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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Saccharomyces on October 31, 2021, 01:32:15 pm

Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 31, 2021, 01:32:15 pm
Like a lot of older brewers, I have avoided dry yeast like the plague.  I maintained a yeast bank on agar slants for a long time.  However, my current lifestyle does not afford me that luxury.  What I have discovered that dry yeast while not exceptional on the initial pitch can be trained to under selective pressure to perform as I want.  It is a situation of good enough!  What is your take on dry yeast?
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on October 31, 2021, 01:42:25 pm
Im a relatively new brewer but in two years ive brewed about 75 batches of beer. And Ive tried a slew of different liquid yeasts from white labs and Wyeast and a few from Imperial. That being said Ive ventured into using Dry yeast recently, Ive started working tons of overtime the last few months and Ive noticed a few things. The brew day and the prep the night before brew day is a lot more streamlined and easier when your using dry yeast. I have never received a pack of dry yeast that has not worked or its viability was questionable. And a few of the cellar science strains particularly their sachet called Nectar was more estery and flavorful than many of the english strains I have used that were from White Labs or Wyeast. Many of those liquid strains I’ve tried in different beers at different fermentation  temps and at different pitch rates.

With the huge selection available to you in this day and age why not try it? After all its just making beer at home. Hell ive even been making beer that I like with LME.

Lallemand seems to be coming out with a lot of different strains over the last two years.


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on October 31, 2021, 02:06:45 pm
I use dry as often as I can, as long as it will give the results I'm looking for.  Mainly BRY-97 and Diamond lager.
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on October 31, 2021, 02:12:14 pm
I like the variety you can get with liquid yeast. But, with no local liquid yeast vendors, I usually avoid potential shipping problems and higher shipping costs and go with dry.

I like

Bry-97 for American Ales.
Mangrove Jack’s M36 for porters.
34/70 for lagers.

I am still working my way through some of the newer English alternatives (Verdant, American East Coast) and a few co-pitch options. I also need to try Diamond and S-189 again. I liked both the one time I used them.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Megary on October 31, 2021, 02:30:25 pm
Just a matter of what might get me where I’m hoping to go.  Sometimes it’s liquid, sometimes dry.  Of the dry yeasts I have used a fair amount:
BRY-97 - easily my favorite dry yeast.  Very dependable, clean, usually finishes dry for me, which I prefer.  So versatile as well, fits many styles.
Windsor - for English Porters, this has served me well.
S-04 - I’ve never got on well here.  Always seems to be lacking something. Very ho-hum, always leaves the beer feeling a bit unfinished.
US-05 - always dependable, but no reason I’d ever pick it again over BRY-97.
Belle Saison - dependable, attenuates like nobody’s business, flavors are just ok though.
London - very solid all around, I like it in Brown Ales for giving the malt a bit of a boost.

Given the cost, reliability, ease of use, storage, and versatility…I use dry probably 75% of the time.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on October 31, 2021, 02:34:26 pm
Just a matter of what might get me where I’m hoping to go.  Sometimes it’s liquid, sometimes dry.  Of the dry yeasts I have used a fair amount:
BRY-97 - easily my favorite dry yeast.  Very dependable, clean, usually finishes dry for me, which I prefer.  So versatile as well, fits many styles.
Windsor - for English Porters, this has served me well.
S-04 - I’ve never got on well here.  Always seems to be lacking something. Very ho-hum, always leaves the beer feeling a bit unfinished.
US-05 - always dependable, but no reason I’d ever pick it again over BRY-97.
Belle Saison - dependable, attenuates like nobody’s business, flavors are just ok though.
London - very solid all around, I like it in Brown Ales for giving the malt a bit of a boost.

Given the cost, reliability, ease of use, storage, and versatility…I use dry probably 75% of the time.

I think that % is about right for me, too.  A majority of what I brew these days is either WCIPA, or test batches where I need dependable, reliable, predictable yeast to eliminate it as a variable when I'm testing other ingredients.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: chinaski on October 31, 2021, 02:48:13 pm
I use both.  I often save and re-pitch slurries of either and tend to plan my recipe around the slurries I've got.

I assume that the reason there are a lot more strains available as liquid is the manufacturing infrastructure required to produce dry yeast?  Or are some strains just not suited for being produced in dry form?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on October 31, 2021, 03:44:59 pm
The two dry culture that with which I have had the best luck are BRY-97 and Diamond Lager.  I have plans to try S-23.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: RC on October 31, 2021, 04:15:26 pm
I'm a relatively recent convert to using dry yeast almost exclusively. I was a holdout for a long time; I am one of those older brewers who remembers how bad dry yeast used to be, and the negative perception was hard to shake. But after hearing so much praise for dry yeast on this forum, I expanded my horizons. Very glad I did.

I use liquid on select occasions, namely for when I make my Mexican pale lager and hefeweizen. WLP940 doesn't have a dry equivalent yet and Munich Classic makes awful hefeweizen.

My go-to's are BRY-97, S-189, and 34/70--although I will be using Diamond in place of 34/70 for upcoming batches, to give it a test drive.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Megary on October 31, 2021, 04:39:33 pm
I'm a relatively recent convert to using dry yeast almost exclusively. I was a holdout for a long time; I am one of those older brewers who remembers how bad dry yeast used to be, and the negative perception was hard to shake. But after hearing so much praise for dry yeast on this forum, I expanded my horizons. Very glad I did.

I use liquid on select occasions, namely for when I make my Mexican pale lager and hefeweizen. WLP940 doesn't have a dry equivalent yet and Munich Classic makes awful hefeweizen.

My go-to's are BRY-97, S-189, and 34/70--although I will be using Diamond in place of 34/70 for upcoming batches, to give it a test drive.

I used Munich Classic once in a Dunkelweizen and it was pretty rough. I assumed I fouled up the fermentation in some way, but after reading your comment, now I’m not so sure.  :D
Doesn’t matter I suppose because I’m unlikely to ever use it again.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: lupulus on October 31, 2021, 04:42:08 pm
Not sure you can resolve this discussion with anecdotal evidence.

There's no recent literature I know in the subject, so it seems it's up to the brewer.

Extremely good pro brewers have smaller lag time with liquid yeast, but for the average homebrewer out there may have more consistency with dry yeast.

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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: HopDen on October 31, 2021, 04:56:10 pm
It's really a seasonal thing for me. I have been burnt purchasing liquid yeast in the warmer months after paying for shipping ice packs but they arrive fully thawed. So for that reason, I mainly only use liquid in the late fall/winter. I can get from my LHBS with no issues though.

At this point though I prefer dry yeast. Its easier and I don't have to make a starter. I can collect the slurry after cold crash and use again and again w/o worry or add directly on top of a yeast pancake. I have used 34/70 for 11 generations w/o perceptible issues. I don't have to worry about adding O2 prior to pitching. I mainly make lagers using 34/70, S-189, S23 and more recently Diamond Lager with what I would say are excellent results.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on October 31, 2021, 05:46:36 pm
I’ve been using dry yeast exclusively for a cpl yrs now. Some I like and others I don’t. I use Bry-97 mostly but I use a few others like S-04, ESB, W 34/70 from time to time. I’ve never heard someone keeping liquid yeast just in case the dry yeast fails like I do the other way around. It just works every time.



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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bob357 on November 01, 2021, 12:23:10 am
I went back to using dry yeasts almost exclusively about 6 or 8 years ago and never looked back. In the past, Lallemand and Fermentis were my go to brands. About 4 years ago, I discovered Mangrove Jack's and now, M15, M36, M42 and M44 are my staples. I do, on occasion, use Notty or BRY-97 as well and have tried several newer varieties. I brew a lot of APAs and West Coast IPAs, as well as an occasional British style, so almost never need to go with liquid to fit style.

Except for the Nottingham packaging problems several years back, my results using dry yeasts have been great. Add that to the convenience, storage stability, shelf life and price factors, and dry wins every time in my book.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: purduekenn on November 01, 2021, 05:26:02 am
I mostly use dry yeast because I'm far from a homebrew store. I've had good luck with the following dry yeasts:  BRY-97, Diamond Lager, Windsor, 34/70, and S-189.  However I greatly prefer liquid yeasts for Belgian Ales and will buy several packs when I get a chance while visiting friends. They have performed well for me. I also enjoyed the new Lallemand Philly sour yeast this summer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 01, 2021, 08:31:46 am
I use both.  I often save and re-pitch slurries of either and tend to plan my recipe around the slurries I've got.

I assume that the reason there are a lot more strains available as liquid is the manufacturing infrastructure required to produce dry yeast?  Or are some strains just not suited for being produced in dry form?

I'm told it's because there are strains that won't survive the drying process.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 01, 2021, 08:51:26 am
I use dry as often as I can, as long as it will give the results I'm looking for.  Mainly BRY-97 and Diamond lager.
The only liquid yeast that I've used in years was 1450 in a Wry Smile.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: erockrph on November 01, 2021, 09:48:48 am
I'm using about 80% dry yeast at the moment. I have dry yeast strains that fill most of the slots in my toolkit, but there are a few times year where I what a specific flavor from a specific yeast. This is usually for English ales where each yeast strain has its own flavor profile, and I am generally in the mood for something specific. Windsor or Windsor/Notty works well enough if I'm not having a specific craving, but if I want the flavor profile of 1469, 1968, WLP013, etc., then there is no dry option. I've also enjoyed some of the newer strains that Omega has been putting out, so those are the other liquid options I use.

I don't have a LHBS that sells liquid yeast, and most of my brew days are done on short notice. Even if I preferred liquid yeast (which isn't necessarily the case for many of the beers I brew), the convenience of dry yeast makes it my go-to. At any given time I have at least 1 pack of BRY-97, US-05, New England IPA, S-189, 34/70 and Windsor, plus D47 and 71B for cider/mead/other. I also have packets of Diamond, Verdant IPA, and dry Lutra that I am looking forward to try soon. Times are good for dry yeast users right now.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 01, 2021, 10:08:54 am

I'm told it's because there are strains that won't survive the drying process.

definitely. there are even differences in survivability for liquid yeasts it seems, with people reporting that the generic expiration/production date + x months doesn't reliably ensure survivability for some strains




I used Munich Classic once in a Dunkelweizen and it was pretty rough. I assumed I fouled up the fermentation in some way, but after reading your comment, now I’m not so sure.  :D
Doesn’t matter I suppose because I’m unlikely to ever use it again.

yeah, i agree though. a lot of people recommend munich classic, and it sort of checks the boxes for what you'd expect in a weizen yeast, but same, unexpectedly harsh.



tbh sacch, i think there already is a thread where people throw out their fave dry yeast strains. i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it well.


ive been noticing dry yeast prices slowly rising, especially the lager ones. right now at my online store W34/70 is about $8.50, this sort of negates one of the advantages of dry yeast.

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/saflager-s-189-dry-lager-yeast.html

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/lallemand-kolsch-koln.html - $7



Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Visor on November 01, 2021, 11:58:36 am
  I use dry or harvest dry almost exclusively, I don't think I've brewed anything with liquid in at least 2 years. If I could get liquid yeast while it was still alive and viable there are a couple I certainly use, but it's always dead by the time it gets here - no matter how many ice packs I pay for. US-05 and 34/70 make most of my beer but I also like BE-256 for some big beers. I did a few split ferments with 05/Bry 97 & really couldn't tell a difference so I saw no reason to switch. I've also split 05 with S-04, M-44, Liberty Bell and a whole bunch of other non similar yeasts like Lallbrew Kolsch, M-15, Notty & Lallbrew London ESB, and always like the 05 beers better. Same thing with 34/70, in the splits I've done with S-23, S-189 and M-76, the 34/70 beers were more to my liking. I do have a package of Diamond Lager but haven't gotten around to trying it yet.
   I'd love to have a viable pack of Wy-1728 again but have given up hope of that unless and until I happen to be in a town that's big enough to have a good LBHS.
   I can't stand sour beers so T-58, BE-135, Belle Saison and to a lesser extent K-97 did not make beers I wanted to drink. I was told recently by a pro brewer that K-97 is supposed to be a Kolsch yeast, I wonder if Dave or any of the yeast gurus would chime in on that.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Wilbur on November 01, 2021, 12:33:41 pm
Meads-Dry Yeast
Beer-75/25 Liquid/dry
10-15 batches a year (Some split)

I've not been impressed with the dry lager yeasts (S-23, 34/70) that I've tried, OYL-114 Bayern Lager just seems to hit all the right notes for me.
I've been having a lot of fun doing some split batches with different yeasts, and dry yeasts just don't have the variety. I try and keep some on hand for emergencies or if I'm just trying to hit the easy button.

I'm trying BRY-97, and I'll probably grab packet of dried Lutra as a backup. Buying a 4 pack of Propper starter and a few liquid yeasts seems to let me have more fun. Ritebrew in Wisconsin offers Speedee Delivery, so I can get 1-2 day shipping for less than $10 for very fresh yeast. The price gap between dry and liquid seems to be shrinking over the last few years.

https://c.tenor.com/-icsGiNSb3MAAAAC/speedy-delivery.gif (https://c.tenor.com/-icsGiNSb3MAAAAC/speedy-delivery.gif)


Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bob357 on November 01, 2021, 02:12:53 pm
I've been getting most of my dry ale yeasts for $3.99/packet from William's brewing and YVH.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 01, 2021, 03:32:22 pm
I use dry as often as I can, as long as it will give the results I'm looking for.  Mainly BRY-97 and Diamond lager.

I second the vote for Diamond Lager. Full disclosure...it is only dry on the initial pitch out of the package.
We then harvest it for succeeding brews. I think we have one now that is the 9th or 10th generation.
So in the end we are using a harvested slurry, that originated from a dry package.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 01, 2021, 03:47:18 pm
I have actually gone the other way lately, using more liquid yeast than previously (say 10% of the time), partly because the availability of the Omega Yeast here in the Chicago area.  It comes super fresh to my LHBS and is now packaged in pitchable pouches, where no starter is necessary, except for the unusual large beer (I make mostly lower ABV beers with under 1.050 OG, often under 1.040 OG).  I still use mostly dry yeast, with Diamond coming in this year about a dead heat with S-189 as my most used yeast (mostly lagers, but occasionally a Brit Ordinary Bitter with an Omega Brit Strain).

I tried the dry ESB when it came out a couple years back, but I wasn't enamored with it.  I should try it again to see if my palate has shifted on the Brit OB's...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 01, 2021, 04:28:25 pm
I have actually gone the other way lately, using more liquid yeast than previously (say 10% of the time), partly because the availability of the Omega Yeast here in the Chicago area.  It comes super fresh to my LHBS and is now packaged in pitchable pouches, where no starter is necessary, except for the unusual large beer (I make mostly lower ABV beers with under 1.050 OG, often under 1.040 OG).  I still use mostly dry yeast, with Diamond coming in this year about a dead heat with S-189 as my most used yeast (mostly lagers, but occasionally a Brit Ordinary Bitter with an Omega Brit Strain).

I tried the dry ESB when it came out a couple years back, but I wasn't enamored with it.  I should try it again to see if my palate has shifted on the Brit OB's...

That is my problem with dry yeast.  There are no truly exceptional British cultures available.  For a while, it looked like Verdant was promising, but it appears that interest in the culture is waning.  I am more a of British-style ale brewer than an American-style ale brewer. Windsor and London are maltotriose crippled.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 01, 2021, 04:34:52 pm
Count us as being lucky. Brewing mostly Euro Style Lagers, the Diamond yeast is a hands down winner!

The ales we brew are few and far between. But they are BIG beers, with an ABV of 10.8%. And we used S04.

I used to be a liquid yeast snob, but not any more.
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 01, 2021, 05:14:12 pm
I have actually gone the other way lately, using more liquid yeast than previously (say 10% of the time), partly because the availability of the Omega Yeast here in the Chicago area.  It comes super fresh to my LHBS and is now packaged in pitchable pouches, where no starter is necessary, except for the unusual large beer (I make mostly lower ABV beers with under 1.050 OG, often under 1.040 OG).  I still use mostly dry yeast, with Diamond coming in this year about a dead heat with S-189 as my most used yeast (mostly lagers, but occasionally a Brit Ordinary Bitter with an Omega Brit Strain).

I tried the dry ESB when it came out a couple years back, but I wasn't enamored with it.  I should try it again to see if my palate has shifted on the Brit OB's...

That is my problem with dry yeast.  There are no truly exceptional British cultures available.  For a while, it looked like Verdant was promising, but it appears that interest in the culture is waning.  I am more a of British-style ale brewer than an American-style ale brewer. Windsor and London are maltotriose crippled.
What about copitching Windsor and Nottingham? I just tried that. I am still waiting on the results…
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 01, 2021, 07:54:13 pm
Dry yeast has so many advantages over liquid yeast that it makes me wish I could use it for every beer style and every recipe under the sun.  And so over time, I have been trying almost every yeast available from the big two: Lallemand and Fermentis.

By & large, dry yeasts have come a long long way over just the past 5-10 years.  If you haven’t tried a dry yeast in a while, it’s time to give it another go.

For example, there are some who hate S-04.  And I used to dislike it as well, finding it to be sulfury and a bit finicky.  However recently I have given it a chance a couple more times, and now find it to be extremely clean and lager-like, and an excellent competitor against US-05, Nottingham, and even – gasp – W-34/70!  Try it again, you might like it.  It’s very clean and NOT fruity.  Should be suitable for any style really where you do not want the yeast to stand out.  Indeed, I think I am all done with US-05 now (after using it a dozen times or more), and from here on out will begin using S-04 for any recipe where US-05 is specified.

Unfortunately, on occasion, some dry yeasts come with a specific disadvantage: tartness.  Why this is exactly, personally I am not certain, except that I know it to be true.  People have at some point reported tartness with just about every dry yeast strain, but perhaps none moreso than K-97, which is often (usually?) a sour yeasty mess for many months.  As such I cannot recommend its use.  It is in fact derived from real-life Kolsch yeast, but… something apparently goes wrong in the drying process to make it unworthy.  It’s too bad.  I wish it were good, but it isn’t, in MY opinion.

And I experience a similar phenomenon with WB-06, which by the way is not a German yeast at all but a Belgian with mild phenolics.  But again, tart and hazy and generally just not as great as its liquid counterparts.

For years I have been promoting S-189 as being superior to W-34/70, and I maintain this stance.  That being said… I finally in my last batch split it between S-189 and the Lallemand Diamond strain… and while I find the results to be very very similar, I can’t help but recognize that the Diamond strain adds a German lager authenticity that simply is not present with S-189.  The S-189 is super clean to the point of blandness, as it just doesn’t add any unusual character at all, even when fermented at room temperature, whereas Diamond yeast gives a lager that actually tastes “German”.  There are some who understand this distinction, and to those people, I recommend that you give Diamond a try if you haven’t yet.

Unfortunately I have not brewed many Belgian styles in recent years, and I know I want to try much more.  So my own input on those is a little more up in the air.  Two yeasts I have tried included T-58 and BE-256, and I have to say… I was rather NOT impressed with either one.  So I’ll be moving on to BE-134 in near future.  I do love Belle Saison, it’s clean but super dry and still characterful enough to win medals for myself and friends, so take care not to dismiss it too easily.

If they sold Mangrove Jack anywhere, I’d be buying and trying those as well, knowing that they are really just repackaged from other manufacturers, but with perhaps a somewhat reduced price.  But I haven’t seen these around much, at least not in my area.  I would not for one second hesitate to buy some though if I could find it and the price was right.

The following yeasts are all very closely related and very similar, and these hold a place in my toolbox when I want a lower alcohol beer and/or for it to finish fermenting in 40 hours flat guaranteed: S-33, Muntons, Windsor, and Lallemand London (“ESB”).  People might complain that the attenuation on these is poor and FG is too high; however, this is desirable in some recipes.  It’s a tool.  I really have enjoyed the beers I’ve made with London in particular.

If I had to declare a winner, I think Lallemand has got Fermentis beat by a hair.  But there are many great Fermentis strains as well, many of which are mentioned above for a reason.  I have not and will not commit loyalty to any one brand.  I still use both White Labs and Wyeast frequently as well.  I’ve not tried Omega or Imperial yet, but am not against the idea and eventually will.  A small part of the reason I study all the yeast strains available to us is so that I can more easily make substitutions between manufacturers, because, how many times have you really NEEDED to get one yeast strain in particular, only to find that it’s not available right now, or past its expiration, etc.  So why not try the best possible substitute if there is another strain comes “close enough for most intents & purposes”?  And the comparative pricing comes into play often as well, for those of us who pinch pennies (just a habit for me).

I love to split every batch and almost always try two different yeasts for comparisons.  I’ve learned a lot doing this, and suggest anyone else interested should try the same.

Cheers and happy yeasting (whatever that means).  :)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 01, 2021, 08:02:52 pm
What about copitching Windsor and Nottingham? I just tried that. I am still waiting on the results…

While better than nothing, the combo still does not scream British.  When the dry yeast propagators produce a culture that can compete with Wyeast 1968, Wyeast 1469, Wyeast 1275, or BrewTek CL-160, I will give up using liquid and cultured yeast. Lallemand Verdant IPA comes close, but my one and only experience with the culture left me wanting. Verdant IPA is a culture that makes Wyeast 1007 look like it produces a small head. It requires a fermentation vessel with a lot of head space.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 01, 2021, 08:14:43 pm
I agree with everyone with respect to Diamond Lager. Lallemand hit it out of the park with this culture. It is easily the best dry culture currently being propagated. My initial pitch of Diamond Lager made a good festbier, but my first repitch the culture produced a amazing Vienna. The culture is still waiting to be repitched a second time. I would never recommend Fermentis W-34/70 over Diamond Lager. I am not a fan of the tartness and finish W-34/70 produces.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ttash on November 01, 2021, 10:22:13 pm
I get the same tartness others have mentioned using W34/70, it's subtle, but definitely there, so now I use Diamond. I'm amazed at how good it is.
For clean ales BRY-97 does the trick every time.
I still haven't found a dry English strain that I  really like, nothing that gives me the character I get from WY1968, but I'll keep looking.
For phenolic strains like Belgian or Hefeweizen it's liquid yeasts only because in my experience dry cultures don't even come close.
Right now I'm using dry yeast 90% of the time.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: MDL on November 02, 2021, 01:55:45 am
Bry97 and Diamond lager for most of my beers now. Tried Munich classic but prefer 3068 for Hefeweizen. The Munich classic was too phenolic and too flocculant.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 02, 2021, 08:31:44 am
Dave, S189 is the Hurliman yeast, so I wouldn't expect it to be a liit like Diamond.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 02, 2021, 08:57:56 am
I get the same tartness others have mentioned using W34/70, it's subtle, but definitely there, so now I use Diamond. I'm amazed at how good it is.
For clean ales BRY-97 does the trick every time.
I still haven't found a dry English strain that I  really like, nothing that gives me the character I get from WY1968, but I'll keep looking.
For phenolic strains like Belgian or Hefeweizen it's liquid yeasts only because in my experience dry cultures don't even come close.
Right now I'm using dry yeast 90% of the time.
I’ve been trying dry English yeast options. But, I think I eventually will just go to buying a pack of 1968 each winter and keeping the slurry alive through the summer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 02, 2021, 09:17:31 am
I wish rite brew would carry diamond because their prices are more in line with what I want. I still use 34/70 and 189 because of this...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 02, 2021, 09:20:17 am

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
[/quote]
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 02, 2021, 09:23:19 am
I wish rite brew would carry diamond because their prices are more in line with what I want. I still use 34/70 and 189 because of this...
Keep an eye on Label Peelers for sales. Their price on dry yeast includes free shipping via the post office.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 02, 2021, 05:02:53 pm
I wish rite brew would carry diamond because their prices are more in line with what I want. I still use 34/70 and 189 because of this...
Keep an eye on Label Peelers for sales. Their price on dry yeast includes free shipping via the post office.

The only issue with Label Peelers is their stock tends to be old. But some here say age is no issue...and that's what I tell my wife.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 02, 2021, 07:07:19 pm
I just had an amazing revelation....... I just finished off a pint of my Diamond dunkel, and while it was very good, it had a lingering tartness which I think is my own fault, the mash pH turned out way too low but I just let it ride that way through the whole brewing and fermentation...... but then near the end of drinking this pint, I wondered, what happens if I dip my finger into some baking soda and mix that in.  WOW, what a difference that made!!!  Turned a good beer into a great one!!!  I'm amazed at what that did.  I ran a few numbers, and it seems... I should be able to duplicate this again by adding about 1/64 tsp baking soda in each pint.  I'll experiment with this to see how well it works.  And next time... well jeez... anytime I plan to use any dry yeast, I shall do what I know is right and mash at about 5.6 to 5.7 instead of letting it ride at 5.3, which is just too low (flamers be damned).

Cheers all.
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on November 02, 2021, 07:11:17 pm
I just had an amazing revelation....... I just finished off a pint of my Diamond dunkel, and while it was very good, it had a lingering tartness which I think is my own fault, the mash pH turned out way too low but I just let it ride that way through the whole brewing and fermentation...... but then near the end of drinking this pint, I wondered, what happens if I dip my finger into some baking soda and mix that in.  WOW, what a difference that made!!!  Turned a good beer into a great one!!!  I'm amazed at what that did.  I ran a few numbers, and it seems... I should be able to duplicate this again by adding about 1/64 tsp baking soda in each pint.  I'll experiment with this to see how well it works.  And next time... well jeez... anytime I plan to use any dry yeast, I shall do what I know is right and mash at about 5.6 to 5.7 instead of letting it ride at 5.3, which is just too low (flamers be damned).

Cheers all.
I’m a 5.5 man myself (..or at least that’s my target)



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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 02, 2021, 08:39:03 pm
Count me as the "odd man out". Never took a pH reading. In decades of brewing.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ScallyWag on November 02, 2021, 09:13:18 pm
I'm a newbie and still rather inexperienced about beer styles in general (much less how to make them) so I have thus far stuck to dry yeasts only.  I'm experimenting mostly with malts, to learn those better, and a few basic dry yeasts, and once I feel like I have a better handle on who does what to my beer, maybe I'll expand into liquid yeasts. 

As it is, nearly every batch I do is a split-batch, with 2 or 3 small FVs, trying out the same grain bill with different yeasts. 

So far, I've tried US-05, Nottingham, Windsor, Verdant, Belle Saison, B-134, Kveik Voss, and various blends thereof.  Comparing them pairwise against each other, seeing which works best for me in what grain-bill.  So I am generally getting at least 3 different beers out of each mash. 

In queue but not yet tried, I have Diamond Lager, S-189 [waiting for winter temperatures], Munich Classic, and Danstar Abbaye.

Not really a fan of Nottingham; US-05 is sort of my basic blank canvas control condition, and my favorite so far is probably Windsor, but I'm thinking Verdant could soon be my new favorite. 

I don't have the discerning palate of most of you folks, but I am rather pleased (and frankly, surprised) at how much I like the beers I've made (except for one).  I'll bet I'd be perfectly happy with using just 3 or 4 different dry yeasts for the rest of my life (#BeerSlut) but it is fun to experiment, so I may eventually get around to trying liquid yeasts.  Not in a hurry though. 

That said, I do love reading the reviews and advice from all of you who are more experienced/discerning than I am.  It informs my choices and guides my experimentation. 
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 03, 2021, 04:44:52 am
To echo the above, we are at a point where 1 or perhaps 2 yeast types are all we use. Brewing nearly all lagers, the widely popular Diamond Lager yeast is our go-to brand. Everything from Vienna Lager to Bitter German Pils to Festbiers.
It has performed very well in a recent Schwartzbier.

The ale yeast used most recently is Fermentis S-04. English Ale. It did spectacular in two English Barleywines and an English Imperial Stout. These came in at over 10% ABV.

That's about it. Two yeasts are all we need. And these are dry yeasts. But as stated, we harvest the yeast multiple times. Each generation seems to perform better than the previous generation, especially after the initial pitch, that is, starting with the 2nd generation.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 03, 2021, 06:51:14 am
To echo the above, we are at a point where 1 or perhaps 2 yeast types are all we use.

Why limit yourself(ves)?
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on November 03, 2021, 07:24:22 am
To echo the above, we are at a point where 1 or perhaps 2 yeast types are all we use.

Why limit yourself(ves)?
The Paradox of Choice: Instead of increasing our freedom to have what we want, the paradox of choice suggests that having too many choices actually limits our freedom. Learning to choose is hard. Learning to choose well is harder. And learning to choose well in a world of unlimited possibilities is harder still, perhaps too hard.

In my case, I’d rather have extensive experience with a handful of strains that I am comfortable with and can count on consistent results than have to guess at predicted outcomes of too many options.

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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 03, 2021, 07:38:47 am
To echo the above, we are at a point where 1 or perhaps 2 yeast types are all we use.

Why limit yourself(ves)?

If he's like me, it's because he knows what he likes and expects. I stick to a few yeast strains and handful of styles/recipes.  I don't consider it limiting.  I consider it not wasting time brewing stuff I don't care for.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 03, 2021, 08:05:25 am
After playing the field for 22 years and narrowing my favorites, I see in my future brewing limited styles with limited ingredients.  It's starting to happen.  Been very slowly moving in that direction, but definitely moving in that direction.  Now that I've found Diamond, after I dabble a little more maybe with WLP833, I'll very soon be able to make a final decision on my favorite lager yeast and rarely try anything else.  I can see myself only using a handful of other yeasts in future, for various styles.  Regarding other ingredients including malts and hops, I still see a broad playground with the malts yet, but I can tell you that for many many years, I've been using Hallertau in almost every single batch, because (1) I grow it so I always have some on hand and (2) it's a wonderful noble hop that is great in ANY beer style.  When in doubt, I don't doubt, I just use Hallertau.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 03, 2021, 08:24:01 am
Regarding both Dave and Denny in the above posts, that’s where we are at now.
There are only two, maybe three different beers that we really enjoy. Yes, they are lagers, so it makes our choice very simple.

In the world of malts, we are willing to try new brands on a limited basis.

10 days ago we brewed up a German Pils with a 50/50 mix of Weyermann & Avangard.

Next up will be a pils brewed with malt from Texas.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Steve Ruch on November 03, 2021, 12:49:37 pm
I wish rite brew would carry diamond because their prices are more in line with what I want. I still use 34/70 and 189 because of this...
Keep an eye on Label Peelers for sales. Their price on dry yeast includes free shipping via the post office.

The only issue with Label Peelers is their stock tends to be old. But some here say age is no issue...and that's what I tell my wife.
I just got two packs of S-33 dated 6/23 from them.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 03, 2021, 04:10:40 pm
Against Denny's recommendation I am going to pitch S-23 in a Boh pilsner.  The description of this culture fits that of NCYC 679, which I can only assume was the house culture at the Stein Brewery in Bratislava. I have a lot of experience with that strain.  It has to be fermented at the bottom of its specified range to produce a good product.  It has a distinct flavor that I would describe as anything, but neutral.  It is unique.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 03, 2021, 04:35:29 pm
Against Denny's recommendation I am going to pitch S-23 in a Boh pilsner.  The description of this culture fits that of NCYC 679, which I can only assume was the house culture at the Stein Brewery in Bratislava. I have a lot of experience with that strain.  It has to be fermented at the bottom of its specified range to produce a good product.  It has a distinct flavor that I would describe as anything, but neutral.  It is unique.
I’ve had great beers made with s23 but have never used it myself. Please keep us updated.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 03, 2021, 05:16:53 pm
This past year or so I've used a lot of dry yeast. I do like Verdant IPA in British styles. I made a really tasty bitter with it earlier this summer that I put on nitro. I made a helles with Diamond lager that had some acetaldehyde I think. It was a 5 gallon batch, 1.046 OG, pitched 2 packs without rehydrating or aerating. Fermented at 55F. It was just not a good beer. But the subsequent beers I made from the slurry from that batch were great. I'm rehydrating all my lager yeast from now on.

The one and only yeast I wish was available in dry form is Irish Ale yeast. I actually prefer to use Wy1084 for all of my UK styles. I just love that yeast. If there was also an equivalent to Wy2206, that'd be great as well.
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 03, 2021, 05:38:14 pm
Against Denny's recommendation I am going to pitch S-23 in a Boh pilsner.  The description of this culture fits that of NCYC 679, which I can only assume was the house culture at the Stein Brewery in Bratislava. I have a lot of experience with that strain.  It has to be fermented at the bottom of its specified range to produce a good product.  It has a distinct flavor that I would describe as anything, but neutral.  It is unique.
I just used S-23 in a pre-prohibition pilsner. The beer came out pretty nice. It’s a honey lager and I feel like I can taste my brother in law’s honey. It’s pretty clean and definitely crisp. Different, maybe not as clean but more crisp, from 34/70 and Diamond.  Some days I think I might taste a faint fruit flavor. But, most days I don’t. 

I also read that the yeast should be used at low temps. I started fermentation around 48F. Fermentation started but moved very slowly (1-2 gravity points per day for several days). I finally gave up and raised the temp to the mid-fifties over a few days. Fermentation off course moved much faster after raising the temperature.

I am using that slurry now in an amber lager similar to Boston Lager. The amber lager will be kegged tomorrow. I tasted and it is very nice. The caramel malt and hops in that one may mask any fruity flavors though.

I am not sure if I will buy S-23 again. If the amber is good I might.  The amber could easily be considered an American Pale Ale with Sterling hops. If I like the amber I may try the slurry in an APA with cascade or similar. Gotta get my money’s worth…

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211103/b61434d7ed3e4d17b689f03020bf8f8d.png)
This is from my Tilt from my first S-23 ferment.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Joel5000 on November 03, 2021, 08:16:55 pm
I have actually gone the other way lately, using more liquid yeast than previously (say 10% of the time), partly because the availability of the Omega Yeast here in the Chicago area.  It comes super fresh to my LHBS and is now packaged in pitchable pouches, where no starter is necessary, except for the unusual large beer (I make mostly lower ABV beers with under 1.050 OG, often under 1.040 OG).  I still use mostly dry yeast, with Diamond coming in this year about a dead heat with S-189 as my most used yeast (mostly lagers, but occasionally a Brit Ordinary Bitter with an Omega Brit Strain).



I'm basically doing the same thing, except with Imperial yeast, not Omega. I rarely buy a pack more than a week past the manufacturing date, and it has only been shipped across town, not across the country. I'm always comfortable pitching it without a starter.
With that being said, I still use dry yeast maybe 25% of the time. Just kegged a Marzen with Diamond lager that is tasting great already. Still very hazy, but to be fair, it's only 3 weeks old. My go to lager yeast is Imperial Harvest.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BeerfanOz on November 03, 2021, 09:02:24 pm
I had a pouch of wyeast 2042 fail on me not long ago, so pitched S189. I really like 2042, but S189 has been great the last few lagers. I grabbed some Diamond lager, I don’t like 34/70, though there has been enough people mentioning their preference for Diamond over 34/70 that I thought I’d try it out.

I’ve used 95% liquid over the past 15 or so years but I do think some of the dry yeast now are very good. Made a great bitter with Verdant. Have another sachet for a similar beer soon.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Andy Farke on November 03, 2021, 11:50:09 pm

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.
[/quote]

I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 04, 2021, 07:48:42 am

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...
I have some of the Lallemand "Koln" yeast I'm looking forward to trying for an American wheat. Probably when the weather starts warming up in the spring.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 04, 2021, 08:49:56 am

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...
I have some of the Lallemand "Koln" yeast I'm looking forward to trying for an American wheat. Probably when the weather starts warming up in the spring.
I have some going in a cream ale type thing right now. I'm excited to see how it turns out. I used it once before in a kolsch and it seemed to do very well except the batch was ruined by chlorine/chloramine.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 04, 2021, 08:53:57 am
Against Denny's recommendation I am going to pitch S-23 in a Boh pilsner.  The description of this culture fits that of NCYC 679, which I can only assume was the house culture at the Stein Brewery in Bratislava. I have a lot of experience with that strain.  It has to be fermented at the bottom of its specified range to produce a good product.  It has a distinct flavor that I would describe as anything, but neutral.  It is unique.

I know people have made great beers with it.  I haven't. My results came from fermenting around 48-50.  I've been told people get better results warmer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 04, 2021, 11:36:09 am

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.

I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...
[/quote]

yup, i wish we could get some more crowdsourced opinions on k-97. i added my thoughts earlier on it. just because its imagined/commercially stated provenance is "german ale", doesnt mean it needs to explicitly be used for that purpose. its just a yeast.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Megary on November 04, 2021, 12:07:28 pm

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...

yup, i wish we could get some more crowdsourced opinions on k-97. i added my thoughts earlier on it. just because its imagined/commercially stated provenance is "german ale", doesnt mean it needs to explicitly be used for that purpose. its just a yeast.

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 04, 2021, 12:19:14 pm

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...

yup, i wish we could get some more crowdsourced opinions on k-97. i added my thoughts earlier on it. just because its imagined/commercially stated provenance is "german ale", doesnt mean it needs to explicitly be used for that purpose. its just a yeast.

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[
I didn't care for K97 at all. I got a tartness from it that I didn't care for.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 04, 2021, 12:56:34 pm

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...

yup, i wish we could get some more crowdsourced opinions on k-97. i added my thoughts earlier on it. just because its imagined/commercially stated provenance is "german ale", doesnt mean it needs to explicitly be used for that purpose. its just a yeast.

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[
I didn't care for K97 at all. I got a tartness from it that I didn't care for.

Same here.  My thoughts ranged from meh to no.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 04, 2021, 02:22:41 pm

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[

i expected sulfur based on what people were saying online, but i don't recall any, especially not major. i checked my notes on it and didnt see any sulfur mentioned.

what temperature/OG did you ferment at?



I didn't care for K97 at all. I got a tartness from it that I didn't care for.

do you remember what temperature you fermented it at or any other details? it is one of the least flocculent yeasts i can recall, i used gelatin and cold crashing to get it pretty clear though.



Same here.  My thoughts ranged from meh to no.

descriptive




i think im going to take one for the team and do a k-97 batch. im getting an obsession with it based on the decent beer it made for me and the extremely varied opinions people have about it and relatively little that gives extreme detail. i know dave described it as an overly bready flavour, which is clear, but i simply didn't get anything like that.



Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 04, 2021, 02:44:30 pm
Bready, doughy, yeasty, and tart are what I got from K-97.

This is an excellent example of how I decide whether I want to keep using a yeast or not:

Can I get a better beer from a different yeast than the yeast I used?  Yes?  Then I'm done using this yeast.  Not sure?  Then consider trying some more.

If I do away with a yeast, it might not be forever.  Maybe try it again 5 years later to see if I was mistaken.  I swear, some yeasts have seemed to change in quality in recent years, to where it might be worth trying some oldies again.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 04, 2021, 03:19:00 pm
I usually run my ale yeasts on the lower range of the recommended range. K97 was probably 62F or so. I wanted to like it so bad that I assumed my distaste for the batches I did was related to something else.

Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Megary on November 04, 2021, 04:52:35 pm

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[

i expected sulfur based on what people were saying online, but i don't recall any, especially not major. i checked my notes on it and didnt see any sulfur mentioned.

what temperature/OG did you ferment at?


My notes on that beer are pretty specific because I remember questioning myself:

“One pack into 3 gallons on transfer, 1.052.  Pitched @74F…too warm?  Dropped to 68 and then rose through fermentation back to 74. Massive krausen through blow off on Day2. Temp fell back to 68 over 2 weeks. Sulfur aroma that doesn’t translate to taste.”

I don’t remember any bready, tart flavors, but then again it was hard to get past the sulfur.  I did the keg purge thing and let the beer sit for a few weeks and it got better to the point of drinkability.  My wife couldn’t really detect it at that point and my daughter’s comment was “I don’t know dad, tastes like beer.”  But I never could get it out of my mind as I worked through the keg.   ;D

I’m certainly willing to accept blame for mishandling the yeast, wouldn’t be the first time, won’t be the last.  But after that beer I’ve made sure to get ale pitch temps into the mid 60’s.  Not saying for sure that pitching at 74 was the cause of the sulfur, but that’s what I’m blaming it on.  I’ve never experienced that aroma before or since and have made essentially the same recipe (Cream Ale) with US-05, K-97, WLP029 and BRy-97.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 04, 2021, 06:05:16 pm

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[

i expected sulfur based on what people were saying online, but i don't recall any, especially not major. i checked my notes on it and didnt see any sulfur mentioned.

what temperature/OG did you ferment at?


My notes on that beer are pretty specific because I remember questioning myself:

“One pack into 3 gallons on transfer, 1.052.  Pitched @74F…too warm?  Dropped to 68 and then rose through fermentation back to 74. Massive krausen through blow off on Day2. Temp fell back to 68 over 2 weeks. Sulfur aroma that doesn’t translate to taste.”

I don’t remember any bready, tart flavors, but then again it was hard to get past the sulfur.  I did the keg purge thing and let the beer sit for a few weeks and it got better to the point of drinkability.  My wife couldn’t really detect it at that point and my daughter’s comment was “I don’t know dad, tastes like beer.”  But I never could get it out of my mind as I worked through the keg.   ;D

I’m certainly willing to accept blame for mishandling the yeast, wouldn’t be the first time, won’t be the last.  But after that beer I’ve made sure to get ale pitch temps into the mid 60’s.  Not saying for sure that pitching at 74 was the cause of the sulfur, but that’s what I’m blaming it on.  I’ve never experienced that aroma before or since and have made essentially the same recipe (Cream Ale) with US-05, K-97, WLP029 and BRy-97.


thanks for the detailed notes. and yes that does remind me, k-97s krausen is completely insane. i def wouldnt ferment it at that temp myself.

i think im locked in on trying it again. ive got an order made for it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 05, 2021, 06:03:26 am
We considered K-97 for a Kolsch, but decided against it after reading reviews here. Mainly that Wyeast has a much better product for a good Kolsch style beer.

Sulphur? We get a big C02 aroma hit accompanied by modest sulphur notes with most fermenting beers while in the chest freezer. But this never translates to the taste profile.

Recommended temp for K-97 is 59-68 F.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 05, 2021, 08:59:55 am
Diamond and S-189 for lagers here if I'm doing dry yeast. There are liquid ones I use, Imperial Harvest is an example, WLP-833 is another.

I haven't found a favorite dry British yeast. The last beer I made used Imperial Pub Ale. Darned if that didn't give me the Marmelade flavors I was looking for, it didn't drop as quick as WLP-002, but it made a great Best Bitter.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 06, 2021, 04:53:55 am
Diamond and S-189 for lagers here if I'm doing dry yeast. There are liquid ones I use, Imperial Harvest is an example, WLP-833 is another.

I haven't found a favorite dry British yeast. The last beer I made used Imperial Pub Ale. Darned if that didn't give me the Marmelade flavors I was looking for, it didn't drop as quick as WLP-002, but it made a great Best Bitter.

I would be curious to know how Diamond compares to S-189. Flavor profile, flocculation, etc.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Big_Eight on November 06, 2021, 05:10:33 am


Diamond and S-189 for lagers here if I'm doing dry yeast. There are liquid ones I use, Imperial Harvest is an example, WLP-833 is another.

I haven't found a favorite dry British yeast. The last beer I made used Imperial Pub Ale. Darned if that didn't give me the Marmelade flavors I was looking for, it didn't drop as quick as WLP-002, but it made a great Best Bitter.

I'll have to give that imperial pub ale yeast a shot next time I do a bitter as I haven't landed on a favorite yeast yet for that style. Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 06, 2021, 06:29:51 am
Diamond and S-189 for lagers here if I'm doing dry yeast. There are liquid ones I use, Imperial Harvest is an example, WLP-833 is another.

I haven't found a favorite dry British yeast. The last beer I made used Imperial Pub Ale. Darned if that didn't give me the Marmelade flavors I was looking for, it didn't drop as quick as WLP-002, but it made a great Best Bitter.

I would be curious to know how Diamond compares to S-189. Flavor profile, flocculation, etc.

Based on my current experiment... they are very very similar.  Fermentation time, attenuation & FG, and flocculation are all about the same.  I think maybe the Diamond has just a slight flavor edge over S-189, but... I need to do a couple more side by sides to analyze a little deeper, and will try it blind.  Maybe later tonight, or tomorrow.  I'll try to remember to update later.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 06, 2021, 08:14:42 am
Diamond and S-189 for lagers here if I'm doing dry yeast. There are liquid ones I use, Imperial Harvest is an example, WLP-833 is another.

I haven't found a favorite dry British yeast. The last beer I made used Imperial Pub Ale. Darned if that didn't give me the Marmelade flavors I was looking for, it didn't drop as quick as WLP-002, but it made a great Best Bitter.

I would be curious to know how Diamond compares to S-189. Flavor profile, flocculation, etc.

Diamond is crisp.  Think German pils.  S-189 is Hurlimann, and emphasizes malt.  It is the yeast used for Samichlaus.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 06, 2021, 12:55:48 pm
For a many lagers I use Diamond for a dry finish, if that is what I want for the style. If I want more malt character I go with S-189. I've split batches, and the difference is definitely there.

Diamond for a Pils. I liked S-189 for a Bock.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 06, 2021, 01:58:02 pm
ok, and still on dry yeast. i just saw safale F-2 and was reminded of it and the CBC-1.
https://fermentis.com/en/product/safale-f-2/

anyone ever attempted to ferment a whole beer with it? it says it ferments maltose, glucose, fructose etc but not maltotriose
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 06, 2021, 08:35:59 pm
For a many lagers I use Diamond for a dry finish, if that is what I want for the style. If I want more malt character I go with S-189. I've split batches, and the difference is definitely there.

Diamond for a Pils. I liked S-189 for a Bock.
I sampled a traditional bock earlier today that I made with Diamond. It was 1.064 down to 1.012 and man that beer tastes intensely malty and awesome. I'd certainly use Diamond again for a bock.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 07, 2021, 08:18:30 am
For a many lagers I use Diamond for a dry finish, if that is what I want for the style. If I want more malt character I go with S-189. I've split batches, and the difference is definitely there.

Diamond for a Pils. I liked S-189 for a Bock.
I sampled a traditional bock earlier today that I made with Diamond. It was 1.064 down to 1.012 and man that beer tastes intensely malty and awesome. I'd certainly use Diamond again for a bock.

And you can certainly do that.  My experience is that Diamond is great for those styles, but I find S189 even better.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 07, 2021, 02:00:31 pm
I'll be honest with you guys.  I just did my blind tasting of S-189 vs. Diamond, and.... I really just cannot tell these apart.  I thought maybe I could on the first sip, but after that, they really just tasted identical.  If anything, I found S-189 might have had more hop flavor, while Diamond tasted less hoppy but also more bitter... but this was like splitting hairs.  I really don't know if it was just my imagination.  I got the same attenuation and FG with both, so I'm almost thinking maybe... these are super closely related.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 07, 2021, 02:04:31 pm
I'll be honest with you guys.  I just did my blind tasting of S-189 vs. Diamond, and.... I really just cannot tell these apart.  I thought maybe I could on the first sip, but after that, they really just tasted identical.  If anything, I found S-189 might have had more hop flavor, while Diamond tasted less hoppy but also more bitter... but this was like splitting hairs.  I really don't know if it was just my imagination.  I got the same attenuation and FG with both, so I'm almost thinking maybe... these are super closely related.

I know they have different origins.  I assume you did a split batch?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 07, 2021, 02:43:28 pm
I'll be honest with you guys.  I just did my blind tasting of S-189 vs. Diamond, and.... I really just cannot tell these apart.  I thought maybe I could on the first sip, but after that, they really just tasted identical.  If anything, I found S-189 might have had more hop flavor, while Diamond tasted less hoppy but also more bitter... but this was like splitting hairs.  I really don't know if it was just my imagination.  I got the same attenuation and FG with both, so I'm almost thinking maybe... these are super closely related.

I know they have different origins.  I assume you did a split batch?

I thought so too.  Yes, it was a split batch specifically for this purpose.  Dunkel.  Quite tasty, both, and... I have no real preference either way.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 07, 2021, 03:15:46 pm
I'll be honest with you guys.  I just did my blind tasting of S-189 vs. Diamond, and.... I really just cannot tell these apart.  I thought maybe I could on the first sip, but after that, they really just tasted identical.  If anything, I found S-189 might have had more hop flavor, while Diamond tasted less hoppy but also more bitter... but this was like splitting hairs.  I really don't know if it was just my imagination.  I got the same attenuation and FG with both, so I'm almost thinking maybe... these are super closely related.

I know they have different origins.  I assume you did a split batch?

I thought so too.  Yes, it was a split batch specifically for this purpose.  Dunkel.  Quite tasty, both, and... I have no real preference either way.

Every time this situation comes up I'm reminded of what someone (Mark?) said aboutv there being a lot fewer differences between lager yeast than ale yeast. It was years ago when I split a batch of Ofest to compare them, but I recall being able to tell a difference.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 08, 2021, 10:52:13 am
I'll be honest with you guys.  I just did my blind tasting of S-189 vs. Diamond, and.... I really just cannot tell these apart.  I thought maybe I could on the first sip, but after that, they really just tasted identical.  If anything, I found S-189 might have had more hop flavor, while Diamond tasted less hoppy but also more bitter... but this was like splitting hairs.  I really don't know if it was just my imagination.  I got the same attenuation and FG with both, so I'm almost thinking maybe... these are super closely related.

I know they have different origins.  I assume you did a split batch?

I thought so too.  Yes, it was a split batch specifically for this purpose.  Dunkel.  Quite tasty, both, and... I have no real preference either way.

Every time this situation comes up I'm reminded of what someone (Mark?) said aboutv there being a lot fewer differences between lager yeast than ale yeast. It was years ago when I split a batch of Ofest to compare them, but I recall being able to tell a difference.
Hmm I can see that given that there are fewer esters produced when treated properly.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 09, 2021, 05:44:35 am
We can attest to differences in Diamond Lager vs. W-34/70.

Using the Diamond, we are much closer to getting that classic German Pils flavor profile....whatever that is.

The W-34/70 is a good, predictable yeast.

Here is my analogy:

34/70 will get you into the right church.

Diamond will have you seated in the correct pew.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 09, 2021, 08:09:47 pm
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 10, 2021, 02:55:03 am
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Why would you do that to yourself??!!!!


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 10, 2021, 07:04:31 am
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Why would you do that to yourself??!!!!


have you ever used k97?

i got good results from it


also, not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 10, 2021, 07:20:56 am
Yes I hate it!


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 10, 2021, 08:00:56 am
Yes I hate it!


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Same here.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 10, 2021, 08:03:12 am
not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Heh...

"7 tasters reported preferring the US-05 beer, 5 said they liked the K-97 beer more, and 3 had no preference...

"I was easily able to tell these beers apart just by appearance, as the beer fermented with US-05 was much clearer than the K-97 beer."

Yeah it's a yeasty mess, which some people don't mind, but 7 out of 12 don't prefer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 10, 2021, 08:20:00 am
not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Heh...

"7 tasters reported preferring the US-05 beer, 5 said they liked the K-97 beer more, and 3 had no preference...

"I was easily able to tell these beers apart just by appearance, as the beer fermented with US-05 was much clearer than the K-97 beer."

Yeah it's a yeasty mess, which some people don't mind, but 7 out of 12 don't prefer.

Numbers are funny, and you can make them say whatever you want. I often think about this each time a Brulosophy experiment is posted online.

In the above example, 8 of the 12 actually prefer K-97, or had no preference of US-05 vs. K-97.

Much like the old Schlitz Super Bowl commercial. They had a panel of dedicated Bud drinkers to sample two beers, a Schlitz and a Bud. Something like 40% of them chose the Schlitz. This was a live TV spot, during a Super Bowl commercial break.

So then Schlitz made the accurate claim that 40% of former die hard Bud drinkers actually prefer Schlitz in a head-to-head comparison.

The experts said Schlitz could not lose on this.

edit: How many here are old enough to have watched this on TV?

Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9a3K2vkvrU&ab_channel=ThomasCizauskas
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 10, 2021, 08:40:58 am
not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Heh...

"7 tasters reported preferring the US-05 beer, 5 said they liked the K-97 beer more, and 3 had no preference...

"I was easily able to tell these beers apart just by appearance, as the beer fermented with US-05 was much clearer than the K-97 beer."

Yeah it's a yeasty mess, which some people don't mind, but 7 out of 12 don't prefer.

Yep....so what?  I don't need other people telling me what I like
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: RC on November 10, 2021, 09:30:07 am
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Why would you do that to yourself??!!!!


have you ever used k97?

i got good results from it


also, not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Brulosophy...sigh. Cue the eye rolling...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 10, 2021, 09:48:14 am
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Why would you do that to yourself??!!!!


have you ever used k97?

i got good results from it


also, not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Brulosophy...sigh. Cue the eye rolling...

Their opinions are as valid as yours or mine, but no moreso
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: RC on November 10, 2021, 10:13:05 am
just ordered two packs of k-97.

going to explain it to you simply.
Why would you do that to yourself??!!!!


have you ever used k97?

i got good results from it


also, not my favourite site but:
https://brulosophy.com/2017/04/17/yeast-comparison-safale-us-05-american-ale-vs-safale-k-97-german-ale-exbeeriment-results/

Brulosophy...sigh. Cue the eye rolling...

...but no moreso

^Exactly. Many homebrewers take Brulosophy's results as gospel and don't take a moment to consider the limitations. Every time someone posts "but this is what Brulosophy showed..." my eyes roll very far into the back of my head. I should probably see a doctor about it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 10, 2021, 11:35:29 am
lol, more importantly. im hoping i can prove in some way that k97 can make a good beer. i am fully aware it takes forever to settle. im planning on letting this beer sit for a long time at cold winter temps and give it a good dose of gelatin as well.

if it doesnt turn out well i will absolutely report that also.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 10, 2021, 11:51:41 am
I think it can make an ~O.K. beer after a loooong time conditioning.  Not great, just ~O.K.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 10, 2021, 12:08:42 pm
lol, more importantly. im hoping i can prove in some way that k97 can make a good beer. i am fully aware it takes forever to settle. im planning on letting this beer sit for a long time at cold winter temps and give it a good dose of gelatin as well.

if it doesnt turn out well i will absolutely report that also.

You will prove it only for yourself on this one batch.  I've proven to myself that I don't like it on more than one occasion.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 10, 2021, 01:13:12 pm
i also ordered some diamond btw.

hoping to follow kai's guide, including water and really hit a pils spot on.

its a sort of superfluous task considering the only good beers i have available here consistently are german pilsners, but whatever.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 10, 2021, 04:31:34 pm
I brewed my Bohemian-style Pilsner this past weekend.  I pitched two packages of S-23 into 5.25 gallons of 1.054 wort @ 52F.  Active blow-off started in 24 hours, which is faster than Diamond at this temp, but not incredibly faster.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 11, 2021, 08:23:32 am
I brewed my Bohemian-style Pilsner this past weekend.  I pitched two packages of S-23 into 5.25 gallons of 1.054 wort @ 52F.  Active blow-off started in 24 hours, which is faster than Diamond at this temp, but not incredibly faster.
Keep us posted. Really interested in the yeast considering how many bad things I seem to hear.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Visor on November 11, 2021, 11:43:21 am

 i agree with the types repeated by many, but would add k-97.

i fermented it cool and it was a very clean yeast that had an incredibly persistent haze and made the hops pop pretty well. people label it as "german ale/kolsch/alt" whatever, but i see it as a NEIPA potential yeast or IPA. i'd love to hear recent and more feedback from people who used it.
I recently used it in an American wheat beer where it got up to 74f with no ill effects.


I used K-97 this past summer in two consecutive batches of an American wheat ale (with orange tincture added), and had amazing results! I fermented around 66 degrees, and the end flavors were awesome. In the past, I've bought liquid American Wheat Ale cultures (WLP320), which are also quite good...but not nearly as convenient as the dry K-97. I'm a convert for K-97 in my particular American wheat recipes from here on out...

yup, i wish we could get some more crowdsourced opinions on k-97. i added my thoughts earlier on it. just because its imagined/commercially stated provenance is "german ale", doesnt mean it needs to explicitly be used for that purpose. its just a yeast.

Am I the only one that has taken a sulfur punch in the nose from K-97? 

Maybe it was something I said...   :-[
I didn't care for K97 at all. I got a tartness from it that I didn't care for.

   Same here, and not once but every beer I tried it in, all of which were split ferments with other yeasts. The other side of the splits were all tasty.
   I've left K-97 beer in the crash fridge at 24* for a week or more and it didn't clear, anything that needs longer than that ain't worth tying up my fridge.
   A few months ago I found a package of BE-256 on the floor behind my freezer and calculated that it must have been there for several months at least, was gonna huck it but decided to keep it instead. A couple weeks ago I brewed a 71 gravity stout that I planned to split between 05 and 256, so I pitched the found package in a 1 qt. starter along side a separate 1 qt. starter with 1/2C recently harvested 05. The 256 performed admirably even after all that time a room temp, it did take longer to get going than the 05 slurry but that is to be expected with dry versus harvested. Both splits are about ready to crash and both are at 1.024. In the past when I've split between 05 and 256 the 256 did have slightly higher attenuation, but only 1 or 2 percentage points, so maybe this pkg was a slightly affected by less than ideal storage conditions, but it's still a pretty testament to the survivability of quality dry yeast.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 11, 2021, 11:52:34 am
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/star-gazer-hazy-double-ipa-big-brew-2021/

found this in a thread where someone also mentions separately an anecdote of someone winning a state level brewing competition year after year in APA using k-97.

it does show off hops.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 13, 2021, 05:44:09 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 13, 2021, 05:59:34 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 13, 2021, 06:13:45 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I’ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It’s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn’t dry it out so much. I’m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I’m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 13, 2021, 06:51:56 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don%u2019t think I%u2019ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I%u2019ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It%u2019s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn%u2019t dry it out so much. I%u2019m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I%u2019m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.

I'm anticipating approximately 76% attenuation with Verdant.  I usually get about 78% from Notty.

If you want a little lower attenuation, try London which has averaged for me about 67%.  It's similar to Windsor but the latter only averages about 60% if fermenting all by itself.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 13, 2021, 06:53:25 am
Im interested to see what kind of esters this strain is packing


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 13, 2021, 08:07:55 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I’ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It’s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn’t dry it out so much. I’m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I’m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.
Verdant will get you there. It makes a tasty UK style beer. I'm not sure it'll get you what you want for a west coast IPA, though. I've used it for northeast IPAs several times with good results. I think of it as the dry form of wy1318.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on November 13, 2021, 08:20:14 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I’ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It’s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn’t dry it out so much. I’m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I’m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.
I have a Bourbon Barrel Porter just about ready for Thanksgiving that I fermented with London ESB. Early indications are pretty good. I have some Verdant Mark gave me but I just haven’t used it yet. It never crossed my mind to use it in the Porter. Hmmm…



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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 13, 2021, 08:25:42 am
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
Mine was 10 pounds glen-eagle heirloom MO from crisp, 4 ounces of challenger about 35 IBU, as well we 1 pound of simplicity syrup.

The heirloom MO is super pale but really flavorful, may not be too golden. Oh well ordering it was a happy accident


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 13, 2021, 04:43:18 pm
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I’ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It’s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn’t dry it out so much. I’m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I’m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.
Verdant will get you there. It makes a tasty UK style beer. I'm not sure it'll get you what you want for a west coast IPA, though. I've used it for northeast IPAs several times with good results. I think of it as the dry form of wy1318.
Re:WCIPA with Verdant. I may skip that one and do something else. I had that on my list based on the name including IPA. But, I see from their description they are more focused on NEIPA.

From Lallemand description “This highly versatile strain is well suited for a variety of beer styles including NEIPA, English IPA, American Pale, English Bitter, Sweet Stout and Sours”
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 13, 2021, 04:48:33 pm
I pitched a sachet of verdant ipa from lallemand on Thursday into a British golden ale, wooooh boy I don%u2019t think I%u2019ve ever seen such a thick krausen before!

I'll be doing the same thing very soon, British Golden AK with Verdant.  Can't wait to try it.  Cheers!
I am planning 3 beers with a packet of Verdant I have on hand: a Landlord homage, brown porter, and a West Coast IPA. I%u2019ll probably start with the porter.

I have a keg of Landlord with Notty/Windsor copitch. It%u2019s pretty good but dry and crisp like a lager. I want to try it with a yeast that doesn%u2019t dry it out so much. I%u2019m not sure what Verdant will do for attenuation. I%u2019m hoping for 75-78% rather than 80+.

I'm anticipating approximately 76% attenuation with Verdant.  I usually get about 78% from Notty.

If you want a little lower attenuation, try London which has averaged for me about 67%.  It's similar to Windsor but the latter only averages about 60% if fermenting all by itself.
I brewed two beers with the Lallemand London Ale yeast, both 1050 SG bitters. Both finished at 1020 SG. They were both good. But, I have a mental block regarding that kind of finish gravity. I can’t get myself to go there again.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: nateo on November 14, 2021, 03:05:20 pm
Mangrove Jack's Empire is another of those low attenuators. I think it's a version of the Newcastle yeast. I think I got in the 60%s last time I used it. As long as it tastes good it doesn't matter what the hydrometer says.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 14, 2021, 06:56:08 pm
Just transferred a batch of red rye ipa onto a slurry if danstar koln from a cream ale. Thinking this yeast will be a mainstay for me.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 15, 2021, 07:30:05 am
Mangrove Jack's Empire is another of those low attenuators. I think it's a version of the Newcastle yeast. I think I got in the 60%s last time I used it. As long as it tastes good it doesn't matter what the hydrometer says.
Almost every Mangrove Jack's yeast I've ever used has been a low attenuator. That's why I tend not to use them anymore.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 15, 2021, 08:08:21 am
Mangrove Jack's Empire is another of those low attenuators. I think it's a version of the Newcastle yeast. I think I got in the 60%s last time I used it. As long as it tastes good it doesn't matter what the hydrometer says.
Almost every Mangrove Jack's yeast I've ever used has been a low attenuator. That's why I tend not to use them anymore.

That's not a fair assessment.  MJ just repacks yeast from others, so this is just like saying "I don't like Lallemand because I tried Windsor once."  Uh, yeah, well, you used Windsor, so...

Indeed, Empire is probably just Windsor.

But if you try any of the diastaticus repacks, you won't be complaining about low attenuation, I can guarantee that.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 15, 2021, 11:38:04 am
Mangrove Jack's Empire is another of those low attenuators. I think it's a version of the Newcastle yeast. I think I got in the 60%s last time I used it. As long as it tastes good it doesn't matter what the hydrometer says.
Almost every Mangrove Jack's yeast I've ever used has been a low attenuator. That's why I tend not to use them anymore.

That's not a fair assessment.  MJ just repacks yeast from others, so this is just like saying "I don't like Lallemand because I tried Windsor once."  Uh, yeah, well, you used Windsor, so...

Indeed, Empire is probably just Windsor.

But if you try any of the diastaticus repacks, you won't be complaining about low attenuation, I can guarantee that.
Understood. The hefeweizen yeast, while having very good flavor characteristics, gives me poor attenuation. EVERY TIME. I think I used the west coast one once and that attenuated well. The Bavarian lager one was so-so. The workhorse attenuated poorly.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 15, 2021, 02:39:06 pm
That's not a fair assessment.  MJ just repacks yeast from others, so this is just like saying "I don't like Lallemand because I tried Windsor once."  Uh, yeah, well, you used Windsor, so...

Indeed, Empire is probably just Windsor.

But if you try any of the diastaticus repacks, you won't be complaining about low attenuation, I can guarantee that.
Understood. The hefeweizen yeast, while having very good flavor characteristics, gives me poor attenuation. EVERY TIME. I think I used the west coast one once and that attenuated well. The Bavarian lager one was so-so. The workhorse attenuated poorly.

Thanks for sharing these experiences.

I'm honestly not sure what attenuation to expect from the M20 Bavarian Wheat as I believe that's a repack of Mauri Weiss which I've never seen sold in the USA.  And I myself haven't tried M20 (yet!).

The Workhorse is probably Lallemand London, as these are both known to average around 67% attenuation.  Not quite as "bad" as Windsor or M15 Empire, but in a similar ballpark, and all of these strains are in fact very very closely related to one another.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 15, 2021, 02:55:51 pm
That's not a fair assessment.  MJ just repacks yeast from others, so this is just like saying "I don't like Lallemand because I tried Windsor once."  Uh, yeah, well, you used Windsor, so...

Indeed, Empire is probably just Windsor.

But if you try any of the diastaticus repacks, you won't be complaining about low attenuation, I can guarantee that.
Understood. The hefeweizen yeast, while having very good flavor characteristics, gives me poor attenuation. EVERY TIME. I think I used the west coast one once and that attenuated well. The Bavarian lager one was so-so. The workhorse attenuated poorly.

Thanks for sharing these experiences.

I'm honestly not sure what attenuation to expect from the M20 Bavarian Wheat as I believe that's a repack of Mauri Weiss which I've never seen sold in the USA.  And I myself haven't tried M20 (yet!).

The Workhorse is probably Lallemand London, as these are both known to average around 67% attenuation.  Not quite as "bad" as Windsor or M15 Empire, but in a similar ballpark, and all of these strains are in fact very very closely related to one another.

I'd kinda like to know what you're basing these guesses on.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 15, 2021, 04:07:52 pm
That's not a fair assessment.  MJ just repacks yeast from others, so this is just like saying "I don't like Lallemand because I tried Windsor once."  Uh, yeah, well, you used Windsor, so...

Indeed, Empire is probably just Windsor.

But if you try any of the diastaticus repacks, you won't be complaining about low attenuation, I can guarantee that.
Understood. The hefeweizen yeast, while having very good flavor characteristics, gives me poor attenuation. EVERY TIME. I think I used the west coast one once and that attenuated well. The Bavarian lager one was so-so. The workhorse attenuated poorly.

Thanks for sharing these experiences.

I'm honestly not sure what attenuation to expect from the M20 Bavarian Wheat as I believe that's a repack of Mauri Weiss which I've never seen sold in the USA.  And I myself haven't tried M20 (yet!).

The Workhorse is probably Lallemand London, as these are both known to average around 67% attenuation.  Not quite as "bad" as Windsor or M15 Empire, but in a similar ballpark, and all of these strains are in fact very very closely related to one another.

I'd kinda like to know what you're basing these guesses on.

Basis is hundreds of hours of thought, intuition, and consideration of all sorts of various sources.  I'm not saying you or anybody will like it, but for whatever it's worth, here's the results of about 200 hours of being a nerd.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 17, 2021, 02:54:34 pm
Here is an interesting data point.  S-23 went from producing sulfur at 52F to producing fruity aromas at 64F.  I have handled at least 50 yeast cultures and that is just bizarre.  S-23 is definitely a Frohberg culture that has maintained a large percentage of the S. cerevisiae genetic admixture that it inherited from its S. cerevisae parent, but it is definitely a hybrid S. eubayanus x S. cerevisiae yeast.  I have yet to meet a true S. cerevisae beer culture that will ferment strongly at at 52F.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 17, 2021, 03:52:40 pm
I have yet to meet a true S. cerevisae beer culture that will ferment strongly at at 52F.

I just had T-58 almost pop the lid off a cider within like 3 hours after pitching at about 60 F.  Granted, this is cider, not beer, and still warmer than your 52 F, but it does make me wonder what T-58 might be capable of at lower temperatures.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 17, 2021, 04:46:12 pm
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 18, 2021, 05:20:14 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 18, 2021, 05:23:02 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

Diff'rent Strokes.  I'm going to try it, just to learn what it does.  Just like I tried S-23, knowing that I probably wouldn't like it but who knows until you try it.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 18, 2021, 05:49:38 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

Diff'rent Strokes.  I'm going to try it, just to learn what it does.  Just like I tried S-23, knowing that I probably wouldn't like it but who knows until you try it.

True. In my earlier brewing days, the mid 90's, a "hop bomb" would have been an enjoyable beer. Today, not so much. Funny how what tasted great a couple decades ago is now a beer to be avoided.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Oiscout on November 18, 2021, 06:20:55 am
Its a terrible beer will probably dump it


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 18, 2021, 07:47:40 am
Here is an interesting data point.  S-23 went from producing sulfur at 52F to producing fruity aromas at 64F.  I have handled at least 50 yeast cultures and that is just bizarre.  S-23 is definitely a Frohberg culture that has maintained a large percentage of the S. cerevisiae genetic admixture that it inherited from its S. cerevisae parent, but it is definitely a hybrid S. eubayanus x S. cerevisiae yeast.  I have yet to meet a true S. cerevisae beer culture that will ferment strongly at at 52F.

Try WY1007 or 1728. I typically ferment both of those at 52f and get strong fermentation.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 18, 2021, 11:46:13 am
Its a terrible beer will probably dump it


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What happened? I have a Porter in the fermenter now with Verdant. I tried a sample yesterday. It tasted pretty good.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 18, 2021, 04:16:38 pm
Its a terrible beer will probably dump it


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What happened? I have a Porter in the fermenter now with Verdant. I tried a sample yesterday. It tasted pretty good.
I think you'll dig it in a porter. I like Verdant personally. Makes a nice bitter. Don't know if it's true, but I read somewhere it was the dry form of 1318. I can see that being possible...
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 18, 2021, 06:54:53 pm
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

i honestly dont know why people homebrew if they stick exclusively to styles that are extremely available commercially for an affordable price. if i only wanted pale euro lagers, i would probably just buy them.

i would guess the vast majority of people who got into homebrewing did it because they do want a "bomb" of flavour, and were inspired by a beer that was like a bomb in their mouth. i was.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 19, 2021, 05:54:08 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

i honestly dont know why people homebrew if they stick exclusively to styles that are extremely available commercially for an affordable price. if i only wanted pale euro lagers, i would probably just buy them.

i would guess the vast majority of people who got into homebrewing did it because they do want a "bomb" of flavour, and were inspired by a beer that was like a bomb in their mouth. i was.

There is a good reason why we choose to make:

Euro Lagers (Festbier / Helles / Pilsner / Vienna Lager)
Imperial Stouts
Barleywines

The issue is freshness. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to purchase a keg of (insert favorite Euro beer here) and have it brewery fresh. Most kegs purchased have only 30 days left on their 12 month shelf life. The flavor has been gone for nearly 6 months.

Light lagers age very poorly, as we all know. By brewing the above, we get the beer we like, and it is brewery fresh!

And, no bombs, please!

BTW...it is even a challenge to get a fresh keg of domestic beer.
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: BrewBama on November 19, 2021, 06:15:00 am
Why brew beer readily available?  Many homebrewers enjoy the ‘maker’ aspect of the hobby. The end product is simply an inevitable outcome of the planning, prepping, processes, etc…. IOW, it doesn’t matter what style of beer is brewed, the pleasure is derived from the DIY. 

I have a friend who makes furniture for a past time. I like to smoke and cure meats, stuff sausages, bake bread and pizza, cook French, Italian, and Mexican cuisine, grill a steak or burger, garden, do my own landscaping/lawn care, fix my own tractor, etc. all for the same reason: I made/grew/did it myself even though much of this is readily available in the marketplace. I get great satisfaction when I offer something I made to someone and they enjoy it.



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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 19, 2021, 07:04:01 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

i honestly dont know why people homebrew if they stick exclusively to styles that are extremely available commercially for an affordable price. if i only wanted pale euro lagers, i would probably just buy them.

i would guess the vast majority of people who got into homebrewing did it because they do want a "bomb" of flavour, and were inspired by a beer that was like a bomb in their mouth. i was.

There is a good reason why we choose to make:

Euro Lagers (Festbier / Helles / Pilsner / Vienna Lager)
Imperial Stouts
Barleywines

The issue is freshness. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to purchase a keg of (insert favorite Euro beer here) and have it brewery fresh. Most kegs purchased have only 30 days left on their 12 month shelf life. The flavor has been gone for nearly 6 months.

Light lagers age very poorly, as we all know. By brewing the above, we get the beer we like, and it is brewery fresh!

And, no bombs, please!

BTW...it is even a challenge to get a fresh keg of domestic beer.
and I am sure it’s fun to make!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 19, 2021, 08:17:35 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

i honestly dont know why people homebrew if they stick exclusively to styles that are extremely available commercially for an affordable price. if i only wanted pale euro lagers, i would probably just buy them.

i would guess the vast majority of people who got into homebrewing did it because they do want a "bomb" of flavour, and were inspired by a beer that was like a bomb in their mouth. i was.

I wasn't. I started homebrewing because I like making things.  Don't assume everyone has the same motivations as you do.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 19, 2021, 08:30:01 am
Pulled a hydrometer reading on my golden ale fermented with verdant IPA, ester bomb! For just a sample its pretty tasty

It is just me, but any description that includes "bomb" is not something that sounds appealing. Fruit bomb, peach bomb, ester bomb, hop bomb, etc.

My goal is balance, with all flavors equally contributing to the taste experience, without any bombs going off!

i honestly dont know why people homebrew if they stick exclusively to styles that are extremely available commercially for an affordable price. if i only wanted pale euro lagers, i would probably just buy them.

i would guess the vast majority of people who got into homebrewing did it because they do want a "bomb" of flavour, and were inspired by a beer that was like a bomb in their mouth. i was.

I wasn't. I started homebrewing because I like making things.  Don't assume everyone has the same motivations as you do.

That's where I'm at now. Sampling a beer, checking for carbonation level, clarity, flavor profile is much more enjoyable than downing a few pints.

The brewing process is very enjoyable. Much like cooking a great meal for friends. I enjoy the overall process more than the actual beer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on November 19, 2021, 08:54:14 am
Making the beer is the fun part.  Packaging it to give away is the PITA.  So, I have gone to asking donees to provide a soda bottle or container of their choosing to receive some homebrew.  Interesting how many choose the 2 liter soda bottles or growlers...and some have recently asked how long a gallon might keep. 

If you brew just for yourself to consume and to save money, you either have to drink an awful lot or make small batches.  Either way, I don't find it to be a cost saving objective for me. 

As to the thread topic, I enjoy the ability to brew spontaneously using dry yeast, as I don't track my kegs to know when an opening might come up in my brewing lineup.  I used to be able to brew frequently and always had a few open slots to fill the empty kegs - not so much lately with COVID limiting the visitors.  I have recently dumped perfectly good beer in order to free up a keg that had some beer with legs on it.  Now that is passion for your hobby!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 19, 2021, 09:03:51 am
Making the beer is the fun part.  Packaging it to give away is the PITA.  So, I have gone to asking donees to provide a soda bottle or container of their choosing to receive some homebrew.  Interesting how many choose the 2 liter soda bottles or growlers...and some have recently asked how long a gallon might keep. 

If you brew just for yourself to consume and to save money, you either have to drink an awful lot or make small batches.  Either way, I don't find it to be a cost saving objective for me. 

As to the thread topic, I enjoy the ability to brew spontaneously using dry yeast, as I don't track my kegs to know when an opening might come up in my brewing lineup.  I used to be able to brew frequently and always had a few open slots to fill the empty kegs - not so much lately with COVID limiting the visitors.  I have recently dumped perfectly good beer in order to free up a keg that had some beer with legs on it.  Now that is passion for your hobby!

To follow up on that thought, I kegged 2 batches yesterday.  A pretty fast and easy process compared to bottling, but as I was doing it I was thinking how boring it was and now much I'd rather be brewing.  Spoiled, I guess.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: beersk on November 19, 2021, 10:49:21 am
Making the beer is the fun part.  Packaging it to give away is the PITA.  So, I have gone to asking donees to provide a soda bottle or container of their choosing to receive some homebrew.  Interesting how many choose the 2 liter soda bottles or growlers...and some have recently asked how long a gallon might keep. 

If you brew just for yourself to consume and to save money, you either have to drink an awful lot or make small batches.  Either way, I don't find it to be a cost saving objective for me. 

As to the thread topic, I enjoy the ability to brew spontaneously using dry yeast, as I don't track my kegs to know when an opening might come up in my brewing lineup.  I used to be able to brew frequently and always had a few open slots to fill the empty kegs - not so much lately with COVID limiting the visitors.  I have recently dumped perfectly good beer in order to free up a keg that had some beer with legs on it.  Now that is passion for your hobby!

To follow up on that thought, I kegged 2 batches yesterday.  A pretty fast and easy process compared to bottling, but as I was doing it I was thinking how boring it was and now much I'd rather be brewing.  Spoiled, I guess.
Well, not all parts of the process are going to be fun. For instance, I dislike the chilling process, but I'm not going to a no-chill process. Kegging isn't that bad of a part for me anymore since I do a closed transfer. Before, I didn't care for it much, with the open keg expose (covered with foil) and using an autosiphon.

And to fredthecat's point, a lot of what I brew is stuff I can't find anymore ie black IPA, any good lager that isn't over hopped, anything that isn't hazy... ha, so like ANY style? No one makes a good schwarzbier, English porter, except for the classics, of course. But, domestically... Odell stopped making Cutthroat, Summit Great Northern Porter isn't in Iowa anymore... all these great beers we once had or were pushed out of the market because the haze craze, are all gone. Brew what you like, like what you brew. Making beer is one of the coolest hobbies in the world. The other reason I do it is because I love to share it. I give growlers away to friends all the time.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: narvin on November 19, 2021, 11:37:27 am
Is it weird that I no longer enjoy much of the process between recipe design and drinking the beer?  It's not the worst thing in the world, but if I could design the recipe, source the ingredients, specify the process exactly, and then get a day laborer to handle it, I would.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 19, 2021, 02:14:54 pm
Is it weird that I no longer enjoy much of the process between recipe design and drinking the beer?  It's not the worst thing in the world, but if I could design the recipe, source the ingredients, specify the process exactly, and then get a day laborer to handle it, I would.

Of course it's not weird.  We all have different motivations.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 19, 2021, 04:53:54 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211119/cb20f6ee8966dd5f63f61a1b028880a9.jpg)
Danstar Koln. Clears very fast which is nice. Kegged 6 days ago. Noticed a dramatic difference from day 2 to day 3


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: purduekenn on November 19, 2021, 05:00:31 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211119/cb20f6ee8966dd5f63f61a1b028880a9.jpg)
Danstar Koln. Clears very fast which is nice. Kegged 6 days ago. Noticed a dramatic difference from day 2 to day 3


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That's a nice looking beer! Assuming it is a Kolsch.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on November 19, 2021, 05:06:47 pm
No it’s a mutt of an ale. Cream ale inspired.

60% pils
20% flaked corn
15% rye
5% sugar

7g bravo @ 60
1 oz amarillo @ 20 min
1 oz amarillo @ 2 min

1.050
17 IBU

Ran at 64F and the yeast is pretty expressive. Need to experiment with it lower to see how clean it can be.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 19, 2021, 05:27:03 pm
Making the beer is the fun part.  Packaging it to give away is the PITA.  So, I have gone to asking donees to provide a soda bottle or container of their choosing to receive some homebrew.  Interesting how many choose the 2 liter soda bottles or growlers...and some have recently asked how long a gallon might keep. 

If you brew just for yourself to consume and to save money, you either have to drink an awful lot or make small batches.  Either way, I don't find it to be a cost saving objective for me. 

As to the thread topic, I enjoy the ability to brew spontaneously using dry yeast, as I don't track my kegs to know when an opening might come up in my brewing lineup.  I used to be able to brew frequently and always had a few open slots to fill the empty kegs - not so much lately with COVID limiting the visitors.  I have recently dumped perfectly good beer in order to free up a keg that had some beer with legs on it.  Now that is passion for your hobby!

To follow up on that thought, I kegged 2 batches yesterday.  A pretty fast and easy process compared to bottling, but as I was doing it I was thinking how boring it was and now much I'd rather be brewing.  Spoiled, I guess.
Well, not all parts of the process are going to be fun. For instance, I dislike the chilling process, but I'm not going to a no-chill process. Kegging isn't that bad of a part for me anymore since I do a closed transfer. Before, I didn't care for it much, with the open keg expose (covered with foil) and using an autosiphon.

And to fredthecat's point, a lot of what I brew is stuff I can't find anymore ie black IPA, any good lager that isn't over hopped, anything that isn't hazy... ha, so like ANY style? No one makes a good schwarzbier, English porter, except for the classics, of course. But, domestically... Odell stopped making Cutthroat, Summit Great Northern Porter isn't in Iowa anymore... all these great beers we once had or were pushed out of the market because the haze craze, are all gone. Brew what you like, like what you brew. Making beer is one of the coolest hobbies in the world. The other reason I do it is because I love to share it. I give growlers away to friends all the time.

yup. i didnt feel the need to go ahead and explain my whole "why i brew" thoughts, but youve summarized it mostly.

1. its actually quite hard to get those "classic" styles like a really nailed down, well-crafted porter or stout or many other styles. its all just haze/"craft" lagers/session ipas etc.
               -for the classic styles you can get the prices are insane now. i got a 500ml bottle of timothy taylor landlord the other day. $3.95. thats a lot of money for what would cost about 90 cents to a dollar to make.
2. i generally just make beer for personal consumption, but i do feel proud that i make my own stuff and people around here whove had it like it.
3. the process is okay, the formulation is fun. i have a KISS system though don't cut any corners except re: hot side oxidation and potential oxidation during transfer/bottling. as someone else said, if i could have some labourer do it as reliably as i do for 20 bucks per brew i would probably do that.


re: dry yeast. i had some issues come up this week and thanks to dry diamond lager yeast i can simply delay my intended brew for next weekend. i haven't used dry in a while, we'll see how it goes. the k-97 had a 5 inch krausen at its peak 2 days ago.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Wilbur on November 19, 2021, 07:00:19 pm
I brew because I enjoy almost getting something right. Like hanging a picture just out of level.

Just got some dried Lutra, excited to try it (In a few months). Got to try Omega Cosmic Punch with some mash hopping first. And brew a Stjordol and some lagers with Bayern Lager.

BTW, just ordered a sack of Briess maltgems from Ritebrew, some yeast-$17 2 day shipping!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Fire Rooster on November 20, 2021, 05:14:08 am
I brew because I enjoy almost getting something right. Like hanging a picture just out of level.

Just got some dried Lutra, excited to try it (In a few months). Got to try Omega Cosmic Punch with some mash hopping first. And brew a Stjordol and some lagers with Bayern Lager.

BTW, just ordered a sack of Briess maltgems from Ritebrew, some yeast-$17 2 day shipping!

I've had interest with malt gems for some time.
Have you used it before ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 20, 2021, 05:55:08 am
Just ordered 4 more packets of Diamond Lager yeast from Label Peelers. Still on sale, with free shipping.

I use this as a backup, in case my harvested slurry is slow to take off. It rarely is.

Kegged 10 gallons of German Pils yesterday, made with Avangard & Weyermann malt, and Diamond yeast. It will be entered in an upcoming competition.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Wilbur on November 20, 2021, 10:38:53 am
I brew because I enjoy almost getting something right. Like hanging a picture just out of level.

Just got some dried Lutra, excited to try it (In a few months). Got to try Omega Cosmic Punch with some mash hopping first. And brew a Stjordol and some lagers with Bayern Lager.

BTW, just ordered a sack of Briess maltgems from Ritebrew, some yeast-$17 2 day shipping!

I've had interest with malt gems for some time.
Have you used it before ?

Thanks
I have not, seems like an interesting product. Planning on doing a few lagers and an IPL to test it out.

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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 20, 2021, 11:53:44 am
Try WY1007 or 1728. I typically ferment both of those at 52f and get strong fermentation.

I have used both of those cultures and the blow-off from them does not sound like someone is kicking the side of the blow-off container at 52F. That is what S-23 sounded like to me.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 20, 2021, 12:00:09 pm
Try WY1007 or 1728. I typically ferment both of those at 52f and get strong fermentation.

I have used both of those cultures and the blow-off from them does not sound like someone is kicking the side of the blow-off container at 52F. That is what S-23 sounded like to me.

I just had a 5.5 gal. batch with 1007 blow out of an 8 gal. fermenter.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 20, 2021, 12:43:14 pm
I just had a 5.5 gal. batch with 1007 blow out of an 8 gal. fermenter.

That is only because 1007 produces a massive head.  That is different than a culture that does not produce a large head that is blowing gas off like crazy.  Wyeast 1007 ferments strongly in the high 50s, but not in the low 50s.  While less affected by lower temperatures than most S. cerevisiae cultures, it lacks the cryotolerance of a true lager yeast strain because it lacks the S. eubayanus genetic admixture that lager strains enjoy.  One is going to get a large head with 1007 because it is a true top-cropping yeast strain.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on November 20, 2021, 12:47:19 pm
I just had a 5.5 gal. batch with 1007 blow out of an 8 gal. fermenter.

That is only because 1007 produces a massive head.  That is different than a culture that does not produce a large head that is blowing gas off like crazy.  Wyeast 1007 ferments strongly in the high 50s, but not in the low 50s.  While less affected by lower temperatures than most S. cerevisiae cultures, it lacks the cryotolerance of a true lager yeast strain because it lacks the S. eubayanus genetic admixture that lager strains enjoy.  One is going to get a large head with 1007 because it is a true top-cropping yeast strain.

Mark, there was a steady stream of bubbles from the airlock.  Not distinguishable as single bubbles, just a constant release of gas.  Pretty much the same for 1728 in my Wee Shroomy.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 20, 2021, 12:50:16 pm
Well, I kegged the beer I made with S-23.  It did not taste all that different from the beers I made with W-34/70 and Diamond lager.  I am curious as to if Fermentis improved their production process for this culture because I do not sense the nastiness that other people have claimed.  One thing that I can say is that the beer tastes closer to Pilsner Urquell (PU) than the versions I made with W-34/70 and Diamond (the recipe for all three version was identical except the yeast culture), so there is more than genetic sequencing pointing to this culture originating from the same culture as the PU H-Strain.  The beer has the mild floral and fruit signature of PU.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 20, 2021, 01:00:33 pm
I am curious as to if Fermentis improved their production process for this culture because I do not sense the nastiness that other people have claimed. 

can't wait till i can state this with my current k-97 batch.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: MDL on November 20, 2021, 02:08:03 pm
Mark,

What temp did you pitch and ferment the S23 at?

When I toured the PU brewery and tasted the beer out of the wood fermenters I recall thinking it had similar esters to some of the Kolsch beer we had just been drinking in Cologne.

It really tasted more like cool fermented ale than lager.

The draft beer at PU in the beer garden and surrounding town was more “lager” like. But still very different from German lagers. Fruitier and fuller on the palate.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 20, 2021, 02:26:52 pm
Mark,

What temp did you pitch and ferment the S23 at?

I fermented at 52F until fermentation slowed.  I raised the temperature to 59F until I no longer sensed active fermentation at which time I raised the temperature to 64F.  I achieved 82.75% AA.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 20, 2021, 02:57:09 pm
Mark,

What temp did you pitch and ferment the S23 at?

When I toured the PU brewery and tasted the beer out of the wood fermenters I recall thinking it had similar esters to some of the Kolsch beer we had just been drinking in Cologne.

It really tasted more like cool fermented ale than lager.

The draft beer at PU in the beer garden and surrounding town was more “lager” like. But still very different from German lagers. Fruitier and fuller on the palate.

The reason is that beer in the wood fermenters (open air fermentation) is the original recipe, brewed with the original method. That beer is only for guests who tour the brewery. It is not packaged, or available anywhere outside of the brewery.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: MDL on November 20, 2021, 03:18:08 pm
So does PU use a different yeast for the wood fermented beer?

And did I hear correctly that White Labs Pils type yeast was found to be an ale strain?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on November 20, 2021, 04:10:41 pm
I have made two batches with S23 recently. Both have been good. I will definitely add S23 to my list of good dry lager yeasts. I agree it is a bit different than 34/70. I think the beers I have made with it are a bit lighter and crisper.

The first beer was a honey lager. The only problem with this beer was sometimes I found the honey flavors distracting. Most nights I found this one to be a great quaffable yellow lager.

The second beer was a amber lager with Sterling. That beer is very good.  The caramel flavors are pretty strong and the hops are coming through nicely.

Fermentis says S23 is good “for the production of fruitier and more estery lagers.”  I don’t taste any fruity. Sometimes I notice a complexity that I can’t describe well.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 20, 2021, 09:15:57 pm
So does PU use a different yeast for the wood fermented beer?

All I know is the wood open air ferment barrels is the original method and the recipe is their original recipe.
That is what they told us when we toured the brewery.
And it’s a beer brewed exclusively for the guests of the brewery.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 20, 2021, 10:08:10 pm
So does PU use a different yeast for the wood fermented beer?

All I know is the wood open air ferment barrels is the original method and the recipe is their original recipe.
That is what they told us when we toured the brewery.
And it’s a beer brewed exclusively for the guests of the brewery.

why would they make the recipe different? you mean they have a different grist and hop schedule for this "special" PU?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 21, 2021, 05:44:11 am
So does PU use a different yeast for the wood fermented beer?

All I know is the wood open air ferment barrels is the original method and the recipe is their original recipe.
That is what they told us when we toured the brewery.
And it’s a beer brewed exclusively for the guests of the brewery.

why would they make the recipe different? you mean they have a different grist and hop schedule for this "special" PU?

We toured the Pilsner Urquell brewery a few years ago. At the very end of the tour, we each received a glass of non-filtered, non-pasteurized beer. This was beer that was fermented in the open air wood barrels, that we passed by during part of the tour.
It is their original recipe. And it is the original brewing method that was employed by the brewery decades ago.

That is all I know. If you want more info on the matter, perhaps contacting the brewery would be of help.

Here is an actual photo of the open air wood barrel fermenter. I thought they were just "props", but the brewery guide explained the whole story to us.

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-6SVVrpqL4aGVN8crLXyphWl_j1hzwcUEpndmB0aupaG-bMUU-faqsHtWwGZFdHa3ldMTLfbtJ__wYVBQ_4iTow?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1606430781)

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-6SVVrpqL4aGVN8crLXyphWl_j1hzwcUEpndmB0aupaGNHp2otS-y0ZoPVJfiC8C9Kwg5ydwHipy3aIZBf9dNYQ?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1606430853)

(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-6SVVrpqL4aGVN8crLXyphWl_j1hzwcUEpndmB0aupaHhW8IkAor_u1os33_Ux3l84xJ2Twu75QF_jizMkB1ZdA?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1606430738)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on November 21, 2021, 06:38:38 am
And did I hear correctly that White Labs Pils type yeast was found to be an ale strain?

Yes, WLP800 is actually Sacch. cerevisiae, i.e., an "ale" strain.  It is not the same as other yeasts but is closely related to Wyeast 2565 Kolsch yeast.  The Kolsch yeasts including WLP800 are located on the left side of this diagram:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210217033607/http://beer.suregork.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brewing_yeast_tree_Oct_2019.pdf

And this is based on the Langdon, Hittinger, et al. study:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/709535v1.article-info

See following sheet for summation of these links and many other sources:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 22, 2021, 04:28:57 pm
S-23 is definitely a lager strain and definitely on the far side of the Frohberg cultures.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 22, 2021, 05:40:45 pm
S-23 is definitely a lager strain and definitely on the far side of the Frohberg cultures.

i know it's just commentary on observations you've made, but if you ever even combined your thoughts on particular yeasts in an excel file, that would be read by many i believe.  :)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 24, 2021, 02:42:10 pm
I am just one set of data points.  That being said, I threw out brewing log books that spanned over 20 years during a recent move.   That was before I decided to take the hobby back up in the second half of 2020.  All of my notes are in those log books.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 24, 2021, 03:55:53 pm
I am just one set of data points.  That being said, I threw out brewing log books that spanned over 20 years during a recent move.   That was before I decided to take the hobby back up in the second half of 2020.  All of my notes are in those log books.

Yes, each one of us is but a single data point. But the data points are still valid.
Sounds like you "de-cluttered". When in doubt, throw it out.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on November 24, 2021, 04:05:07 pm
Yes, each one of us is but a single data point. But the data points are still valid.
Sounds like you "de-cluttered". When in doubt, throw it out.

In my case, I was trying to make moving easier because I was in transitional stage of my of life.  How much stuff is a person willing to continue to move. Although, I will honest by saying that that information would be valuable today.  There are things I have forgotten.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Wilbur on November 25, 2021, 09:41:55 am
Yes, each one of us is but a single data point. But the data points are still valid.
Sounds like you "de-cluttered". When in doubt, throw it out.

In my case, I was trying to make moving easier because I was in transitional stage of my of life.  How stuff is a person willing to continue to move. Although, I will honest by saying that that information would be valuable today.  There is things I have forgotten.
You might like a rocket book. It's not as nice to write on as normal paper, but it can digitize your notes and allow you to easily upload them to the cloud. After you upload them you can wipe the sheet clean and reuse it. I started doing it because my notes were never where I wanted them to be.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: RC on November 29, 2021, 03:04:46 pm
I have recently tapped four lagers that I made with (dry) Diamond lager: marzen, vienna, pre-pro, and American. I finally tried this yeast after all the talk on this forum about how great it is. Mash pH's (measured at room temp) ranged from 5.53 - 5.61 and flameout pH's ranged from 5.21 - 5.30. The OGs ranged from 1.047 - 1.057 and each beer got two sachets, rehydrated.

I had high hopes but I am not as impressed as everyone else seems to be, at least on the initial, dry pitch. They are solid, enjoyable beers, but there is a distinct tartness to them that I do not care for and that I do not get from S-189 or 34/70. I am rather annoyed by this tartness.

I am hoping the harvested slurry makes a less tart lager.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on November 29, 2021, 07:18:41 pm
I have recently tapped four lagers that I made with (dry) Diamond lager: marzen, vienna, pre-pro, and American. I finally tried this yeast after all the talk on this forum about how great it is. Mash pH's (measured at room temp) ranged from 5.53 - 5.61 and flameout pH's ranged from 5.21 - 5.30. The OGs ranged from 1.047 - 1.057 and each beer got two sachets, rehydrated.

I had high hopes but I am not as impressed as everyone else seems to be, at least on the initial, dry pitch. They are solid, enjoyable beers, but there is a distinct tartness to them that I do not care for and that I do not get from S-189 or 34/70. I am rather annoyed by this tartness.

I am hoping the harvested slurry makes a less tart lager.

appreciate the note. i too am trying it for the first time, it'll be a long while before its ready though. i actually only used one sachet as it was 18litres (~4.5gallons) and about 1.045 gravity
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on November 29, 2021, 08:24:32 pm
Regarding Diamond, and a harvested slurry...

Just pitched 2 qts into 11 gallons of wort. The slurry was in a gallon glass jug, and was harvested ten days ago.

I decided to "feed it" with some sterile wort (big mistake). The bottle was shaken up, and left to sit for a few minutes on the counter. Shook it again a few minutes later, and I had a full blown volcano on my hands. Yeast was bubbling out of the bottle under pressure. A more accurate description is the yeast was spraying out of the bottle. Had to immediately pitch the yeast as it was out of control.

This is probably the 10th or maybe 12th generation. I have lost track.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Visor on December 01, 2021, 10:33:12 am
 2 quarts of slurry for 11 gallons, holy crap! Were you aiming for nuclear meltdown? I figure I'm overpitching when I use a 1/2C harvested cake [which I'm guessing equates to ~1C medium slurry] in a 2 qt starter for 7 gallons of wort. Your results are not at all surprising.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on December 01, 2021, 10:40:06 am
Regarding Diamond, and a harvested slurry...

Just pitched 2 qts into 11 gallons of wort. The slurry was in a gallon glass jug, and was harvested ten days ago.

I decided to "feed it" with some sterile wort (big mistake). The bottle was shaken up, and left to sit for a few minutes on the counter. Shook it again a few minutes later, and I had a full blown volcano on my hands. Yeast was bubbling out of the bottle under pressure. A more accurate description is the yeast was spraying out of the bottle. Had to immediately pitch the yeast as it was out of control.

This is probably the 10th or maybe 12th generation. I have lost track.

Have you ever split a batch to experiment with pitching slightly less?  I found I got better results by pitching less, but still sufficient, yeast.  What I perceive as greater cell growth seemed to improve the flavor. Might be worth splitting a batch to see what you think. 
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 01, 2021, 07:31:30 pm
If you look at the open fermenters at PU, they write the day and pitch temperature  in chalk on the side. I have similar pictures, and the 5C pitch temp is 41F. I have a picture that shows thae temp over a few days as the beer free rises, but never gets too warm.

Might dig that up someday soon.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 02, 2021, 05:23:36 am
Regarding Diamond, and a harvested slurry...

Just pitched 2 qts into 11 gallons of wort. The slurry was in a gallon glass jug, and was harvested ten days ago.

I decided to "feed it" with some sterile wort (big mistake). The bottle was shaken up, and left to sit for a few minutes on the counter. Shook it again a few minutes later, and I had a full blown volcano on my hands. Yeast was bubbling out of the bottle under pressure. A more accurate description is the yeast was spraying out of the bottle. Had to immediately pitch the yeast as it was out of control.

This is probably the 10th or maybe 12th generation. I have lost track.

Have you ever split a batch to experiment with pitching slightly less?  I found I got better results by pitching less, but still sufficient, yeast.  What I perceive as greater cell growth seemed to improve the flavor. Might be worth splitting a batch to see what you think.

Yes, this has been considered recently. And the next harvest will be split.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on December 04, 2021, 09:18:43 am
I hate to admit it, but the batch I made with S-23 is probably the best batch of beer I have made in the entire time I have been brewing.  That admission is difficult for me to make because I have kept an arms distance from dry yeast.  S-23 is more aromatic than W-34/70 or Diamond Lager, but it also does not mute delicate flavors and aromas like W-34/70 and Diamond.  This is the first batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner I made that has the floral, slightly fruity, fresh mown hay aroma with the slightly spicy finish that Pilsner Urquell has when it is fresh.  It also has the same soft mouthfeel.  I am beginning to wonder if this culture is difficult for Fermentis to produce reliably. I know that I was not a fan of the batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner that I made with W-34/70 due to its tartness.  What I do know is the recommendation to ferment at 12C is on the money.  S-23 is definitely my favorite of the three cultures so far, but I tend to prefer pale lagers when I brew lager.  Diamond made an outstanding Vienna.  It is just that it does not allow delicate hop and malt flavors to shine through as well as S-23, which is critical with a beer as naked as Bohemian-style Pilsner.  I believe S-23 would probably be a better yeast culture for true Vienna-style lager that is made with a grist composed mostly of Vienna malt.   I am not certain that its strengths work as well in darker lager styles where one is looking for chewy malt character.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on December 04, 2021, 09:43:39 am
I hate to admit it, but the batch I made with S-23 is probably the best batch of beer I have made in the entire time I have been brewing.  That admission is difficult for me to make because I have kept an arms distance from dry yeast.  S-23 is more aromatic than W-34/70 or Diamond Lager, but it also does not mute delicate flavors and aromas like W-34/70 and Diamond.  This is the first batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner I made that has the floral, slightly fruity, fresh mown hay aroma with the slightly spicy finish that Pilsner Urquell has when it is fresh.  It also has the same soft mouthfeel.  I am beginning to wonder if this culture is difficult for Fermentis to produce reliably. I know that I was not a fan of the batch of Bohemian-style Pilsner that I made with W-34/70 due to its tartness.  What I do know is the recommendation to ferment at 12C is on the money.  S-23 is definitely my favorite of the three cultures so far, but I tend to prefer pale lagers when I brew lager.  Diamond made an outstanding Vienna.  It is just that it does not allow delicate hop and malt flavors to shine through as well as S-23, which is critical with a beer as naked as Bohemian-style Pilsner.  I believe S-23 would probably be a better yeast culture for true Vienna-style lager that is made with a grist composed mostly of Vienna malt.   I am not certain that its strengths work as well in darker lager styles where one is looking for chewy malt character.
I have made two batches recently with S-23. Both turned out great. The first was a light lager with 10% honey in the grain bill. The honey came through so well I decided I don’t want honey in my light lagers! It was a distraction.

My second S-23 batch was a SABL style beer. It is quite malty with 7% C60 and. 10% Munich I. Very good beer.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on December 04, 2021, 11:36:47 am

I have made two batches recently with S-23. Both turned out great. The first was a light lager with 10% honey in the grain bill. The honey came through so well I decided I don’t want honey in my light lagers! It was a distraction.

My second S-23 batch was a SABL style beer. It is quite malty with 7% C60 and. 10% Munich I. Very good beer.
[/quote]

whats a SABL?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on December 04, 2021, 11:51:07 am
SABL= Samuel Adams Boston Lager
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 05, 2021, 04:57:25 am
The current ferment underway, with the 12th gen Diamond, is progressing better than the previous brews. Perhaps this is because the yeast slurry was fed with sterile wort, giving it a head start?

This is the one that literally was blowing stuff out of my storage jug. Under pressure. It was scary.

Previously, we just pitched the yeast directly from the fridge, without making any type of starter for it. It has always worked, but this time just seems to be doing a bit better based on the CO2 activity. Oh wait...might need to find a way to recapture that, do not want to harm the planet.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on December 05, 2021, 11:57:33 am
The current ferment underway, with the 12th gen Diamond, is progressing better than the previous brews. Perhaps this is because the yeast slurry was fed with sterile wort, giving it a head start?

You need be careful with the word “sterile.” I can assure you that wort is not absolutely sterile after boiling because the temperature is not high enough to kill spores. Wort has to be processed at 121C/250F under 15psi above normal atmospheric at sea level for 15 minutes  to render it sterile.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 05, 2021, 01:43:08 pm
The current ferment underway, with the 12th gen Diamond, is progressing better than the previous brews. Perhaps this is because the yeast slurry was fed with sterile wort, giving it a head start?

You need be careful with the word “sterile.” I can assure you that wort is not absolutely sterile after boiling because the temperature is not high enough to kill spores. Wort has to be processed at 121C/250F under 15psi above normal atmospheric at sea level for 15 minutes  to render it sterile.

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on December 05, 2021, 02:21:09 pm

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 05, 2021, 03:53:56 pm

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on December 05, 2021, 04:25:46 pm

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

what does that even mean? do you think the beer that you made after several "generations" of yeast growth tastes the same or similar to the first one?

 if it doesn't, then buy a new sachet of yeast. if it does, and you find the taste pleasing then brew on.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 05, 2021, 05:06:38 pm
Let me help…

Yeast mutates. We are on generation XXX. Not sure which variant we are actually on. And now we know we can’t propagate pure cultures as our wort is not sterile. But the yeast does spread, but seems less effective with each new variant.  ;)

We brew different beer styles with each generation, so no way to do an A / B comparison.

All the beer is good, very good. So there is your answer.

The 3 latest kegs are wicked good, a German Pils, Vienna Lager, and Festbier. All made with the same yeast. I have 6 new dry packages of Diamond, but no need to use them yet.

Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: fredthecat on December 05, 2021, 06:15:32 pm
Let me help…

Yeast mutates. We are on generation XXX. Not sure which variant we are actually on. And now we know we can’t propagate pure cultures as our wort is not sterile. But the yeast does spread, but seems less effective with each new variant.  ;)

We brew different beer styles with each generation, so no way to do an A / B comparison.

All the beer is good, very good. So there is your answer.

The 3 latest kegs are wicked good, a German Pils, Vienna Lager, and Festbier. All made with the same yeast. I have 6 new dry packages of Diamond, but no need to use them yet.

You are on generation "xxx", you mean 30? what is a "variant" of yeast and why do you believe you have a "variant" rather than diamond lager yeast?

what do you mean the yeast "spreads"?

you absolutely could compare german pils, vienna lager and festbier they are incredibly similar beers. if you noticed some very different esters or yeast related profile elements you could assume its the yeast.

i really don't know what youre on about as you've basically stated that you're happy with the yeast's results. im not even sure if diamond is confirmed as either cerevisiae or pastorianus, but it is not radically mutating every single batch as you (plural) seem to imagine it is. you have diamond lager yeast.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Iliff Ave on December 05, 2021, 08:18:57 pm
If your results are good who cares? Suprised you can go that long without some serious mutation.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 05, 2021, 08:28:21 pm
If your results are good who cares? Suprised you can go that long without some serious mutation.

We keep the harvest hyper clean. And the aroma is what I go by. If it still has a clean fresh fragrance, we go with it.
Not sure how many times this particular yeast has been harvested, but way more than a dozen.
That’s why I said gen XXX. I really lost count.

Yes, the results are still very good.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Saccharomyces on December 06, 2021, 03:52:41 pm
So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

In addition to wort not being absolutely sterile, most pitching cultures pick up house microflora over time.  No matter what steps one takes brewing yeast will be subjected to house dust at one point or another during normal brewing operations. House microflora does not crawl into one's fermentation vessel.  It rides through the air on house dust.  The pitched culture will be the dominate culture, but it will not be the only culture after repitching many times.  Eventually variants will enter the picture as well and how one crops and repitches will place selective pressure on the variants that form.  Variants are cells from the original reference culture with mutations. Not all of the cells will be variants and not all variants produce bad beer. Yeast cells are a model organism for studying genetics for a reason.

With that said, I do not think that serially repitching a culture is a bad thing.  The more time a culture is repitched, the more robust it gets because repitching places selective pressure on the culture.  What matters is if one is happy with how the culture has drifted.  The cultures we enjoy today are all the result of genetic drift from being repitched.  The practice of going back and creating a new seed culture every few batches is relatively new in the grand scheme of brewing.  The head brewer at Anchor commented a few years ago that they just serially repitch the culture without boing back and growing a new seed culture every few batches. I am sure that is why their Christian Schmidt-based culture is so stable.  It has been repitched and pushed into a certain direction since the seventies.  The culture may not be as stable in another brewery, but it has adapted to Anchor's brew house.  How we take our crop and how much we repitch are critical to the longevity of a culture.  Your practice is not ideal for long-term health of a culture.  Biomass growth is necessary to sustain a culture over time.  When repitching, only the sedimented volume counts. I am pretty sure that when you say that you pitched two quarts of cropped yeast, you are pitching supernatant along with yeast solids, so your pitch rate is a little misleading.  Most brewers, when they talk about repitching slurrly, they are talking about thick sedimented slurry.  You should only count the sedminented volume as your pitch.  Most of us discard the supernatant when repitching.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 06, 2021, 04:25:23 pm
Ok...you got me going in a whole other direction now. We are getting ready to keg 10 gallons of Tex-Festbier, brewed with Texas Premium Pilsner Malt (look for a full review to come). The yeast will be harvested, as always, but this time the yeast volume will be divided in two.

My yeast slurry is stored in gallon glass jugs. It is allowed to sediment out, with about two inches of crystal clear beer forming on top of the yeast cake after a few days. This beer is then decanted, and the remaining yeast is normally pitched in this manner. Only last time did I feed boiled and cooled wort into the yeast, gave the jug a good shake, at which time it awoke with violent explosions.

Our sediment is peanut butter like in viscosity. It requires a huge effort to get it suspended in solution prior to pitching.

I estimate that 2/3's of the slurry is pretty much solid (peanut butter like) yeast cake. It is free of undesirable items. Any particulate matter that is there is microscopic in size, as to the naked eye it appears hyper-clean.

Because the harvesting is done in my brewery / shop, in the open air, certainly wild yeast and/or dust has been introduced.

Suggestions on how we can improve our operation are welcome.

I will get some good up close photos of our yeast, and post them here. I'm certain that most of the brewers on this forum are more advanced in this than we are.

All of the beers brewed with the multi-generational yeast have been very good. So as of today, that is not something that we are concerned about.

These pictures do not represent Diamond we harvested. Instead, Wyeast London Ale on the left, S-04 on the right.
(https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/render/00-6SVVrpqL4aGVN8crLXyphWl_j1hzwcUEpndmB0aupaEZYB2rLVXnmu6mL_d8IWt_ldMTLfbtJ__wYVBQ_4iTow?cn=THISLIFE&res=medium&ts=1638834718)
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on December 07, 2021, 08:43:48 am

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 07, 2021, 10:53:25 am

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?
Title: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: tommymorris on December 07, 2021, 11:01:58 am
Are there ways professional breweries purify their slurries; every batch or periodically? I thought I have read about acids that can be used to kill contaminate, but allow the yeast to survive. Maybe I’m crazy.

Mark mentioned that Anchor never goes back to the source yeast.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: erockrph on December 07, 2021, 11:50:10 am

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?

Short answer - as long as the culture tastes and performs as well as you like it.

Longer answer - there are two separate issues, contamination and genetic drift. As far as contamination goes, as long as your yeast is outcompeting the other microbes that come along at pitching, you probably won't notice a significant flavor contribution from the other microbes. With genetic drift, over time you may notice that the culture become more or less flocculant or attenuative as you select for certain cells based on how you collect them. If your beers become too dry, less attenuated, or develop some off flavors, then it may be time to start over with a fresh culture.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 07, 2021, 11:56:33 am

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?

The furthest I went with successive re-pitching was 25 total pitches, using an American Lager yeast, over the course of about 2 years.  I experienced no problems and simply wanted to change to another yeast.  It was as robust as when I started in terms of fermentation time and attenuation.  Could there have been fall off in some measurable way?  Perhaps, but no one complained about the beers made with it.  I rarely go beyond 6-9 pitches anymore and sometimes just one or two - the dry lager yeasts are good enough and cheap enough that I don't sweat it.

I recall hearing of homebrewers who used the water purification tablets to wash yeast for re-building and re-use, but I have never seen the need.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 07, 2021, 11:57:46 am

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?

Short answer - as long as the culture tastes and performs as well as you like it.

Longer answer - there are two separate issues, contamination and genetic drift. As far as contamination goes, as long as your yeast is outcompeting the other microbes that come along at pitching, you probably won't notice a significant flavor contribution from the other microbes. With genetic drift, over time you may notice that the culture become more or less flocculant or attenuative as you select for certain cells based on how you collect them. If your beers become too dry, less attenuated, or develop some off flavors, then it may be time to start over with a fresh culture.

Thanks, that is good insight.
We have been lucky so far with pitching multi-gen yeast. I guess we will find out some day when a batch of beer does not meet our standards, due to poorly performing yeast, and then will be dumped...or given to my in laws. Never let a bad beer go to waste!
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 07, 2021, 12:02:08 pm

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?

The furthest I went with successive re-pitching was 25 total pitches, using an American Lager yeast, over the course of about 2 years.  I experienced no problems and simply wanted to change to another yeast.  It was as robust as when I started in terms of fermentation time and attenuation.  Could there have been fall off in some measurable way?  Perhaps, but no one complained about the beers made with it.  I rarely go beyond 6-9 pitches anymore and sometimes just one or two - the dry lager yeasts are good enough and cheap enough that I don't sweat it.

I recall hearing of homebrewers who used the water purification tablets to wash yeast for re-building and re-use, but I have never seen the need.

Yes, dry yeast (lager /ale) is inexpensive. Well...depends on where you buy it. But the primary reason we harvest, and repitch, is because of the performance of the harvested yeast.

The 2nd, 3rd, etc., generation seems to do better than the previous generation.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: ynotbrusum on December 07, 2021, 12:05:49 pm
I agree that those re-pitches often out perform the initial pitch of dry yeast - just remember to aerate well and give nutrient to the re-pitches. (My experience, anyway).
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on December 07, 2021, 12:07:07 pm

Ok, that's fine. So nothing we have done for over 3 decades can be considered sterile. No big deal, I guess.
Did not know that you had to hit 250 degrees.

For lack of a better description, wort is pasteurized at the end of the boil, meaning that all vegetative cells have been killed. The wort is sterile enough for making beer, but not sterile enough for propagating pure cultures.

So does this mean my 12th, 14th, or 20th harvested yeast slurry is no longer true to the 1st generation?

Very likely

That is my suspicion. But each generation continues to perform well, and the resulting beer is always good.
I wonder how long we can continue with this procedure, before we have to dump the yeast and start over?

How long is a piece of string?  I just pay attention to how the slurry looks, smells and performs to decide.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on December 07, 2021, 12:08:02 pm
Are there ways professional breweries purify their slurries; every batch or periodically? I thought I have read about acids that can be used to kill contaminate, but allow the yeast to survive. Maybe I’m crazy.

Mark mentioned that Anchor never goes back to the source yeast.

The breweries I've worked with around here did nothing but xfer it from one fermenter to another.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 07, 2021, 04:03:28 pm
Are there ways professional breweries purify their slurries; every batch or periodically? I thought I have read about acids that can be used to kill contaminate, but allow the yeast to survive. Maybe I’m crazy.

Mark mentioned that Anchor never goes back to the source yeast.

The breweries I've worked with around here did nothing but xfer it from one fermenter to another.

That is the ideal practice. It requires constant brewing, or at least brewing on a regular basis. We have done this previously with very good results.
Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: dannyjed on December 08, 2021, 04:20:27 pm
I repitched both WY 1056 and WY 2206 for twenty generations and I noticed no change in performance. I was trying to see how many times it would take for some sort of genetic drift, but it didn’t happen. Eventually, I wanted to try other yeasts and gave up. Another thing that I remember Mark stating was that actually each fermentation is around 5 generations of yeast replicating itself.


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Title: Re: Let's Discuss Dry Yeast
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on December 09, 2021, 03:34:25 am
I repitched both WY 1056 and WY 2206 for twenty generations and I noticed no change in performance. I was trying to see how many times it would take for some sort of genetic drift, but it didn’t happen. Eventually, I wanted to try other yeasts and gave up. Another thing that I remember Mark stating was that actually each fermentation is around 5 generations of yeast replicating itself.

That is good to know.
I guess a human analogy would be every 7 to 10 years most, but not all, of our cells are replicated.