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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: roguejim on September 30, 2010, 07:16:18 PM

Title: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: roguejim on September 30, 2010, 07:16:18 PM
I would like to brew a bitter with a bit of fruitiness.

1) Does SO-4 provide any fruitiness?

2) What strain would be my best choice here?

3) Is there any part of the brewing/fermentation process which can be manipulated to produce more or less fruitiness?

A few years ago, I used WY1275(Thames Valley), which produced some nice fruitiness.  But, I was not able to repeat it.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: euge on September 30, 2010, 07:17:45 PM
I like Windsor dry yeast.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: tumarkin on September 30, 2010, 07:31:30 PM
Windsor is a good choice. As far as brewing techniques, fruitiness is a result of esters thrown by the yeast. Some strains produce more (or less) than others, but whichever yeast you go with you want to ferment at a little bit higher temperature to encourage the fruitiness. Not too high, or you're likely to get fusels & nasty higher alcohols. Check the yeast vendors website to get their recommend temp range. Stay within the higher middle of that range.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: bluesman on September 30, 2010, 09:03:24 PM
I like to use White Labs WLP002 yeast for my English Ales.  Produces a fair amount of fruitiness and flocculates well.  Pitch at 64F and slowly raise to 68F to get a relatively higher level of fruitiness.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: dhacker on October 01, 2010, 12:39:15 AM
I would like to brew a bitter with a bit of fruitiness.

1) Does SO-4 provide any fruitiness?


Yes . . it does. But, don't know how much you are shooting for. It's not the fruitiest English strain, but definitely some.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: amish electrician on October 01, 2010, 04:14:54 AM
I like to use White Labs WLP002 yeast for my English Ales.  Produces a fair amount of fruitiness and flocculates well.  Pitch at 64F and slowly raise to 68F to get a relatively higher level of fruitiness.

+1 I really like the fruitiness 002 gives off when you raise the temp like that.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: roguejim on October 01, 2010, 09:44:06 AM
In your understanding, do esters refer to flavor, or aroma?  Both?
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: bluesman on October 01, 2010, 10:32:47 AM
In your understanding, do esters refer to flavor, or aroma?  Both?

Esters can be detected in flavor and aroma.  Almost always fruity in nature.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: denny on October 01, 2010, 04:00:05 PM
Jim asked me this question offline and I said that usually I was talking about flavor, but that it might also be appropriate to refer to esters in aroma.  We've heard from Ron now....what about some more opinions?
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: roguejim on October 01, 2010, 06:39:26 PM
Okay...

I'm looking over this BJCP scoresheet of mine for an APA.  The judge (Grand Master III level) uses the term "ester" to refer to aspects of both the aroma, and flavor.  Aroma-low peach ester.  Flavor- light white grape ester in finish.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: tumarkin on October 01, 2010, 07:53:44 PM
Jim asked me this question offline and I said that usually I was talking about flavor, but that it might also be appropriate to refer to esters in aroma.  We've heard from Ron now....what about some more opinions?

no question - esters can be detected by both the nose & the tastebuds. look at the BJCP style guidelines and you'll see many of the stle descriptions refer to esters in both aroma & flavor
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: mabrungard on October 02, 2010, 03:15:03 AM
The production of esters can be affected by both the fermentation temperature and by the yeast pitching rate.  Pitching too little yeast encourages more yeast growth and ester production.  This is very desirable in Hefeweizens.  Overpitching reduces the yeast growth and ester production. 
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: redbeerman on October 02, 2010, 12:45:24 PM
I'm with Ron on this one.  Both aroma and taste can pick up esters in beer.  Esters are used in the manufacture of artificial flavorings as well.  FWIW.  I like WLP-002 for English beers.  Although S-04 is OK in a pinch.

Here is an interesting link about the subject. (for beer nerds) ;)

http://getcheminfo.wikispaces.com/abilinski (http://getcheminfo.wikispaces.com/abilinski)
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: bluesman on October 02, 2010, 03:13:12 PM
I'm with Ron on this one.  Both aroma and taste can pick up esters in beer.  Esters are used in the manufacture of artificial flavorings as well.  FWIW.  I like WLP-002 for English beers.  Although S-04 is OK in a pinch.

Here is an interesting link about the subject. (for beer nerds) ;)

http://getcheminfo.wikispaces.com/abilinski (http://getcheminfo.wikispaces.com/abilinski)

Nice find Jim!  I like it.  :)
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: denny on October 02, 2010, 03:44:51 PM
The production of esters can be affected by both the fermentation temperature and by the yeast pitching rate.  Pitching too little yeast encourages more yeast growth and ester production.  This is very desirable in Hefeweizens.  Overpitching reduces the yeast growth and ester production. 

Martin, I've also read things that indicate the opposite, i.e. yeast growth leads to decreased ester production. If you have time, I'd appreciate your take on this..

http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/yeast-growth
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: gordonstrong on October 03, 2010, 02:02:22 PM
I guess I don't get the point of trying to describe esters as an aroma or a flavor. An ester is a chemical compound, which has an aroma and a flavor. Some chemical compounds have one or the other, some also have a mouthfeel component.  One of the better references that I've seen that takes Meilgaard's flavor wheel and decomposes it into table form is this: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/FlavW.html (http://hbd.org/brewery/library/FlavW.html)

Look at the chart and see if something is described as an odor (aroma), taste, and/or mouthfeel.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: malzig on October 03, 2010, 08:40:42 PM
Also, we all know from high school biology and Japanese cooking that we can probably only taste 5 basic flavors: sweet, salty, sour, bitter and umami.  Most if not all other "flavors" are actually aromas that our brain mis-interprets as flavor.  Esters are most probably aromas, but we may perceive them as flavors because our brains lie to us a lot.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: roguejim on October 04, 2010, 02:02:50 AM
I guess I don't get the point of trying to describe esters as an aroma or a flavor. An ester is a chemical compound, which has an aroma and a flavor. Some chemical compounds have one or the other, some also have a mouthfeel component.  One of the better references that I've seen that takes Meilgaard's flavor wheel and decomposes it into table form is this: http://hbd.org/brewery/library/FlavW.html (http://hbd.org/brewery/library/FlavW.html)

Look at the chart and see if something is described as an odor (aroma), taste, and/or mouthfeel.

I think you answered your own question. 

I wanted to know whether esters referred to perceived aroma, or flavor.  It appears both.  Now I know.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: brushvalleybrewer on October 05, 2010, 12:20:13 AM
I would like to brew a bitter with a bit of fruitiness.

1) Does SO-4 provide any fruitiness?

As far as aroma, I find that S-04 produces the aroma of apricots.

Try this… Rehydrate a sachet of S-04 in a zip-top bag, evacuating all of the air. After the appropriate time, open the top and give a good whiff. Fresh apricots.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: jaybeerman on October 05, 2010, 10:21:04 PM
The production of esters can be affected by both the fermentation temperature and by the yeast pitching rate.  Pitching too little yeast encourages more yeast growth and ester production.  This is very desirable in Hefeweizens.  Overpitching reduces the yeast growth and ester production. 

Martin, I've also read things that indicate the opposite, i.e. yeast growth leads to decreased ester production. If you have time, I'd appreciate your take on this..

http://www.danstaryeast.com/library/yeast-growth


Denny/Martin, This is a question/topic that I've been fascinated with as well.  BrewChem 101 states, high yeast pitching rates will lead to increased ester production.  But my favorite quote on the subject is in Principles of Brewing Science; "Brewing procedures are quite important to ester production. These are HIGHLY VARIED and sometimes SEEMINGLY CONTRADICTORY."  A little later on, he states that under pitching [thus high rates of growth] encourages ester formation.  I have found in discussions with Brewing Science Institute that the brewing procedures necessary (under or over pitch) for ester production will change depending on which variety of yeast is being used; we also discussed fermentation temperature and aeration. Anyway, nice topic and I will enjoy reading everyone’s comments.  Cheers, j 
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: denny on October 06, 2010, 04:08:46 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Jay.  I think it can be pretty much summed by by an old Firesign Theater line...."Everything you know is wrong"!
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: jaybeerman on October 06, 2010, 08:15:01 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Jay.  I think it can be pretty much summed by by an old Firesign Theater line...."Everything you know is wrong"!

haha, yeah, ever feel like the more you learn the less you know
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: beersk on October 06, 2010, 09:01:42 PM
Is S-04 good in an English IPA?  I hope so because I plan to brew one with that yeast this weekend.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: bluesman on October 06, 2010, 09:06:33 PM
Is S-04 good in an English IPA?  I hope so because I plan to brew one with that yeast this weekend.

Yes.  It is a well known commercial ale yeast known for it's fast fermentation and high flocculation.  It will lend a medium mouthfeel and some mild fruity esters to your beer.
Title: Re: English yeast...Fruitiness wanted
Post by: chumley on October 07, 2010, 02:47:21 PM
I use WY1968 a lot, and I can definitely say that it is much fruitier when underpitched than when overpitched.  I don't make starters when brewing a bitter with it just so I can get more esters.  When I use the yeast cake to brew IPA after the bitter is done, it is far less fruity.

I have found the same is true with wiessbier yeasts 3068 and 3333. Far less banana when you use a yeast cake.

Back to the original question....while WY1968/WLP002 can give pretty good fruitiness, I have had my best luck with WLP023 Burton yeast.

Also....try the old trick of "dropping"....about 14 hours after you have pitched the yeast and fermentation has started, put your spigoted fermentation bucket on a table, open the spit, and let the fermenting wort "drop" into another primary fermenter.  That trick, which I read about years ago on the HBD, always seems to increase the esters a bit (as well as adding just a hint of diacetyl, which I also like.

Also, check your hops....I find that Target gives a kind of berry flavor to a bitter.