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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Bel Air Brewing on May 12, 2022, 02:34:27 pm

Title: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 12, 2022, 02:34:27 pm
We all have made beers that were...well, not that great.

A very recent Munich Helles that I brewed fell into this category. Actually, might be one of the worst beers brewed here at Bel Air.
At first I thought it was good, taking a sample as it went into the keg.
But later, it had a pronounced aroma of movie theater buttered popcorn. This was also in the taste.
The buttered popcorn became more obvious as the beer warmed up.
I invited my brewing friend over to try a sample. He picked it up right away, saying the beer was flawed having a diacetyl taste and aroma.

So...I pulled the keg out of the lagering freezer, and set it at room temp. Waited 6 days. No improvement. None!

Next step, I pulled a pint of very fresh Diamond Yeast slurry from another beer, and pitched it in the room temp Munich Helles. 4 days later I crashed the keg, getting it down to 31 F.

Yesterday, I pulled a half pint of it and took it to my neighbor. This was a blind taste test, as the beer was in a stainless steel cup and he knew nothing other than it was a beer.

He took one sniff of the aroma, and immediately said..."Munich Helles". Dave said he could detect no flaws in this beer, and it was close to perfection.

I just now pulled another 1/2 pint to sample.

This beer, having been fixed, is the best example of a German beer that has come out of my brewery. It is good enough to make me think I'm in a beer hall in Munich Germany. It has that "it" flavor. Authentic. German.

It is with some sadness that I post this, as it is doubtful I could ever reproduce this particular beer.

But for those who make errors, there is always hope. A bad beer can be fixed!

And thanks to those of you who have offered help in the past, because this is where I got the idea of pitching fresh yeast slurry to fix a beer gone bad!
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 12, 2022, 02:56:04 pm
Sounds like another win for Bel Air Brewing.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 12, 2022, 04:37:41 pm
Sounds like another win for Bel Air Brewing.

Best beer yet.

If we can do it, anybody can do it. You too!

Fix mistakes, that is.

But it came so close to going down the toilet...

Edit: This is not a winner, as it was deeply flawed. It is fortunate that it was salvageable. Simply an error in my brewing technique.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: redrocker652002 on May 12, 2022, 10:03:12 pm
Awesome.   Gives me hope that maybe I can get my stuff together and make something worth bragging about.  LOL.  Great to hear, congrats.  RR
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 05:56:15 am
Awesome.   Gives me hope that maybe I can get my stuff together and make something worth bragging about.  LOL.  Great to hear, congrats.  RR

No bragging rights here, as I screwed the pooch big time. Not sure where the error was made.

But the real thrust of this thread is even a bad mistake can be fixed.

And thanks to the nice people on this forum, I have learned some techniques in regards to making repairs.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: purduekenn on May 13, 2022, 07:11:59 am
Awesome! Glad you can fix the beer.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 07:50:38 am
Awesome! Glad you can fix the beer.

Got lucky! Took some very fresh harvested yeast, perhaps a pint of slurry, and dumped it into the keg. It was at room temperature, around 74 degrees.

Had to bleed off the CO2 frequently (my contribution to global warming)

After a few days, 4 I think, chilled the beer back to 32.

It is night and day different. The yeast slurry not only ate up the diacetyl, but it really transformed the beer.

Can this procedure be used to eliminate other off flavors in beer?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: denny on May 13, 2022, 08:29:31 am
So basically you were krausening
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 08:48:34 am
So basically you were krausening

That is correct. The results are so good, that I would prefer to brew this way in the future.

Will krausening fix other issues / problems with off flavors?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: narvin on May 13, 2022, 09:19:06 am
Krausening will also consume any oxygen from the kegging/force carbonating process.  You could do something similar in a more repeatable way by spunding the beer.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: fredthecat on May 13, 2022, 10:18:40 am
i love it. great to hear.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 11:02:31 am
Krausening will also consume any oxygen from the kegging/force carbonating process.  You could do something similar in a more repeatable way by spunding the beer.

Good to know. Might have to try this next time we brew. Spunding.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 13, 2022, 11:23:24 am
When is the brewery opening to the public?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 01:11:00 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 13, 2022, 02:16:46 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!
From the sound of it, you’re already doing it. Keep it up!!!!
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 02:41:14 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!
From the sound of it, you’re already doing it. Keep it up!!!!

No, not even close. Got lucky a couple times. But a long ways to go to being consistent. That is my goal, consistency.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: denny on May 13, 2022, 02:42:25 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!

and lose your mind
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 04:54:19 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!

and lose your mind

That was the first thing to go!
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: fredthecat on May 13, 2022, 05:02:34 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!
From the sound of it, you’re already doing it. Keep it up!!!!

No, not even close. Got lucky a couple times. But a long ways to go to being consistent. That is my goal, consistency.

you frequently state that you make perfect pilsners and lagers. you've stated that knowledgeable people describe them as "the best in the world" etc. imho a brewer can't simply "get lucky" at this level. if getting perfect water profiles to go with the style, that doesn't happen by chance, it's intentional and not something a beginner homebrewer generally does. the rest is a repeatable process - ie. grists, mash, boil, fermentation.

you made a 20 gallon batch of one recent beer. if you're brewing at this scale you could start blending, not to mention that is a humongous amount of beer on the homebrew scale.

how can you not have consistency yet?

i have a primitive setup, and if i wanted to recreate a beer that i made i could do so from the notes i keep on each beer re: water, minerals, grains, mash temp/time, boil and hop additions. yeast and fermentation temp/time.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 13, 2022, 06:59:38 pm
When is the brewery opening to the public?

As soon as we learn how to brew some good beer!
From the sound of it, you’re already doing it. Keep it up!!!!

No, not even close. Got lucky a couple times. But a long ways to go to being consistent. That is my goal, consistency.

you frequently state that you make perfect pilsners and lagers. you've stated that knowledgeable people describe them as "the best in the world" etc. imho a brewer can't simply "get lucky" at this level. if getting perfect water profiles to go with the style, that doesn't happen by chance, it's intentional and not something a beginner homebrewer generally does. the rest is a repeatable process - ie. grists, mash, boil, fermentation.

you made a 20 gallon batch of one recent beer. if you're brewing at this scale you could start blending, not to mention that is a humongous amount of beer on the homebrew scale.

how can you not have consistency yet?

i have a primitive setup, and if i wanted to recreate a beer that i made i could do so from the notes i keep on each beer re: water, minerals, grains, mash temp/time, boil and hop additions. yeast and fermentation temp/time.

Full disclosure...if I ever stated that my beers are perfect, I was wrong. Yes, others have told me they were good. Some say very good. We got lucky being back-to-back (2021-2022) multiple 1st Place winners at the Bluebonnet Nationals.

Like all homebrewers, we make some beers that are good, some that are Ok, and a few that are mistakes. And that is what this thread is about.

A beer that was seriously flawed, and was able to be salvaged based on advice given to me right here on this forum. By the way, this was not my first example of a flawed beer.

If I could brew the exact same beer, day in and day out, with the exact same results, I would be satisfied.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Richard on May 13, 2022, 08:27:52 pm
If I could brew the exact same beer, day in and day out, with the exact same results, I would be satisfied.

I would be bored. I like variety. I am always brewing new beers, only some of which I choose to brew again.
I know that isn't the path to achieve consistency, but that isn't my goal.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: fredthecat on May 13, 2022, 08:36:07 pm

If I could brew the exact same beer, day in and day out, with the exact same results, I would be satisfied.

i think this could be pretty easily done. as i said above. take detailed notes. do the same ingredients, procedure hot and cold side, get a feel for the yeast. i believe you have said you are many generations down on a culture of diamond lager. start using the same processes, ie. collect yeast in the same manner, use the same size sample to inoculate new wort.

it's not going to be inbev consistency (as a theoretical example - i actually think megabrewers can have horrible consistency in product), but thats the path to reaching that goal.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 14, 2022, 06:10:26 am

If I could brew the exact same beer, day in and day out, with the exact same results, I would be satisfied.

i think this could be pretty easily done. as i said above. take detailed notes. do the same ingredients, procedure hot and cold side, get a feel for the yeast. i believe you have said you are many generations down on a culture of diamond lager. start using the same processes, ie. collect yeast in the same manner, use the same size sample to inoculate new wort.

it's not going to be inbev consistency (as a theoretical example - i actually think megabrewers can have horrible consistency in product), but thats the path to reaching that goal.

My statement does not mean that I wish to brew a German Pils all the time. But it means that when a 5D is brewed, that it will taste exactly like the last 5D that was brewed. It’s a level of quality control that I strive for.

Yes, I keep notes on the beers. My recipe book dates back to 1990.

AB, Miller/Coors, Boston Beer Co., etc, have a good level of consistency in their product. Spaten, Hoffbrau, Paulaner are included. That is my goal.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: narvin on May 14, 2022, 06:57:47 am

My statement does not mean that I wish to brew a German Pils all the time. But it means that when a 5D is brewed, that it will taste exactly like the last 5D that was brewed. It’s a level of quality control that I strive for.

Yes, I keep notes on the beers. My recipe book dates back to 1990.

On a homebrew scale,  my opinion is that it's harder than you think unless you are controlling things with automation, measuring DO, measuring pH, adjusting recipe and process based on malt lot analysis, doing yeast cell counts and checking for vitality, and taking other measures that are common in commercial brewing
 The ingredients we get, especially hops, also vary a lot more than what large brewers get unless you buy large quantities of the same crop and use them fast.

That being said, it's absolutely not out of reach to make homebrew without flaws for every batch.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 14, 2022, 08:10:16 am

My statement does not mean that I wish to brew a German Pils all the time. But it means that when a 5D is brewed, that it will taste exactly like the last 5D that was brewed. It’s a level of quality control that I strive for.

Yes, I keep notes on the beers. My recipe book dates back to 1990.

On a homebrew scale,  my opinion is that it's harder than you think unless you are controlling things with automation, measuring DO, measuring pH, adjusting recipe and process based on malt lot analysis, doing yeast cell counts and checking for vitality, and taking other measures that are common in commercial brewing
 The ingredients we get, especially hops, also vary a lot more than what large brewers get unless you buy large quantities of the same crop and use them fast.

That being said, it's absolutely not out of reach to make homebrew without flaws for every batch.

And we know that flawed beer can be fixed! I wonder if this applies to people too?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: fredthecat on May 14, 2022, 10:17:17 am

And we know that flawed beer can be fixed! I wonder if this applies to people too?

i seriously doubt that. as denny said, what you did was krausening (i believe so from skimming your OP). cant remember what the issue was with the beer, diacetyl right? giving it more time could have just as easily been a factor with this beer as well. that is one thing. there are a multitude of problems that are less likely to be "fixed" to varying degrees by adding active yeast, there are some that could.



Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Iliff Ave on May 14, 2022, 10:51:47 am
The biggest takeaway I’m getting here is that flawed people can possibly be fixed simply by adding more yeast.  :o
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: neuse on May 14, 2022, 12:11:06 pm
So going back to the OP, I'm thinking another potential lesson from this experience (other than fixing a flawed beer) would be learning what went wrong in the first place, and how to avoid it in the future. Did you come away with any lessons for future brews?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 14, 2022, 01:17:39 pm
So going back to the OP, I'm thinking another potential lesson from this experience (other than fixing a flawed beer) would be learning what went wrong in the first place, and how to avoid it in the future. Did you come away with any lessons for future brews?

This beer was brewed exactly the same way that all of the past beers have been brewed. My procedure is very standard, with little variation from beer to beer.

At first, I thought it might be a yeast issue, having harvested this Diamond Lager so many times that we have lost count.

Also, my recipes are very standard. The one thing that was done with the 20 gallons of 5D (German Pils) that I have not done previously is a Diacetyl rest.
Not a hint of any off flavor at all. No Diacetyl. None.

So I might incorporate a D-Rest with all of my beers going forward.

But here is the question...exactly when do you do this? At what temperature? And, for how long? Do you take gravity readings at this time?

Like they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...or yeast, in this example.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: neuse on May 14, 2022, 01:48:26 pm
Since I don't have refrigeration, I can't speak from experience. But White and Zainashef's Yeast book speaks about diacetyl rest. Near the end of fermentation hold at 65 - 68F for two days. The best time is when gravity is 2 - 5 gravity points from reaching FG. It also mentions an alternative method of raising the temperature to 68F for the last 1/3 of fermentation. The book is copyright 2010, so methods might have changed since. Anyway, food for thought.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 14, 2022, 01:59:06 pm

And we know that flawed beer can be fixed! I wonder if this applies to people too?

i seriously doubt that. as denny said, what you did was krausening (i believe so from skimming your OP). cant remember what the issue was with the beer, diacetyl right? giving it more time could have just as easily been a factor with this beer as well. that is one thing. there are a multitude of problems that are less likely to be "fixed" to varying degrees by adding active yeast, there are some that could.
Yeast will clean up VDKs. It wont clean up phenolics, or other contamination ptoducts.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: denny on May 14, 2022, 02:30:31 pm
So going back to the OP, I'm thinking another potential lesson from this experience (other than fixing a flawed beer) would be learning what went wrong in the first place, and how to avoid it in the future. Did you come away with any lessons for future brews?

This beer was brewed exactly the same way that all of the past beers have been brewed. My procedure is very standard, with little variation from beer to beer.

At first, I thought it might be a yeast issue, having harvested this Diamond Lager so many times that we have lost count.

Also, my recipes are very standard. The one thing that was done with the 20 gallons of 5D (German Pils) that I have not done previously is a Diacetyl rest.
Not a hint of any off flavor at all. No Diacetyl. None.

So I might incorporate a D-Rest with all of my beers going forward.

But here is the question...exactly when do you do this? At what temperature? And, for how long? Do you take gravity readings at this time?

Like they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...or yeast, in this example.

I only do a d rest at most 10% of the time.  To avoid it, pitch plenty of healthy yeast and give it time to work. You need to understand why a d rest is done.  The whole purpose is to make the yeast more active, which is why my "pitch a lot and give it time" works most of the time. So, exact temp doesn't matter.  All you're doing is raising the temp to get the yeast working again.  You also need fermentables for the yeast to work on for the diacetyl consumption, so you want to do it before fermentation has reached FG. Usually 3 days is plenty long enough for it.  But again, undersatnding why you're doing it and what happens is the key to knowing how to do i
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on May 14, 2022, 09:29:17 pm
It’s quite possible this diacetyl problem was caused from stressed yeast. You made the comment before that you don’t aerate your beers. Proper oxygen levels can reduce VDK by helping the health of the yeast. Consistency starts with making sure the conditions are right to achieve your objective.

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 15, 2022, 06:21:30 am
It’s quite possible this diacetyl problem was caused from stressed yeast. You made the comment before that you don’t aerate your beers. Proper oxygen levels can reduce VDK by helping the health of the yeast. Consistency starts with making sure the conditions are right to achieve your objective.

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.

The wort picks up oxygen as it runs out of the boil kettle.
And, our yeast is highly oxygenated prior to pitching. So much so that it will actually erupt at times, much like a volcano.

A 10 gallon split batch is in the works now, two different yeasts. Diamond (harvested many generations) and a new W-2124. Very anxious to get the results on these two.

I wondered if I rushed this particular beer. Brewed on 3-23-22, transferred to the keg on 4-5-22. OG = 1.050, FG = 1.012.
The yeast that was pitched to "fix" the beer was the same yeast that was harvested from it.
Title: From Worst To First!
Post by: BrewBama on May 15, 2022, 07:22:55 am

Like I mentioned before, the only people who debate whether proper aeration is important to yeast health and quality beer are homebrewers.

This is a great point.  Commercial practices are quickly brought into question by homebrewers especially on this forum. I recently posted a question based on aeration that was dismissed as a commercial practice not required at home.

I’m not saying every commercial practice applies but before dismissing a practice as not required on the HomeBrew level I *wish* research sources with empirical data could be offered as a basis for the claim despite the numerous resources on the commercial level supporting it.

So often it’s anecdotally dismissed based on little more evidence than ‘I’ve been brewing since Eisenhower was a Corporal and I can’t tell a difference so it must not matter.’
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: denny on May 15, 2022, 08:26:32 am
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 15, 2022, 08:34:50 am
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on May 15, 2022, 08:53:07 am
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: tommymorris on May 15, 2022, 09:11:26 am
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 15, 2022, 10:43:43 am
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.

This is a one-off bad batch. I cannot completely rule out lack of oxygen as a contributor, but it is doubtful. We always over pitch, 1 quart of fresh healthy slurry per 5 gallons. The yeast will actually bubble out of the gallon jug, and run down the kitchen cabinets...ask me how I know! So it is very fresh, healthy yeast.

I am still shocked that this particular beer turned out so well, after the fix was in. If I could repeat this, I would do it in a heartbeat.

If you had a lager that was basically close to finished with the ferment, and krausened it, would good things happen?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: denny on May 15, 2022, 11:17:23 am
You have a common problem caused by low wort oxygen at pitch and yet you are convinced it’s not low oxygen. You say the yeast is highly aerated because it is frothy, not sure what that means. The most you can get into solution with your methods is 7 ppm.

Lagers require a great deal of oxygen in the wort at pitch, 12-15ppm. It seems to me you you are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I brew mostly lagers and have won for them locally, regionally and nationally. Oxygen at pitch and high pitch rates are critical to winning and for that matter a decent beer.
As far as I know he only had the problem once. It’s not systematic to his brewery. I’m speaking for him, but it seems to me he m created this thread to celebrate a success being a bad beer back to good. I don’t think he necessarily needs to change his brewing methods based on one batch among many.

This is a one-off bad batch. I cannot completely rule out lack of oxygen as a contributor, but it is doubtful. We always over pitch, 1 quart of fresh healthy slurry per 5 gallons. The yeast will actually bubble out of the gallon jug, and run down the kitchen cabinets...ask me how I know! So it is very fresh, healthy yeast.

I am still shocked that this particular beer turned out so well, after the fix was in. If I could repeat this, I would do it in a heartbeat.

If you had a lager that was basically close to finished with the ferment, and krausened it, would good things happen?

Not necessarily. Think about it....there must be a reason that is not a usual process.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Richard on May 15, 2022, 11:43:14 am
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.
Title: From Worst To First!
Post by: BrewBama on May 15, 2022, 12:27:47 pm
…a high flow of oxygen is wasteful … inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. …

Good information
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on May 15, 2022, 12:28:58 pm
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.

I think we did this, once or twice. There was no noticeable improvement in the beer, as I recall.
We have a diffuser, so the bubbles were tiny, micro-bubbles. We never did this again after my initial post on this forum about the procedure.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: MDL on May 15, 2022, 12:48:17 pm
Just to clarify things I have always thought of krausening as the practice of adding actively fermenting wort to a batch that is nearly at terminal gravity. Typically on the way to the lagering tank or in the case of Weiss beer to carbonate in the bottle.

This is a very common practice in German breweries that don’t spund or ferment lagers in open fermenters. The benefits are numerous and it is a key process step in lager brewing.

Again, this is as I understand it.
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: neuse on May 15, 2022, 03:15:20 pm
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.

I think we did this, once or twice. There was no noticeable improvement in the beer, as I recall.
We have a diffuser, so the bubbles were tiny, micro-bubbles. We never did this again after my initial post on this forum about the procedure.
From reading the forums and White and Zainashef's Yeast book, I was under the impression that the tiny microbubble method was the accepted methos of oxygenating wort (no specifics - just my impression from all the sources) was the accepted method for oxygenation of the wort. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: From Worst To First!
Post by: Richard on May 15, 2022, 07:49:50 pm
All I need is to prove it to myself.  That's what I believe everyone should do. Then do what works for you. When I write about my practices, I expressing what I do, not necessarily trying to encourage anyone to do the same.

I agree. Many of our brewing idiosyncrasies have been shared here. Not to encourage others, just showing what has worked (and not worked) for us. I know that folks laugh at some of the things we do. That is Ok. I enjoy a good laugh!

It was on this forum we were advised that adding oxygen by bubbling it into wort is a total waste. The O2 goes in as small bubbles, and then rapidly rises to the surface simply being expelled into the atmosphere. Very little if any oxygen gets absorbed in the wort. At least that is what I was told, and it makes sense to me.

I don't think that last part is quite true. I remember you saying that you "blasted" the wort with oxygen for x minutes. I pointed out that a high flow of oxygen is wasteful and that you should inject the oxygen slowly so that it forms small bubbles that can barely be seen at the surface. I didn't say that any oxygen injection is a total waste, just that it can be inefficient if done aggressively.

I think we did this, once or twice. There was no noticeable improvement in the beer, as I recall.
We have a diffuser, so the bubbles were tiny, micro-bubbles. We never did this again after my initial post on this forum about the procedure.
From reading the forums and White and Zainashef's Yeast book, I was under the impression that the tiny microbubble method was the accepted methos of oxygenating wort (no specifics - just my impression from all the sources) was the accepted method for oxygenation of the wort. Am I missing something?
I don't think you are missing anything. The microbubble method is what is being described as desirable.