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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: dhacker on September 24, 2010, 12:08:05 AM

Title: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: dhacker on September 24, 2010, 12:08:05 AM
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20100922006528/en/Rehrig-Pacific-Company-Introduces-PubKeg%E2%84%A2
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: capozzoli on September 24, 2010, 12:28:19 AM
very cool. I wonder how much they will cost or what the cons will be.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: beerocd on September 24, 2010, 12:41:06 AM
Who cares what those cost - the real kegs will flood the market like corny kegs did. Woohoo!
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: a10t2 on September 24, 2010, 12:57:59 AM
The "real" kegs are worth something as scrap though... they're going to be literally throwing these plastic ones away!
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Hokerer on September 24, 2010, 01:44:51 AM
The "real" kegs are worth something as scrap though... they're going to be literally throwing these plastic ones away!

Just what we need, more trash for our "disposable throwaway society"
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: bluesman on September 24, 2010, 01:50:44 AM
Interesting concept.  I am partial to SS though, but I would like to try one out for grins and giggles.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: a10t2 on September 24, 2010, 02:07:54 AM
Just what we need, more trash for our "disposable throwaway society"

That was my first thought too, actually.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: tschmidlin on September 24, 2010, 06:35:07 AM
Just what we need, more trash for our "disposable throwaway society"

That was my first thought too, actually.
Agreed.  At least they're recyclable and made from recycled materials.  I don't know how much they will be, but I can imagine a lot of breweries sticking with the SS and maybe buying a few of these for when they ship beer across the country - like to GABF for example.  Brewers are cheap, I think they have to be to make money.  I know one brewer who still mostly uses golden gates, and sees no reason to change.  Well, I should say the owner sees no reason to change, the brewer would love to get some newer technology.   ;D
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: euge on September 24, 2010, 06:55:24 AM
I was thinking of the waste, but it's also really a brilliant idea. The gigantic PET bottle is the disposable part right? With the potential buy-back option for the outer shell it'd be perfect and a closed loop. Someone would make a buck collecting from pubs and recycling or selling the PET bottles. There's always a niche.

But like all new approaches it needs to become "standard" and with Sankey tap it can become something like: "We're phasing out metal kegs. This is what you get from now on..." 


 

Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Slowbrew on September 24, 2010, 04:19:48 PM
Who cares what those cost - the real kegs will flood the market like corny kegs did. Woohoo!

I won't get too excited just yet.  It's a 1/6 barrel keg without any other sizes available.  It might replace a pony key but the 16 gallon one everyone craves will still be the old standby (for now).  Besides, the big boys have very large infrastructures in place to handle the current standard kegs.  This seems to be directed at the smaller local brewer looking to distribute to a smaller area without the huge expense to setup the old SS type systems.

The big boys might decide to wait and see what issues they have also.  I have heard that Pepsi and Coke are backing off bag-in-box to some extent due to rodent issues.  It's a lot easier to chew through a plastic bag (or box) than a SS tank.

IMHO

Paul
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: MrNate on September 24, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Yeah, I always wonder about this sort of thing. The near-indestructible packaging was initially adopted for a reason. It'd be kind of like the army deciding to replace their humvees with ford explorers to save on cost.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Slowbrew on September 24, 2010, 05:28:49 PM
That's funny, because they kind of did for awhile.

My brother (a West Point grad) had an old jeap that the army decided should be replaced by a Chevy Bronco while he was stationed in Germany.  Lordie, how he hated that Bronco.  The thing got stuck if it thought about raining and it broke down all the time.  He'd b!@#$ about how he could fix the jeap with a screwdriver and a pair of pliers but it took a "Certified Mechanic" to do anything on the Bronco.

He was also forced to carry a Barreta 9mm as his side arm for awhile too.  After the breach broke on his 3rd one he petitioned for and received a waiver so he could go back to his Colt.  So did his commanding officer.

Paul
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 24, 2010, 10:23:49 PM
I bought a bunch of kegs from these guys http://www.plastickegsusa.com/ - so far so good.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: tschmidlin on September 25, 2010, 04:53:19 AM
I bought a bunch of kegs from these guys http://www.plastickegsusa.com/ - so far so good.
Did you get 1/6 th barrel kegs?  How much did you pay for them?
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 25, 2010, 12:19:51 PM
I got forty 1/6th bbls and eight 1/2 bbls. I think the 1/6th bbls were about 80 bucks a piece. They come with a 3 year warranty that they won't leak.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 25, 2010, 03:41:50 PM
The "real" kegs are worth something as scrap though... they're going to be literally throwing these plastic ones away!

Just what we need, more trash for our "disposable throwaway society"

Well, here's something to think about. The energy costs and caustic used to clean kegs may even out any environmental impacts of these being "disposable". Also, a low end keg cleaner starts at around 6K and an automatic, 3 bay one starts at around 15K. Not to mention man hours it takes to clean kegs. It is a very attractive option to have kegs ready to fill, depending on the price.

Personally I can;t get their stupid heavy-ass sight to load on my slow-ass dial-up.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 26, 2010, 03:15:55 AM
Everyone tries to justify "disposable" as being environmentally friendly and it's always BS. Dig into the real details and reusable is better, 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 12:50:31 PM
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out when you factor in the amount of energy used to clean kegs and the amount of caustic used. It may not when you factor in the energy to recycle or manufacture. I don't really know. I'm not sticking up for one way or the other, just offering up a different viewpoint others may not have thought about. Keg washing is certainly not "environmentally friendly". Nor is beer brewing for that matter.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Hokerer on September 26, 2010, 03:04:18 PM
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out

Little disingenuous there, don't you think  :)

Cleaning, caustic, heck, even throw in the return transportation costs and, like he said, 99 times out of 100 "reuse" is still gonna beat "recycle" hands down. 
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 03:19:24 PM
I don't see where I said anything was "environmentally friendly" - I said that it "may" even out

Little disingenuous there, don't you think  :)

Uhm. No. I don't. In fact, throwing out a generic term such as "99 times out of 100" is what seems disingenuous to me.  ;)

One of you two figure it out on paper and show me some figures. Just throwing out "99 times out of 100" over these here interwebs just isn't convincing enough for me.

Regardless, I'm just playing the devil's advocate. In reality I am a big proponent of bringing back returnable bottles and am trying to figure out a way to do this at my own brewery. But I am not closing my mind to any option that would keep me from having to wash kegs at this point. Understand this doesn't mean I am buying them or even advocating. Only considering. High horses be damned.   :P
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Hokerer on September 26, 2010, 03:36:23 PM
Uhm. No. I don't. In fact, throwing out a generic term such as "99 times out of 100" is what seems disingenuous to me.  ;)

Touche' , point awarded :)

And, no thanks, not gonna do that paper analysis
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: beerocd on September 26, 2010, 04:49:53 PM
I got forty 1/6th bbls and eight 1/2 bbls. I think the 1/6th bbls were about 80 bucks a piece. They come with a 3 year warranty that they won't leak.

But aren't they "one way" packaging? What's with the 3 year warranty? If you're reusing - aren't you still washing same as stainless? And as one way packaging - how much more does your beer need to cost compared to the micro down the street that will most likely get their keg back for reuse?
Just trying to see if the economics really do work out on this.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 05:02:07 PM
No, you misunderstand me, perhaps I wasn't clear or maybe you are combing two separate topics in this thread. The plastic kegs I posted are reusable kegs made to withstand the same riggers as stainless. They are not disposable. Actually they have been in use in breweries for a few years now and they are just now starting to get them to work "leak free". There are some people who think that these plastic kegs are what are going to become the replacement for stainless. Much cheaper and much less likely to be stolen. My only reason to include this snippet in a "won't be long" thread.

I hadn't heard of the disposable kegs before this thread. I currently don't own any disposable kegs and have no immediate plans to own any, but I am interested in looking into them.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 26, 2010, 06:28:23 PM
I would imagine that many of the big breweries use high pressure steam to clean their SS kegs. While it does take energy to generate the steam it's nothing compared to the energy to make new plastic ones. It'll NEVER even out.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 06:36:56 PM
Either steam, or 180 degree water. Plus caustic. Plus sanitizer. Plus rinse water. Plus energy to move them from location to location. You may be right - but like I said, I'd need to see the #s before I could be swayed one way or another. I would assume that it would cost more energy to make and recycle the disposable kegs. But how much more? And if measures are created to cut back on the amount of caustic going directly into the local water way do the benefits outweigh the negatives? What about man power needed to run the equipment to clean the kegs? Factor in all the kegs that annually come up missing or damaged and that have to be replaced anyway. There's all kinds of factors that would need to be considered. Someone show me the numbers. That's all I'm saying.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: beerocd on September 26, 2010, 06:37:03 PM
No, you misunderstand me, perhaps I wasn't clear or maybe you are combing two separate topics in this thread. The plastic kegs I posted are reusable kegs made to withstand the same riggers as stainless. They are not disposable. Actually they have been in use in breweries for a few years now and they are just now starting to get them to work "leak free". There are some people who think that these plastic kegs are what are going to become the replacement for stainless. Much cheaper and much less likely to be stolen. My only reason to include this snippet in a "won't be long" thread.

I hadn't heard of the disposable kegs before this thread. I currently don't own any disposable kegs and have no immediate plans to own any, but I am interested in looking into them.

I think the problem was the thread hadn't gone off track quite yet - so I got lulled into a false sense of continuity of the topic.
To the "green" people" couldn't you just stop drinking beer - and take care of this problem at the root cause?
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 26, 2010, 07:15:33 PM
I'm not sure you would have to use anything besides high pressure steam to clean and sanitize the kegs, provided they're SS.

I couldn't possibly show you any numbers, nor would I want to spend the time to do so. However, common logic says that cleaning/reusing kegs is cheaper and environmentally more friendly.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 08:03:29 PM
I personally have never heard of a keg cleaner than only used steam. All stainless kegs at least need to be passivated once with acid. And they need to be rinsed. The ones I have seen use steam, caustic and sanitizer.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 26, 2010, 08:25:17 PM
Even if caustic is used for cleaning, it pales in comparison to the chemicals used to produce the plastic parts for disposable kegs. If disposable was really better, we'd all be eating on paper plates and drinking from plastic cups.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: nicneufeld on September 26, 2010, 08:28:04 PM
I couldn't possibly show you any numbers, nor would I want to spend the time to do so. However, common logic says that cleaning/reusing kegs is cheaper and environmentally more friendly.

Without numbers, I don't really see why common logic would determine such.  Unless you have numbers on what sort of energy is actually used in these areas, the only standard you have to judge by is your own feelings on the matter, which will vary widely from person to person and be far from "common".

No heat mead and wine brewing may be the "greenest" of all!  Now if your mead actually IS green, then you might want to review your sanitation processes.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 26, 2010, 08:50:17 PM
If disposable was really better, we'd all be eating on paper plates and drinking from plastic cups.

I'm just going to point out that I'm pretty sure everyone here has.  ;)

The one other thing I would add is that compared to bottles and cans dropped in the land fills and recycle bins across the county, the plastic kegs would be a drop in the bucket.

Also +1 one to nicneufeld - hard to really determine the logic without the numbers. That's all I am saying. Not saying anyone is right or wrong one way or another. But there are a lot of factors not being considered. The extra man hours needed to clean kegs could equal more Happy Meal containers neeed to feed said brewers and those would end up in the land fill too. Just sayin'.  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 26, 2010, 08:52:25 PM
If you want to believe that cleaning kegs is more costly and less environmentally friendly than reproducing and discarding plastic kegs, then be my guest, Our landfills will love you.   :-\

Also, since no one on the pro-disposable side is throwing out any numbers either, it's ALL based on our opinions, of course yours is wrong.  ;)
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: bluesman on September 27, 2010, 12:56:15 AM
It's all about saving money and time in the long run.

"By creating a one-way packaging option, Rehrig has eliminated deposit costs, tracking, and paperwork for brewers who own or lease kegs."

We'll all be "old school" in due time.  I like SS for the durability and because I am use to using them.
Plastic kegs...well, I just can't seem to wrap my arms around it yet.

Time will tell... :-\
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: nicneufeld on September 27, 2010, 12:29:01 PM
Whenever I see this thread title, I naturally hear john and paul echoing back and forth "yeah!" "yeah!" "yeah!" "yeah!".  The only one perhaps?
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 27, 2010, 01:00:37 PM
It's all about saving money and time in the long run.

"By creating a one-way packaging option, Rehrig has eliminated deposit costs, tracking, and paperwork for brewers who own or lease kegs."

We'll all be "old school" in due time.  I like SS for the durability and because I am use to using them.
Plastic kegs...well, I just can't seem to wrap my arms around it yet.

Time will tell... :-\

You have to factor in the time and money. As in the recent thread "Should BrewPubs serve BMC", some may have to to survive. Doesn't mean everyone will respect or appreciate that. Breweries are having a real problem getting used kegs right now - especially ones that are worth a damn. And new SS kegs are E-X-P-E-N-S-I-V-E! I have a few SS kegs but, in my case, needed plastic kegs to supplement the shortage. I have a homemade keg cleaner - I could not afford the 15K brand new Keg Cleaner (though, its on the agenda, I assure you! Cleaning kegs is rather time and man power intensive).

So I can totally see how disposable kegs would be an attractive option. I can also see how they could have more impact on the environment - but I don;t know how much more. My guess is, less that a lot of people expect. Also, as I mentioned before, draft packaged beer is only something like 20-30% of all beer sales. The rest is ALL disposable packaging! So the disposable kegs are really just a drop in the bucket. And, if more people would take the time to have draft beer at home, or if restaurants could cut back on the amount of  canned and bottled beers they serve and move to draft, and if disposable kegs helped to make this happen - then you may be talking about LESS landfill waste. Not more - especially if they are recyclable.

Like I said, there are all kinds of facts that are not being taken into consideration here. Even the weight of stainless steel kegs and the amount of energy it takes to transport them compared to the much, much lighter plastic. I haven't seen anyone who is opposed to the disposable kegs really give any facts, only opinions. Thats the only reason I said - someone figure it out.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 27, 2010, 02:17:43 PM
I've read that some of these disposable kegs are not UV protected and can be oxygen permeable. If I order a keg of craft beer, which I often times do, and it comes in plastic, it won't be going home with me. This beer costs too much to risk being skunked or oxidized.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: majorvices on September 27, 2010, 02:48:40 PM
That might be a good reason to not store beers long term in plastic kegs. But for most styles it simply won't be an issue. I'm only using my plastic kegs (which, in case anyone wasn't paying attention - are not disposable  ;)) for quick turn around beers. Right now a White and an IPA, and soon an alt. These kegs are in no way penetrable by lighht (they are completely opaque) and are supposedly highly resistant to oxidation - but for the beers I plan on storing they will be going in stainless to avoid any concerns. I do not know about these issues with disposable kegs. Could be an important point to consider. But surely they would be UV resistant, at the very least.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Mikey on September 27, 2010, 06:52:43 PM
 http://www.ibdafrica.co.za/Files/IBD%20proceedings/Papers/021%20Tippmann.pdf  (http://www.ibdafrica.co.za/Files/IBD%20proceedings/Papers/021%20Tippmann.pdf)

I got that information here. If you go down into the document you can see the ones that would have UV problems.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: fightdman on January 16, 2012, 09:31:17 PM
I bought a bunch of kegs from these guys http://www.plastickegsusa.com/ - so far so good.

Sorry about dredging up this old topic, but I wanted to find out how the plastic kegs are working for you.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on January 17, 2012, 12:49:40 AM
I bought a bunch of kegs from these guys http://www.plastickegsusa.com/ - so far so good.

Sorry about dredging up this old topic, but I wanted to find out how the plastic kegs are working for you.
I have 77 1/2 BBL kegs and 6 1/4 BBL kegs.
I have one leaky keg so far.
I like the kegs but the customer service is horrible.

I need to buy more 1/4 BBL kegs and I am not sure if I buy more kegs from them.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: a10t2 on January 17, 2012, 08:04:13 PM
They're fine as long as you don't have to pull the stems. The threads are plastic, so they get torn up and won't hold a seal after a while.
Title: Re: Won't Be Long . . .
Post by: weithman5 on January 17, 2012, 09:55:49 PM
i noticed that plastic kegs usa now sells 1/12 bbl (2.56) gallon kegs.  i would love to have that size keg.  their site also says not for homebrewing.  anybody know why?  is it the sanke valve, is it overly difficult to remove and replace? or is there some other reason.  i don't know the price but boy if these could be had reasonably i could buy some