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Other than Brewing => All Things Food => Topic started by: MrNate on October 15, 2010, 03:48:39 PM

Title: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on October 15, 2010, 03:48:39 PM
Not having the luxury of an outdoor brick oven like SOME people, it's been 6 months since I could even think about baking.

I just pulled the sponge out of the fridge and am attempting to re-animate it. It had what looked like vinegar mother sitting on top, so I poured that off, warmed it up and fed it. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on October 15, 2010, 05:51:33 PM
Good luck!

I have something similar in my fridge. I need to wake it.  :o
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tumarkin on October 15, 2010, 06:03:03 PM
Good luck!

I have something similar in my fridge. I need to wake it.  :o

damn, I must be growing up (or at least older). I can remember a time when I opened my fridge carefully in fear of waking some of the life forms in there.  :D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on October 15, 2010, 07:04:35 PM
It's a-bubblin!  ;D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on October 19, 2010, 07:09:16 PM
First loaf is rising... Sourdough takes some planning! I just couldn't find the time until today.

I'll snap a picture tonight - hopefully of a risen loaf.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on October 19, 2010, 09:07:03 PM
Jeff Renner has some great sourdough info here...

http://aabg.org/2010/01/21/sourdough-starter-instructions/#more-334
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on October 19, 2010, 09:22:27 PM
Is there anything Jeff Renner can't ferment?

Honestly, I had no idea how to do this a few months back when I started, so I just ran my usual sour mash and made my starter from that. Seems to work pretty well, but I'm having trouble getting the sour/rise balance worked out correctly. I consulted Ye Olde Internetz and found this page, which seems to indicate that a much longer rise time is needed to fully develop both: http://sourdoughhome.com/sfsd1.html

So I'm trying this recipe out this time around and we shall see.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: roguejim on November 08, 2010, 10:31:09 PM
Is there a standard bread book to buy for the aspiring bread baker, you know, the one that every baker must have?

I know nothing of the bread baking process, so I need to start at ground zero.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: ryang on November 09, 2010, 04:44:38 AM
Out of many bread books we own, this by far takes the cake.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SBam5Z8gL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/My-Bread-Revolutionary-No-Work-No-Knead/dp/0393066304

This method is incredibly simple and makes fantastic bread.  I love it!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: punatic on November 09, 2010, 06:16:24 AM
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/452327909_8bf86f452c.jpg?v=0)

I've been working out of this book for 20+ years.  As good a bread book as I've found anywhere. (I may be a bit biased cause the author used to live here in Hilo)

These days I mostly just look up recipes for special occasions.  My favs from this book were committed to memory decades ago.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 09, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
I've been baking bread for the last 5-6 years, but I'm still working on perfecting my sourdough baguette.  Maybe once I do that, I'll get a book to help move on to other styles.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 09, 2010, 10:03:44 PM
I'm on my 3rd sourdough attempt this year, getting ready for the fourth. I've been making round loaves using the recipe in the link I posted above, but with all white bread flour. Rise for ~12hr, punch down, make 2 loaves, rise for another ~6hr and bake with steam and an egg wash.

The last attempt came out really good.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 02:03:42 AM
One thing that really improved mine was to start adding 1-2 Tbsp. of vital wheat gluten per batch.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 10, 2010, 03:04:24 AM
What did the gluten do for it?
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 10, 2010, 06:32:52 AM
Mainly, gluten helps hold in the co2 cause the dough is stretchier, resulting in a better spring in the oven and a better crumb.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 08:10:19 AM
So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  :-\
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 10, 2010, 08:33:41 AM
So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  :-\

It helps any risen bread. Doesn't mean you have to use it though. With a mature active poolish you can create extra gluten. But try the gluten and don't proof for so long. Punch it down sooner if you need to.

I like to take the dough to just short of "jiggly" if that makes sense.  :D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 08:36:04 AM
So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  :-\

It helps any risen bread. Doesn't mean you have to use it though. With a mature active poolish you can create extra gluten. But try the gluten and don't proof for so long. Punch it down sooner if you need to.

I like to take the dough to just short of "jiggly" if that makes sense.  :D
Well, I've tossed the culture anyway - it felt like I was wasting too much flour and not getting enough bread out of it.  I might start it up again some day.  Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 10, 2010, 02:04:26 PM
Mainly, gluten helps hold in the co2 cause the dough is stretchier, resulting in a better spring in the oven and a better crumb.

Ok, dumb question time - What's "crumb" and how much oven spring should I be getting?
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 04:20:09 PM
What did the gluten do for it?

It really helped the hole structure in the bread, and as Euge mentioned the overall texture.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 04:21:17 PM
So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  :-\

Tom, I think it helps any bread, sourdough or not.  I started using it before I went to sourdough, and it really helped even the regular yeast breads.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 10, 2010, 04:57:04 PM
Are you guys using AP flour and adding gluten or adding gluten on top of using bread flour?
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 04:59:36 PM
So adding gluten might have helped my sourdough?  The dough seemed fine, but by the time it went through its rises it was kind of soggy didn't rise well.  It seemed like it was breaking down.  Maybe it was over-proofed, but it didn't really act like my normal bread doughs so I don't know.  :-\

Tom, I think it helps any bread, sourdough or not.  I started using it before I went to sourdough, and it really helped even the regular yeast breads.
Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread :)

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 10, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
I think my wife bought some gluten at the grocery store when she was on her bread machine kick, but I got a sack of bread flour from Costco that I'd been using... I was definitely under the impression that it was one or the other. Definitely curious to hear the answer.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: EHall on November 10, 2010, 05:25:00 PM
If you choose the right flour to begin with you don't need to add the extra gluten... King Arthur is a great place to start to find the right one. They also have alot of cool stuff that can be used in brewing...
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 06:03:40 PM
Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread :)

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.

I use King Arthur bread flour, which is a high protein flour.  If I could find it easily, I'd use their bread machine flour, which is even higher in protein.  It works really well, but I got even better results by adding the vital wheat gluten.  BTW, I use Bob's Red Mill for that.  You can find both the KA bread flour and the Bob's VWG at Fred Meyer.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 06:12:31 PM
Are you already using bread/high gluten flour and adding it to that?  Is this something they should have at a regular grocery store or do I need to head to Whole Foods or PCC?  It's definitely time to make some bread :)

<edit> MrNate posted first, but I have the same question about the flour.

I use King Arthur bread flour, which is a high protein flour.  If I could find it easily, I'd use their bread machine flour, which is even higher in protein.  It works really well, but I got even better results by adding the vital wheat gluten.  BTW, I use Bob's Red Mill for that.  You can find both the KA bread flour and the Bob's VWG at Fred Meyer.
Thanks Denny, I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 10, 2010, 06:31:06 PM
I like the King Arthur too. Supposedly bread flour doesn't need extra gluten but it doesn't hurt to add some anyway IMO.

As Denny pointed out "crumb" is texture. I shoot for lots of big holes and firm cohesive texture. All purpose flour will result in a fragile crumb unless you really work it or add gluten. If you want more of a "wonder bread" type of crumb then don't let it proof for as long and don't make a poolish. You want a quick rise and a drier dough.

Oven spring... I want as much as I can get LOL. Gluten helps keep in the co2 which will expand in the oven blowing up the dough even more before it sets. This is where it can get tricky. Proof too long and it'll collapse in the oven or when you handle it. If you don't slash your dough deep enough it'll retard the spring and maybe rip your loaf open since the outside cooks before the inside creating a type of shell that compresses the expanding dough inside.

Baguettes work well because they can expand more fully before the exterior crust becomes rigid. Conversely, a big loaf has a lot of mass so in cross section you'll see fine bubbles in the center and outwardly they'll get bigger. The loaf won't spring effectively and maybe even rip.

I shoot for a dough that is very elastic and fairly sticky. If it can be handled easily without extra flour then it's probably too dry and will result in a denser loaf.

It's like brewing. One's technique matters and I only covered part of it.





Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 06:36:02 PM
I like the King Arthur too. Supposedly bread flour doesn't need extra gluten but it doesn't hurt to add some anyway IMO.

All I can say is that it made a BIG difference for me.

I shoot for a dough that is very elastic and fairly sticky. If it can be handled easily without extra flour then it's probably too dry and will result in a denser loaf.

It's like brewing. One's technique matters and I only covered part of it.

That's exactly what I learned about dough texture through trial and error.  For the first year or so I was baking bread, the dough was too dry and I couldn't get the texture I was after.  Then I accidentally got it wetter than normal one time and ended up with exactly what I was going for.  And it is a lot like brewing...it takes some time and experience to really learn what techniques produce what results.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 07:03:36 PM
I'll try wetter and gluten. :)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: bluesman on November 10, 2010, 08:46:36 PM
The King Arthur Bread Flour works great for pizza dough and with the addition of VWG , I think there's a better rise to the dough.
Plus the texture of the crust is much better.
I want to try some sourdough using KA flour.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: morticaixavier on November 10, 2010, 11:59:40 PM
The King Arthur Bread Flour works great for pizza dough and with the addition of VWG , I think there's a better rise to the dough.
Plus the texture of the crust is much better.
I want to try some sourdough using KA flour.

I grew up in VT and never knew there was any other kind of flour besides King Arthur (sort of) but it is great in everything. I have done sourdough with it and it was great. I just used the AP which is fortified with some malted barley etc.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 12, 2010, 06:15:10 PM
I baked a loaf yesterday after picking up some gluten, but I ended up not using it.  My standard recipe uses 50/50 bread/AP flour, so I upped it to 75/25 bread/AP to see what happened.  It came out much chewier than usual, not to the point of being bad but not the way my family likes it, so I'll probably go back to 50/50 and won't use gluten.

That being said, I want to add some whole wheat flour to the recipe, maybe even a lot of whole wheat flour.  I imagine swapping out some or all of the AP flour and adding some gluten will help.  Someone around here must have experience with this . . .
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 12, 2010, 06:28:18 PM
Around here, chewy is the Holy Grail of bread!  But it's good to know what you like and how to achieve it.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 12, 2010, 06:38:04 PM
Around here, chewy is the Holy Grail of bread!  But it's good to know what you like and how to achieve it.
That recipe is plenty chewy at 50/50 and with the method I use (food processor with a dough blade, kneaded, two rises).  Although I make an English muffin bread too that is much more crumby/less chewy, and that is very popular.  Damn, now I'm hungry for some bread. :)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 12, 2010, 07:48:55 PM
I used a food processor for the first few years, but it's all by hand now.  I found that for me it works just as well and there's less cleanup.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 12, 2010, 07:57:57 PM
My mother used to make that crumbly bread. I don't think she intended it to come out that way but it always did. Taste was great but made for terrible sandwiches. Fall apart in your hands. Toasted up fantastically and was hearty with breakfast- dunking in egg etc...

I use food processor too. My eye is on a stand mixer.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: punatic on November 12, 2010, 08:19:45 PM
My wife gave me a KitchenAid mixer the first Christmas we were married.  That dough hook is worth its weight in gold.  13 years and thousands of loaves (and tons of sausage) later that mixer is still running like new.

That was the Christmas I gave her a set of Wusthof knives.  Man was that a good idea too. An artist needs good tools... but I think there's another thread out there about that.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 12, 2010, 09:45:28 PM
I have the kitchenaid, but the dough hook gets all bent up with bread dough. I've just been using the regular mixing blade to mix everything up and then kneading.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: morticaixavier on November 12, 2010, 10:27:51 PM
I have the kitchenaid, but the dough hook gets all bent up with bread dough. I've just been using the regular mixing blade to mix everything up and then kneading.

your dough hook actually bends? I have never had that happen. it's quarter inch steel isn't it? oh I guess there are those plastic ones. You can get just the dough hook in the white enamel finish or the plain steel finish I think. or maybe a set of the beater, whisk and dough hook. I start with the dough hook and finish by hand. makes me feel like I am working at it.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 12, 2010, 10:54:34 PM
I just wish my kitchen was big enough to have a place to store a stand mixer!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: morticaixavier on November 12, 2010, 11:30:04 PM
I just wish my kitchen was big enough to have a place to store a stand mixer!

Oh it is so worth the counter space you have to give up! I use mine for bread, pasta, cakes, shredding large quantities of cheese/veg the list goes on. I have a tiny house (less than 500sq feet) but the kitchen is most of that so I guess I don't mind giving up a little. You can even get a grain mill for it although I hear it's not great for brewing grains (To fine a grind, to much damage to the husk)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 12, 2010, 11:38:02 PM
I'd love a stand mixer too, but haven't been able to justify it yet.  It's on sale at costco right now though :)  Still SWMBO is a fan of having the counters clear, and the cabinets are getting pretty full . . .

The food processor works well, and I'd rather spend my time cleaning it (putting it in the dishwasher) than kneading dough forever.  But that's me. ;)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 13, 2010, 02:09:45 AM
I have the kitchenaid, but the dough hook gets all bent up with bread dough. I've just been using the regular mixing blade to mix everything up and then kneading.

your dough hook actually bends? I have never had that happen. it's quarter inch steel isn't it? oh I guess there are those plastic ones. You can get just the dough hook in the white enamel finish or the plain steel finish I think. or maybe a set of the beater, whisk and dough hook. I start with the dough hook and finish by hand. makes me feel like I am working at it.

Mine is the plain aluminum or whatever potmetal it is... Definitely not steel. And yes, it bends. I figure it's more for pastry dough than anything, but I might be wrong.

Anyway, I think I might make some more tonight.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: punatic on November 13, 2010, 08:43:42 AM
I'd love a stand mixer too, but haven't been able to justify it yet.  It's on sale at costco right now though :)  Still SWMBO is a fan of having the counters clear, and the cabinets are getting pretty full . . .

The food processor works well, and I'd rather spend my time cleaning it (putting it in the dishwasher) than kneading dough forever.  But that's me. ;)

I looked at the one on sale at Costco today.  It is the right one to get.  Very sturdy.  The mixing bowl drops down - the head does not pivot up, and it has a 575W motor ( 0.77 HP).

Bending dough hook?  wow... I make some heavy breads with mine, so much so that the motor nearly comes to a stop with the effort.  13 years later the original hook has no bending, no dings in the enamel, still in good shape.  Although the machine tends to "walk" a bit when kneading a dense dough.  If it were Hobart (http://www.skpublicrelations.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/60-quart-hobart-mixer-768x1024.jpg) sized that wouldn't happen.

My wife got me the mixer because she got tired of me beating the she-it out of the dough on the kitchen counter at all hours of the night.  I used to work shift work at a power plant and would make bread when I got home.

She also got me the sausage grinder attachment for the PTO port on the mixer head.  Lucky thing!  Few here in Hawaii know what andouille or boudin is.  I've ground close to a ton of sausage with that machine.  I bought a sturdy microwave table for the mixer to live on.  The accessories live in the shelf space underneath of the microwave table.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: pweis909 on November 13, 2010, 09:39:10 AM
I recently started making sour dough in a bread machine acquired from a second-hand shop.  Don't scoff at that - I'm a sour dough newbie and so far this bread machine thing has been working out for me!  I started a culture using yogurt and flour, so lactobacillus and who-knows-what wild bugs are present.  For the first half dozen or so batches, I didn't trust it to rise on its own so I added commercial yeast to the dough (but not to my culture) and the result was OK - nice texture as far as bread machine bread goes, and a bit of sourdough flavor.  I even made a batch in which I added about half a pack of Danstar Nottingham left over from a bottling operation.  Again, a decent loaf, but nothing special.  But last week I tried 2 loaves using only my culture, no added yeast.  I had great leavening and the flavor was fantastic.  In fact, I'm going to start another loaf right now.  What else to do at 3:30 AM when I can't sleep?  Grade my students lab reports and papers?  Nah.  I'm making bread.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 13, 2010, 03:12:44 PM
Well, you've discovered secret #1 - Never add yeast to sourdough. I did that the first time because that's what all the recipes called for, then I took a leap of faith.

I made dough at 1am, so don't feel alone.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: bluesman on November 13, 2010, 03:30:26 PM
I'd love a stand mixer too, but haven't been able to justify it yet.  It's on sale at costco right now though :)  Still SWMBO is a fan of having the counters clear, and the cabinets are getting pretty full . . .

The food processor works well, and I'd rather spend my time cleaning it (putting it in the dishwasher) than kneading dough forever.  But that's me. ;)

Tom...I have a KA mixer and use it all ther time during cooking/baking season.  It is the bomb-diggity-dogg.  8)

Grant it, they have to be cleaned after each use but they are very easy to clean. This gadget is one of the best investments I have in my kitchen.  If you make your own pizza dough or bread dough frequently, then this gadget is priceless.
They are a little pricey but well worth it IMO.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: punatic on November 13, 2010, 03:57:35 PM
...I have a KA mixer and use it all ther time during cooking/baking season...

Baking season?

Can I be fined for baking out of season?    ;)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: bluesman on November 13, 2010, 04:02:20 PM
...I have a KA mixer and use it all ther time during cooking/baking season...

Baking season?

Can I be fined for baking out of season?    ;)

Depends on what you're baking.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 13, 2010, 05:30:02 PM
Oh it is so worth the counter space you have to give up! I use mine for bread, pasta, cakes, shredding large quantities of cheese/veg the list goes on. I have a tiny house (less than 500sq feet) but the kitchen is most of that so I guess I don't mind giving up a little. You can even get a grain mill for it although I hear it's not great for brewing grains (To fine a grind, to much damage to the husk)

I guarantee you, I've looked at my counter space every which way, and I just can't find a way that a mixer would fit.  Fortunately, there's a remodel on the horizon!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 13, 2010, 06:39:17 PM
If you make your own pizza dough or bread dough frequently, then this gadget is priceless.
They are a little pricey but well worth it IMO.
Some day :)  I've been doing it so long with the food processor I can't say I really need the KA mixer, but it would be great.  Maybe with the holidays coming up I'll find one all wrapped up.  Because then I could get a grinder attachment and do some stuff I can't do with our current gear ;D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: capozzoli on November 13, 2010, 06:53:20 PM
Oh man, I couldnt live without my kitchen aid. And just think, they have a sausage attachment. 8) I really want that one. They also have some other really cool attachments.

What I wish they had (and Im not completely sure they dont) is a mastication type juicer attachment.

 I used to have a separate mastication juicer that s*** the bed not to long ago. Hard to live without one. Not only for making all kinds of juice but using veg juice in soups and cooking instead of plain water is just out of this world. Takes it up to a whole other level.

Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 13, 2010, 07:14:52 PM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: bluesman on November 13, 2010, 07:31:40 PM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!

The pasta attachment is one I need to experiment with this year.

I have yet to make pasta with the KA.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 13, 2010, 07:34:36 PM
I use a 50/50 blend of AP and semolina for pasta.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 13, 2010, 07:57:06 PM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!

The pasta attachment is one I need to experiment with this year.

I have yet to make pasta with the KA.

Is it hand roll with a dowel or rolling pin or with the clamp on counter top pasta machine? Cranking the pasta machine isn't hard, but then I'm not old and arthritic... ;)
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 13, 2010, 08:39:45 PM
It's the clamp to the counter pasta machine, hand cranked.  You;re right, it's not too bad, but mu counters are thicker than the clamp mechanism on the machine will take.  So, I have to clamp it to a cutting board, then C clamp the cutting board to the counter.  A total PITA!
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 14, 2010, 05:49:52 AM
...I have a KA mixer and use it all ther time during cooking/baking season...

Baking season?

Can I be fined for baking out of season?    ;)

Baking season is defined as the time when it's not too ungodly hot to turn the oven on.

I baked one loaf tonight, made 2 pizzas with the other. One deep dish, one regular. I made the deep dish in my cast iron skillet, and it turned out pretty well, but I can't help but wonder if it would've been better if I could figure out a way to preheat the skillet.

Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one that calls it a "PTO" on the KA mixer.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on November 14, 2010, 06:43:05 AM
I made a loaf of my usual bread today, kind of a rustic loaf.  This time though, instead of 50/50 bread/ap flour, I used 50/50 bread/whole wheat flour and added two Tbs of vital wheat gluten.  The loaf looks great, but we haven't sliced into it yet.  I might need to tweak the amount of gluten added and I might try to do 100% whole wheat, we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: morticaixavier on November 15, 2010, 04:46:48 PM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!

I LOVE the pasta attachment. I go 100 perecent semolina unless I run out and it's so easy. I can get the sheets really thin so I can make stuffed pasta without over think edges. the sheets themselves are perfect for lasagna. I also use it to make steamed dumpling skins.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on November 16, 2010, 03:12:03 AM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!

...I also use it to make steamed dumpling skins.

+1 Snap! I eat the hell out of those things.

After sitting for months I'm feeding my poolish. Almost poured out the cup of liquid but thought... Hmm there's flavor components. Probably would have got drunk if I was brave enough to do a shooter...
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 16, 2010, 05:18:01 AM
After sitting for months I'm feeding my poolish. Almost poured out the cup of liquid but thought... Hmm there's flavor components. Probably would have got drunk if I was brave enough to do a shooter...

I feed my poolish every night. Wait, are we talking about the same thing?
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tygo on November 16, 2010, 05:45:25 AM
One of my main motivations for getting a KA is the pasta attachment.  If I never had to hand roll another batch of pasta, I'd be a happy guy!

I didn't even realize KA had a pasta attachment.  Now I have a new thing to add to my wishlist.  I haven't made fresh pasta in years because it's such a pain in the ass.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on October 07, 2011, 06:51:55 AM
Usually I just use yeast and never have had an official sourdough culture. Usually I try for a spontaneous fermentation from the flour.

I pulled out the container yesterday. It's been many many months. Poured the liquid off. Scooped about a 1/4 cup and mixed it with 1/2 cup water to which I added a couple tbs of flour. Made a thin slurry and planted the bowl by my laptop to warm it up. Observed a brief fermentation over about 4 hours. Then mixed in another 1/2 cup flour and 24 hours later it has been chugging along with more and more bubbles.

Was tempted to place it outside open to the air to catch the local "bugs", but shouldn't the flour be enough to start a real sourdough culture?


Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: tschmidlin on October 07, 2011, 07:26:02 AM
Yeah, as far as I know there is enough microflora on the wheat (and so in the flour) that you can grow a sourdough culture out of it.  And they would tend to overwhelm anything that would fall in the culture anyway, so unless you plan to propagate for a long time, local microflora won't have much of an impact.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: euge on October 23, 2011, 08:06:42 PM
Yeah, as far as I know there is enough microflora on the wheat (and so in the flour) that you can grow a sourdough culture out of it.  And they would tend to overwhelm anything that would fall in the culture anyway, so unless you plan to propagate for a long time, local microflora won't have much of an impact.

Been using what comes in the all-purpose and bread flour that I've been buying. Amazing. No need to buy yeast at all.

I found a decent website with instructions etc. http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bakingintro.html (http://www.sourdoughhome.com/bakingintro.html) My spontaneous fermentation really took off when I started to add straight city water which is about 300ppm. Previously I was just using RO and while I was getting fermentation it was lackluster.

Made some really nice focaccia which is easy with such a sticky dough. Last batch was pretty dry when it was placed to rest in the fridge for 24 hours. Once warmed up for another 10 hours the dough was so sticky it was nearly impossible to handle. Delicious though. ;D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 23, 2011, 06:36:17 AM
Ha! Was just about to update this thread. Just finished kneading a batch of dough, second of the season.

Yes, there's enough beasties in the flour itself. I restart mine every year from 1/4 cup refrigerated starter, a cup of flour, and a cup of water. Who knows how much of the original strain remains, but I originally started it from a sour mash I had run in a similar way for some porter. So all in all I'm not worried.

I have a sourdough bread recipe for anyone who might be interested.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: morticaixavier on November 23, 2011, 04:23:12 PM
Ha! Was just about to update this thread. Just finished kneading a batch of dough, second of the season.

Yes, there's enough beasties in the flour itself. I restart mine every year from 1/4 cup refrigerated starter, a cup of flour, and a cup of water. Who knows how much of the original strain remains, but I originally started it from a sour mash I had run in a similar way for some porter. So all in all I'm not worried.

I have a sourdough bread recipe for anyone who might be interested.

Well? don't be a d*** tease! give! ;D
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: denny on November 23, 2011, 05:51:41 PM
Yeah, let's see it.  I just started cranking up my starter a couple hours ago, planning to bake Fri.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: MrNate on November 23, 2011, 10:16:03 PM
Nothing magical. Just the basics.


Ingredients:
6 ½ cups white bread flour (high gluten) + whatever is needed to revive starter
2 ½ cups water
¼ cup sourdough starter
2 tsp salt

Prepare Starter:
Prepare starter 2-3 days in advance by removing from fridge and pouring into a small stainless or plastic mixing bowl or ceramic crock. Add 1/2c flour and 1/2c lukewarm water. Allow to sit, covered, at room temperature until fermentation subsides and a thin, alcoholic beer forms on the surface (1-2 days). Pour off beer and feed starter again to same consistency as before. Use in recipe while it is at peak activity (sponge stage).
Prepare Dough:
Combine 1c bread flour, water, salt, and starter in bowl of mixer. Mix. Add remaining flour 1 cup at a time until dough becomes too thick to mix (around 6 cups). Put dough on floured surface and knead remaining 1/2c flour in. Continue kneading for at least 15-20 minutes. Form into ball by stretching and folding until there is a single seam at the bottom.
Lightly coat inside of large stainless or plastic mixing bowl with olive oil. Roll dough ball in flour to coat. Place dough seam-down into bowl. Lightly coat exposed surface of dough with olive oil. Lay a sheet of saran wrap loosely over dough, trying to limit air exposure and drying. Allow to rise for 12-15 hours, or until doubled in size.
Once doubled, punch down dough, remove from bowl onto floured surface, split into 2 loaves, form, and allow to rise for an additional 6 hours, or until doubled. I prefer round loaves; the easiest way to make them is to again form 2 balls of dough by stretching and pinching. Place a sheet of saran wrap inside a medium-sized bowl and dust saran wrap with flour. Place dough ball seam side up in bowl, coat lightly with oil, and place another sheet of saran on top. You’ll be flipping it over later, so the dough should basically be upside-down at this point so that the seam will end up on the bottom.




Baking:
Place pizza stones on top and bottom oven racks. Preheat oven to 375. Allow pizza stones to heat up to temperature, usually an hour or so. Place a small stainless bowl of water in the oven and let it steam.
Once loaves are doubled, remove top sheet of saran wrap. Place a sheet of parchment paper on top of dough, and a peel or flat cookie sheet or anything else you can find that will work as a peel on top of the bowl, so you essentially have a sandwich with the peel on top, parchment in between, and bowl of dough on the bottom. Carefully flip the entire thing over and remove the bowl, then remove the saran wrap. Slash the dough using a sharp serrated knife or razor blade, and brush with egg white. Slide off the peel into hot oven, parchment and all, directly onto pizza stone. Leave water bowl in oven for entire baking cycle.
Bake for 45 minutes.


Edit: I think this was actually adapted from the site Euge posted. Also, after this last round I think it's worth trying to get the stones hotter. I think next time I'll try cranking the oven up to 500 and leaving them in for an hour and a half - 2 hours, then turning the oven back down before I put the bread in. I think the hotter induction might make for a better oven spring.
Title: Re: Sourdough Time!
Post by: maxieboy on November 23, 2011, 10:58:36 PM
Ha! Was just about to update this thread. Just finished kneading a batch of dough, second of the season.

Yes, there's enough beasties in the flour itself. I restart mine every year from 1/4 cup refrigerated starter, a cup of flour, and a cup of water. Who knows how much of the original strain remains, but I originally started it from a sour mash I had run in a similar way for some porter. So all in all I'm not worried.

I have a sourdough bread recipe for anyone who might be interested.

Well? don't be a d*** tease! give! ;D
 

No need to bleep dough tease...  ;D