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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: lupulus on May 10, 2022, 05:01:36 pm

Title: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 10, 2022, 05:01:36 pm
Look at the article... (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/fd2befe25c0bea6f73e4472d35af3314.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/b6a53e9e04cca044b3f549652db1284c.jpg)

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Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Megary on May 10, 2022, 05:39:48 pm
As it applies to homebrewing, the answer is the internet.  Without it, about 5 people would know about keeping air out or the other thousand important things there is to know about making a decent beer.  Just my opinion. 
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: denny on May 10, 2022, 07:11:29 pm
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: fredthecat on May 10, 2022, 07:15:45 pm
As it applies to homebrewing, the answer is the internet.  Without it, about 5 people would know about keeping air out or the other thousand important things there is to know about making a decent beer.  Just my opinion.

1000% this. even more than just the internet is the way the internet has become ubiquitous and super accessible for non-tech savvy people. its about crowdsharing/sourcing info, and with more and more people online (probably reached the kind of saturation i mean in the late 2000s, where forums like HBT had dozens if not hundreds of posts each day) and easy ability to post video files and detailed, HQ pics or even just link people to online purchases directly.

lol about the low O2 thing, i don't think there are many people here who disagree that in an absolutely perfect brewing system there would be flushing of oxygen from tubing, methods to reduce o2 on the hotside, etc.

it's just two things:

1. i and many others homebrew absolutely delicious beers that are really exciting to drink and hold up really well to some great quality craft commercial beers. so narziss worked at weihenstephan and i presume worked with other bavarian breweries? yeah i like their stuff, its not my favourite, but its good. so how can we prove that his o2 purging makes some mystical super beer? which beer do i buy to taste this supreme oxygen-free malt taste?

2. the o2 reduction steps would be another big pile of work to do and costs incurred and frankly i just don't care enough to do it. a lot of people do really embrace a simple homebrewing style.

Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 10, 2022, 07:16:27 pm


As it applies to homebrewing, the answer is the internet.  Without it, about 5 people would know about keeping air out or the other thousand important things there is to know about making a decent beer.  Just my opinion.

We now have two opinions, Narziss and yours.

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Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: BrewBama on May 10, 2022, 08:05:50 pm
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
We do what we can and live with what we can’t.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: fredthecat on May 10, 2022, 08:20:47 pm
what is a good commercial example of this super beer? i'd like to try it. is it weihenstephaner? because i've had their beers many times
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 05:16:05 am
The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: dmtaylor on May 11, 2022, 05:32:37 am
Hmm.  I was going to say:

Dried yeasts that don't suck.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 05:37:41 am
Hmm.  I was going to say:

Dried yeasts that don't suck.

Absolutely! And how about this forum? This is where Diamond Lager Yeast was brought to my attention. Otherwise, I would never have known about it.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: narvin on May 11, 2022, 05:38:09 am
1946- is a rather arbitrary time period.  I guess you don't want to ask a German what their favorite scientific advances were regarding purity during the preceding decade.

If we were talking 20th century, I'd go with pure yeast. Before that, refrigeration.  Good malting is really important.  Oxygen is very important but I still think that separating it between hot side and cold side is a distinction that can't be understated, especially for homebrewers who aren't as worried about shelf life. But then again, my opinion doesn't carry the gravitas of Professor Narziss.  Good topic for discussion though.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 11, 2022, 06:25:49 am
what is a good commercial example of this super beer? i'd like to try it. is it weihenstephaner? because i've had their beers many times
No need to go that far. You can go with most current offerings of Sierra Nevada.

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Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Megary on May 11, 2022, 06:27:31 am


As it applies to homebrewing, the answer is the internet.  Without it, about 5 people would know about keeping air out or the other thousand important things there is to know about making a decent beer.  Just my opinion.

We now have two opinions, Narziss and yours.

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???
 Honestly not sure what your point is here.  Are we keeping score??
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 11, 2022, 06:32:14 am


The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.


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Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: hmbrw4life on May 11, 2022, 06:48:15 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: dmtaylor on May 11, 2022, 07:09:31 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

This very thread has about a 50/50 chance of becoming yet another example of why certain things need to be banned, in the same way as politics and religion.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 07:29:52 am


The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.

It was in a podcast some time ago, where he addressed issues about brewing, and stated that temp control and a few other tings were much more important than worrying about oxygen.

Of course, I am paraphrasing his comments, not quoting.

As for Bamforth's experience, the former head brewer at Bass Ale, and current Quality Control Manager for Sierra Nevada, I do not question his advice.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: narvin on May 11, 2022, 07:31:37 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: neuse on May 11, 2022, 07:59:48 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
We do what we can and live with what we can’t.
I do what I can and do a work-around to compensate for what I can't - by not giving the beer time to oxidize. I plan brew days so that I'm out of homebrew a few days before the new batch will be ready to drink. Then I drink all of that batch before starting to drink the next. This minimizes the time the beer will sit and oxidize. This isn't for everyone, but it's a simple low tech method of reducing oxidation.
Title: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: BrewBama on May 11, 2022, 08:15:27 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.
I agree. There are plenty of brewers here that have adopted end to end techniques to mitigate O2 that are in good standing simply by applying Wheaton’s Law.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: denny on May 11, 2022, 08:25:49 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.
We do what we can and live with what we can’t.

Exactly.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: denny on May 11, 2022, 08:28:01 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

I've always felt like that. M there is no change of my position.

People who were banned were banned because of their attitude toward others, not the information they presented.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on May 11, 2022, 08:37:32 am


The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.


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I love listening to Dr. Bamforth. He's engaging, practical and down to earth. In all the times I've heard him speak about beer, he has stated very clearly he does not home brew, so he can't comment directly on the subject. In fact I don't believe he ever was a brewer, he mostly worked in quality control, research and teaching in England and the US.
He has however commented on oxygen, especially post fermentation. Stressing the importance of reducing it or eliminating it altogether post fermentation. He has also changed his opinion slightly about HSA, saying it should be avoided. He then made an off handed comment about decoction mash; "why would you decoction mash if you're trying to avoid oxygen in the mash?". It should be noted that Narziss promotes decoction, a lot of seemingly contradictions. The truth is out there, I'm just not sure there is a single source on this subject.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 11, 2022, 08:59:10 am


The internet, certainly. It has brought an encyclopedia of hundreds of years of brewing history into our offices, and our living rooms, and our garage-breweries.

It has also brought to light many of the traditional practices that have now been shown to be not required.

Was it not Charlie Bamforth who stated that for home brewers, of the top 10 problems we face, oxygen is number 23?

It would be out of character.
When asked, Bamforth always states that he has never homebrewed.
If you find this top 10 list, please share.

It was in a podcast some time ago, where he addressed issues about brewing, and stated that temp control and a few other tings were much more important than worrying about oxygen.

Of course, I am paraphrasing his comments, not quoting.

As for Bamforth's experience, the former head brewer at Bass Ale, and current Quality Control Manager for Sierra Nevada, I do not question his advice.
Thanks so much for the clarification!
Bamforth has been taken out of context on this topic quite often.

He does know exposure to oxygen is much higher in homebrewing because of square-cube.

He does say that the cold side is, in his view, more important than the hot side (not that the hot side is unimportant).

I have more than 50 papers from him, and when he talks, I listen respectfully.

Same goes for Narziss, the highest authority in brewing in the past 50 years. He did write the book  in Brewing and published many papers.

Narziss is mostly a lager brewer; his thinking cannot be detached from this.

Bamforth is mostly an ale brewer, although he did brew a mass-market non-German lager.

The more we read from either one, the better brewers we will be.

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Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: hmbrw4life on May 11, 2022, 09:21:09 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.

Clearly not, plenty of those still here.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: hmbrw4life on May 11, 2022, 09:22:43 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

I've always felt like that. M there is no change of my position.

People who were banned were banned because of their attitude toward others, not the information they presented.

Hmm, a search of the AHA forum and the internet would disagree.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: dmtaylor on May 11, 2022, 09:44:10 am
Before this goes further south, I told you so.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: narvin on May 11, 2022, 09:49:40 am
I don't think there's any debate about that. It's simply a question of how far a homebrewing hobbyist wants to go to deal with it.

REALLY?! When did this transition from you happen?

Why are the folks who brought this forward still banned?

If anyone is still banned, I'd guess it's because they're an asshole.

Clearly not, plenty of those still here.

Good comeback.

I've said it before, even though I use many low oxygen techniques for lagers and am grateful for the information, I find the delivery method of the people who promote it to make it almost impossible to listen.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: lupulus on May 11, 2022, 10:18:52 am
I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

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Title: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: BrewBama on May 11, 2022, 10:23:56 am
A cpl thoughts:

Banning:  Lupulus and Bilsch, two of the authors of the original doc that introduced the techniques, haven’t been banned. Therefore, it must be something other than the information that causes banning.

Bamforth:  I usually cite my sources when quoting because of accusations of quoting out of context. What I found is bias sets in when two people read the same document and come away with different perspectives on what he said. (Like 180° complete opposites )

I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

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Couldn’t agree more. We don’t have to swing at every pitch.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on May 11, 2022, 10:33:12 am
I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

BTW, thanks for posting the article. It may not be for everyone, but it's interesting none the less.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: jeffy on May 11, 2022, 11:11:17 am
I am NOT putting this information here to stir any pot but to ensure this information is available to all homebrewers.

Can I please ask a favor of all?

If low oxygen is not your thing, let it be.

Thanks in advance!

Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk

BTW, thanks for posting the article. It may not be for everyone, but it's interesting none the less.
Yes, thanks for posting this.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Village Taphouse on May 11, 2022, 12:09:37 pm
I feel like most of us are on the same page.  I looked into reducing O2 during the process and I still do many of those things.  I do believe my beer improved because of it.  But I am really freaking tired of this topic and the friction that it causes on the various boards.  I usually state it this way:  I love drinking my beer.  Many times I would prefer to drink my own beer over many commercially-available beers.  When someone is at my place and taps themselves a beer they seem to be generally impressed and drink the beer(s) with enthusiasm and mention a number of times how good the beer is.  No, they're not BJCP judges.  They're beer drinkers.  That's what matters to me.  When I encounter a problem with all of that, I'll lift the hood and address it.  By now I feel like most veteran homebrewers have heard about LO brewing and they have had the chance to check it out or not check it out.  The concept that it has to be brought back up over and over again is exasperating.  If you like it, good.  If you see someone who is not following it, just move on. 
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: fredthecat on May 11, 2022, 12:37:10 pm


Truly, I just don't understand the point you are trying to make, and maybe you could explain it further. So commercial beer's greatest advancement was removing O2 on the hot side. Is this practice industry-wide now? Do most or all craft breweries do this?

I think big name bavarian beers (presumably most likely to have had direct or indirect involvement from narziss) can range from meh to great (but rarely mind-blowing). So what commercial examples would you recommend to really showcase this hot-side low O2 feature?









Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Village Taphouse on May 11, 2022, 12:44:28 pm
It was mentioned a number of times too that homebrewers are not necessarily looking for "long shelf life".  Yes we want our beer to be delicious and fresh-tasting when we tap a glass of it.  My beer is kept cold, carbed and kegged in an on-deck fridge and then it comes to the taps.  It has not gone through any travel, it has not been mishandled, gone from warm to cold, back to warm again, etc.  It used to be very rare that I would taste anything even remotely close to oxidation in my beers and that was if I tapped beer into a growler or bottles and then let it sit for a long period... and I pretty much never do that.  I have a lager on tap right now that was brewed in the fall of 2021 (long story) and it's delicious and not oxidized as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 11, 2022, 01:15:09 pm
Before this goes further south, I told you so.

That is exactly what my wife always tells me.....
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on May 11, 2022, 01:18:33 pm


Truly, I just don't understand the point you are trying to make, and maybe you could explain it further. So commercial beer's greatest advancement was removing O2 on the hot side. Is this practice industry-wide now? Do most or all craft breweries do this?

I think big name bavarian beers (presumably most likely to have had direct or indirect involvement from narziss) can range from meh to great (but rarely mind-blowing). So what commercial examples would you recommend to really showcase this hot-side low O2 feature?

I believe this was a question posed to Dr. Ludwig Narziss and that was his answer. From his perspective, it could very well be true. Pretty simple.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: hmbrw4life on May 11, 2022, 01:46:19 pm
A cpl thoughts:

Banning:  Lupulus and Bilsch, two of the authors of the original doc that introduced the techniques, haven’t been banned.


Unless Lupulus goes by another pseudonym, he was not part of the original group. This is correct, right Lupulus?



Therefore, it must be something other than the information that causes banning.

Its not the strawmans listed above either. So I guess we also ponder the same thing.


This group is an interesting study from the outside in.
Title: Re: The biggest technological advance in brewing in the last 75 years is...
Post by: denny on May 11, 2022, 01:47:58 pm
OK, that's enough of this crap.  Sorry.