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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 03:52:25 pm

Title: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 03:52:25 pm
Is 2124 and 34/70 the same yeast?
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 06, 2022, 04:12:01 pm
No, not at all.

Wyeast 2124 is close to WLP029, WLP833, and Wyeast 2206.

W-34/70 is close to Wyeast 2035 American Lager.

References:

http://beer.suregork.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brewing_yeast_tree_Oct_2019.pdf

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 04:15:34 pm
No, not at all.

Wyeast 2124 is close to WLP029, WLP833, and Wyeast 2206.

W-34/70 is close to Wyeast 2035 American Lager.

References:

http://beer.suregork.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Brewing_yeast_tree_Oct_2019.pdf

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16XRUloO3WXqH9Ixsf5vx2DIKDmrEQJ36tLRBmmya7Jo/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks. My 2124 is very sluggish, after pitching two fresh smack-packs. Was thinking about throwing in some 34/70 to help things along.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 06, 2022, 04:27:36 pm
Well you can go ahead and try that if you want.  It might not help, but it definitely won't hurt anything.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 04:45:51 pm
Well you can go ahead and try that if you want.  It might not help, but it definitely won't hurt anything.

This is in 5 gallons, a 10 gallon split batch. The other 5 gallons has our “house yeast”, Diamond Lager. It is happily chugging away.

The 2124 is working, but very little visible foam, almost like nothing is happening. But my blow off tube is active, with a few bubbles every 30 seconds, after 30 hours post pitching.

I am tempted to try a blended yeast…with the following options:

W-34/70
S-189
Diamond Lager

After watching Chris White’s presentation on blended yeast, I am curious!

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: tommymorris on May 06, 2022, 04:47:35 pm
Well you can go ahead and try that if you want.  It might not help, but it definitely won't hurt anything.

This is in 5 gallons, a 10 gallon split batch. The other 5 gallons has our “house yeast”, Diamond Lager. It is happily chugging away.

The 2124 is working, but very little visible foam, almost like nothing is happening. But my blow off tube is active, with a few bubbles every 30 seconds, after 30 hours post pitching.

I am tempted to try a blended yeast…with the following options:

W-34/70
S-189
Diamond Lager

After watching Chris White’s presentation on blended yeast, I am curious!

What are your thoughts?
You might try warming it up a couple of degrees. I don’t know much about that yeast though.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 04:59:50 pm
This is supposed to be a Czech Premium Lager.

They say 45 - 55F is the temp range.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: tommymorris on May 06, 2022, 05:05:04 pm
This is supposed to be a Czech Premium Lager.

They say 45 - 55F is the temp range.
I ferment lagers all the time in the mid-fifties. Things go much faster up there.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 06, 2022, 07:09:46 pm
I might not ferment cold anymore, at least not very often. I have found many lager yeasts to perform cleanly in the 60s F or even at room temperature.  So I agree with warming it up to see if that helps.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 06, 2022, 07:15:59 pm
Ok, might bump the temp up some.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Joshua Hughes on May 06, 2022, 07:20:17 pm
I feel like this yeast love it 55-62. I’ve fermented it warmer but under pressure
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: denny on May 07, 2022, 08:38:12 am
Is 2124 and 34/70 the same yeast?

I disagree with Dave somewhat.  From what the manufacturer has told me, 34/70 has the same lineage as 2124.  But that doesn't mean they produce the same results.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 07, 2022, 12:11:34 pm
Is 2124 and 34/70 the same yeast?

I disagree with Dave somewhat.  From what the manufacturer has told me, 34/70 has the same lineage as 2124.  But that doesn't mean they produce the same results.

The Wyeast website claims theirs is the Carlsburg strain.

I always thought 34/70 was from Weihenstephan.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: denny on May 07, 2022, 12:14:52 pm
Is 2124 and 34/70 the same yeast?

I disagree with Dave somewhat.  From what the manufacturer has told me, 34/70 has the same lineage as 2124.  But that doesn't mean they produce the same results.

The Wyeast website claims theirs is the Carlsburg strain.

I always thought 34/70 was from Weihenstephan.

Could very well be.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: MDL on May 07, 2022, 12:34:20 pm
Weihenstephan Hefebank lists 34/70, 34/70-6.94and also 34/78.

There was a masterbrewers podcast with Fermentis about their 34/70 which was referred to as “their version” of this yeast. I imagine there are differences in subtle performance characteristics between different companies versions of the products.

In my own brewery Fermentis 34/70 and Diamond lager perform very differently. I’ve heard they are both 34/70, though there is at least some reference on the internet that Diamond is Munich 308.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 07, 2022, 01:12:13 pm
Weihenstephan Hefebank lists 34/70, 34/70-6.94and also 34/78.

There was a masterbrewers podcast with Fermentis about their 34/70 which was referred to as “their version” of this yeast. I imagine there are differences in subtle performance characteristics between different companies versions of the products.

In my own brewery Fermentis 34/70 and Diamond lager perform very differently. I’ve heard they are both 34/70, though there is at least some reference on the internet that Diamond is Munich 308.

My experience is the same, with Diamond and 34/70 performing vastly different from each other.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 08, 2022, 05:55:29 am
Watching the interview with Altstadt's head brewer, they use Wyeast 2124. They ferment at 50 F. He said you want a slow start to fermentation. A 24 hour lag time is desirable.

Their Altstadt Lager (Munich Helles) won a Gold at the GABF.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Village Taphouse on May 10, 2022, 03:19:50 pm
I disagree with Dave somewhat.  From what the manufacturer has told me, 34/70 has the same lineage as 2124.  But that doesn't mean they produce the same results.
I have always heard that 2124 (Weihenstephan), 34/70 and Lallemand Diamond all come from the same place.  Could they be slightly different or have different numbers for attenuation, flocculation, etc. now?  Yes.  I have never heard that 34/70 and 2035 were close.  I have used 2035 a few times to make something close to Yuengling.  It has a very distinct character.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 10, 2022, 04:29:08 pm
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Village Taphouse on May 10, 2022, 06:25:46 pm
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Carlsberg might use it but I would be more likely to call it the Weihenstephan strain as opposed to the Carlsberg strain.  That description of "the most used lager yeast strain in the world" has been applied to 2124 and also to Diamond.  I believe 34/70 is either the same or similar.  2124 is from Wyeast, 34/70 is from Fermentis and Diamond is from Lallemand. 
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 05:22:21 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.

Carlsberg might use it but I would be more likely to call it the Weihenstephan strain as opposed to the Carlsberg strain.  That description of "the most used lager yeast strain in the world" has been applied to 2124 and also to Diamond.  I believe 34/70 is either the same or similar.  2124 is from Wyeast, 34/70 is from Fermentis and Diamond is from Lallemand.

We have 10 gallons fermenting now, a Premium Pale Czech Pilsner. Split batch, 5 gallons with Diamond (multiple generation harvest), and 5 gallons with Wyeast 2124, 2 fresh smack packs. Both are now working nicely at 50 degrees. Double decoction mash. 85% RO water, 15% moderately hard filtered tap water.

Will there be a noticeable difference in the finished beers?
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 11, 2022, 05:27:58 am
We have 10 gallons fermenting now, a Premium Pale Czech Pilsner. Split batch, 5 gallons with Diamond (multiple generation harvest), and 5 gallons with Wyeast 2124, 2 fresh smack packs. Both are now working nicely at 50 degrees. Double decoction mash. 85% RO water, 15% moderately hard filtered tap water.

Will there be a noticeable difference in the finished beers?

Most likely, yes.  They will both make tasty lagers.  Attenuations are different.  Even if the flavors are identical (which they probably won't be), you might pick up differences in alcohol and mouthfeel.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Village Taphouse on May 11, 2022, 07:12:32 am
We have 10 gallons fermenting now, a Premium Pale Czech Pilsner. Split batch, 5 gallons with Diamond (multiple generation harvest), and 5 gallons with Wyeast 2124, 2 fresh smack packs. Both are now working nicely at 50 degrees. Double decoction mash. 85% RO water, 15% moderately hard filtered tap water.

Will there be a noticeable difference in the finished beers?
My guess is that the 2124 batch will taste better but that's probably my bias coming through.  It's one of my favorite lager yeast strains and I think 2124 might be the pin for one of my debit cards!   ;D  Although I always hear that 34/70 and Diamond are similar yeasts, what I get is a sort of "2124-lite" character.  It's very similar but not quite the same.  When the beer is done and you have a glass of that beer in front of you that was made with 2124, take a big whiff of it.  That aroma is what sets the 2124 beer apart (for me anyway).  There is good aroma from Diamond and 34/70 too but it's not quite the same. 
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 07:32:10 am
We have 10 gallons fermenting now, a Premium Pale Czech Pilsner. Split batch, 5 gallons with Diamond (multiple generation harvest), and 5 gallons with Wyeast 2124, 2 fresh smack packs. Both are now working nicely at 50 degrees. Double decoction mash. 85% RO water, 15% moderately hard filtered tap water.

Will there be a noticeable difference in the finished beers?
My guess is that the 2124 batch will taste better but that's probably my bias coming through.  It's one of my favorite lager yeast strains and I think 2124 might be the pin for one of my debit cards!   ;D  Although I always hear that 34/70 and Diamond are similar yeasts, what I get is a sort of "2124-lite" character.  It's very similar but not quite the same.  When the beer is done and you have a glass of that beer in front of you that was made with 2124, take a big whiff of it.  That aroma is what sets the 2124 beer apart (for me anyway).  There is good aroma from Diamond and 34/70 too but it's not quite the same.

As soon as both beers are finished, and in the keg, I will provide a detailed flavor analysis. Not only from me, but a few of my brewing friends as well. Can't wait!
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: erockrph on May 13, 2022, 04:36:15 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: jeffy on May 13, 2022, 06:08:21 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
That's what I was thinking as well
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: denny on May 13, 2022, 08:38:14 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
That's what I was thinking as well

I third that
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: narvin on May 13, 2022, 09:09:24 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
That's what I was thinking as well

I third that

I don't believe there are any commercial Saaz strains left.  At least not in the homebrew catalog.

Any idea why they called it "Bohemian Lager" ?
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 11:05:38 am
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
That's what I was thinking as well

I third that

I don't believe there are any commercial Saaz strains left.  At least not in the homebrew catalog.

Any idea why they called it "Bohemian Lager" ?

Maybe this?

Bohemia is the westernmost and largest historical region of the Czech lands in the present-day Czech Republic. Bohemia can also refer to a wider area consisting of the historical Lands of the Bohemian Crown ruled by the Bohemian kings, including Moravia and Czech Silesia, in which case the smaller region is referred to as Bohemia proper as a means of distinction.

My Grandmother, and her sister, both spoke fluent Bohemian. Referred to as "Czech" today. This is the country my ancestors came from.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 13, 2022, 11:08:09 pm
Is 2124 not the Carlsberg strain, as per the Wyeast website?



Species: Saccharomyces pastorianus

Profile: This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68 °F (18-20 °C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.


Maybe they are referring to S. carlsbergensis - aka a Type I/Saaz-type lager yeast, vs a Type-II/Frohberg strain (as W-34/70 is)
That's what I was thinking as well

I third that

I don't believe there are any commercial Saaz strains left.  At least not in the homebrew catalog.

Any idea why they called it "Bohemian Lager" ?
Somewhere i read or heard on a podcast that no Saaz strains were identified in the genetic testing of commercial strains.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: dmtaylor on May 14, 2022, 06:49:24 am
Somewhere i read or heard on a podcast that no Saaz strains were identified in the genetic testing of commercial strains.

Yes that is a fact. Who knows if or when they will ever find any that are produced or released commercially.
Title: Re: Wyeast 2124 = Saflager W-34/70?
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 16, 2022, 08:27:19 pm
Just stole a 1 ounce sample from the 2124 ferment…it tastes great so far! But it still has a ways to go.
The Diamond version is right there, and they should both be finished in another week to 10 days.

This is a Premium Pale Czech Pilsner.