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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: trapae on May 14, 2022, 08:32:30 pm

Title: Marzen water profile?
Post by: trapae on May 14, 2022, 08:32:30 pm
Just recently installed a RO Water system and excited to use it for Brewing.  My next brew is a Marzen and was wondering opinions on the best water profile. I have done searches and looked at profiles but just wondering with the crew here thinks. Also is there any place for caramunich in a Marzen? I was originally going to put 8 ounces in my recipe but then read that many think it would make a Marzen too sweet? Thanks
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: M-O-O-N That spells beer! on May 14, 2022, 09:01:06 pm
I use 9.4% Caramunich

Water profile is:
Calcium 50
Magnesium 0
Sodium 0
Sulfate 32
Chloride 64
Distilled water

Scored 45/50 and 41/50 at an AHA sanctioned competition

I use all of the brewing salts in the mash, none in the sparge.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: trapae on May 14, 2022, 10:12:42 pm
So your sparge is 100% RO water?
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: M-O-O-N That spells beer! on May 15, 2022, 04:35:52 am
I use distilled water but yes, my sparge does not have any salts, just the mash water.
Title: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 15, 2022, 05:52:38 am
Recipe.There used to be a German Beer forum but it imploded with Low O2. We won’t go into that. …but before it imploded there was a prolific poster there, Techbrau, who listed typicle German Beer recipes. Here is the entry for Märzen:

Marzen - OG 13.5 Plato
30-50% Munich malt at 15 EBC (aka Weyermann Munich I)
30-50% Pilsner malt at 3.5 EBC
0-30% Vienna malt at 8 EBC
0-10% caramalt at 25 to 120 EBC (aka Weyermann Carahell to Caramunich 2, or a blend)
20-26 IBUs

Water Adjustment. Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.

I’ve found it’s easy to overadjust water, so I try to mess with it as little as possible. I focus on mash pH and which salt(s) gives me 50-100 ppm Ca as a co-factor for the amylase enzymes and to help protect α-amylase at normal mashing temperatures without exceeding 100 ppm chloride. Generally, German and Czech styles get CaCl, British styles get gypsum, and American styles get a combination CaCl + gypsum.

When I would sparge I also did not add salts to sparge liquor. I only added salts to strike liquor. However, if the mineral profile is an important part of the style profile (e.g., Dortmunder export), then the sparge water could have the same mineral profile as the strike water.

I also add 1 tsp (~3-4 grams) Ascorbic Acid as a stabilizer.

I add adjustments direct to grain prior to adding to MLT prior adding brewhaus liquor.

Water Source. RO is great source water. Well water, if stable, is also great water. I use distilled water. Municipality sourced water can change throughout the year, and the water profile can change considerably from season to season. If using muni water and you don’t analyze your water every time you brew, you are making an approximation of your water profile.  I don’t recommend analyzing water every brewday but with RO I would check TDS each brewday.

A smart man once wrote in reference to muni water: “If you are using a spreadsheet to calculate salt additions to the third decimal point you are confusing precision with accuracy. Your result will be unknown, so all that extra effort is for naught. You don’t have to focus on precision with your measurements if you don’t know precisely what you started with.” By using distilled water I know that I am starting from zero every brewday.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: erockrph on May 15, 2022, 07:21:59 pm
For Märzens, I keep the salt additions to a bare minimum. My flavor ions end up in the 30-80ppm range, which is almost negligible.

As far as Caramunich goes, I don't think 10% would be too sweet per se, but it might become more dominant in the flavor profile than I'd like. I usually use 5-7% of CaraMunich II or Aromatic, with the rest being a 2:2:1 blend of Light Munich:Pilsner:Vienna
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: Cliffs on May 18, 2022, 09:40:31 am
No comment on the caramunich, as I havent used it in years, but keep the water soft, enough cacl and caso4 to get to about 30ppm calcium. adjust PH to get a mash ph around 5.2-5.4.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: fredthecat on May 18, 2022, 09:45:12 am
 a lot of very nice info from you guys. excellent.

@brewbama - ok, i was just reading about 0.5g-1g ascorbic acid recommended to be added to a session mead before packaging today.

do you add it to all your beers? or all pale ones?
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 18, 2022, 10:34:46 am
I’ve been adding it to all my beers.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: narvin on May 18, 2022, 01:06:31 pm
I’ve been adding it to all my beers.

Do you add any sulfites as well?  The thinking behind the trifecta combination is that AA by itself can be an oxidizing agent. 
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 18, 2022, 03:42:26 pm
I use BtB and AA. …so, more of an exacta than trifecta. I suck at metabisulfate. I’ve brewed more than one dumper with it so I removed it from my brewery. I’ve had no oxidation issues (yet).
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: mabrungard on May 19, 2022, 11:49:24 am

Water Adjustment. Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.



A smart man once wrote in reference to muni water: “If you are using a spreadsheet to calculate salt additions to the third decimal point you are confusing precision with accuracy. Your result will be unknown, so all that extra effort is for naught. You don’t have to focus on precision with your measurements if you don’t know precisely what you started with.” By using distilled water I know that I am starting from zero every brewday.

Ah, another mention that Noble hops can't be paired with any sulfate.  Thankfully, that's 100% BS.  There are plenty of examples of malty beers being brewed with some sulfate in their water.  One of the biggest users of Noble hops is PU in their pilsner and they definitely do use gypsum in amending their low TDS water source. 

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  Sulfate is okay in a malty beer in order to dry the beer's finish.  If you have a beer that presents too long and malty of a finish, do try a very small pinch of gypsum in a pint of the beer to assess the drying effect. 

I do agree that brewers need to consider mineral additions and brewing software as approximate tools.  There are hundreds of variables at work in formulating, brewing, and fermenting a beer.  Don't assume that you can calculate down to the gnat's ass in formulating your beers!

If the OP for this thread is taking his mashing water to those concentrations and diluting them down with a pure RO sparging addition, I concur that it's an effective method of getting the advantages of higher calcium in the mash tun and the subsequent advantages of low calcium in the finished wort.  That's a good way to produce a malty lager. 
 

Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: trapae on May 19, 2022, 08:22:56 pm
Thanks everyone.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: Cliffs on May 20, 2022, 09:02:07 am

Water Adjustment. Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.



A smart man once wrote in reference to muni water: “If you are using a spreadsheet to calculate salt additions to the third decimal point you are confusing precision with accuracy. Your result will be unknown, so all that extra effort is for naught. You don’t have to focus on precision with your measurements if you don’t know precisely what you started with.” By using distilled water I know that I am starting from zero every brewday.

Ah, another mention that Noble hops can't be paired with any sulfate.  Thankfully, that's 100% BS.  There are plenty of examples of malty beers being brewed with some sulfate in their water.  One of the biggest users of Noble hops is PU in their pilsner and they definitely do use gypsum in amending their low TDS water source. 

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  Sulfate is okay in a malty beer in order to dry the beer's finish.  If you have a beer that presents too long and malty of a finish, do try a very small pinch of gypsum in a pint of the beer to assess the drying effect. 

I do agree that brewers need to consider mineral additions and brewing software as approximate tools.  There are hundreds of variables at work in formulating, brewing, and fermenting a beer.  Don't assume that you can calculate down to the gnat's ass in formulating your beers!

If the OP for this thread is taking his mashing water to those concentrations and diluting them down with a pure RO sparging addition, I concur that it's an effective method of getting the advantages of higher calcium in the mash tun and the subsequent advantages of low calcium in the finished wort.  That's a good way to produce a malty lager.

Am I reading this correctly, Pilsner Urquell adds sulfates to their water??
Title: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 24, 2022, 01:45:25 pm

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  …

So now we have two men’s opinions unsupported by facts.

I recommend trying both to see what works best.  As I said I use only CaCl in Märzen and like the results. So… I guess three opinions.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: narvin on May 24, 2022, 03:52:34 pm

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  …

So now we have two men’s opinions unsupported by facts.

I recommend trying both to see what works best.  As I said I use only CaCl in Märzen and like the results. So… I guess three opinions.

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: erockrph on May 24, 2022, 07:00:36 pm

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  …

So now we have two men’s opinions unsupported by facts.

I recommend trying both to see what works best.  As I said I use only CaCl in Märzen and like the results. So… I guess three opinions.

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.
Not to steer too far off course, but if Sulfate + Noble Hops didn't work, then German Pils wouldn't be a style
Title: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 24, 2022, 08:05:54 pm

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.

By saying “Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.” does not mean all beers with nobles hops can’t use sulfates as a rule. It means I don’t use sulfates in malty styles with nobles hops. I use CaCl in malty styles with nobles hops.


Not to steer too far off course, but if Sulfate + Noble Hops didn't work, then German Pils wouldn't be a style

I don’t consider Pils a malty style. Just me I guess.

To be clear: I did not say “Noble hops can't be paired with any sulfate.” So…
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: fredthecat on May 24, 2022, 08:20:41 pm

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.

By saying “Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.” does not mean all beers with nobles hops can’t use sulfates as a rule. It means I don’t use sulfates in malty styles with nobles hops. I use CaCl in malty styles with nobles hops.


Not to steer too far off course, but if Sulfate + Noble Hops didn't work, then German Pils wouldn't be a style

I don’t consider Pils a malty style. Just me I guess.

To be clear: I did not say “Noble hops can't be paired with any sulfate.” So…

just so brewbama is aware, i saw the original reply, re-read your post and did not take away from your post that you claimed noble hops cant be used with sulfate. i trust your perception that you choose to go with just CaCL in a few beers, and its another thing im happy to think over.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: narvin on May 25, 2022, 05:18:57 am

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.

By saying “Since Märzen is a malty beer that uses noble hops, I only use CaCl in it.” does not mean all beers with nobles hops can’t use sulfates as a rule. It means I don’t use sulfates in malty styles with nobles hops. I use CaCl in malty styles with nobles hops.


Not to steer too far off course, but if Sulfate + Noble Hops didn't work, then German Pils wouldn't be a style

I don’t consider Pils a malty style. Just me I guess.

To be clear: I did not say “Noble hops can't be paired with any sulfate.” So…

True, I think Martin was disputing a rule that wasn't explicitly stated here.   It may have been implied in the recipe:

Quote
Generally, German and Czech styles get CaCl, British styles get gypsum, and American styles get a combination CaCl + gypsum.
Title: Marzen water profile?
Post by: BrewBama on May 25, 2022, 07:46:07 am
Could be .  Generally, that’s what I do. …with exceptions.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: denny on May 25, 2022, 08:31:58 am

The Noble hop/Sulfate lore is ONE MAN'S OPINION and its not factual nor supported.  I apologize for not having enough data to refute that mention in the Water Book when we were editing it.  I just went along with it at the time.  …

So now we have two men’s opinions unsupported by facts.

I recommend trying both to see what works best.  As I said I use only CaCl in Märzen and like the results. So… I guess three opinions.

To be fair, I think saying that you cannot use noble hops with water that contains sulfate as a rule demands a higher burden of proof.  By all means, try it and see what you like.
Not to steer too far off course, but if Sulfate + Noble Hops didn't work, then German Pils wouldn't be a style

I came to say just that.
Title: Re: Marzen water profile?
Post by: lupulus on May 27, 2022, 06:37:15 am
In case it's not obvious, Narziss book has advice for all German beer styles in recipe, bitterness, dH water profile, and mashing profile.

It's in German of course, but with Google translate and a bit of effort you have a book you can refer to for the rest of your life.

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