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General Category => Other Fermentables => Topic started by: bluefoxicy on October 11, 2010, 04:57:46 PM

Title: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 11, 2010, 04:57:46 PM
Using Whole milk here... Trickle Springs Creamery.

My Kefir is propagating RAPIDLY in this stuff... half a cup (2 1/4 cup batches, 4 days) and it's doubled in bulk.  Tasted the first batch, it's decent; I'm drinking the second.  Slightly sour but not "bad" or "rotten," definitely alcoholic but can't be more than 1%, fermented for 2 days at room temperature.

I'm having no trouble drinking this stuff... once the grains have grown enough, I'll be able to do 1/2 gallon or so batches, maybe fridge batches so I have some to drink throughout the week.  Double-ferment:  Ferment, strain into new container, put back into the fridge.

I must admit I find chilled Lassi and fresh milk tastier though.  This stuff has a chalky aftertaste; also I think I'd prefer it more chilled.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 11, 2010, 05:22:41 PM
blender, blueberries, banana  ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on October 11, 2010, 06:39:11 PM
This is one product I have yet to try.

Some culinary uses I discovered online. Kefir is one of the main ingredients in Lithuanian cold beet soup (Polish chlodnik), commonly known as cold borscht. Other variations of kefir soups and foods prepared with kefir are popular across the former Soviet Union and Poland. Kefir may be used in lieu of milk on cereal or granola.

Hey Cap...what do you know about this one?

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 11, 2010, 06:53:49 PM
Cap ferments cabbage - not milk.  :D
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 11, 2010, 08:08:39 PM
Alcoholic kefir? With grains? Never heard anything about it. I cant imagine that you can ferment milk with grains it will separate aka curdle.

What are you doing blue? Lets see that recipe.

The kefir I know is just a more liquid yoururt. Sometimes made with just whey. Basically cultured whey. That is what real butter milk is the liquid that is left over after churning the butter is culture, Butter milk. The butter milk we get in the grocery store is more like kefir.

"Real kefir" is raw milk that has the cream removed and has been left out warm for a time till it naturally cultures and gets thicker. No added cultures just like cream fresh. Creme fresh is the soured cream, kefir isthe sour milk.

Thats how I understand it anyway.

Hey, remember that movie Alien Nation?  The aliens got drunk on rotten milk. Maybe Blue is an alien.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 11, 2010, 09:57:54 PM
Alcoholic kefir? With grains? Never heard anything about it. I cant imagine that you can ferment milk with grains it will separate aka curdle.

What are you doing blue? Lets see that recipe.

Kefir grains. Milk. Time.  How much recipe can you get?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Kefir-grains-90grams.jpg/610px-Kefir-grains-90grams.jpg)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 11, 2010, 10:04:45 PM
How did you make the kefir grains? Obviously no real grains in the cereal sense of the word right?  

Are you using whole milk? or whey. Is it coming up carbonated. I have heard this called "milk beer" but never saw those grains before.

We are talking about lactic acid fermentation right? Does it make alcohol?

The Japanese make something called Calpico which I bet is similar.  

I am intrigued.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 11, 2010, 10:32:54 PM
Alcoholic kefir? With grains? Never heard anything about it. I cant imagine that you can ferment milk with grains it will separate aka curdle.

Kefir "grains" are these cauliflower looking colonies of bacteria and yeast. You have to GET them from someone - you can't make them. They ferment the milk. You use them perpetually - strain from one batch and use them in another. They multiply, you can give em away, toss em, or sell em to some other sucker. They range from raisin size to golfball size. Yes, it can get as high as a whopping percent of alcohol because they are eating the sugar in the milk.

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html (http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html) go to this link - you'll get a Kefir PhD in no time.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 11, 2010, 10:39:34 PM
 Awesome. So what I have been buying in the Russian store that is labeled Kefir isnt Kefir at all. Kinda like grocery store butter milk isnt butter milk at all.

So Blue, where did you get your kefir grains? 
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 11, 2010, 10:45:36 PM
They have a powered mix of bacteria that they throw in there to thicken it up and it's kinda like kefir but not really. It does taste good and it's still good for you, it's just likely not the real thing. And they're temperamental little f##kers too! Temp of the house, not quite right ratio of milk to grains - changes the consistency of the kefir.

Get on yahoo groups - there's a kefir group there, or find a local Weston Price Foundation group and they'd likely share.
Or BFI would probably have some to share with you in about a week or two - they multiply like crazy.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 11, 2010, 10:52:38 PM
Does the milk have to be raw? 

Blue when you say whole milk do you mean that it has not yet been homogenized?
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 11, 2010, 10:55:18 PM
So Blue, where did you get your kefir grains?  

Amazon.  Real-man-of-genius.

Does the milk have to be raw?  

Blue when you say whole milk do you mean that it has not yet been homogenized?

No, the milk is flash-pasteurized.  TSC doesn't use any antibiotics (on healthy animals at least) or growth hormones, and pasture-grazes their cows.  Pasteurization is done by raising to 145 degrees and then crash cooling, so the milk is thicker and creamier due to less protein denaturing.

Whole milk is whole milk.  "Cream Line" whole milk is non-homogenized.

Or BFI would probably have some to share with you in about a week or two - they multiply like crazy.

My sample was dust sized.  In 4 days (2 x 1/4 cup batches) it's become... a quarter teaspoon.  Next week maybe I'll have a tablespoon at this rate, we'll see.

I have to concur, these are growing rather fast.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 11, 2010, 11:04:34 PM
Oh, I thought that 10 inch plate was your kefir.
I've made it with skim, 2 percent, whole, raw. The end product all kinda seems the same to me.
BFI if you want them to grow a little faster warm the milk up a little bit. Just above room temp - not high enough to kill anything.



Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 12, 2010, 01:16:34 AM
So this stuff is sitting out at room temp for days on end? F-in crazy.

I used to have this cook book from about 1850. It was American and was sort of a country kitchen guide. It was kinda like a fox fire book. Fox Fire books are awesome by the way. This old cook book had a recipe for Milk Beer. I dont have the book anymore but Im sure It was definitely a recipe for this kefir.

How does the first cultures get started? The nomads had to do something to get it going. Did they use animal dung or something?

Is it getting bubbles? Like slightly carbonated?  

I really love learning new stuff like this, the older I get I am running out of new things to discover. Thanks for posting this blue.

I have to try this. Top of my list.

Just ordered some. What are water kefir grains? Obviously I need the milk ones.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41NTUqsN6vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c6GbqGNzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

http://bestscreenwriting.org/alien-nation/alien-nation-text.html



Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 12, 2010, 01:32:56 AM
So this stuff is sitting out at room temp for days on end? F-in crazy.

How does the first cultures get started?

Is it getting bubbles? Like slightly carbonated? 


1)Yep, room temp for 24 hours It doesn't go bad, but once you get your consistency you go to the fridge to slow it down and it tastes better cold. You can leave it forever on the counter, but it separates into like cheese floating on whey. Whey is good for making bread.
2)GOD
3)No bubbles cuz you ferment it covered with a gauze or loose fitting lid.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 12, 2010, 02:01:16 AM
I think I remember seeing years ago in a documentary that these tribal type peoples were inoculating cows milk with a little piece of dried dung.  I think they were Masai.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on October 12, 2010, 02:07:32 AM
OK..gents I did some basic research and found this......................

Kefir is a refreshing cultured-milk beverage which originated in the northern slopes of the Caucasus Mountains, believed to date back at least 1,000 years. The tribes-folk of this particular region who possibly developed kefir by shear accident consumed the nutritious beverage in large quantities. These people were renowned for longevity, living long, healthy lives with little to no known disease. An active life span of over one hundred years was common for folks living in the region where kefir was cultured and liberally consumed as part of a staple diet.

Kefir has a uniform, slightly creamy consistency, a sour refreshing flavour, with a slight subtle aroma of fresh yeast [or a very subtle beer-like aroma]. Kefir also has a slightest hint of a natural effervescent zesty tang. There is an assortment of some 40 aromatic compounds contributing to the unique flavour and distinctive pleasant aroma of kefir. Rounding this off, kefir contains between 0.08% to 2% alcohol. However, about .08 to .1% alcohol is a realistic figure for 1-day cultured kefir. Whereas kefir stored for a number of days after separating the natural mother-culture, kefir grains [see following], contained up to 2% alcohol, and possibly 3% alcohol, depending on the type of milk and ripening conditions. [Yep-- wow!].

Traditional, authentic kefir can only be prepared by culturing fresh milk with Kefir grains. Note that Kefir grains should not be mistaken for cereal grains. The natural mother-culture is referred to as grains due to its granular structure and appearance. This is to say that the grain part of the name can be considered as a misnomer. Kefir grains, or kefir granules if you wish, are in fact a natural-starter. The biological structure or each grain [which I feel can be referred to as a bio-matrix] is created through a dynamic association symbiosis between a vast mixture of friendly Lactic acid bacteria [LAB], vinegar-producing bacteria and yeasts strains.

Sounds like this guy DOM is the kefir guru....here's his website.

Fermented milk... :-\

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#what-is-kefir
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on October 12, 2010, 02:23:05 AM
(http://fortysixthstarpress.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/pw_gotmilk01.jpg)

Had to say it.  ;D
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 12, 2010, 02:40:37 AM
I am Jacks raging curiosity.

So the Caucus mountains,these people are Georgians I think?  Are they the forebears of Caucasian peoples?

(http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Sarah/harvey-milk-castro-street)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 12, 2010, 03:15:34 AM
Water kefir grains are for making kombucha like drinks. Fermented juices, sugar water, etc...
You can convert the milk grains to water grains once they have multiplied, you just wean them off milk and onto juice.
Was that Amazon or ebay you ordered off of?
It will smell NASTY when it gets to you, make a batch and dump it, start drinking on the second batch.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 12, 2010, 05:01:17 AM
Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Kefir-KEFIR-GRAINS-ORGANIC/dp/B000ZTG4UG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286858188&sr=8-1

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir_cheese.html

Ill get the milk here. http://hiddentrenton.com/?p=54 Not organic but really fresh.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on October 12, 2010, 05:38:58 AM
*Shudder*

Naw it makes perfect sense. The situation: you got lots of milk coming, too warm to make and store good cheese. So you ferment it and drink it. Basically yogurt but evidently "beneficial".

Have to think about this one. Not much of a milk drinker though I'm not LI. Not all that eager to go rushing off to incorporate it into my lifestyle. I need more info on flavor and consistency.

Meanwhile think about chicha or pulque if you want strange fermented beverages.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 12, 2010, 06:13:51 AM
I love kefir.  We buy it at the store, I don't know if it's the real thing or not but it's delicious.  I've considered making it, but I don't even play around with the ginger beer plant that I have.   :-\
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 12, 2010, 11:40:05 AM
I love kefir.  We buy it at the store, I don't know if it's the real thing or not but it's delicious.  I've considered making it, but I don't even play around with the ginger beer plant that I have.   :-\

How different is that from a kombucha mushroom, or scoby or whatever you want to call it? I grew one from a bottle of Dave'sGT.  Funny, I think we use these different names for the colonies of "bugs" to make it less gross mentally.  ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 12, 2010, 04:02:11 PM
I love kefir.  We buy it at the store, I don't know if it's the real thing or not but it's delicious.  I've considered making it, but I don't even play around with the ginger beer plant that I have.   :-\

How different is that from a kombucha mushroom, or scoby or whatever you want to call it? I grew one from a bottle of Dave'sGT.  Funny, I think we use these different names for the colonies of "bugs" to make it less gross mentally.  ;)
GBP is more similar to tibicos from what I've been told, but it is a distinct scoby.  It makes a really nice drink, but it's another one of those things that you can't make yourself, you have to get some from someone else.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 12, 2010, 10:20:14 PM
I heard that if you drink Kombucha that your penis could get smaller, you boobs could grow bigger and your voice will start getting higher.

I just cant afford it.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 12, 2010, 11:00:54 PM
I heard that if you drink Kombucha that your penis could get smaller, you boobs could grow bigger and your voice will start getting higher.

I just cant afford it.

Only thing that would bug me is the high voice. So you really got no margin in the other two areas -
even to try it.  :o ;D
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 13, 2010, 01:47:42 AM
Ordered some vinegar mother too.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on October 13, 2010, 01:55:43 AM
Ordered some vinegar mother too.

I think we created a monster.   ::)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 13, 2010, 01:58:40 AM
I want to get some of this going this winter, I might as well ferment other stuff, maybe charcuterie too.

I dont get to brew enough cause truth is, I dont drink that much. How do some of you guys consume all of the beer you brew?

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 13, 2010, 02:06:10 AM
2 a day, is more than a batch a month. Or you drink one, your wife, and a half pint for the kid. You should be brewing every 6-8 weeks at a minimum. You want to brew but it would ruin your image as resident chef here.  ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 13, 2010, 02:07:41 AM
Ordered some vinegar mother too.

How's that different from the gunk at the bottom of that oh-so-famous apple cider vinegar?
Oh, and don't forget to get your sourdough starter going now too, since you're going overboard.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 13, 2010, 02:31:12 AM
Im sorry, I did order the vinegar. It has the mother in it. Braggs is the brand. Threw it in with my order for the kifir grains. In Slovakian its called kefirova  ;D only kidding Its kifir pronounced (Kay-fur slight roll on the r)

I started out brewing once or twice a month but it has slowed way down. I cant drink only two a day once I drink one I have to have two then three then four. I dont even get started but for maybe a Saturday night every now and again. The wife gets drunk on 4 oz of beer. I would venture to say that most guest dont drink much either.

I really need to set up a cooler and keg system. Bottles blow, give beers away and you never see the bottles again. 

One of the guys who's brew gear Im working on brews at least one batch a week. He bottles and also gives most of it away. He buys his bottles too. Must be nice.

Some of us here are brewing a LOT of beer. They are either drinking a lot more than 2 a day or they have a lot of happy friends.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on October 13, 2010, 05:47:55 AM
I drink 4 or 5 pints a night. Sometimes I have to drink the entire 12 gallons without sharing. ;D Gets a little tedious sometimes. Thinking of going to much smaller batches. It's easier to drink a case of beer that is never going to be any better than "OK" and adjust the recipe with another batch.

Seems to me cap you could craft some awesome beer in small batches just like any other of these things. You just don't have to alk it out like me.  ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 13, 2010, 06:57:57 AM
It's definitely a challenge to get through all of the beer I make, but I have friends who like it a lot so that helps.

In line with what euge was saying cap, you should think about doing some 1-gallon batches.  It's still a lot of fun, and everything boils and chills faster.  Plus there's less beer to drink.  The carboys are cheaper too :)  You can build yourself an entire all-grain 1 gallon setup for under $20, assuming you have a standard kitchen equipment.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on October 13, 2010, 07:34:59 AM
I agree. And it's what I'm considering. Brewing that way in that volume is as simple as anything else- a pot of soup really. Already have the patience for fermentation and conditioning.

For me it's gonna be a study. I've done a lot of bulk brewing but now I want to hone down some of these recipes and get into a rhythm.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 13, 2010, 07:47:54 AM
Yeah, the only problem is one gallon isn't that much reward for the work.  2.5 gallons is still a manageable amount of beer to brew and drink and it allows for experimentation, not to mention you can easily (but not cheaply) get kegs for that size batch.  The 10 gallons I often brew is really too much for most of the beers I do.  For some though, it's not enough :)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 13, 2010, 10:56:07 AM
So did everyone go big for economy of scale? Cost of yeast, time invested, etc...
And cap - you're gonna have to keep those grains going - how are you going to consume all that kefir? Same problem as your beer really. Supply will totally outweigh demand - that's why I quit making it.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 13, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
I picked up a used 3-tier converted keg system as my first all-grain setup.  It works well for 5 or 10 gallon batches, as long as the gravity isn't too low (for 5) and too high (for 10).  I normally do 10 because I don't get to brew as often as I'd like, it's hard to find 6 straight hours to myself on a regular basis.  But when my wife takes the kids out of town for the weekend I might brew 20-30 gallons, so that on top of what I can normally squeeze in means sometimes I'm overflowing with beer.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on October 13, 2010, 04:51:05 PM
How do some of you guys consume all of the beer you brew?

Well you need to come over and I'll show you.  8)

It's easy.  ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 13, 2010, 11:29:14 PM
I may have to take you up on that demonstration. Soon.

I thought I was reading in one of the articles posted about a way to store the grains if you are not using them to make kefir.

I think it is pretty easy to keep a vinegar mother around.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 13, 2010, 11:46:41 PM
I thought I was reading in one of the articles posted about a way to store the grains if you are not using them to make kefir.

Put em in the fridge. It's pretty complicated.  :)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 14, 2010, 01:51:05 AM
I Cant wait for the grains. Its gonna be a few days.

So throw the first batch out? How big should that first batch be?

Once our radiators start getting warm Ill start making some yogurt too. 
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 14, 2010, 01:51:50 AM
I want to get some of this going this winter, I might as well ferment other stuff, maybe charcuterie too.

I dont get to brew enough cause truth is, I dont drink that much. How do some of you guys consume all of the beer you brew?

This.

I drank enough to puke once, last time I wanted to see what would happen if I drank a lot.  (Answer:  I puked.)

Normally I don't drink much at all.  I have Dow's Tawny Port here, 2/3 full that I opened SUNDAY.

Cap, move into an apartment.  Then you can bang on random neighbors' doors with 5 gallons of beer in tow.  "I heard there was a party here."  ".... uh.  There is now.  Who are you?"

When I got the "Organic" ones they wouldn't revive.  The other ones I got came from a Kefir enthusiast (he ships a bunch of literature with the amazon order) and worked out.  I let them sit too long in the last batch of milk and just had to wash a bunch of cottage cheese off the grains ~_~  But holy crap I have like a tablespoon of grains in there.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 14, 2010, 02:04:13 AM
Hmm, I thought I got the same ones you did from the Real man Genius. Oh well. Ill try these first.

I only puked a few times from drinking.

Years ago I was a professional drinker. That is to say I was a bartender at a jazz club. Drank all night at the bar till closing (barely catching a buz) then cllosed up at two AM only to go out to after hours places and drink for another few hours.
It was hard not to drink at that bar cause the owner would come in and say "Hey Bill, lets get F--ked up!" No portion control at that place I can tell ya.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 14, 2010, 02:14:30 AM
I Cant wait for the grains. Its gonna be a few days.

So throw the first batch out? How big should that first batch be?

Once our radiators start getting warm Ill start making some yogurt too. 

The first batch I'd guess is gonna be somewhere along the lines of new shower curtain / acetone - with maybe a new trojan thrown in there for good measure. It wouldn't hurt you to drink it but it probably wouldn't be pleasant. I just use a collander or steamer to separate the two. Dump the grains back into the fermenter and start again. 1tsp grains is for half to 3/4 cup. They will grow - your batches will grow; when the batches get to the right size you gotta start taking away grains - cuz they keep growing. You try to keep your 24 hour cycle going.
Oh and "age" the kefir another day after you separate it from the grains. It's just better. I put it in the fridge overnight, and usually make smoothies the next day with it. (when I used to do it)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 14, 2010, 02:37:20 AM
Hmm, I thought I got the same ones you did from the Real man Genius. Oh well. Ill try these first.

Yeah, that's what I got.  There's a set on there cheap that says "ORGANIC KEFIR GRAINS!!!!" and all and they're rarely alive; but the ones from RMG were minimal (seriously, dust sized man) but they grew RAPIDLY.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 20, 2010, 02:32:45 AM
Got my kefir grains and started them "healing".

Here is what they looked like when they arrived.

(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/capozzoli_2008/DSC08462.jpg)

Put them into a a ball jar and started them in some milk that was warmed to room temp. I have about ten parts milk to one part kefir grains.

(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/capozzoli_2008/DSC08463.jpg)

(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/capozzoli_2008/DSC08464.jpg)

MMM fermented slightly alcholic milk. How exciting is that?

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 20, 2010, 02:36:31 AM
Yeah, I was totally wrong. These pictures ARE exciting.  :-*
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 20, 2010, 02:39:37 AM
Give it time, they will get bigger and that is when the real excitement will start.

What will happen if I use heavy cream?

(http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kef/flat-kg1.jpg)

I was just reading about how the Georgian peoples who invented this method would secondary ferment and even age the kefir beverage.  While being stored in this second fermentation they would seal the lid. So it would get effervescent and slightly carbonated.

I wonder if it could be bottled with a little sugar for some kind of bottle conditioning? 
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tygo on October 20, 2010, 03:15:46 AM
Echoing MrNate's sentiments from another thread, there are too many new things that people post on this forum that I want to try.  Luckily for me, this is not one of them.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 20, 2010, 11:07:55 PM
Why not?

Its fun and its edible microbiology! Kinda like sea monkeys.

(http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kef/KG-growthstruct.jpg)

And the health benefits are seemingly endless.

http://www.yourkefirsource.com/kefir-benefits/kefir-health-benefits

Looks like the ones I have are starting to wake up.

(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/capozzoli_2008/DSC08492.jpg)

It has a pleasant yeasty smell, kinda like bread or beer. Cant think of how to describe it.

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tygo on October 21, 2010, 02:06:37 AM
That's just it.  Too healthy for me.  Now if the alcohol content of the yogurt-milk was somewhere in the 5+% range maybe I'd be tempted.   ;D
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: abraxas on October 21, 2010, 10:35:22 AM
I used to make kefir, just sort of lost interest, think I'll order a new culture though...  It's great for lactose intolerance, something in the kefir eats the lactose.  Watch sealing the containter for too long, I came home to a cracked glass bottle when I would naturally carb it.  You'll get to know you're culture.

It won't grow in size but kefir grains can be used to ferment other things to add a twist to a beer or cider.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on October 21, 2010, 04:37:08 PM
I'm not all that eager to try this though I will eat the hell out of some moldy stinky cheese.  ???

Thinking about the anecdotal health benefits and their citing the longevity of Caucasus peoples; I'm more inclined to believe they benefit from a diet extremely low in processed foods and that they probably walk(ed) everywhere.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 21, 2010, 07:04:07 PM
My brother who works for one of the pharmaceutical companies told me that they are looking hard at the organisms in kefir. They are thinking about drugs to replenish healthy bacteria in the body that gets killed off in people that are taking heavy doses of antibiotics. Antibiotics kill everything even the natural healthy flora in the body.

Thats pretty interesting.

Did you read all of the claims, some of them say "cures".
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 21, 2010, 07:09:25 PM
My brother who works for one of the pharmaceutical companies told me that they are looking hard at the organisms in kefir. They are thinking about drugs to replenish healthy bacteria in the body that gets killed off in people that are taking heavy doses of antibiotics. Antibiotics kill everything even the natural healthy flora in the body.

Thats pretty interesting.
Really, drugs to help replenish the healthy bacteria?  Why not just feed the people kefir and yogurt?  That's what I do when I'm on antibiotics, it helps with some of the digestion side effects I get. :)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 21, 2010, 07:27:17 PM
Makes sense to me. Guess they want to make pills.

Who knows it was one of those "I remember" things. He brought up the story when I showed him the little buggers. Apparently they are pretty unique or something.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 22, 2010, 12:36:14 AM
Makes sense to me. Guess they want to make pills.

HMO's don't pay for yogurt and kefir - they pay for pills. No one wants you to be healthy - where's the money in that?

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: abraxas on October 22, 2010, 02:12:20 AM
My brother who works for one of the pharmaceutical companies told me that they are looking hard at the organisms in kefir. They are thinking about drugs to replenish healthy bacteria in the body that gets killed off in people that are taking heavy doses of antibiotics. Antibiotics kill everything even the natural healthy flora in the body.

Thats pretty interesting.

Did you read all of the claims, some of them say "cures".

This article is about Kombucha, but in many ways it's similar to kefir:
http://www.fungi.com/info/articles/blob.html

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: beerocd on October 22, 2010, 03:07:35 AM
So, it's like this. Say you make a life changing decision to start p90x. There's a meal program with that. So you exercise and exercise - and you've changed your eating habit too. You still blame p90x for the miracle change. Same when people decide to go organic, or start some other "alternative" wholistic magical diet including kombucha, kefir, raw diet, atkins, whatever. Usually there's more than just the one change and it's usually for the positive. All diets work - but are they sustainable.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 22, 2010, 11:30:06 PM
So now over the last twenty four hour period I got a half cup of milk to ferment to the point were it was thick. So thick that it would really move when the jar was shaken.

How much milk can I go up to now? A cup?  

It tastes very agreeable. Similar to yogurt but perhaps more sour with a little bit of a yeast flavor and bouquet. I dont detect any alcohol at all.

This batch went twenty four hours? I guess I could let it go a few days?

Its good stuff.

How big do I have to grow the kefir grains before I can try to convert them to water kefir grains? I want to make some apple cider kefir. Coconut milk kefir???

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/K%C3%A9fir-mr.lex-grains_eau.jpg)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibicos

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluefoxicy on October 31, 2010, 02:39:00 AM
It tastes very agreeable. Similar to yogurt but perhaps more sour with a little bit of a yeast flavor and bouquet. I dont detect any alcohol at all.

This batch went twenty four hours? I guess I could let it go a few days?

Don't go "A few days," it'll solidify.

Mine manages 2 days at room temp, and if it solidifies I shake it and it liquefies.  In an earlier stage, if it solidified I got cottage cheese (had to WASH it off the kefir grains to recover them, it was HARD!).  So this is different.

Yeah, it's like sour runny yogurt with a slightly different flavor.  Took me a few drinks to recognize the stuff as more than sour milk.  I bought some store-bought kefir which was similar and opened up my palate; this stuff tastes like a GOOD version of that, with more complex backing flavors but essentially the same base.

I'm gonna move up to 1qt mason jars for my batches.  I drink a lot of lassi, but this stuff is good and easier to make.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 31, 2010, 01:16:46 PM
I did let a batch go a few days and it did solidify.  It also separated from the whey slightly. I just poured it into the strainer and then agitated it till the kefir dropped through leaving behind the grains.

With the longer ferment it had much more pronounced flavors. It definitely had notes of alcohol, it was more sour and it had a hint of "cheese flavor" which the whole family found undesirable.

Ill stick to the over nights. We are using raw milk and by the morning it is completely solidified and has a half inch of fermented yellow cream on top.

Im gonna say that none of us like the flavor, ts not bad just that I wouldn't seek it out. the little one will drink it with fruit mixed in. We just down our portions for nutritional reasons not taste.

Soon my radiators will come on and I will begin making yogurt. I use that mostly for making Indian food. I add lots of powdered milk to the milk before I make yogurt and the finished product comes out very thick. Great for thickening sauces.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on October 31, 2010, 06:30:58 PM
I just bought some when at the fancy-store yesterday. Actually, I think this brand is at my local too.

http://www.lifeway.net/Home.aspx (http://www.lifeway.net/Home.aspx) I got the "strawberry-banana"... It tastes good. Like yogurt- maybe a little more acidic?
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on October 31, 2010, 09:19:32 PM
I have had a few different brands of store bought. We got one the other day. It isnt the same. The store bought is much more like yogurt.

To get the real deal you have to make it. Also you will get more of the "good" bacteria if you make it yourself, or so I am told.

I would be willing to send some grains to anyone if interested. I think they are pretty stable to ship a couple of days. The ones I got arrived in a zip lock bag.

I suppose I have to wait a little while till they get a bit bigger and start to multiply.

I want to try the kambocha too. Anyone doing that? Wanna trade some kefir grains for some kambocha mushroom, or whatever it is called.

Is there a kambocha thread. At the Russian store I go to they call kambocha kvass for some reason.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 01, 2010, 05:58:27 AM
I would be willing to send some grains to anyone if interested. I think they are pretty stable to ship a couple of days. The ones I got arrived in a zip lock bag.

I suppose I have to wait a little while till they get a bit bigger and start to multiply.

I want to try the kambocha too. Anyone doing that? Wanna trade some kefir grains for some kambocha mushroom, or whatever it is called.
I can trade you some ginger beer plant if you're interested . . .  :)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 01, 2010, 11:15:11 AM
Yeah man, Ill trade for some ginger beer plant. May be a stupid question but what is ginger beer plant, ginger?

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 01, 2010, 04:19:17 PM
No, it's another scoby.  Similar to tibicos from what I've been told, but different organisms.

From wikipedia
Quote
Ginger beer plant

Ginger beer plant (GBP) is not what is usually considered a plant, but a composite organism consisting of a fungus, the yeast Saccharomyces florentinus (formerly Saccharomyces pyriformis) and the bacterium Lactobacillus hilgardii (formerly Brevibacterium vermiforme),[3][4] which form a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast (SCOBY). It forms a gelatinous substance that allows it to be easily transferred from one fermenting substrate to the next, much like kefir grains and tibicos.[5]

The GBP was first described by Harry Marshall Ward in 1892, from samples he received in 1887.[4][6][7][8] Original ginger beer is made by leaving water, sugar, ginger, and GBP to ferment. GBP may be obtained from several commercial sources or from yeast banks[9]. Much of the "ginger beer plant" obtainable from commercial sources is not the true GBP as described here, but instead is yeast alone. This is not legally false advertising because there is no regulation defining GBP.

I got mine from Raj Apte, so it is the real thing.  If you want some let me know, I'll need to make sure it is still viable . . . :)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 01, 2010, 09:18:58 PM
Wow, thats awesome.So it makes like a Ginger Ale? I would love some of that.

Would you really want some kefir grains? They are probably good, now fed on raw milk. They are not that big yet. Might need to wait a little while I think?

How much would I need to send for someone to get started?
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 01, 2010, 10:12:29 PM
Wow, thats awesome.So it makes like a Ginger Ale? I would love some of that.

Would you really want some kefir grains? They are probably good, now fed on raw milk. They are not that big yet. Might need to wait a little while I think?

How much would I need to send for someone to get started?
It's not quite the same as ginger ale, although it depends a lot on your recipe.  It tends to have more sourness than typical store-bought ginger ale though.

I actually am interested in making kefir.  I don't know how much I'd need to get started, but you let it grow until you're comfortable sending me some, and I'll see how the GBP is doing.  I'm not in any rush, I've got more than enough projects going on right now :)

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 02, 2010, 01:56:17 AM
With a little research I found it should be a few weeks before I can break some off to send. Im looking forward to it cause it would be great if the transfer were successful even though Im sure it will be,

Interesting about the Ginger Beer plant. Im sure this is something I would like. I love ginger.

Dont worry about kefir taking any of your time, it wont. Only the time it takes to strain a cup of Kefir and then refill the container with milk. Honest, it takes all of five mins,per day.

Once you get to the daily amount of kefir you want ya just trim up your grains so they dont crowd. 
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: euge on November 02, 2010, 05:21:12 AM
My understanding is that you can create the ginger plant yourself by soaking shredded ginger in a bowl for several days and letting it ferment on it's own. Or something like that.

As far as Kefir goes I've had two small portions- about half a cup the last two mornings. The results today were "interesting" to say the least. Or I hope it is the Kefir...

Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 02, 2010, 06:50:44 AM
No, you can't create a ginger beer plant.  What you're describing is called a sludge brew, where you're culturing the stuff that is present on the ginger.  It is not the same as GBP.   ;)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 05, 2010, 01:24:33 AM
I dont seem to notice much growth in my kefir grains. They have definitely "puff up" a bit. More like little cauliflower. Maybe they just need a little more time.

Maybe when beerocd pops back in he can fill us in on how much to send.

I did an interesting thing with the kefir last night. In two cups of kefir I added two teaspoons of sugar. I then sealed a lid on it and let it sit over night.

Today I took it out and then poured it into a bowl, I whipped it vigorously for a few moments with a whisk, it nearly doubled in volume as I incorporated air.  I also added a little more sugar and some vanilla extract.

It remained whipped and had a thick foamy head. Very refreshing and slightly carbonated.

Its easy to make this stuff very enjoyable.

Im also sure there is a way to carbonated this.If it will convert sugar and get co2 then it should carbonate.I guess I would just have to calculate somehow how to get enough sugar to carbonate but not get bottle bombs. hmm?

I was thinking of a slightly sweet less viscous carbonated beverage flavored with sugar and vanilla.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 05, 2010, 06:54:35 AM
I don't think I would like it carbonated, but that's me.  I like it sweetened with sugar and flavored with fruit. :)  Maybe try it in a blender with some frozen strawberries or mango.  Or blueberries.   ;D
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 05, 2010, 09:36:32 PM
Try this though. Take some chilled kefir (Im guessing store bought will react the same) pour it in a bowl and beat some air into it with a whisk. It may take a moment but you will see the volume increase. Then sweeten with sugar and add a touch of vanilla extract. Beat more air into it, pour it into a cup and drink it with a straw.

Really nice. Creamy and light, not quite carbonated but sort of effervescent.

This is a common way of preparing kefir for drinking in Georgia and all over that part of the world. They dont use a whisk but they use a similar tool that they roll between their hands like Mexicans whisk Chocolata.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 05, 2010, 10:08:21 PM
Are you talking plain kefir?  I typically buy it with the fruit already in it.  I'll have to get some of the plain stuff and give it a try.  They sell a vanilla kind too.

Although I usually mix about 1/2 kefir with 1/2 milk to thin it out and drink that.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: bluesman on November 05, 2010, 10:58:23 PM
Try this though. Take some chilled kefir (Im guessing store bought will react the same) pour it in a bowl and beat some air into it with a whisk. It may take a moment but you will see the volume increase. Then sweeten with sugar and add a touch of vanilla extract. Beat more air into it, pour it into a cup and drink it with a straw. 

That sounds good. How about a shot of rum and some coconut milk to top it off.  8)
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tygo on November 06, 2010, 01:07:07 AM
Try this though. Take some chilled kefir (Im guessing store bought will react the same) pour it in a bowl and beat some air into it with a whisk. It may take a moment but you will see the volume increase. Then sweeten with sugar and add a touch of vanilla extract. Beat more air into it, pour it into a cup and drink it with a straw.  

That sounds good. How about a shot of rum and some coconut milk to top it off.  8)

Throw some bananas and bailey's irish cream in there and you've got a Kefir BBC (Bailey's banana colada).  
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 06, 2010, 01:45:11 AM
Im thinking that adding fruit or using kefir with fruit in it may prevent the frothing. Something that forms in the kefir creates ideal cell wall structure for bubbles. Just a theory but particulate and added density from fruit may prevent the ideal bubbles from forming.

Its really cool how it holds the the frothy bubbles. I poured some of the vanilla frothed kefir into a cup last night then put it back in the fridge. It  set up to the point where it could be eaten with a spoon and the bubbles remained  suspended. This would make a great topping for fruit.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 06, 2010, 06:14:17 AM
I've heard somewhere around here though, that the store bought stuff is not true kefir, so maybe it wouldn't happen.  I've got to get some of the plain stuff from the store and try it out.
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 06, 2010, 02:02:44 PM
I was the one that said it might not be the same. I had store bought a long time ago and I think it is different. Im not sure though I know my home made yogurt is way better than store bought.

Im just going the assumption that homemade is always better. Maybe it will work with store bought.

Whatever the 'slimy' type stuff that is in kefir that makes it hold the bubbles so well is in a much higher concentration in Villi.

(http://www.eatingoffthefoodgrid.com/a/kefiili2.png)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viili

 
Title: Re: Milk?
Post by: capozzoli on November 07, 2010, 06:52:52 PM
Got another order of raw milk, gonna put the kefir grains to goats milk tonight see what we come up with there,Ill bet it will be strong.

(http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll294/capozzoli_2008/DSC08979.jpg)

Also making some homemade paneer cheese for tonight's lasagna.

Im wondering what kind of cheese curd that the kefir would yeild? But the pro-biotic benefits in kefir would be killed by heat. I think?

Im gonna try to make paneer from yogurt and kefir.

Soon Im gonna try to build some kind of rig like tubercle's. So many things to make, so little time.