds no difference, of course there is no difference!

Cold side techniques have to be good to keep O2 out for German Pilsner based beers. You can lose it on the cold side for those Pilsner based beers. British cask beers oxidize in the cask when vented, and can be seat after a day or two. Oh, many British breweries are not as advanced as the German breweries.

We have a super drinkable German Pilsner on right now. It had LODO on the hot side, and it was fermented in kegs, and spunded to develope the carbonation. We shared some with very knowledgeable friends (one BJCP National, and another an advanced Cicerone) who all loved it.

I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

One final thought, LODO Rauchbier has a longer shelf life. That bacon or ham flavor is due to the smoke phenolics oxidizing.  In Bamberg the Rauchbier tastes like fresh Texas brisket, clean smoke, no aged meat flavors.
Yes!

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 06, 2021, 06:19:32 pm
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)
Nope. LODO for all. No change in process. Too much work. Some styles will benefit, some may not.
Benefit is sometimes just on flavor stability.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 06, 2021, 06:43:57 pm
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)
Nope. LODO for all. No change in process. Too much work. Some styles will benefit, some may not.
Benefit is sometimes just on flavor stability.

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Not so much for Cask Ales, oxidation gives some of the flavor. So no.

Then you have British bottled beers which are an oxidized mess once in the US
 Do yes.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Saccharomyces on June 06, 2021, 08:19:26 pm
Simcoe, Mosiac, Chinook, and Citra are straight-up litter box to me.  Even Cascade can have noticeable 4MMP. 
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 06, 2021, 10:06:23 pm
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 07, 2021, 05:06:19 am
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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I do all that you mention. Pre boil water, turn off the heat, add N-Meta and Brewtan-B, fill the mash tun from the bottom. The mash tun has been purged with CO2 from the bottom. I try and cap the mash as best that I can in a keggle.

Once the mash is done I transfer to the boil kettle filling from the bottom.

I recently decided to ferment in corny kegs, 3 kegs for 10 gallons gives enough headspace for lagers. Check the gravity, sound when at +1 Plato above FG. Once sounding is complete, the beer is transferred into 2 purged kegs. Lager and serve

I've only done Sauergut once. Will try that again. It is part of the flavor profile in some beers. Last time through Ayinger I noticed an aroma I didn't expect, turned around and saw tanks and pipes all labeled Sauergut.

Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 07, 2021, 05:43:18 am
[...]
I brew LODO where it benefits the beer. Some beers don't benefit. Some beers I would take care on the cold side to prolong shelf life.

I dunno.  Dr Charlie Bamforth (Beersmith "Flavor Stability" podcast #74) said “In regards to sweating the small stuff over trying to minimize air uptake in wort production and so forth, I wouldn’t waste my time and effort on that.”

He also said, that using de-aerated water or nitrogen-purging the grist are "overkill".  …but if he chose one it would be purging the grist because there’s more air in it than in the brewhaus liquor.

Instead, he recommended focusing on minimizing air in packaging and keeping packaged beer cold. He said those are the two biggest things you can do for shelf life while recommending against dosing with sulfur based compounds.

From what I understand, oxidation in the mash is caused by O2 reacting with divalent cations (manganese, magnesium, zinc — cations with valence of 2+) to create superoxide, free radicals. 

Problem is once those oxidation reactions occur, the compounds created continue all the way thru to the packaged beer and cause staling.

Instead of focusing on reducing/elimination of O2, I think time is better spent focusing on the oxidation reaction that’s occurring. Reduction or removal of these ions reduce the incidence of these reactions regardless of the level of oxygen present.

I believe by using heavy metal chelators that can trap the divalent cations, you can reduce and possibly eliminate the oxidation reaction.  So, I add 1/2 tsp of hydrated Brewtan B directly to the strike liquor prior to mash in then underlet the grist.  According to Joe Formanek, “This has worked well in systems where there is an inherent high level of DO due to equipment used.”

After the mash is complete, transfer quietly to the BK, keep the wort hot until boiling, cool quickly and pitch plenty of healthy yeast, closed transfer to a purged keg as soon as fermentation is complete (or just prior and spund), and keep the beer cold while conditioning and serving.



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Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery , and the brewer at UC Davis was doing HSA experiments when Bamforth left.

You also need to account for square-cube differences. Exposure of mash wort to oxygen is 5-10% or less vs homebrew exposure just on geometry, so differences would be less evident at a pro level.

Read also my separate comment.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 07, 2021, 06:19:24 am
The evidence that there's hot side oxidation is not in doubt. Anyone that does the experiment can see that the wort exposed to oxygen is darker/ more oxidized. Are there degrees of oxidation? Yes. You can see that too if you do the experiments.

Does it make better beer? To some like German scholars it does, for the styles they use in experiments. Subtle beers in which pilsner wort is the star.
To others, including some small, traditional German breweries, it doesn't. Exposure to oxygen in the hot side is the hallmark of many styles.  Also, darker worts differences are less evident.
Sometimes the difference is only observed in flavor stability, which may not be as important for a small brewery producing one or two beers that are consumed fast.

Does it make better better?
Or not?
Or is not too style?
Or RDWHAHB?

Each homebrewer can decide.










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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 07:24:20 am
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 08:17:41 am
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
Chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e covers the essentials of brewing extract+steep. 

Chapters 1 & 2 of Speed Brewing covers the essentials of brewing BIAB.

Is there a similar chapter in a book or single page at a web site (written, not video) that "puts it all together" for "Low oxygen" brewing?


I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Has been around since like 2016?
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 07, 2021, 08:28:15 am
I think we all agree with this:


Each homebrewer can decide.

…and this:

…"the cold side oxidation is much more important".


…because from this article:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

…we read this: “Preventing HSA: HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice. It has been my experience over the years that advocates of such procedures rarely stay with the hobby. Thus, on the homebrew level, HSA is a problem that seems to take care of itself.”



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: dmtaylor on June 07, 2021, 08:35:25 am
Dave's not here, man.  Dave left the thread, man.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 08:53:04 am
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer
Chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e covers the essentials of brewing extract+steep. 

Chapters 1 & 2 of Speed Brewing covers the essentials of brewing BIAB.

Is there a similar chapter in a book or single page at a web site (written, not video) that "puts it all together" for "Low oxygen" brewing?


I brew LODO where it benefits the beer.

So different brewing techniques for different styles of beer.  It's something I've suspected for a while.  Looking forward to reading more about this idea (here? Zymurgy? Book? ...)

https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/

Has been around since like 2016?

Been aware of that for a while. Looking for an article / chapter in a book, not a web site.

Since the folks who distilled and surmised the process of professional to homebrew level procedures, have not yet, nor have no desire to write a book, I don't think you will not find one.
They did have an article in BYO, https://byo.com/article/methods-low-oxygen-brewhouse/

But since the polarization of a general professionally accepted methods, yet homebrew witch hunt, I'm not sure they want/care about sharing anything up to date and current with the community anymore.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 07, 2021, 08:56:48 am
Homebrew witch hunt...now that's funny!
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 08:58:05 am
I think we all agree with this:


Each homebrewer can decide.

…and this:

…"the cold side oxidation is much more important".


…because from this article:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/oxidation_in_beer

…we read this: “Preventing HSA: HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice. It has been my experience over the years that advocates of such procedures rarely stay with the hobby. Thus, on the homebrew level, HSA is a problem that seems to take care of itself.”



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But you forgot this part  ;)

Quote
My own work has been sharply criticized, perhaps with some justification, for overemphasizing HSA. My posture came about primarily because of the dramatic effect that I observed when I eliminated HSA. In particular, the consistency of the performance of my beers in competitions dramatically improved when I eliminated HSA from my brewing process.


It's not doubt CSA is more important. Because you will NEVER see the benefits of one without the other. You will only ever see the effects of HSA, if there is no CSA.
Malt and Hop antioxidants (flavor positive), can only be there if the beer is not oxidized, since thats how antioxidants work.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 07, 2021, 09:13:13 am

But you forgot this part  ;)

Quote
My own work has been sharply criticized, perhaps with some justification, for overemphasizing HSA. My posture came about primarily because of the dramatic effect that I observed when I eliminated HSA. In particular, the consistency of the performance of my beers in competitions dramatically improved when I eliminated HSA from my brewing process.


No, I read it, I think eliminating HSA from his beers were by employing the quote I cited, namely “not being sloppy”.

EZ PZ



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 09:13:53 am
Homebrew witch hunt...now that's funny!

Maybe to some, but as a bystander folks can see some "weird" things.

If someone chooses to go all the way back to the HBD archives (Or was around homebrewing then ;)), they can see people namely, George Fix, and Steve Alexander, and others promote HSA and things. They can also see you as a notable denier. Fast forward to more current day things now on the AHA, once HSA is brought up we see some of the same avid deniers. The difference here is that you now have admin ability to truly silence (silent ban) people who speak up about this. I have seen screen shots of said ban(s) issued from here and other homebrew forums...
I listened to to this episode and one of the first things that is said is that by these deniers (well now denier is not a right word, because its hard to deny science, so now the the attitude is it's too hard, or not worth it), is that they have not tried said methods. Again, which is everyone's choice to do so, or so it's said. However if LODO is a brewing choice, and not something that is just vehemently opposed, why the bans?

Maybe witch hunt was the wrong wording, maybe active suppression may be better. Obviously this isn't as blatant and obvious as HBT changing every link to the TMB website to some random redirect, it's much more subtle.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 09:14:43 am

But you forgot this part  ;)

Quote
My own work has been sharply criticized, perhaps with some justification, for overemphasizing HSA. My posture came about primarily because of the dramatic effect that I observed when I eliminated HSA. In particular, the consistency of the performance of my beers in competitions dramatically improved when I eliminated HSA from my brewing process.


No, I read it, I think eliminating HSA from his beers were by employing the quote I cited, namely “not being sloppy”.

EZ PZ



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Have you read his book? It's not simply that EZ.
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 07, 2021, 09:19:06 am

Have you read his book? It's not simply that EZ.

No.  Admittedly I have not read it. The Fix article you cited makes it pretty clear to me. ….but I thought there wasn’t a book:


Since the folks who distilled and surmised the process of professional to homebrew level procedures, have not yet, nor have no desire to write a book, I don't think you will not find one.
They did have an article in BYO, https://byo.com/article/methods-low-oxygen-brewhouse/


@BrewnWKopperKat:  seems there is a book for you.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 09:26:25 am

Have you read his book? It's not simply that EZ.

No.  Admittedly I have not read it. The article you cited makes it pretty clear to me. ….but I thought there wasn’t a book:


Since the folks who distilled and surmised the process of professional to homebrew level procedures, have not yet, nor have no desire to write a book, I don't think you will not find one.
They did have an article in BYO, https://byo.com/article/methods-low-oxygen-brewhouse/


@BrewnWKopperKat:  seems there is a book for you.

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No, this is a science and theory book, this is not a how to book.  Hence the title "Principal's of Brewing Science".

https://www.brewerspublications.com/collections/all-books/products/principles-of-brewing-science-a-study-of-serious-brewing-issues-2nd-edition?gclid=Cj0KCQjwh_eFBhDZARIsALHjIKcM09pRuZaIIB8UhgJjGu4JkzmAqPWtUc0JQzG7fxDr6KO-kM9tzZYaAilwEALw_wcB


This reference page is what they(he) used for the paper, and articles written, etc.
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/list-of-brewing-references/
I know this resource page is actually cited/used in peer reviewed journals and papers, as it is the most comprehensive list of beer oxidative processes out there. I also know there is like triple that behind the paywall.  Which is something to be said.

Yes I pay for access to papers and books from TMB, But I also pay for access to AHA, BYO, HBT, among others. Been around long enough to know I don't know.


Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 07, 2021, 09:39:23 am
My mistake. I wasn’t familiar with his work.

For the record (if it matters); I for one am not a ‘HSA denier’. I simply follow Dr Bamforth’s lead that some of the practices recommended by zealous low O2 advocates is “overkill”, Joe Formanek’s lead that “chelators can arrest most of the oxidative reactions in the mash”, and Fix’s lead that “HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice” as good enough for me.



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 09:48:20 am
My mistake. I wasn’t familiar with his work.

For the record (if it matters); I for one am not a ‘HSA denier’. I simply follow Dr Bamforth’s lead that some of the practices recommended by zealous low O2 advocates is “overkill”, Joe Formanek’s lead that “chelators can arrest most of the oxidative reactions in the mash”, and Fix’s lead that “HSA is easy to avoid in home brewing because it will arise only from very sloppy brewing practice” as good enough for me.



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Great, brew how you want too!
Although, your Bamforth, and Fix comments are null because they are taken out of context, and thus spun for confirmation bias.
Bamforth as mentioned now works for a Low oxygen brewery and his book freshness, speaks quite the different tune.
Fix as mentioned already.

*Joe's sentence is not complete either, it's missing the words fenton, and haber-weiss reactions. It can not stop oxygen reactions. I'm sure he would clarify if asked.

The problem here is I see you jumping to straw man and gotcha's, citing snips, and not the full literature context is a real plague in open dialogue. It creates polarization unneededly. I can see from this and every one of your interactions where "LODO" is mentioned, you are very biased away from it. Which is totally fine, I get it. You can choose to accept or not, its everyone's choice. But the petty-ness of it all is why there is this stigma. Pandora's oxygen box has already been opened, and it's not going anywhere. The quicker everyone can just accept the science, and treat it as another method that may or may not apply to ones brewing tool box. The better and lower stress a niche hobby of a niche hobby will be.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: nateo on June 07, 2021, 09:58:45 am
I'm consistently impressed by the LODO proponents' aversion to oxygen extending to sucking the air out of every conversation they participate in. I'm not committed to anything with that kind of fervor.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 07, 2021, 10:02:26 am
I'm consistently impressed by the LODO proponents' aversion to oxygen extending to sucking the air out of every conversation they participate in. I'm not committed to anything with that kind of fervor.

Is it the proponent or the opposer? Depends on the cyberspace I guess.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Richard on June 07, 2021, 10:30:12 am
I'm consistently impressed by the LODO proponents' aversion to oxygen extending to sucking the air out of every conversation they participate in. I'm not committed to anything with that kind of fervor.

Is it the proponent or the opposer? Depends on the cyberspace I guess.
As someone who came into this a bit late, it seems to me that the problem is less with what is being said than how it is being said.
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 07, 2021, 11:02:01 am
Sorry,  Joe’s quote was from an email he sent me. He is referring to Fenton reaction. I didn’t quote the whole message for brevity. I don’t think I have misrepresented his position.

Bamforth (cited above) and Fix were taken verbatim from an interview and the article (you cited) respectively. I don’t think I have misrepresented their positions either.

I can see from this and every one of your interactions where "LODO" is mentioned, you are very biased away from it.

I said “I am not a denier”.  I’m not sure how more clear that can be. …and I’m not sure how that makes me biased away from Low O2, but OK. I guess “we agree” is not good enough for some reason.

In fact, I am not denying the science at all. I believe it. I simply don’t agree with you on how to address it which is what upsets you guys.

The problem is you don’t agree with the gentleman mentioned above when quoted verbatim because the information doesn’t fit your framework. That’s OK with me.  I happen to agree with them.

Incidentally, I also agree with Gordon Strong in Brewing Better Beer pg 31. He says, “It’s a good idea to avoid excessive aeration when stirring to avoid oxidizing the mash.”

You see, none of these folks (including me) are denying hot side oxidation.  That’s why I take steps to mitigate it.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 07, 2021, 12:09:46 pm
I know that adopting the LODO approach has improved my brewing skills; I tightened up my process quite a bit for several years.  But after a few years of strictly adhering to the LODO practices, I have loosened up a bit and can live with my lagers under my present approach - employing strict CSA measures of keg purging with CO2 while fermenting (and spunding when I catch the gravity at the right point at a convenient point to me, otherwise transferring by CO2 and force carbing).  The HSA measures I undertook previously are now modified to include what I am willing to do as a homebrewer.  Is it perfect and compliant with a LODO German brewhouse - no, but it works well enough for me and probably would be criticized as insufficient by most strict LODO adherents. 

I respect the lengths that many will go to make good beer - so LODO is just another set of processes to consider implementing to make good beer.  Thankfully I rarely keep lagers around long enough to worry about shelf stability.

Cheers to brewing how you want and respecting others brewing how they want.  As I see it we are all chasing a unicorn - and many brewers are using  different processes to try to get closer to catching it, but it is elusive.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: EnkAMania on June 08, 2021, 09:27:35 am
How do you not know that Basketball Jones was by Cheech and Chong?   :)
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 08, 2021, 06:08:26 pm
Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery …


Bamforth as mentioned now works for a Low oxygen brewery …


I found the fact that Dr Bamforth is now the Senior QC Advisor at Sierra Nevada interesting given his past comments. So, I sent Dr Smith a note asking if he could follow up with Dr Bamforth. He graciously did.

In reply Dr Bamforth sent an article he wrote for Brewer and Distiller International dtd June 2021 based on the paper given to the 36th Biennial Convention of the IBD Asia-Pacific Section, March 2021. Much of the information remains the same as past information as that from BeerSmith podcasts and other interviews.

Within the article there is a statement that fairly accurately describes the entire article: “…keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.”

He does suggest iron, copper, and manganese be less than 0.05 ppm of each but I found this interesting:  “Bear in mind that some people have recently suggested (contrary to what has long been supposed) that copper is not as big a negative as is iron.”

However, there was one noticeable change (“softening”?) from past interviews: under the heading Avoiding oxygen pick up during the process it says “I suggest that common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress are worthwhile, albeit less relevant than minimising oxygen level in the final package.” [emphasis is mine]. He goes on to name several of these common-sense approaches:

He ends the article in a very familiar way “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”

I have been accused of cherry picking information to suit my argument. I refute that claim but feel free to look up and read the complete article for yourself. 

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 08, 2021, 07:12:06 pm
Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery …


Bamforth as mentioned now works for a Low oxygen brewery …


I found the fact that Dr Bamforth is now the Senior QC Advisor at Sierra Nevada interesting given his past comments. So, I sent Dr Smith a note asking if he could follow up with Dr Bamforth. He graciously did.

In reply Dr Bamforth sent an article he wrote for Brewer and Distiller dtd June 2021 based on the paper given to the 36th Biennial Convention of the IBD Asia-Pacific Section, March 2021. Much of the information remains the same as past information as that from BeerSmith podcasts and other interviews.

Within the article there is a statement that fairly accurately describes the entire article: “…keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.”

I found this interesting:  “Bear in mind that some people have recently suggested (contrary to what has long been supposed) that copper is not as big a negative as is iron.”

However, there was one noticeable change (“softening”) from past interviews: under the heading Avoiding oxygen pick up during the process it says “I suggest that common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress are worthwhile, albeit less relevant than minimising oxygen level in the final package.” [emphasis is mine]

He ends the article in a very familiar way “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”

I have been accused of cherry picking information to suit my argument. I refute that claim but feel free to look up and read the complete article for yourself. 

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Excellent information.  Thank you very much for your effort.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 08, 2021, 07:41:52 pm
Bamforth did say that a while ago but softened it later (a closer while ago) to "the cold side oxidation is much more important".
Now, he's the QC director at a low-oxygen brewery …


Bamforth as mentioned now works for a Low oxygen brewery …


I found the fact that Dr Bamforth is now the Senior QC Advisor at Sierra Nevada interesting given his past comments. So, I sent Dr Smith a note asking if he could follow up with Dr Bamforth. He graciously did.

In reply Dr Bamforth sent an article he wrote for Brewer and Distiller dtd June 2021 based on the paper given to the 36th Biennial Convention of the IBD Asia-Pacific Section, March 2021. Much of the information remains the same as past information as that from BeerSmith podcasts and other interviews.

Within the article there is a statement that fairly accurately describes the entire article: “…keeping the beer cold is a far better bet for keeping the product fresh than is all the tinkering the brewer can do with malts and brewhouse oxidation.”

I found this interesting:  “Bear in mind that some people have recently suggested (contrary to what has long been supposed) that copper is not as big a negative as is iron.”

However, there was one noticeable change (“softening”?) from past interviews: under the heading Avoiding oxygen pick up during the process it says “I suggest that common-sense protocols for avoiding obvious air ingress are worthwhile, albeit less relevant than minimising oxygen level in the final package.” [emphasis is mine]. He goes on to name several of these common-sense approaches.

He ends the article in a very familiar way “Keep out the oxygen from the final package and keep the beer cold. And minimise the time from production to consumption. Worry about these things before anything else.”

I have been accused of cherry picking information to suit my argument. I refute that claim but feel free to look up and read the complete article for yourself. 

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Thanks so much for taking the time!
Much appreciated 
For context, it's also important to mention that Bamforth has always stated that his observations apply to pro brewing.
And exposure to oxygen given the square-cube law is much, much lower in pro brewing vs home brewing, everything else being the same.
Cheers!




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Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 08, 2021, 07:45:32 pm
Excellent information.  Thank you very much for your effort.



Thanks so much for taking the time!
Much appreciated 
For context, it's also important to mention that Bamforth has always stated that his observations apply to pro brewing.
And exposure to oxygen given the square-cube law is much, much lower in pro brewing vs home brewing, everything else being the same.
Cheers!

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Absolutely. He makes it clear that he’s not a homebrewer in every interview I’ve heard.

I’m still researching that square-cube law. (when an object increases in size, it’s volume increases faster that it’s area). Makes sense. They use larger vessels so surface area is smaller in relation to volume than our little vessels.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: Richard on June 08, 2021, 10:05:07 pm
It isn't really a law, it's just a scaling relation. If it was a law there would be people trying to figure out how to break it...
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 09, 2021, 06:49:40 am
Quote

It's not doubt CSA is more important. Because you will NEVER see the benefits of one without the other. You will only ever see the effects of HSA, if there is no CSA.
Malt and Hop antioxidants (flavor positive), can only be there if the beer is not oxidized, since thats how antioxidants work.


As I said is no doubt packaging proficiency is utmost and work back from there. The easiest way is to take a pale ale/ipa, package it, if you do not see ANY hop fade/flavor change during the ENTIRE life of it, thats a good start. Hop fade and flavor change IS oxidation.

Since we are on the Bamforth train...Excerpts from his "Freshness" (2017) book.
(https://i.imgur.com/o2chI4l.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/M7yLFr2.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/HXbAVmS.png)

Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 09, 2021, 07:38:32 am
Thanks for the reference. I see no inconsistency between what’s listed in bold which are his “primary concerns” and his past comments. …even from his article published this month. The text that is italicized is a “secondary concern” and normal text is of “less concern” and may (his emphasis) help.



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: narcout on June 09, 2021, 07:44:01 am
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 09, 2021, 07:50:34 am
Thanks for the reference. I see no inconsistency between what’s listed in bold which are his “primary concerns” and his past comments. …even from his article published this month. The text that is italicized is a “secondary concern” and normal text is of “less concern” and may (his emphasis) help.



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Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 09, 2021, 07:54:34 am
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...

I think it is marketed by Null-Lox by Viking Malt. I haven't run across it at my local shops web pages. May have to look harder online.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 09, 2021, 07:55:42 am
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...

I think it is marketed by Null-Lox by Viking Malt. I haven't run across it at my local shops web pages. May have to look harder online.

Cargill also makes one as well.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: narcout on June 09, 2021, 08:03:35 am
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Is that 100% confirmed?  It's something I have long wondered about.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: denny on June 09, 2021, 08:04:46 am
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Is that 100% confirmed?  It's something I have long wondered about.

At SN, yes they do.  Saw it when I was there years ago.
Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 09, 2021, 08:09:25 am
LODO thoughts.
This works if you're making a Helles, German Pilsner, Kölsch, or other beer with a large % of Pilsner malt. Oxidation of the Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzymes will give the Herbstoff (bitter stuff) that I can get in many US attempts at these beers.

Have you ever tried the no-LOX pils malt that is available?  I don't know if it's any good, but it does exist.

I know LOX is just one consideration of many (not suggesting it as a replacement for a full LODO protocol)...
I have a dislike for Pils malt probably due to to the Herbstoff. I’ve found Mecca Grade ‘Pilsner-style’ malt doesn’t give me the objectionable taste. Maybe the Full Pint barley they use has less of something (Lipoxygenase (LOX) enzyme?) that Continental barley does or the method they use to malt develops less.



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Title: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 09, 2021, 08:23:38 am

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 09, 2021, 09:36:45 am

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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Not sure why the snippyness? Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

But I seem to be the only one who HAS to support my position, which is interesting.
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: lupulus on June 09, 2021, 10:09:38 am
It isn't really a law, it's just a scaling relation. If it was a law there would be people trying to figure out how to break it...
I know you are joking
It's a mathematical principle but it's commonly known as a "law".

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: erockrph on June 09, 2021, 10:23:17 am
Quote

It's not doubt CSA is more important. Because you will NEVER see the benefits of one without the other. You will only ever see the effects of HSA, if there is no CSA.
Malt and Hop antioxidants (flavor positive), can only be there if the beer is not oxidized, since thats how antioxidants work.


As I said is no doubt packaging proficiency is utmost and work back from there. The easiest way is to take a pale ale/ipa, package it, if you do not see ANY hop fade/flavor change during the ENTIRE life of it, thats a good start. Hop fade and flavor change IS oxidation.

Since we are on the Bamforth train...Excerpts from his "Freshness" (2017) book.
(https://i.imgur.com/o2chI4l.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/M7yLFr2.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/HXbAVmS.png)
Thanks for sharing this - lots of cool food for thought here, including some factors that I either wasn't aware of or haven't considered.

Re: inactivation of LOX at saccharification temps - if this is the case, wouldn't mashing in warmer to ensure rapid denaturation of LOX address most of the concerns we have? I see 65C(149F) given as the denaturation temp for malt LOX, so if we target a mash-in temp in the low or mid 150s, wouldn't that inactivate LOX before it can create problems?

The other point I didn't realize was that dry hops can potentially add divalent metal cations. A) I wonder is this is why I get a metallic character from some hop varieties, and B) I wonder if adding BTB along with dry hop additions would be beneficial.

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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: BrewBama on June 09, 2021, 11:01:03 am

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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Not sure why the snippyness? Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

But I seem to be the only one who HAS to support my position, which is interesting.
It wasn’t meant to be snippy. I apologize if it came across that way.

All I am saying is you’re using folks that don’t seem to support your position given statements they’ve made in writing or interviews as strongly as SN’s practices would. Maybe you should use SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s wrings to support your position.

I absolutely don’t believe you are the only one who has to support your position at all. I supported mine with quotes from several sources but you didn’t accept them.  I’ve even agreed with you but you don’t accept it either. So… I think we’re at an impasse.



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Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hmbrw4life on June 09, 2021, 12:19:04 pm

Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

Not surprising. They must allow individual thought at SN.  He consistently praises Ken Grossman and the Sierra Nevada breweries and their products.

Maybe you should cite SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s writings to support your position.

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Not sure why the snippyness? Perhaps I am reading this wrong?

But I seem to be the only one who HAS to support my position, which is interesting.
It wasn’t meant to be snippy. I apologize if it came across that way.

All I am saying is you’re using folks that don’t seem to support your position given statements they’ve made in writing or interviews as strongly as SN’s practices would. Maybe you should use SN practices vs Dr Bamforth’s wrings to support your position.

I absolutely don’t believe you are the only one who has to support your position at all. I supported mine with quotes from several sources but you didn’t accept them.  I’ve even agreed with you but you don’t accept it either. So… I think we’re at an impasse.



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Now wait here, you brought up Bamforth, it's your citing of his words (and subsequent clarification) that was the start of all the bamforth talk.
Never did I once reject your sources, only offered a forrest instead of a tree of reasoning. I even showed some excerpts from his book, that corroborated with you.
The individual thought comment, as well is confusing. You think the senior QA advisor doesn't have some say in beer production?

We are only at an impasse because you think we at odds. I have kept everything I have said pretty inert(pun intended).
Title: Re: Experimental Brewing 133 - Dave's Definitely Here, Man
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 09, 2021, 03:15:06 pm
Thanks for the reference. I see no inconsistency between what’s listed in bold which are his “primary concerns” and his past comments. …even from his article published this month. The text that is italicized is a “secondary concern” and normal text is of “less concern” and may (his emphasis) help.



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Whats funny/Ironic is that SN Does most if not all the things on the hot side he doesn't bold.

Wet mill with deoxgenated water? Check
Use a Pre-masher? Check
Mash with deoxgenated water? Check

Anywho.

They have N2 supplied to the wet mill.

All of the brewing water in the brewery is Deoxygenated.