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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Megary on January 24, 2022, 08:57:02 am

Title: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on January 24, 2022, 08:57:02 am
Anyone yet?  I can't really find much practical user information on this "hybrid" Saison yeast.  Maybe because it's not widely available??  I've read Lallemand's web  page  (https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-farmhouse/) and it sounds interesting, but don't they all? 

If anyone has any firsthand knowledge, good or bad, I'd be grateful.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Drewch on January 24, 2022, 11:09:13 am
Anyone yet?  I can't really find much practical user information on this "hybrid" Saison yeast.  Maybe because it's not widely available??  I've read Lallemand's web  page  (https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en/united-states/product-details/lalbrew-farmhouse/) and it sounds interesting, but don't they all? 

Following.

I'm hoping to try this one out soon, too.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: dmtaylor on January 24, 2022, 03:45:57 pm
I found some early data beginning to roll in at the following link.  Looks like we can expect average attenuation of about 82-83%.  Not the 90-something of some other saison strains, but still relatively high enough.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/new-lalbrew-farmhouse-yeast.693397/#post-9224224
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Drewch on January 24, 2022, 06:38:50 pm
Sounds like gist of it is: run it hot (25-30) and use some simple sugar adjunct if you want it to finish as low as a "normal" saison.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Cliffs on January 25, 2022, 09:47:37 am
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: denny on January 25, 2022, 10:01:30 am
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be

Have you used it?
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: dmtaylor on January 25, 2022, 10:58:21 am
I don't necessarily need my saisons of, say, OG 1.055 to turn out being 7% ABV.  Maybe I prefer one of a reasonably higher FG and lower ABV.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: neuse on January 25, 2022, 12:30:39 pm
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on January 25, 2022, 01:29:57 pm
For me, it's mainly about the taste and how fermentation temperature might influence the finished beer.

Just looking at Lallemand's site, Farmhouse is nearly the same as Belle Saison on the "Flavor Wheel", with the big exception being that Farmhouse apparently is capable of some Tropical Fruit flavors.  Interesting.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Cliffs on January 26, 2022, 05:21:43 pm
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be

Have you used it?
dont see a reason to. There are already wonderful saison yeasts on the market, and I prefer my saisons highly attenuated
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: narvin on January 26, 2022, 05:41:06 pm
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.

When I bottle Belgian beers, I use Belgian bottles because I aim for high carbonation, but I've never seen any surprising over-carbonation with the Dupont yeast specifically.  Not all diasaticus strains are equal, and there are other genes that regulate the STA1 behavior.

Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: erockrph on January 26, 2022, 06:19:42 pm
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.

When I bottle Belgian beers, I use Belgian bottles because I aim for high carbonation, but I've never seen any surprising over-carbonation with the Dupont yeast specifically.  Not all diasaticus strains are equal, and there are other genes that regulate the STA1 behavior.
Right, if you're at FG before bottling then you have nothing to worry about. Yeast can only create as much carbonation as the fermentable extract will allow. You just need to make sure that fermentation is finished before bottling.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: denny on January 27, 2022, 08:59:35 am
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be

Have you used it?
dont see a reason to. There are already wonderful saison yeasts on the market, and I prefer my saisons highly attenuated

If you haven't used it, how do you know there's no reason to use it?
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: neuse on January 27, 2022, 11:03:07 am
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.

When I bottle Belgian beers, I use Belgian bottles because I aim for high carbonation, but I've never seen any surprising over-carbonation with the Dupont yeast specifically.  Not all diasaticus strains are equal, and there are other genes that regulate the STA1 behavior.
Right, if you're at FG before bottling then you have nothing to worry about. Yeast can only create as much carbonation as the fermentable extract will allow. You just need to make sure that fermentation is finished before bottling.
I can't say from experience because I avoid diastaticus strains, but I've read about it. Apparently, cross contamination of a non-diastaticus yeast with just a little diastaticus yeast left from a previous batch can cause a problem. Continued enzyme action and fermentation can be very slow and not be noticed when taking gravity samples three days apart. I read everything I can find about it - maybe it will turn out to be a myth?
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: denny on January 27, 2022, 11:04:45 am
I don't know if it's a myth, but I haven't heard of any homebrewers having a problem because of it.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: coolman26 on January 27, 2022, 02:48:57 pm
I consistently use yeast that are diastaticus +.  I’ve never had any issues with bottle bombs or problems with other ferments. I brewed with these yeasts long before I knew what diastaticus was. I’ve always used plastic fermenters. Once l learned. about it, I do use marked fermenters for these beers.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: narvin on January 27, 2022, 03:12:28 pm
I don't want to say that the issue of cross contamination at the homebrew scale is overblown, but as long as you clean well, it's not a big deal.  I've never had a problem even with Brett.

Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: erockrph on January 27, 2022, 03:17:20 pm
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.

When I bottle Belgian beers, I use Belgian bottles because I aim for high carbonation, but I've never seen any surprising over-carbonation with the Dupont yeast specifically.  Not all diasaticus strains are equal, and there are other genes that regulate the STA1 behavior.
Right, if you're at FG before bottling then you have nothing to worry about. Yeast can only create as much carbonation as the fermentable extract will allow. You just need to make sure that fermentation is finished before bottling.
I can't say from experience because I avoid diastaticus strains, but I've read about it. Apparently, cross contamination of a non-diastaticus yeast with just a little diastaticus yeast left from a previous batch can cause a problem. Continued enzyme action and fermentation can be very slow and not be noticed when taking gravity samples three days apart. I read everything I can find about it - maybe it will turn out to be a myth?
Every yeast strain has its own nuances, but once you learn them you shouldn't have any big surprises when it comes to performance. I use 3711/Belle Saison quite a lot, and I brew several batches with 3864 every time it gets released. Both are diastaticus strains, and I've never had any bottle bombs or overcarbonated beers from dozens of batches using these two. I know that 3711 takes an extra 5 days or so to eat the last few points of gravity, so I just plan for an extra week in primary. 3864 ferments like any other Belgian strain in my experience, and even though it is a diastaticus strain it hits 80-85% attenuation reliably depending on how much sugar I use. When it's done it's done.

Also, my usual cleaning regimen of PBW and Star San has been sufficient for diastaticus strains. I've had no issues with cross contamination going from Belle followed by a lager in the same fermenter.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: ingy on January 27, 2022, 06:20:28 pm
I just kegged a table saison brewed with this yeast. OG was 1.036, FG was 1.004 for 88.6% attenuation. I haven't tasted it yet carbonated, so just giving out some real world numbers. I like that it didn't get super low FG in a low gravity beer.
Jim in Mpls
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on January 28, 2022, 12:24:30 pm
I just kegged a table saison brewed with this yeast. OG was 1.036, FG was 1.004 for 88.6% attenuation. I haven't tasted it yet carbonated, so just giving out some real world numbers. I like that it didn't get super low FG in a low gravity beer.
Jim in Mpls

Thanks for that.  Please keep us posted.

I finally ordered a pack, so I'll get to see for myself (in a few months)!
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: kramerog on January 29, 2022, 08:24:45 am
I just kegged a table saison brewed with this yeast. OG was 1.036, FG was 1.004 for 88.6% attenuation. I haven't tasted it yet carbonated, so just giving out some real world numbers. I like that it didn't get super low FG in a low gravity beer.
Jim in Mpls
Jim, what temp did you ferment at?
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: ingy on February 22, 2022, 09:13:07 pm
I just kegged a table saison brewed with this yeast. OG was 1.036, FG was 1.004 for 88.6% attenuation. I haven't tasted it yet carbonated, so just giving out some real world numbers. I like that it didn't get super low FG in a low gravity beer.
Jim in Mpls
Jim, what temp did you ferment at?

I fermented on the low end-I pitched at 65, let it free ride up to about 68, then bumped it up to 72 to finish.
I would definately ferment it warmer next time.
Lallemand says "In most cases, lower
fermentation temperatures (close to 20°C) will primarily give notes of
banana and clove, something that is much closer to Belgian blonde and
Belgian wit style ales. When fermented closer to 30°C, we observe that
traditional Saison characteristics are much more predominant. Brewers
reported their beers as having more peppery notes, fruitiness, red apple,
and bubblegum."
Other members of my club brewed with this yeast and the warmer fermented beers were more bubblegummy and saisony. My beer turned out nice after some conditioning. I need to tweak the recipe some for more body.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Robert on April 14, 2022, 11:38:33 am
Here is another data point. Just got finished a 7%  saison with this strain. I made a 1500ML starter 24hrs ahead of time with one pack of yeast.  Pitched yeast at 73F with 1.5tsp of fermaid K. Then set temp to 74F @ 24 HR, 75F @ 48HRs, 76F @ 72HRs and held until Final gravity @ 96Hrs.

1Hr mash at 148F

8 LBS Pilsner
1 LB Vienna
8 OZ flaked wheat
8 OZ corn sugar (Boil only)
2 OZ caramunich

OG 1.061
FG 1.008
Attenuation 86%
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: fredthecat on April 14, 2022, 02:31:52 pm
bookmarked for later checking. im hoping its confirmed non-diastaticus
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on June 20, 2022, 07:51:23 am
I finally got a chance to use Farmhouse yesterday, and I'll update as I go.

90-minute Mash at 152°
One 11g packet into 3 gallons of 1.052 wort.

67% Pilsner
22% Spelt
11% Munich

I decided against any sugar because 1) that's my typical Saison grain bill and 2) I'd like to see what kind of attenuation I get from Farmhouse without inflating the number by adding sugar.

Pitched at 66°, fermentation showed some life in about 4-5 hours, chugging along with conviction at 12hrs.  The fermentation has bumped the temp up to about 68° right now, and I think I'll just let it go until fermentation settles down.  Maybe then I will move the fermenter into a mid-70's area.  Not sure though.  I may just let it finish at ambient cellar temp of 67°.  If my intention is to play around with this yeast, I'll need to set some baseline.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: fredthecat on June 20, 2022, 09:06:37 am
I finally got a chance to use Farmhouse yesterday, and I'll update as I go.

90-minute Mash at 152°
One 11g packet into 3 gallons of 1.052 wort.

67% Pilsner
22% Spelt
11% Munich

I decided against any sugar because 1) that's my typical Saison grain bill and 2) I'd like to see what kind of attenuation I get from Farmhouse without inflating the number by adding sugar.

Pitched at 66°, fermentation showed some life in about 4-5 hours, chugging along with conviction at 12hrs.  The fermentation has bumped the temp up to about 68° right now, and I think I'll just let it go until fermentation settles down.  Maybe then I will move the fermenter into a mid-70's area.  Not sure though.  I may just let it finish at ambient cellar temp of 67°.  If my intention is to play around with this yeast, I'll need to set some baseline.

spelt flakes, not malt right? i have access to spelt flakes and have been waiting for some reason to use them someday
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on June 20, 2022, 09:44:28 am
Actually, Spelt Malt, from a craft maltster in PA.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: fredthecat on June 20, 2022, 11:42:12 am
Actually, Spelt Malt, from a craft maltster in PA.

nice, please let me know how the flavour is when its done
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 21, 2022, 08:24:46 am
the only reason to use this yeast is if you're worried about diastatic cross contamination-a legitimate worry on the commercial side, but Im not sure how concerned us homerewers need to be
I feel that those who bottle condition should be concerned about diastaticus - possible bottle bombs.

I have saisons brewed with 3711, which is diastaticus, from years ago and never had any bottles blow up. I have beers bottled after plenty of 3711 beers and similarly never had problems. As long as cleaning/sanitation is good then the probability of problems is exceedingly low. Even if you end up with some rogue diastaticus in your beer picked up in your equipment it is still not a substantial risk. The cell count would be so low that it would take a long time for the diastaticus cells to ferment enough to create that much pressure to blow bottles. Some of my bottles are closing in on a decade old and not explosive despite warm storage.

Remember the concern over diastaticus yeast didn't come from rogue saison yeast in a brewery; it was contaminated pitches coming from the yeast lab to the brewery. The diastaticus mixed in the pitch had the opportunity in that situation to grow up from the onset and become a problem. Unless you think you have contaminated starters the probability of an issue is not something IMO we should be overly concerned with.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on July 02, 2022, 10:52:05 am
I finally got a chance to use Farmhouse yesterday, and I'll update as I go.

90-minute Mash at 152°
One 11g packet into 3 gallons of 1.052 wort.

67% Pilsner
22% Spelt
11% Munich

I decided against any sugar because 1) that's my typical Saison grain bill and 2) I'd like to see what kind of attenuation I get from Farmhouse without inflating the number by adding sugar.

Pitched at 66°, fermentation showed some life in about 4-5 hours, chugging along with conviction at 12hrs.  The fermentation has bumped the temp up to about 68° right now, and I think I'll just let it go until fermentation settles down.  Maybe then I will move the fermenter into a mid-70's area.  Not sure though.  I may just let it finish at ambient cellar temp of 67°.  If my intention is to play around with this yeast, I'll need to set some baseline.

Kegged this morning.

So I just let the yeast run it’s course without futzing with temperature changes.  The yeast took the temperature up to 74 at peak activity and then it gradually fell back to about 68, where I let it be.  I use a small Speidel without a lot of head space so I set up a blowoff tube as is normally needed for any Saison I brew.  But this was unwarranted as the activity never got that crazy, fermenting out like a typical beer.  2 weeks in the fermenter.

Went from 1.052 —-> 1.008, almost 85%.

Sample taste was really nice. Definite Saison character, clove/pepper, a bit of lemon (hopped with Nelson Sauvin, so there’s that), spicy bite, no banana, no tropical fruit, dry-ish but not overly so, nothing funny or “off”.

Looking forward to this.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on July 14, 2022, 08:02:46 am
I finally got a chance to use Farmhouse yesterday, and I'll update as I go.

90-minute Mash at 152°
One 11g packet into 3 gallons of 1.052 wort.

67% Pilsner
22% Spelt
11% Munich

I decided against any sugar because 1) that's my typical Saison grain bill and 2) I'd like to see what kind of attenuation I get from Farmhouse without inflating the number by adding sugar.

Pitched at 66°, fermentation showed some life in about 4-5 hours, chugging along with conviction at 12hrs.  The fermentation has bumped the temp up to about 68° right now, and I think I'll just let it go until fermentation settles down.  Maybe then I will move the fermenter into a mid-70's area.  Not sure though.  I may just let it finish at ambient cellar temp of 67°.  If my intention is to play around with this yeast, I'll need to set some baseline.

Kegged this morning.

So I just let the yeast run it’s course without futzing with temperature changes.  The yeast took the temperature up to 74 at peak activity and then it gradually fell back to about 68, where I let it be.  I use a small Speidel without a lot of head space so I set up a blowoff tube as is normally needed for any Saison I brew.  But this was unwarranted as the activity never got that crazy, fermenting out like a typical beer.  2 weeks in the fermenter.

Went from 1.052 —-> 1.008, almost 85%.

Sample taste was really nice. Definite Saison character, clove/pepper, a bit of lemon (hopped with Nelson Sauvin, so there’s that), spicy bite, no banana, no tropical fruit, dry-ish but not overly so, nothing funny or “off”.

Looking forward to this.

One final update (I promise!):

Almost two weeks in the keg, carbed to about 13psi.

I'm getting lemon notes with a classic Saison bite of pepper/clove. The Lallemand flavor wheel suggests "tropical fruit" is a major player with Farmhouse, but I'm getting none of that.  Maybe if I fermented at a much warmer temperature this flavor would have been more apparent, but maybe it would also unbalance and mess up the whole works.  Also not getting any banana/hot phenols.  It's hard to describe, but the flavor feels right and seems less forced on the tongue as opposed to Belle/3711, which are fine but maybe a bit...mechanically uninspired.

This is certainly not as bone dry as Belle/3711, the yeast (and spelt?) has left a bit of a smooth mouthfeel. Not sweet mind you, just not as crisp and sharp like some Saisons are.  Would a touch of sugar dry out, crisp up and improve the mouthfeel, or take away that nice touch of softness?

The beer pours with a nice white head that stays clingy as she goes. It's not clear at all and I'm assuming it never will.   Very refreshing.  I dare say it's the best Saison I've ever made, though I'm certainly no great Saison brewer.

Maybe next time I'll add a smidge of sugar, and maybe I might push the temp just a wee bit further.  Or maybe not.

There's a pic here (https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/what-are-you-drinking-right-now.2751/page-578#post-164200) if you are interested.

There are so many nice Saison yeasts out there, all offering a little something different.  Personal preference picks the winner, but I would not hesitate to use Farmhouse again.  I'm sure I will.
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: dmtaylor on July 14, 2022, 09:02:44 am
Thanks for the detailed tasting notes!  I've been following this thread with interest.

A couple of little questions:

Based on the photo, is that a haze in the beer, or does the glass just have some condensation?  I'm curious about beer clarity and how well the yeast floccs out.  Or maybe there might be a protein haze that clears as it warms up.

I guess along those same lines, do you detect any tartness/acidity to the beer?

Regardless of these details, this yeast definitely seems like a great one to try, especially for those who don't want the 95% attenuation of Belle Saison/3711.  The lemon and low spice seem right in line, but with lower attenuation.  Another tool in the toolbox!
Title: Re: LalBrew Farmhouse
Post by: Megary on July 14, 2022, 09:56:19 am
Thanks for the detailed tasting notes!  I've been following this thread with interest.

A couple of little questions:

Based on the photo, is that a haze in the beer, or does the glass just have some condensation?  I'm curious about beer clarity and how well the yeast floccs out.  Or maybe there might be a protein haze that clears as it warms up.

I guess along those same lines, do you detect any tartness/acidity to the beer?

Regardless of these details, this yeast definitely seems like a great one to try, especially for those who don't want the 95% attenuation of Belle Saison/3711.  The lemon and low spice seem right in line, but with lower attenuation.  Another tool in the toolbox!

Good questions.

For the record, I have used this base recipe about a half dozen times, changing only the yeast.

That is mostly haze in the beer, though the glass may have had a touch of condensation.  Full disclosure, that was the first full pour from a top draw after one week in the keg.  The recipe used 22% Spelt and from the spec sheet this malt has a roof scraping protein % of 15.5.  The maltster also recommends its usage in "Saisons, Hazies and traditional wheat recipes".  How much of the haze in the picture can be attributed to the yeast and how much to the spelt...I can't answer that.  And in all fairness, the same question can be asked about the smoothness of the mouthfeel.  I'm sure the spelt played a part in that as well.

Unfortunately, I didn't follow the beer's clarity as I drank it.

Yes, some tartness and acidity are certainly present.  I'd describe it as more acidity on the tongue and not really tartness in the cheeks, if that makes any sense at all.  So now you have me wondering if that acidity mixed with the Nelson Sauvin hops is what is giving me "lemon".  Again, more questions than answers.  One oddity, normally I get a distinct "white wine" from Nelson Sauvin in my Saisons, but that flavor is pretty hard to find here.  Maybe it's just the nature of hops and that they must always be difficult... or maybe the yeast is enhancing this flavor and stepping on that one.

Just my one data point, but, as you say, I definitely think Farmhouse has its place.  And not just because its STA-1 negative, which never really factored in my decision to use this in the first place.

Another interesting quote from Lallemand is this:
"the strain will not produce hydrogen sulfide (H2S) off-flavors, therefore enhancing the saison yeast aroma characteristics."

I can buy into that and maybe that's why I'm liking this yeast better than Belle/3711.