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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 08:20:16 am

Title: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 08:20:16 am
I've been thinking about making a NEIPA for some time. Read a bunch of recipes and was really inspired by the Survivables Handbook by YCH.  True to my nature I couldn't follow any recipe verbatim, and adjusted as I saw fit.  So I mashed, and I boiled without hops, and I dosed my wort with 2 ounces each of Eukanot, Idaho-7, and Idaho Gem just before chilling (10 gallon batch), cooled, transferred, cooled some more, pitched.  48 hours post pitch everything was humming along quite nicely, I pull a sample for SG, see I'm far enough along, and dose with 5oz CryoPop.  I taste my sample and OH MAN does it taste good. I'm really jazzed.  Next day I pull another SG sample, taste it and WTF... I think I ruined it.  Harsh, bitter, and a strong bite at the back of my throat. Gave it 2 days and dumped the dry-hop charge. I'm nearing terminal gravity, almost time for post ferment dry hop.  Should I go forward with the 2nd dry hopping?  Will that bite at the back of my throat mellow out after everything drops out?
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: goose on January 15, 2022, 08:37:25 am
I have found that bitterness tends to mellow after some time in the keg.  With my IPA's the first couple glasses out will be quite bitter and then mellow after a couple weeks.  Dry hopping will add aroma and will add no extra bitterness due to the fact that the alpha acids will not be isomerized (only boiling does that).  Assuming you keg your beer, you can always transfer it to the keg, crash it, let it sit, taste and then add the dry hops for about 3 days.
If you only bottle, then you probably could go ahead and dry hop.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: denny on January 15, 2022, 08:49:06 am
What you are tasting isn't bitterness....it's tannic harshness from the hop overload.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 08:52:12 am
Will my tannic harshness mellow with time?
Title: Will it mellow out?
Post by: jverduin on January 15, 2022, 08:52:59 am
I've been thinking about making a NEIPA for some time. Read a bunch of recipes and was really inspired by the Survivables Handbook by YCH.  True to my nature I couldn't follow any recipe verbatim, and adjusted as I saw fit.  So I mashed, and I boiled without hops, and I dosed my wort with 2 ounces each of Eukanot, Idaho-7, and Idaho Gem just before chilling (10 gallon batch), cooled, transferred, cooled some more, pitched.  48 hours post pitch everything was humming along quite nicely, I pull a sample for SG, see I'm far enough along, and dose with 5oz CryoPop.  I taste my sample and OH MAN does it taste good. I'm really jazzed.  Next day I pull another SG sample, taste it and WTF... I think I ruined it.  Harsh, bitter, and a strong bite at the back of my throat. Gave it 2 days and dumped the dry-hop charge. I'm nearing terminal gravity, almost time for post ferment dry hop.  Should I go forward with the 2nd dry hopping?  Will that bite at the back of my throat mellow out after everything drops out?
Lookup hop burn or hop bite on the internet and you’ll see a decent amount of information tied to NEIPAs in particular.

I find what you are describing in mine when they are really young. I usually keg by day 6 or 7 and there tends to be a lot of matter in suspension (when I use A24 Dry Hop yeast it’s really noticeable). When I sample it, There tends to be a noticeable burning, scratchy sensation at the back of my throat. It goes away in a few days of post transfer cooling and carbonation. By day 10, I don’t notice much anymore.


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Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 09:02:39 am
I was considering skipping the post ferment dry hop. Perhaps I will go forward as planned with 2nd dry hopping and encourage the beer to clear with a little gelatin.  With clearing and time I'm hoping that scratchy back-of-the-throat feeling will subside a little.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: RC on January 15, 2022, 10:08:59 am
Hop burn doesn't really go away, IME. Maybe it will mellow after a long time, but by then the hop aroma/flavor may have declined to the point of meh. You can try adding PVPP to pull out some of the polyphenols, but this might be a roll of the dice. The second dose of dry hops will amplify the burn even more, so if it's already unpleasant, you might want to skip that second dose.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: denny on January 15, 2022, 10:44:40 am
Will my tannic harshness mellow with time?

Cold crashing will help precipitate out some of the polyphenols
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: Fire Rooster on January 15, 2022, 12:09:09 pm
My honest thoughts-

5 oz CryoPop  :o Isn't that equal to 10 oz of pellet hops ? CryoPop is very potent
I used 1/2 oz for a 4.5 gallon batch, and thought that was too much.
(2 ounces each of Eukanot, Idaho-7, and Idaho Gem)

16oz (1 lb) of pellet hops  :o

And your considering more hops ?
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 01:01:31 pm
Cryo was only used in the active ferment dry hop. The whirlpool charge of Eukanot, Idaho-7 and Idaho Gem was whole cone hops. The original recipe called for 17 ounces of cryo during active ferment.  That seemed like way too much, so I backed it down to 5 oz cryo.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: Fire Rooster on January 15, 2022, 01:52:42 pm
Cryo was only used in the active ferment dry hop. The whirlpool charge of Eukanot, Idaho-7 and Idaho Gem was whole cone hops. The original recipe called for 17 ounces of cryo during active ferment.  That seemed like way too much, so I backed it down to 5 oz cryo.

17 oz Cryo, wow, that's a big hop punch.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: chinaski on January 15, 2022, 01:58:02 pm
The original recipe called for 17 ounces of cryo during active ferment.  That seemed like way too much, so I backed it down to 5 oz cryo.
That's ludicrous- what volume is that recipe for?  I would check that- I can't imagine spending that much cash on one batch of homebrew.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: majorvices on January 15, 2022, 02:30:20 pm
I have never used cryohop but once you get over .7 oz per gallon of beer dry hops you will start to see diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 15, 2022, 03:29:26 pm
Error. I miscalculated.  Recipe called for 8.6oz at active ferment.  11 gallons x 3.8 liters per gallon x 5.8 grams per liter / 28 grams per ounce = 8.66 ounces.  Seemed like a lot so I went with 5oz.  I kept the whirlpool charge pretty close to the recipe and bumped the post ferment charge up just a little.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: chinaski on January 15, 2022, 03:34:59 pm
I have never used cryohop but once you get over .7 oz per gallon of beer dry hops you will start to see diminishing returns.
I add 1 oz. Cryohops to 5-gallons as a hop stand in a pale ale and it's perfect along with some non-cryo leaf keg hops
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: narvin on January 15, 2022, 04:04:23 pm
If you haven't chilled it yet, it will definitely be more mellow once the hop matter that is suspended settles out.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 26, 2022, 08:57:52 am
Follow up.  Dumped the hop sludge and gave it a few extra days to crash and settle.  Just transferred to kegs and tasted the overage.  It tastes amazing, just what I was hoping for.  That back of the throat burn is gone.  Can't wait to try it fully carbed.  Thank you everyone for your comments.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: erockrph on January 26, 2022, 02:44:43 pm
Follow up.  Dumped the hop sludge and gave it a few extra days to crash and settle.  Just transferred to kegs and tasted the overage.  It tastes amazing, just what I was hoping for.  That back of the throat burn is gone.  Can't wait to try it fully carbed.  Thank you everyone for your comments.
This is why I think the idea of needing to drink your IPAs within milliseconds of packaging has been overstated over the years. IPAs improve after a week or more of conditioning, just like about every other beer. Fresh doesn't have to mean "as soon as humanly possible".
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: redrocker652002 on January 26, 2022, 08:28:09 pm
Did you happen to write down the recipe and would you be interested in sharing?  LOL. 
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 28, 2022, 10:43:54 am
I'd be happy to share the recipe.  It's out in the shop, I'll get it and post later.
Title: Re: Will it mellow out?
Post by: MNWayne on January 29, 2022, 09:42:52 am
Red, here's the recipe.

9 gallons mash water treated with 30ml phosphoric acid,
5.5 gallons sparge water treated with 15gr gypsum
17# Rahr pilsner
 2# Western white wheat
 2# Viking oat malt
 1# Viking caramel 100
 1# Viking cookie malt
Mash at 154F, 60 minutes
Sparge and collect approx 12 gal. OG=1.050
Boil 30 minutes
Turn off heat, at 205F add whole cone hops and hold for 20 minutes
2oz Idaho-7 11%
2oz Idaho Gem 10.4%
2oz Eukanot 13.2%
Cool to 68F, pitch 1.5L Imperial Juicy SNS starter
36 hrs post pitch (SG 1.025) dump 1/2 pint of trub, add 5oz Cryo Pop #2304
48 hrs later, dump 1/2 pint hop sludge
Dump about 1/2 pint sludge daily until FG
At 1.013 FG add 2oz Azacca and 2oz Sabro regular pellets, not cryo.
48 hrs later, resume daily 1/2 pint hop dumps
Hold at ferment temp for 3 days, then cool to 38F
Hold at 38F for 4 days, dumping hop sludge daily.
Keg and carbonate.