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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Richard on June 18, 2022, 06:43:02 pm

Title: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Richard on June 18, 2022, 06:43:02 pm
A few weeks ago I brewed a Vienna lager. I used Diamond lager yeast, which is supposed to drop clear, so I didn't use any gelatin or other fining agent in the fermenter. I cold crashed to below 36 F for 48 hours, transferred to a keg and immediately put that in the fridge. After a week or so I drew a sample and it was quite murky. A couple of days later it was still not clear, and I was very disappointed. The next day I added gelatin to the finished and carbonated beer, which I have never done. After 3 days it is clear. Of course it might have cleared up in that time, anyway, but it didn't seem as if that was going to happen any time soon.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: denny on June 19, 2022, 08:25:55 am
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 19, 2022, 09:36:48 am
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.

That’s my experience also. Diamond drops clear pretty fast.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Village Taphouse on June 19, 2022, 10:17:38 am
I would ordinarily add the gel solution prior to carbing.  I know that I have added it after carbing and anytime that's happened... it was a hail mary trying to get the beer to clear when (clearly) something existed that prevented the beer from clearing... bad mash pH, a weak boil, problematic malt, etc.  In those occasions the beer didn't clear but it wasn't because I added gel after carbing.  It was something else. 
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 19, 2022, 11:43:54 am
When adding gelatin for clearing, it is done immediately after putting the beer in kegs. At the same time, we will burst carbonate the beer, at 50 psi.
The beers are always brilliant clear. Crystal clear.

You would be surprised how many commercial beers I have that are hazy! And these are Euro Lagers!
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: HighVoltageMan! on June 19, 2022, 11:44:16 am
I spund most of my beers and I clear nearly every beer with gelatin. Adding gelatin to beer that is carbonated is not much different than a still beer. The gelatin is useful for dropping yeast and haze forming proteins and tannins, so even a beer with a flocculant yeast often needs something to complete the clearing of the beer to a brilliant polish. It either needs a clarifier or lots of time.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: MDL on June 19, 2022, 03:49:29 pm
I spund most of my beers and I clear nearly every beer with gelatin. Adding gelatin to beer that is carbonated is not much different than a still beer. The gelatin is useful for dropping yeast and haze forming proteins and tannins, so even a beer with a flocculant yeast often needs something to complete the clearing of the beer to a brilliant polish. It either needs a clarifier or lots of time.

Same for me. Spunded beer in fermenter and then gelatin dosed into receiving keg. Clear beer draught floats in keg and clear carbonated beer in 12 hours.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: MDL on June 19, 2022, 03:51:14 pm
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.

Hi Denny. Curious what the difference on the pils is? Hopping perhaps?

I’m always looking for variations to try on my German pils. Seeking perfection!
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Richard on June 19, 2022, 04:13:38 pm
I spund most of my beers and I clear nearly every beer with gelatin. Adding gelatin to beer that is carbonated is not much different than a still beer. The gelatin is useful for dropping yeast and haze forming proteins and tannins, so even a beer with a flocculant yeast often needs something to complete the clearing of the beer to a brilliant polish. It either needs a clarifier or lots of time.
I usually add gelatin during the cold crash, when the temp has dropped to mid-30s. Then after a couple of days I transfer to the keg. That way I leave most of the yeast and haze-forming compounds behind. I still give it 1-2 weeks to carbonate and by then the beer is generally quite clear. I thought I could skip the gelatin this time, but that wasn't the case. I have a refrigerator space crunch coming up and can't leave this keg in for another month.

By the way, the beer tasted better after it cleared so it was not just cosmetic.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: BrewBama on June 19, 2022, 07:10:57 pm
I’ve had some beers refuse to clear for whatever reason. I’ll use gelatin on those few. Otherwise, BtB, whirlflock, time, and temp seem to take care of them nicely.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: tommymorris on June 19, 2022, 08:52:35 pm
I’ve had some beers refuse to clear for whatever reason. I’ll use gelatin on those few. Otherwise, BtB, whirlflock, time, and temp seem to take care of them nicely.
I think it’s also the floating dip tubes. Ever since I started using those, I have hardly, if at all, needed gelatin. My beers clear in one to weeks now.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: denny on June 20, 2022, 07:49:17 am
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.

Hi Denny. Curious what the difference on the pils is? Hopping perhaps?

I’m always looking for variations to try on my German pils. Seeking perfection!

Slightly different on hops based on what I had on hand.  One made with Rahr North Star pils, the other with Crisp Hana.  Again, based on what I had on hand.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Bel Air Brewing on June 20, 2022, 01:57:25 pm
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.

Hi Denny. Curious what the difference on the pils is? Hopping perhaps?

I’m always looking for variations to try on my German pils. Seeking perfection!

Slightly different on hops based on what I had on hand.  One made with Rahr North Star pils, the other with Crisp Hana.  Again, based on what I had on hand.

You could switch out the yeast, as an experiment. We recently brewed a Pale Premium Czech Pils. A split 10 gallon brew, with Diamond and Wyeast 2124 in each of the 5 gallons. You would think the beers would be identical, but they are not.
The Diamond is more sharp, and crisp. The 2124 is more soft, and for some reason it accents the hops much more.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: MDL on June 20, 2022, 03:26:30 pm
I have 2 different pils made with Diamond on tap.  Both dropped clear without gelatin, so I don't know if you can necessarily blame it on the yeast.

Hi Denny. Curious what the difference on the pils is? Hopping perhaps?

I’m always looking for variations to try on my German pils. Seeking perfection!

Slightly different on hops based on what I had on hand.  One made with Rahr North Star pils, the other with Crisp Hana.  Again, based on what I had on hand.

You could switch out the yeast, as an experiment. We recently brewed a Pale Premium Czech Pils. A split 10 gallon brew, with Diamond and Wyeast 2124 in each of the 5 gallons. You would think the beers would be identical, but they are not.
The Diamond is more sharp, and crisp. The 2124 is more soft, and for some reason it accents the hops much more.

That’s good advice. I have some CellarScience Baja I’m going to try next. Been using Diamond.

I think I’ve settled on my grain bill for pils. 50/50 Best Pils and Heidelberg.

For hops I’ve been doing Mittelfruh in three additions. FWH/30 min/10 min. Equal additions to 40 bu. Tried mixing in a little tettnang, Saaz, my.hood and sapphire. Thinking of trying a single addition at 40 minutes. Maybe Perle.

Have also played with my sulfate level. From around 35ppm to 75 ish
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Village Taphouse on June 20, 2022, 03:46:50 pm
I have some CellarScience Baja I’m going to try next
So did you buy the giant package of it that was around $100 from MoreBeer?  Very curious about this yeast and I'd like to give it a run too but I wish they'd come out with a smaller package.  Do you have experience with Omega 113 or White Labs 940 (seems like the same strain)?  If the Baja produced that character I would be a happy brewer.  Please let us know how it behaves and how the beer comes out.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: MDL on June 20, 2022, 05:00:52 pm
I have some CellarScience Baja I’m going to try next
So did you buy the giant package of it that was around $100 from MoreBeer?  Very curious about this yeast and I'd like to give it a run too but I wish they'd come out with a smaller package.  Do you have experience with Omega 113 or White Labs 940 (seems like the same strain)?  If the Baja produced that character I would be a happy brewer.  Please let us know how it behaves and how the beer comes out.  Cheers.

Yes. 500 grams. Batch will be 34 gallons so was going to pitch 250 grams of yeast no rehydration. 48F ferm temp.

I have no experience with the liquid yeast versions you mentioned but I will definitely post my results with the Baja yeast. Hopefully brewing this Saturday!

FWIW I’ve had excellent results with the “German” and “Berlin” yeasts from CellarScience.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Richard on June 22, 2022, 09:49:17 pm
Mystery solved! Somebody changed the temperature setting on the refrigerator and the keg was not nearly as cold as it should have been, so it was taking a long time to clear.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Village Taphouse on June 23, 2022, 07:00:41 am
Mystery solved! Somebody changed the temperature setting on the refrigerator and the keg was not nearly as cold as it should have been, so it was taking a long time to clear.
WHOA!  Mysterious.
Title: Re: Gelatin after carbonation
Post by: Village Taphouse on June 23, 2022, 07:06:30 am
I have some CellarScience Baja I’m going to try next
So did you buy the giant package of it that was around $100 from MoreBeer?  Very curious about this yeast and I'd like to give it a run too but I wish they'd come out with a smaller package.  Do you have experience with Omega 113 or White Labs 940 (seems like the same strain)?  If the Baja produced that character I would be a happy brewer.  Please let us know how it behaves and how the beer comes out.  Cheers.

Yes. 500 grams. Batch will be 34 gallons so was going to pitch 250 grams of yeast no rehydration. 48F ferm temp.

I have no experience with the liquid yeast versions you mentioned but I will definitely post my results with the Baja yeast. Hopefully brewing this Saturday!

FWIW I’ve had excellent results with the “German” and “Berlin” yeasts from CellarScience.
Please keep us posted.  I think there are multiple threads that mention the Baja yeast now.  This goes back a bit but I went on a 10-year anniversary trip back to the resort we stayed at on Mexico's Pacific coast in 2002 and I discovered Victoria beer which at that time was not available in the US.  I believe that 940/113/Baja is (or came from) Modelo's yeast.  I remember the delicious character of that beer as I sat in one of those straw-canopied places on the beach.  Also, in those days White Labs 940 was a platinum strain and only available occasionally and I usually ordered some.  I recognized the character I liked in my own beers made with 940.  So I have a personal infatuation with this yeast and of course it would be sweet if there was a dry version.  I could be a happy brewer with Diamond, Baja, BRY-97 and S-04.  Good luck on the big batch.