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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: jmulcare on June 02, 2022, 12:59:00 pm

Title: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: jmulcare on June 02, 2022, 12:59:00 pm
Is anyone having difficulty getting their entries delivered for the competition by Fedex Ground?  I have a friend in NY that sent his in 10 days ago and they haven't been delivered yet.  As.of today, they've gotten as far as the station in Broomfield, CO, about 7 miles from the destination.  Fedex Ground has been no help.  He has one more day before the deadline.  Btw, I'm retired Fedex Express and this is really ticking me off🤬🤬🤬
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bob357 on June 02, 2022, 03:52:55 pm
I've had nothing but trouble with FedEx deliveries for the last couple of years. Almost always a delay of one sort or another and without any explanation. Actually, had a package from Yakima, WA that was routed to Memphis, TN before heading back west to Fallon, NV, about an hour East of Reno. Took 6 days. Normally, this same package would arrive within 24 hours of shipping.

In all fairness, I'll relate a positive experience: I received a package that left Redding, Ca. at 7:42PM on 6/6, was reported as arriving and departing facilities in Sacramento, Ca. and Sparks Nv. and being delivered to my door in Fallon, Nv. at 4:57 PM yesterday, 6/7.

Unfortunately, another package that left Memphis Tn. at 11:38 PM on 6/3 and arrived in Tracy, Ca. at 9:21 PM on 6/5, is now in Stockton, Ca., about 22 miles closer in nearly 3 days? WTF is wrong here? This is more what I'm used to with FedEx.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: denny on June 02, 2022, 04:08:06 pm
I've had nothing but trouble with FedEx deliveries for the last couple of years. Almost always a delay of one sort or another and without any explanation. Actually, had a package from Yakima, WA that was routed to Memphis, TN before heading back west to Fallon, NV, about an hour East of Reno. Took 6 days. Normally, this same package would arrive within 24 hours of shipping.

AFAIK, they route everything through Memphis.  FWIW, the last 3 FedEx I've gotten have all come a day before they estimated.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 02, 2022, 05:16:47 pm
Over the last 12 months, FedEx has really gone downhill in their service reliability. While my beer entries made it just fine (pays to ship Over-Night-Express), a number of other packages have been delayed for more than a day or two.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: jmulcare on June 02, 2022, 06:18:33 pm
Over the last 12 months, FedEx has really gone downhill in their service reliability. While my beer entries made it just fine (pays to ship Over-Night-Express), a number of other packages have been delayed for more than a day or two.

I've been out of the job about 6 years and the people I worked with tell me the same thing...it really disapoints me
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 03, 2022, 04:21:33 am
I've had nothing but trouble with FedEx deliveries for the last couple of years. Almost always a delay of one sort or another and without any explanation. Actually, had a package from Yakima, WA that was routed to Memphis, TN before heading back west to Fallon, NV, about an hour East of Reno. Took 6 days. Normally, this same package would arrive within 24 hours of shipping.

AFAIK, they route everything through Memphis.  FWIW, the last 3 FedEx I've gotten have all come a day before they estimated.



Not every package shipped through FedEx Express goes through Memphis (Super Hub), but the majority of them do. In addition to the Super Hub, FedEx Express has 11 other airport-based hubs that process overnight packages.

The FedEx Express hubs located in the United States include Miami, Dallas, Indianapolis and Oakland, California. Hubs are also located in other parts of the world, including Japan and Canada.

About 4 million express packages are processed each night through its entire global distribution system.

My worst experience was when shipping a check via 2nd Day Air. It was destined for Ohio, but spent at least 2 full days in Pennsylvania. FedEx tracking has been unreliable lately also.

Glad my beer entries made it!
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Steve Ruch on June 05, 2022, 08:58:34 am
Last Wednesday I placed two orders, one from Michigan was shipped the same day and arrived Friday, the other was shipped from Pennsylvania on Thursday and arrived Saturday. To Indiana.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: jmulcare on June 06, 2022, 04:37:45 pm
Well, the latest update on my friend's NHC entry is that it being held for PICK UP at the station in Broomfield.  He was finally able to talk to someone that was actually in the station and they said that because it has beer in it, they can't deliver it, which is a lie.  Fedex and UPS deliver packages with alcohol every day.  She couldn't tell him if there was a leak only that they could not deliver, it has to be picked up.  Someone at the BA told him that they've picked up entry packages before, so it sounds like they are aware that this is an issue.  This could eventually the end of the competition if brewers aren't able to send in their entries, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 06, 2022, 05:27:38 pm
Well, the latest update on my friend's NHC entry is that it being held for PICK UP at the station in Broomfield.  He was finally able to talk to someone that was actually in the station and they said that because it has beer in it, they can't deliver it, which is a lie.  Fedex and UPS deliver packages with alcohol every day.  She couldn't tell him if there was a leak only that they could not deliver, it has to be picked up.  Someone at the BA told him that they've picked up entry packages before, so it sounds like they are aware that this is an issue.  This could eventually the end of the competition if brewers aren't able to send in their entries, in my opinion.

Unless your friend (or you) have a shipper's account with FedEx, and have an alcohol distribution license, they cannot legally accept the shipment, or deliver the shipment.

Yes, we all pay no attention and ship anyway. It's a roll of the dice.

So your friend's entry is SOL.


Who can ship alcohol and to whom?

Overview

Only FedEx-approved, licensed alcohol shippers that have entered into a FedEx Alcohol Shipping Agreement may ship alcohol via FedEx services. Consumers may not ship alcohol of any type via FedEx services.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: mchrispen on June 07, 2022, 11:13:02 am
This is not a legality, rather a self imposed rule by both UPS and Fedex, likely for liability sake.

It is only technically illegal to ship alcohol though USPS, and that may change soon.

That said, home brewers always ship at their own risk.


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Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: narvin on June 07, 2022, 11:33:11 am
I'm sure it varies based on your locality, but I have had nothing but bad experiences with FedEx in Maryland for 15 years.  Haven't shipped beer through them since they broke my bottles and sent the rest back, but the deliveries I get they sometimes throw down my driveway or leave up the street by the road, or consistently deliver other people's packages to me and then expect me to go drop them off.  Or drive all over my lawn. 
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 07, 2022, 11:46:20 am
For the longest time I used a local gift shop service that was participating in a "Wine of the Month" program, so it was a registered alcohol shipper.  Unfortunately, the business did not find it lucrative enough and dropped that part of business.  Now I only enter local competitions, though I notice that both FED EX and UPS are used frequently for out of state participants.  I am told that the way to go is to have self-printed shipping labels, etc... and just drop off the box - usually no questions asked.  Good packaging helps the intact delivery immensely, though it often creates a greater pain at the competition sorting room.

I hope USPS comes around on this issue, eventually. 
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Richard on June 07, 2022, 02:31:28 pm
I use these trays for shipping bottles:
https://www.amazon.com/Crafty-Shipping-12oz-Bottle-Trays/dp/B0796GH6GK/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=beer+shipping+box&qid=1654633694&sr=8-4

I can fit 2 or 4 nicely in a cardboard box with a little bubble wrap to take up the extra space. Never had a problem shipping my "pickles" via UPS with a self-printed and prepaid label. I just drop them on the counter at the UPS store.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 07, 2022, 03:54:57 pm
The way it reads, you must be a licensed beer distributor or retailer to legally ship beer.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/beer.page
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Slowbrew on June 08, 2022, 05:08:41 am
My understanding of the shipping limitations is that the rules are to protect the states tax provisions on import and export of alcohol.  If something is inconvenient it is usually related to a tax issue.  Add in state laws on where homebrew can be transported which vary from state to state and I can understand shippers not wanting to step into that pool.

IMHO

Paul
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: denny on June 08, 2022, 08:15:46 am
The way it reads, you must be a licensed beer distributor or retailer to legally ship beer.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/beer.page

Reads to me like it's against their policy, but not illegal.   UPS is not a lawmaking body.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Richard on June 08, 2022, 08:38:20 am
The way it reads, you must be a licensed beer distributor or retailer to legally ship beer.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/beer.page

Reads to me like it's against their policy, but not illegal.   UPS is not a lawmaking body.
I agree with this reading.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 08, 2022, 03:18:19 pm
The way it reads, you must be a licensed beer distributor or retailer to legally ship beer.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/beer.page

Reads to me like it's against their policy, but not illegal.   UPS is not a lawmaking body.
I agree with this reading.

Neither is the CDC a lawmaking body, for instance.

Not so fast, my beer drinking friends. Of course you know there are multiple state laws that apply here. From what is printed, only licensed alcohol retailers can legally ship beer / wine via FedEx / UPS.

If you thought brewing beer was tough, just try figuring out how to ship it. Whenever it comes to alcohol, the law is especially strict. Every facet of the industry is closely regulated affecting all parties involved, from the manufacturers to the marketers to the men and women who distribute it.

And in some cases, the laws can vary from one county to another within the same state. Because of this, the major players in the shipping space (think: FedEx, UPS, USPS) are very specific about outlining their own policies and who they choose to work with.


2021Shipping alcohol is illegal unless you have the proper permits and licensing that allows you to distribute alcohol. This is thanks to federal regulations that were put in place after the 21st amendment [6].

Bottom line...you and I cannot legally ship beer. Period.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: denny on June 08, 2022, 04:25:43 pm
The way it reads, you must be a licensed beer distributor or retailer to legally ship beer.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/prohibited-items/beer.page

Reads to me like it's against their policy, but not illegal.   UPS is not a lawmaking body.
I agree with this reading.

Neither is the CDC a lawmaking body, for instance.

Not so fast, my beer drinking friends. Of course you know there are multiple state laws that apply here. From what is printed, only licensed alcohol retailers can legally ship beer / wine via FedEx / UPS.

If you thought brewing beer was tough, just try figuring out how to ship it. Whenever it comes to alcohol, the law is especially strict. Every facet of the industry is closely regulated affecting all parties involved, from the manufacturers to the marketers to the men and women who distribute it.

And in some cases, the laws can vary from one county to another within the same state. Because of this, the major players in the shipping space (think: FedEx, UPS, USPS) are very specific about outlining their own policies and who they choose to work with.


2021Shipping alcohol is illegal unless you have the proper permits and licensing that allows you to distribute alcohol. This is thanks to federal regulations that were put in place after the 21st amendment [6].

Bottom line...you and I cannot legally ship beer. Period.

What is that you're quoting?

https://beerandbrewing.com/the-day-homebrewing-was-legalized/ - It’s against the law in all states to use the U.S. Postal Service to send beer. UPS and FedEx allow you to send it as long as you have a special permit to do so

Which means it's against their policy, but not illegal to ship homebrew. I would bet that what you posted pertains to commercial beer.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 08, 2022, 05:26:50 pm
Is it legal to ship beer in the US?

The short and direct answer would be “No” unless you have the proper license and paperwork to do it. Shipping any alcoholic beverage is against the policies of most shipping companies—all kind of liquid products on glass bottles; it is considered dangerous for shipping.

From: Home Brew Academy
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: narvin on June 08, 2022, 05:49:26 pm
Is it legal to ship beer in the US?

The short and direct answer would be “No” unless you have the proper license and paperwork to do it. Shipping any alcoholic beverage is against the policies of most shipping companies—all kind of liquid products on glass bottles; it is considered dangerous for shipping.

From: Home Brew Academy

If there is not a law against it, it is not illegal.    It's illegal to ship alcohol via USPS.  Shipping it via FedEx is against their policy, but afaik no more illegal than a private person giving homebrew to another private party for free in their own car.  A brewery selling and shipping interstate without a license is another matter entirely.  As has been mentioned, that is a tax issue.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 08, 2022, 06:11:26 pm
Is it legal to ship beer in the US?

The short and direct answer would be “No” unless you have the proper license and paperwork to do it. Shipping any alcoholic beverage is against the policies of most shipping companies—all kind of liquid products on glass bottles; it is considered dangerous for shipping.

From: Home Brew Academy

If there is not a law against it, it is not illegal.    It's illegal to ship alcohol via USPS.  Shipping it via FedEx is against their policy, but afaik no more illegal than a private person giving homebrew to another private party for free in their own car.  A brewery selling and shipping interstate without a license is another matter entirely.  As has been mentioned, that is a tax issue.

Yes, it's legal to ship beer. It happens everyday.

But to do so legally, you must be properly licensed. And have the proper shipper's accounts with FedEx / UPS.

What are the consequences for someone (you or me) shipping beer, and then getting busted? Is there a fine involved? Does the federal or state government care about this?

And why does FedEx / UPS make such a big stink about it? If it's not illegal, why do they not allow consumers (you and me) to ship beer? It would be a good revenue source for them, and we know they would welcome that.

And it's not just a simple "open an account" with them. You must be properly licensed by the authorities.

If you get busted for shipping liquids / alcohol / beer, etc. on FedEx, in violation of their company policy, can they file legal charges against you?

And this…

Today 3/18 I get a letter in the mail from the Pennsylvania state police bureau of liquor control enforcement. Letter basically says the department has conducted a criminal investigation regarding direct shipment of malt beverages to PA. There’s a number for a licensing bureau that I can contact if I want to become licensed. Clearly I’m not licensed to ship alcohol so the last paragraph reads failure to comply with PA law could subject you to criminal enforcement action taken by the state police. There’s a number that says please contact to discuss in further detail.

The above taken from another beer forum.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: deckerhand on June 09, 2022, 08:40:12 am
Does he have a tracking number.  I know all issues now have to be dealt with online. I lost faith in my local usps for lost package and they wouldn’t refund me I really like ups tho


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Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: narvin on June 09, 2022, 08:42:27 am
Is it legal to ship beer in the US?

The short and direct answer would be “No” unless you have the proper license and paperwork to do it. Shipping any alcoholic beverage is against the policies of most shipping companies—all kind of liquid products on glass bottles; it is considered dangerous for shipping.

From: Home Brew Academy

If there is not a law against it, it is not illegal.    It's illegal to ship alcohol via USPS.  Shipping it via FedEx is against their policy, but afaik no more illegal than a private person giving homebrew to another private party for free in their own car.  A brewery selling and shipping interstate without a license is another matter entirely.  As has been mentioned, that is a tax issue.

Yes, it's legal to ship beer. It happens everyday.

But to do so legally, you must be properly licensed. And have the proper shipper's accounts with FedEx / UPS.

What are the consequences for someone (you or me) shipping beer, and then getting busted? Is there a fine involved? Does the federal or state government care about this?

And why does FedEx / UPS make such a big stink about it? If it's not illegal, why do they not allow consumers (you and me) to ship beer? It would be a good revenue source for them, and we know they would welcome that.

And it's not just a simple "open an account" with them. You must be properly licensed by the authorities.

If you get busted for shipping liquids / alcohol / beer, etc. on FedEx, in violation of their company policy, can they file legal charges against you?

And this…

Today 3/18 I get a letter in the mail from the Pennsylvania state police bureau of liquor control enforcement. Letter basically says the department has conducted a criminal investigation regarding direct shipment of malt beverages to PA. There’s a number for a licensing bureau that I can contact if I want to become licensed. Clearly I’m not licensed to ship alcohol so the last paragraph reads failure to comply with PA law could subject you to criminal enforcement action taken by the state police. There’s a number that says please contact to discuss in further detail.

The above taken from another beer forum.

1) State laws vary in both design and enforcement.  There are also laws, state and federal, about a business shipping alcohol for sale.  To "File charges", Fedex would have to specify which law you are breaking.  If you are doing it in high volume, they could easily attempt to argue that you are not a private party sending personal items.  They could also sue you in civil court, which is not a matter of legality, but of damages to them for not following their terms of services.

2) https://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/direct-shipment-of-alcohol-state-statutes.aspx

These apply to alcohol manufacturers.  Since homebrewers are not licensed, are not engaged in commerce, and are treated separately under federal law, these do not apply to a person any more than beer tax laws apply to giving a bottle of homebrew as a gift.  I've yet to see a specific law that applies to shipping alcohol when it isn't related to commerce.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Barbarian Brewer on June 18, 2022, 02:11:26 pm
 The real reason shipping companies like FedEx and UPS do not ship alcohol is that they don't want to face federal charges for picking up from, or
 delivering to, the wrong people.  UPS in 2013 and FedEx in 2014 faced federal charges for delivering drugs from sketchy online pharmacies that sent out drugs to customers who did not have valid prescriptions.  UPS caved and paid a $40 million fine.  FedEx fought the charges, and in 2016, won!  FedEx argued that it, unlike the Justice Department, was not a law enforcement agency.  They did not have the ability or authority to investigate and determine whether there was a valid prescription or not. FedEx asked the Justice Department for a list of online pharmacies they should not pick up from or a list of destinations they should not deliver to.  The Justice Department refused and then sued FedEx anyway.   This is one of the articles that describes the FedEx fight: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29)

So, you can see why FedEx policy is to only ship alcohol from approved shippers. 
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 18, 2022, 04:13:54 pm
The real reason shipping companies like FedEx and UPS do not ship alcohol is that they don't want to face federal charges for picking up from, or
 delivering to, the wrong people.  UPS in 2013 and FedEx in 2014 faced federal charges for delivering drugs from sketchy online pharmacies that sent out drugs to customers who did not have valid prescriptions.  UPS caved and paid a $40 million fine.  FedEx fought the charges, and in 2016, won!  FedEx argued that it, unlike the Justice Department, was not a law enforcement agency.  They did not have the ability or authority to investigate and determine whether there was a valid prescription or not. FedEx asked the Justice Department for a list of online pharmacies they should not pick up from or a list of destinations they should not deliver to.  The Justice Department refused and then sued FedEx anyway.   This is one of the articles that describes the FedEx fight: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29)

So, you can see why FedEx policy is to only ship alcohol from approved shippers.

That makes sense. And makes it easily understood why we can’t ship beer without being “approved”.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: joeinma on June 23, 2022, 09:15:13 am
Friend of mine had a big argument with UPS when they denied his insurance claim on the package of beer that broke that he shipped to the comp.  They said it was "illegal because it was beer"...he won though, because he said that their posted rules state that alcohol cannot be shipped, but it says nothing about non-alcoholic beverages.  He told them to prove that it was an alcoholic beverage and they could not, so the claim was paid.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: Drewch on June 23, 2022, 11:37:49 am
The real reason shipping companies like FedEx and UPS do not ship alcohol is that they don't want to face federal charges for picking up from, or
 delivering to, the wrong people.  UPS in 2013 and FedEx in 2014 faced federal charges for delivering drugs from sketchy online pharmacies that sent out drugs to customers who did not have valid prescriptions.  UPS caved and paid a $40 million fine.  FedEx fought the charges, and in 2016, won!  FedEx argued that it, unlike the Justice Department, was not a law enforcement agency.  They did not have the ability or authority to investigate and determine whether there was a valid prescription or not. FedEx asked the Justice Department for a list of online pharmacies they should not pick up from or a list of destinations they should not deliver to.  The Justice Department refused and then sued FedEx anyway.   This is one of the articles that describes the FedEx fight: https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/06/29/fedex-not-just-delivering-packages-but-beating-arrogant-federal-prosecutors/?sh=31f43ad07e29)

So, you can see why FedEx policy is to only ship alcohol from approved shippers.

That makes sense. And makes it easily understood why we can%u2019t ship beer without being %u201Capproved%u201D.

There's also the fact that many states make it explicitly illegal for common carriers to deliver alcohol to private residences.

It's just easier for them to avoid the whole issue and only ship B2B from licensed brewers.
Title: Re: Fedex shipping for Homebrew Competition
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 23, 2022, 12:24:16 pm
A private company's rules are not laws but that doesn't mean the rules are not based upon their attempts to comply with laws or avoid liability for inadvertently violating a law.

One of the issues here is that every state has its own alcohol laws and regulatory body with different rules around shipping beer. In some states it is illegal to transport alcoholic beverages without proper documentation or licensing to ship in the first place. For example, in Texas the TABC decided it is illegal to transport homebrew without a bill of lading even to walk it from your house to your neighbor. The private shipping companies cannot reasonably have their clerks figure out what is legal in every state a box might travel depending upon what kind of licensing you have and what is in the box.