Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

Other than Brewing => All Things Food => Topic started by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 03:31:18 AM

Title: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 03:31:18 AM
I'll start off with some pictures. Mmmmmmm! Blue cheese.

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: corkybstewart on October 16, 2010, 03:55:10 AM
I really want to move past the mozzarella stage of cheese making, maybe this winter I'll be able to make some goat cheeses and the other cheeses we love so much.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 04:10:13 AM
Waiting for the curd to set.

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/IMAG0072.jpg)

Cooking the curd

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/SNAA4020.jpg)

Cooked curd


(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/IMAG0073.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 16, 2010, 04:25:23 AM
Wow thats great. This is something I want to do too.

 So many things to make, so little time.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 04:27:39 AM
I need to find a good wood to smoke the cheese. What kind of carboard too!

I'm not going to smoke the blue cheese, that bacteria is pricey
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 04:30:56 AM
Goat milk is cool but you can make great cheese with store bought milk. It is a great way to practice. The ulta pasturized milk won't work but regular pasturized milk works.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: The Professor on October 16, 2010, 05:18:54 AM
Very cool!
The only cheesemaking I've ever attempted is the simplest of simple  Indian (southeast Asian Indian, that is)  style  Paneer cheese:  heat, acidify, drain the curds,, and press.    That one is very much (to me anyway) like the Queso de Frier cheese in the hispanic supermarkets around here...which actually makes a good substitute for the Paneer when I'm too lazy to make it.

The idea of doing a nicely aged  blue-veined cheese is intriguing...other than some of the creamy raw milk cheeses like Morbier or Raclette   and very ripe cheeses like Limburger,  all of which I love,   I think that the Bleu, Stilton, Gorgonzola, and others of that type are my favorites (especially with a snifter of strong Porter or a truly old Old Ale). 
I forget where the quote comes from, but I've heard cheese referred to as "milk's great leap toward immortality".

I guess it will have to be my next science project...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 16, 2010, 05:40:41 AM
I made a cheddar a couple of years ago, it turned out nice except that I couldn't get it pressed enough so there was a lot of nooks and crannies on the surface so it as impossible to wax and age.  We ate it young.  I need to try again, that was fun.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 16, 2010, 06:04:44 AM
You should have acess to all kinds of cardboard boxes. Any will do.

BTW, nice pressure cooker. You are just using it as a double boiler there right?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 16, 2010, 02:23:52 PM
BTW, nice pressure cooker. You are just using it as a double boiler there right?

Yep, It holds my 4 gallon pot so I can make 3 gallon batches of cheese.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 16, 2010, 03:52:46 PM
BTW, nice pressure cooker. You are just using it as a double boiler there right?

Yep, It holds my 4 gallon pot so I can make 3 gallon batches of cheese.

Are you using fresh milk or store-bought?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 16, 2010, 03:56:21 PM
Oh, its fresh.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 16, 2010, 04:08:43 PM
Oh, its fresh.


I hesitate to ask, but did you milk it from an animal that tends to walk upright or something?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 16, 2010, 04:11:35 PM
No Boulder did. And Im pretty sure it walks on all fours. I dont know though I think he breeds, who knows what he has goin on up there.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 16, 2010, 04:12:57 PM
Goat milk is cool but you can make great cheese with store bought milk. It is a great way to practice. The ulta pasturized milk won't work but regular pasturized milk works.

Maybe I should read the thread better next time. ::)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 17, 2010, 02:27:45 PM
Fresh goats milk is what I use when we have it. I'll used store bought milk if I have to.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 17, 2010, 11:32:33 PM
  Tubercle has been making cheese for about a year now. Starting to specialize in cheddar and Gouda. Done went through several variations of presses and have not really been satisfied with the results. Cheeses is good but the right kind of press will make it better. I got a plan in mind for a Dutch press design that I'm gathering up parts for now with a block and tackle weight system.
 
 Been using store bought milk so far with excellent results. I have a source for raw cow and goat lined up but waiting to get the process nailed first.

 Moving on to blues and Swiss styles soon. Got to get another temp controlled fridge first. The one I got now is full. 8)

 Tried the waxing thing. To heck with that mess, bought a vacuum sealer, much better.

 Read all about it.... http://Cheeseforum.org
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 18, 2010, 02:30:21 AM
I agree with a vacuum sealer. You can always open and get the mold off.

Swiss is a different animal, my guess is you have to press warm and in liquid. I'm not totaly sure about this but both of my rounds swelled pretty good.

Sticker shock on the blue mold! but if you want to try I may sell you one inoculation so you can try.

Turbercle should tell Tubercle just use the raw milk and don't be a chicken. ;)

Cheese forum is good, Check out the http://www.dairyconnection.com/ (http://Dairy connection) for all you cheese making cultures.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 18, 2010, 02:49:56 AM
Sticker shock on the blue mold! but if you want to try I may sell you one inoculation so you can try.

Turbercle should tell Tubercle just use the raw milk and don't be a chicken. ;)

Easy for a farmer to say - raw milk, on top of travel costs ranges from 6 to 9 a gallon.
Cuz the gub'mint says it'll kill ya dead! The farmers selling the stuff are almost like drug dealers. Who sent you, where did you come from, how did you find out about us? They're paranoid. (and rightfully so)

Could you buy a small hunk of blue cheese at the store and use that to innoculate?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 18, 2010, 02:50:10 AM
This is one of my favorites. Aged as long as possible.  8)

(http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=489&uid=1076370272)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 18, 2010, 03:18:15 AM
This is one of my favorites. Aged as long as possible.  8)

(http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=489&uid=1076370272)

Thats my cheese but it ain't yellow.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 18, 2010, 03:23:24 AM
Sticker shock on the blue mold! but if you want to try I may sell you one inoculation so you can try.


Could you buy a small hunk of blue cheese at the store and use that to innoculate?

It may work, I have not tried it. It is only $34 for 10 doses.

Shaved my blue cheese today, Now it looks like real blue cheese. The next shave will be in 20 days. ( I'll post a picture)

Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 19, 2010, 02:21:55 AM
Could you buy a small hunk of blue cheese at the store and use that to innoculate?

 I've read that you can take a small piece and puree it in a blender with some milk and use that to inoculate. It would be worth 2 gallons of milk to find out. Gonna try it next.

 There is a retail store a few miles from here that advertises raw cow milk and goat milk. Time to try it too. I ain't scared ;D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 19, 2010, 02:34:14 AM
I've read that you can take a small piece and puree it in a blender with some milk and use that to inoculate. It would be worth 2 gallons of milk to find out. Gonna try it next.

 There is a retail store a few miles from here that advertises raw cow milk and goat milk. Time to try it too. I ain't scared ;D

Just know that the raw milk is gonna give you a totally different texture. The farmer I got my milk from was making paneer cheese and said she couldn't do it with raw milk because it would become stringy. Depends on the cheese you're shooting for...

someone said we were gonna start talking about sausage here. Can you stuff cheese into sausage casings? And then maybe smoke it?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 19, 2010, 07:37:44 AM
someone said we were gonna start talking about sausage here. Can you stuff cheese into sausage casings? And then maybe smoke it?
I'll bet that would work.

I got some sausages from the store that had cheese in the mix.  The problem is, when you slice the sausage the cheese runs out.  The bigger problem is, that's right when you take them out of the fridge.  More like "cheese" I guess.   ::)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 19, 2010, 01:23:56 PM
I think it'd be cool to have a layer of sausage, a layer of cheese, sausage, cheese, etc. until the casing is filled.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 19, 2010, 03:57:08 PM
I would eat that.  You'd have to cook it hot enough to cook the sausage though, so you'd have to hope the casing isn't broken and doesn't split during cooking.  That would make for a mess in my grill.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 19, 2010, 05:27:20 PM
One would have to heat it gently and slowly. Then hit it with some heat to crisp it up a bit. Or one could use harder cheeses like feta that really don't melt very well.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 19, 2010, 07:06:24 PM
I was actually thinking bleu cheese.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 19, 2010, 09:33:54 PM
There is a butcher shop in my area that makes "Packer" snack sticks, they add jalapeno and cheddar and then smoke the sausage. It doesn't melt the cheese. I'm sure it can be done.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: abraxas on October 19, 2010, 10:57:28 PM
A couple of the beer fests around here had cheese jerky booths this year.  It's like a thick mozzarella  with chunks of jerky in it, not too bad.

http://www.cheesejerky.com/main.html

Since they were selling them at the second festival I think I might have accidentally stole one from the first.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 21, 2010, 02:00:31 AM
Ok some "bald" blue cheese. This was a couple days from removing the first bloom. The red mold is natural. Only a few more months! Yummmmmmmm!

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese001.jpg)


(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese002.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 21, 2010, 02:05:18 AM
Ok, here's my dumb question for the night. I've always been told that eating moldy things will make you sick because the mold releases toxins into the medium. Now is that one of those old wive's tales, or is it a very special kind of mold that grows on bleu cheese?

If the latter, how does one know that his cheese is, in fact, growing the correct mold? I recognize that you innoculate it with a specific culture, but is it just hope beyond that point?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 21, 2010, 03:42:13 AM
Blue cheese mold that I had afterscraping was not harmful, an I'm still here, didn't even give my the runs. Most cheese molds won't hurt you unless you eat alot of it.


One of the cheese molds that is the source of camabert cheese is penicillum I bet that would not hurt you. You may want to keep that in your fridge just in case!

Here is a link and you should decide for your self what is good for you and what is not.
http://www.dairyconnection.com/commerce/catalog.jsp?catId=4
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 21, 2010, 10:34:21 PM
Ok, here's my dumb question for the night. I've always been told that eating moldy things will make you sick because the mold releases toxins into the medium. Now is that one of those old wive's tales, or is it a very special kind of mold that grows on bleu cheese?

If the latter, how does one know that his cheese is, in fact, growing the correct mold? I recognize that you innoculate it with a specific culture, but is it just hope beyond that point?

 Most of the mold - read bacteria - in cheese occurs naturally in milk and is beneficial to be ingested. Actually your body needs it to digest stuff properly. The environment of an aging cheese is a lot like pickles, beer and wine with low PH and such. The bad critters find this environment hostile and if any do grow there it will be very evident.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 22, 2010, 01:24:12 AM
Not to disagree with tubercle, but certain cheeses (like Bleu) most definitely do contain fungal mold in addition to bacteria.

I was just curious as to how you go about determining whether or not your cheese is actually growing the right culture, or how one creates an environment that is an eden to one kind of mold but not another, or if, in general, apathy is the best policy.

By the by, I've got nothing against lactobacillus. I have a bowl full of the little suckers on top of my fridge at this very moment, awaiting their imminent sacrifice to the bakery gods.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 22, 2010, 01:53:52 AM
The fairly high salt content in cheese helps preserve it and retard spoiling. It's a pretty harsh environment for most organisms. 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 22, 2010, 12:25:23 PM
Not to disagree with tubercle, but certain cheeses (like Bleu) most definitely do contain fungal mold in addition to bacteria.

I was just curious as to how you go about determining whether or not your cheese is actually growing the right culture, or how one creates an environment that is an eden to one kind of mold but not another, or if, in general, apathy is the best policy.

By the by, I've got nothing against lactobacillus. I have a bowl full of the little suckers on top of my fridge at this very moment, awaiting their imminent sacrifice to the bakery gods.

  Feel free to disagree with me anytime. I might actually learn something from it ;D

 Yes, there are many type of mold and such associated with the cheese but think of the cheese environment like the beer environment. We hear "there is nothing that can grow in a healthy fermenting beer that will hurt you". For some beer styles this extra growth is actually desirable. This is mainly because of the lack of O2. The interior of cheese is the same way. No O2 available for the harmful types to survive, especially in the aging process where the "good" bacteria and molds overwhelm the food supply just like a healthy dose of yeast does for beer. Finally the finished product gets to the point where the environment is just too hostile for even the good stuff to grow and live but the enzymes produced through their death continue to mature the cheese.

 The exterior is a different story. Moisture and O2 is available. This is where salt content, drying to create a rind, waxing or vacuum sealing, etc..comes in. In the case of blues and other mold rind developed cheeses, again the predominate mold overwhelms through a controlled environment. Bad stuff can grow on the outside so attention is due. In order to get the blue mold to the interior (its actually already there, just not viable) the cheese has to be pierced to allow O2 inside to create the veining. Sometimes a bad, thus harmful, mold will get on the cheese. This is usually a black, fuzzy mold that  is readily apparent that can be cut away or killed with a salt/vinegar solution.

  Most of the deaths from "bath tub" cheeses are fresh cheeses (not aged) that are consumed immediately and bad sanitation practices or bad raw materials were used.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 22, 2010, 10:15:23 PM
Wow, thanks for the info.

Sounds to me like home cheese making should be illegal.

Seriously though, what do you guys think about  kids drinking raw milk? We have a gallon coming to a drop off point from an Amish farmer.

The wife now no longer wants to drink it because of the CDC's warnings about consuming raw milk and cheeses made from raw milk.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 22, 2010, 11:33:14 PM
Wow, thanks for the info.

Sounds to me like home cheese making should be illegal.

Seriously though, what do you guys think about  kids drinking raw milk? We have a gallon coming to a drop off point from an Amish farmer.

The wife now no longer wants to drink it because of the CDC's warnings about consuming raw milk and cheeses made from raw milk.

  Cheeses made from raw milk is safe and actually much better for you. They have to be aged at least 60 days by most state's regulations. At that point the pH and all the other things I don't understand makes the cheese where the baddies can't grow.

 Raw milk is getting a bad rap for some political reason. Don't know what or who but somebody's pocket is getting lined.

From Wikipedia:

"Pasteurization was first used in the United States in the 1890s after the discovery of germ theory to control the hazards of highly contagious bacterial diseases including bovine tuberculosis and brucellosis that was thought to be easily transmitted to humans through the drinking of raw milk.[1] Initially after the scientific discovery of bacteria, no product testing was available to determine if a farmer's milk was safe or infected, so all milk was treated as potentially contagious. After the first test was developed, some farmers actively worked to prevent their infected animals from being killed and removed from food production, or would falsify the test results so that their animals would appear to be free of infection.[2]

When it was first used, pasteurization was thought to make raw milk from any source safer to consume. More recently, farm sanitation has greatly improved and effective testing has been developed for bovine tuberculosis and other diseases, making other approaches to ensuring safety of milk more feasible; however pasteurization continues to be widely used to prevent infected milk from entering the food supply."

 Back to Tubercle:

 Pasteurization kills all organism, good and bad. In raw milk, from what I have read, the good guys keep the bad guys at bay but after pasteurization its open to who ever gets there first. One example I read was to leave a container of raw milk and one of pasteurized on the counter over night. The raw is still safe to drink but the pasteurized is not. Actually leaving out raw milk over night is how you get the cream to separate. I guess it all comes down to handling practices. Raw anything; hamburger, fish chicken, all can be deadly if not handled and stored properly.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 23, 2010, 12:02:17 AM
Some pretty good reading material on raw milk from the Cheeseforum:

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4346.msg33185.html#msg33185

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,5106.msg38658.html#msg38658

 There are hundreds of others...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 23, 2010, 12:09:56 AM
Don't get me started on how small dairy farmers started getting the shaft in the '70s and '80s.

PA Raw milk, like many other states that have legalized it, is subject to some pretty healthy scrutiny:
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/007/chapter59/subchapCtoc.html

Here's what it comes down to for me. If I had met the farmer and seen the farm, I'd drink the milk.
If not, I'd make cheese.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 03:08:51 AM
The raw milk I use for cheese is kept for more than 60 days before consumption. This is a government regulation for raw milk cheese producers. I don't have to because I'm confident in our milk handling capabilities ( I made mozerella and used it all within a week, no problems). However that said if I were to buy raw milk from someone I didn't know I would age my cheese for 60 days or pasturize the milk.

For mold Tubercle pretty much sums it up. Black mold is not desireable.

You can always check this forum out to answer your questions. http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php

Cap you drink the milk first and wait a day to see. That said I would only trust the raw milk the I pulled from the teat for my kids and handled it accordingly. Ask the provider would he give the milk to his kids or grandkids?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 03:17:01 AM
The one I ordered from is three hours away so I dont thinnk I will go there. But, I found another raw milk farm that is much closer. Im gonna go there, maybe this weekend. They have their own cows that are grass fed. Apparently raw milk from cows that are fed on grain and or soy does not have the same "good bacteria" to combat the "bad bacteria".

I think they will give us a tour. This is the farm. http://www.birchwoodfarmdairy.com/

Here is some of the stuff I have been reading. Lots of good info here. http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/

Boulder, what help is it to keep the milk for sixty days? Seems it would go bad before then.

 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 03:20:08 AM
Keep the cheese made from raw milk for 60 days. Wii law.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 03:23:40 AM
Oh Im sorry, I thought you meant the milk was kept for sixty days before making cheese. Duh.

That cheese looks fantastic. This is really something I want to try.

What are you using for cheese molds? Or are the molds call something else? I was thinking those Chinese bamboo steamer baskets would work.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 23, 2010, 03:28:25 AM
Seriously this thread is still about cheese???
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 03:37:43 AM
I have a press similar to this one but it has a spring guage to determine the pressure.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160394176676&rvr_id=157120938609&crlp=1_263602_304642&UA=WXI7&GUID=32e045f31290a02653847524ffe12e9c&itemid=160394176676&ff4=263602_304642
 I went with the SS outer hoop. Many can be made way cheaper but this was a present.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 23, 2010, 03:50:04 AM
Seriously this thread is still about cheese???

It amazes me too.  ;)

...but I have to admit...I love cheese.  :)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 03:52:26 AM
Don't hate the cheese.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 23, 2010, 04:05:41 AM
Seriously this thread is still about cheese???

I tried, man.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 04:15:36 AM
Here ya go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-6n0jlN0Eo
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 04:21:06 AM
How about this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOYkXdqQVec&feature=related
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 23, 2010, 04:40:31 AM
I have a press similar to this one but it has a spring guage to determine the pressure.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160394176676&rvr_id=157120938609&crlp=1_263602_304642&UA=WXI7&GUID=32e045f31290a02653847524ffe12e9c&itemid=160394176676&ff4=263602_304642
 I went with the SS outer hoop. Many can be made way cheaper but this was a present.

That's pretty cool, it looks like it would be easy to make yourself if you have a cheese mold, but I can't tell what the internal mechanism looks like.

Do you think a fruit press would work?  I have this old one, it's small but I'd probably need to do at least 2 gallons of milk to get a reasonable thickness to the wheel.  Would you line it with cheese cloth, or do you just press it in the mold as is?  And how important is the pressure measurement?  I'm not sure how I'd measure that.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_j-Iuc3I_JMk/TMJm3Uvr9iI/AAAAAAAAAFM/7MmVbMBuPvE/IMG00173-20101022-2132.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 23, 2010, 04:48:05 AM
I was thinking about a screw-type design myself... curious to see what some of the cheesemakers here thought.

BTW, I can't be arsed to sign up for another forum, so you resident cheeseheads shall be my gods amongst men.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 04:51:46 AM
I used cheese cloth inside my press. My press is about 6" in diameter.  For smaller batches it comes with a 4" cylinder. I have seen them made with PVC drain pipe you would just have to make a 4" follower ie the top plate. With some math and a scale I'm sure you can use the fruit press. You want to figure out psi. Without a guage go lighter than you think. My first batch of cheddar was more like parmesian without having a pressure guage.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 04:58:40 AM
This is what I have.

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3268&cat=35&page=1

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3265&cat=35&page=1

I'm sure the pressure changes with the different diameters, but I'm to lazy to figure it out. I have only used my 6" diameter hoop
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 23, 2010, 05:17:22 AM
How does that scale work?  Where does it get mounted in the press?  Is it just measuring based on compression, torque, or something else?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 23, 2010, 05:26:16 AM
This is what I have.

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3268&cat=35&page=1

http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3265&cat=35&page=1

I'm sure the pressure changes with the different diameters, but I'm to lazy to figure it out. I have only used my 6" diameter hoop

[/quote

Jeeze that's not cheap! But like brewing, some things you can DIY and some are better to buy.

How about dumping a couple large containers of large curd cottage cheese in one of those molds? Is that farmer's cheese? Back in the 90's I lightly pressed some in a cheese cloth and got a couple cups of dry curds. I wanted something more solid.

I'm figuring cottage cheese wouldn't have the culture in it to make just any cheese but maybe more of a time-saver.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 01:35:29 PM


http://www.letslegalizeit.com/
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 23, 2010, 01:51:43 PM
Great Cap, start up another illegal substance thread.  ::)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 01:59:16 PM
I know,the similarities are striking aren't they?

Bring it.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 23, 2010, 03:00:05 PM
Nah, I'm actually for it. It's a b**** to get, but I give it to my kids - they love it. 5 gallons starts to turn around day 9 so I'll cook or kefir-ize it after that. It doesn't go bad like store bought, the flavor just changes...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 23, 2010, 03:05:50 PM
Great Cap, start up another illegal substance thread.  ::)

He's a troublemaker.  :-\
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 04:34:24 PM
I just got back from Birtchwood Dairy Farm. My daughter and I got to meet the cows and everything. Real nice people.

Got a gallon of raw milk.It was $8 per gallon.the farm I ordered from is $6 per gallon. I told them about this price difference and they explained that the other farm that is delivering to me is very good but the difference is that the other farm sells homogenized raw milk and then sells the cream separately. Their product is whole raw un-homogenized milk. So with their product you get the cream and the milk for $8. makes sense right?

The cream hasnt come to the top yet. It is obvious that this milk is better when you taste it. I just drank a glass and it is sweet and creamy. Hopefully I will survive without getting sick or going blind. Then I will give some to the offspring.

So I can expect at least seven days of shelf life?

Cant wait to see the cream, Im going to make some creme fresh.

As far as being a trouble maker, sorry for that. I just try to make conversation and I am sometimes forgetful in my discretion. I know this isnt the forum for many topics, its just that I "hold certain truths to be self evident" and if you are not legally allowed to by raw milk or you are not legally allowed to distill your own spirits or fuel or perfume then all of your other freedoms are in question.

Ok, so now I have a gallon of raw milk.What should my next level be to practice cheese making? Ive make yogurt regularly, I started making kefir. Ive also gotten as far as paneer/ ricotta, Never made any large curd though.

Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 23, 2010, 06:05:40 PM
I just got back from Birtchwood Dairy Farm. My daughter and I got to meet the cows and everything. Real nice people.

Got a gallon of raw milk.It was $8 per gallon.the farm I ordered from is $6 per gallon. I told them about this price difference and they explained that the other farm that is delivering to me is very good but the difference is that the other farm sells homogenized raw milk and then sells the cream separately. Their product is whole raw un-homogenized milk. So with their product you get the cream and the milk for $8. makes sense right?

The cream hasnt come to the top yet. It is obvious that this milk is better when you taste it. I just drank a glass and it is sweet and creamy. Hopefully I will survive without getting sick or going blind. Then I will give some to the offspring.

So I can expect at least seven days of shelf life?

Cant wait to see the cream, Im going to make some creme fresh.

As far as being a trouble maker, sorry for that. I just try to make conversation and I am sometimes forgetful in my discretion. I know this isnt the forum for many topics, its just that I "hold certain truths to be self evident" and if you are not legally allowed to by raw milk or you are not legally allowed to distill your own spirits or fuel or perfume then all of your other freedoms are in question.

Ok, so now I have a gallon of raw milk.What should my next level be to practice cheese making? Ive make yogurt regularly, I started making kefir. Ive also gotten as far as paneer/ ricotta, Never made any large curd though.



Easiest thing for you to do is make kefir cheese. Make a batch, properly aged, dump it in some cheese cloth, ball it up, suspend it so it can drain, wait a day or two and you have a soft cream cheese type spreadable thing going on. You can put herbs and stuff in there if you wish, or some salt - it comes out on the sweet side.
 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 06:21:37 PM
How long would you say is properly aged?

Now I have to find some raw goats milk.  ::)


Check out viili. It is a lot like yogurt and kefir but it involves mold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viili

(http://www.eatingoffthefoodgrid.com/a/kefiili2.png)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 23, 2010, 07:11:11 PM
Raw dairy isn't a federal offense. It's one of those "reserved to the states" things, as it probably should be. Illegal milk is as stupid on the state level as it is the federal, but at the state level it's easier to change the laws, easier to bootleg, and penalties are usually less severe.

Anyway, I'd like to check the place out. When are you planning your next trip out there? I can bring my daughters and we could meet up with you.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 07:42:34 PM
Sounds cool, meet up and have a couple of milks together.  Its a real nice area, Upper Makefield, Rolling PA hills and farms. You should go soon with the leaves changing it is beautiful. There is a baby bull right out front. Make a little time to drive around. We got lost today and I didn't stress about it one bit.  Oh BTW, real easy to drive by and miss it. It is just a residential lane with no real sign.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 08:09:04 PM
Maybe some pictures to help explain it. You don't need to buy a press there are a few instructions on the web to make your own. The only thing missing from the picture are the wingnuts that hold the wood cross piece down.

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese003.jpg)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese004.jpg)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese005.jpg)

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/BlueCheese006.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 08:12:44 PM
Nice, so the pressure gage is a good idea I guess?

Nice pumpkins BTW, what ya gonna do with those? Pies?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 08:18:38 PM
Probably, maybe can a bit of them and use some in beer.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 08:24:07 PM
Pick up this book at the library.

(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u133/Boulderbrewer/Beerforums/cheesemakingbook.jpg)

Her website/store has lot of information on different cheeses you can make. Also some recipes

http://www.cheesemaking.com/
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 23, 2010, 08:31:13 PM
Cool.

Check out this distillery dairy tie in. Seems the distilleries had a large hand in making milk unsafe making it necessary to pass pasteurization laws. 

http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/distillery_dairy.html
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 23, 2010, 08:36:25 PM
As always a few bad apples ruin it for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 23, 2010, 10:24:03 PM
  I have a press similar to boulderbrewer's that uses a 50psi spring. The problem is the pressure decreases as the cheese is compressed and the screw has to constantly adjusted.

  Most recipes call for a certain amount of weight to be applied but it should be calculated in psi. If a recipe calls for 50 lbs of weight its probably referring to a 4" diameter mould which would apply ~ 4 psi. Change that to a 6" mould and its only ~1.75psi. To get the same 4psi on a 6" mould you would need to apply 115lbs :o I'm building a dutch press which uses a lever arm that constant pressure can be applied and hopefully this will improve my cheese.

(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DutchPressJPG.png)

Something like this...

(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/cheesepress.jpg)

Or this...

(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/overviewjpg_thumb.png)

Or for even more mechanical advantage add a few pulleys...

 BTW...I lifted all of these pics from the cheeseforum.org. I hope they ain't copyrighted :-\

 Dear mods, if there is a problem with this I'll remove them.

  
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 24, 2010, 06:11:43 AM
Ok, that's pretty cool.  Very clever, and easy to figure out the math to get the right pressure.  So what is the right pressure? :)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 24, 2010, 06:29:06 AM
Or just build a ramp and park the car on it.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 24, 2010, 12:36:08 PM
Ok, that's pretty cool.  Very clever, and easy to figure out the math to get the right pressure.  So what is the right pressure? :)

 Here is a good discussion on whats required on the cheeseforum.org
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2417.0/topicseen.html

  Every recipe has its own pressing requirements. Some none, some a lot, like 25 psi. Pressing time is different too from a few hours to 24 hours depending on type and other variables. Most recipes are listed as pound of weight instead of psi but they seem to be aimed at 4 inch moulds. From there the psi can be figured and applied to whatever mould is in use.

  The first several cheeses I made were attempts at cheddar and monterrey jack styles and were very acidic and crumbly. Nasty actually. :-X  After a lot of research I decided I wasn't pressing enough so just started stacking weights on the mould without using the spring/screw thing. They came out much better, well knitted and sharp but not sour. I learned that the moisture content which the culture lives on can be too high and they continue to acidify. Higher pressing pressure expels more moisture and controls the rate at which the cheese matures. I wasn't adding enough salt also which also controls the cultures. I threw the first 4 or 5 away but since then they have gotten pretty good ;D
I made the mistake of giving family samples and just like beer, they want more ;D

Free of course :D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 24, 2010, 01:26:59 PM
Oh man, I just thought of something. I have the parts from an old arbor press. It is actually some kind of old broaching press. Bet that would make a great cheese press.

I wonder if some kind of all propose press could be devised?  Cheese, cider, grapes. Guess it would be a problem that it is made of steel?

Does the cheese have to stay in the press for long periods of time?

On another subject. My raw milk got the cream line but I expected much more. I lived in farm land Ohio for a few years when I was a kid and we would get milk right from the dairy farm. The cream would rise to the top by the next day and sometimes would be 2" or more thick. It would be very dense thick cream too, It could hold on an overturned spoon. This gallon of raw milk I have now has maybe 1/8" cream line. I don't know, maybe the Ohio cows were to bred produce more cream.

What do you guys do with your whey? Ever tried to make home made yoohoo? Its good.

Supposed to be some way to get ricotta cheese out of whey too.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 24, 2010, 01:35:14 PM
use a narrower container if it really bugs you. you'll get your 2".

and different cows DO produce various levels of fat. Guernsey cows I believe are the highest fat content, the milk is yellow.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 24, 2010, 01:40:52 PM
This milk was pretty yellowish. It was yellow against the white background of their fridge but white against my upholstery.

Now that I think more about it the store had milk  as well as light cream, heavy cream and butter. So to some degree they must be removing some cream right? These are grass fed Jersey cows.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 24, 2010, 01:51:49 PM
What do you guys do with your whey?


  Substitute whey for water when making bread. ;)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 24, 2010, 01:53:29 PM
Jersey cows usually have the most butter fat for dairy cows, bet they were skiming your milk.

The only cheese recipes I have used are from that book. Each recipe has a differernt pressing directions, usually you start off at like 15 to 30 minutes and flip the cheese over and press for 2 hr then 24 hr. I have never had cheese in a press longer than 24hrs.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 24, 2010, 01:55:05 PM
What do you guys do with your whey?


  Substitute whey for water when making bread. ;)

I make ricotta when I make hard cheeses, makes a good drink by itself too.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 24, 2010, 02:11:24 PM
makes a good drink by itself too.

NO Whey! Seriously? Do you mix anything into it to make it taste good?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 24, 2010, 02:13:02 PM
Yellow is the beta carotene in the milk thats why, goats convert it to vitamin A thats why their milk is white. Cows on pasture give yellower milk.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 24, 2010, 02:14:41 PM
It tastes whey good, I like it warm. I don't usually drink all 2 gallons though. The chickens like it too.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 24, 2010, 02:17:21 PM
Jersey cows usually have the most butter fat for dairy cows, bet they were skiming your milk.

My bad, Jersey = 6 percent Guernsey = 5 percent.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 24, 2010, 02:29:48 PM
When we make paneer we use a gallon of milk. With the whey I ether mix in lemon juice (which is what I use to separate) and a little sugar or I put in some some cocoa to make homemade yoohoo.

I have used it in soup too.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on October 24, 2010, 04:52:34 PM
I usually dump the whey in the garden, it's supposed to be good for the plants.  I have made bread with it in the past, but usually don't.  I suppose I could freeze it and make bread some other time.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 24, 2010, 04:59:14 PM
Did I say that I love cheese.  :)

Almost as much as I love beer.  ;)

I was at an Italian market in Philly recently that has literally hundreds of different varieties of cheese.

It was whey too overwhelming for me, but I sampled some really tasty varieties of blue cheese.  I really like the Maytag variety.
The process begins with homogenizing the milk that will be used for the cheese. In making Maytag Blue Cheese, the cream is separated from the milk, homogenized and then added back into the now skim milk. This would typically occur between 80F and 100F and 2000 to 3500 pounds of pressure.  :o This would allow for proper fat hydrolysis, which affects the flavor of the cheese.

Pressing the cheese seems to be a key factor in the process.

Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 24, 2010, 11:00:59 PM
Tubercle went to lowes today and spent about $12 and 3 hours and built him a dutch style press. I will post some pictures as soon as I can get back to the store and get some $^%# fresh batteries for the camera :'(

 It has a 1.5 mechanical advantage and I got some pulleys so I can times that by 3. Should get ~4.75 psi with 30 lbs of weight on my 6" mould.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 25, 2010, 12:22:38 AM
(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/Press.jpg)

Here's my new baby along with my brew/cheese making buddies Doc and Klem.

The arm is 36" with a 12" press point which should give a 1.5:1 mechanical advantage.

Can't wait to  try it. It ain't purty, but just like a motorcycle...chrome don't get ya home.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on October 25, 2010, 12:44:48 AM
Oh I think it is more than pretty. Very nice.

Capozzoli has to ask. Does it have its Christmas tree up already? Or is that a Halloween tree?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on October 25, 2010, 12:49:17 AM
Obviously a Halloween Tree. BeerOCD just wonders how the transition is made from Halloween, to Thanksgiving, to Christmas. And does the tree go into Valentine's day and into St.Patrick's day?

Nice Press BTW.




"it"  :D<<snicker>> :D

Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 25, 2010, 12:53:52 AM
Oh I think it is more than pretty. Very nice.

Capozzoli has to ask. Does it have its Christmas tree up already? Or is that a Halloween tree?

 Thanks ;D

 The lovely and talented Ms. Tubercle puts up a Halloween tree every year for the grand kids.

 No Thanksgiving tree - yet :'(

Different one for Christmas. The Halloween one is spray painted black. Ask me how that worked out :D

 I'm sure Valentines day and St. Pat is next ::)

  I'm going to drag in a old dead branch for Dec 2012.

 I think I'm going to move the pressure point back to 6". That would give a 6:1..BOOYA.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on October 25, 2010, 01:19:20 AM
(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/Press.jpg)

Here's my new baby along with my brew/cheese making buddies Doc and Klem.

The arm is 36" with a 12" press point which should give a 1.5:1 mechanical advantage.

Can't wait to  try it. It ain't purty, but just like a motorcycle...chrome don't get ya home.

Nice. I will be making cheese soon.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 25, 2010, 02:52:19 AM
Very nice Tubercle.


Bluesman, I'm not a cheese expert but that sounds like a "triple hopped" story!
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on October 25, 2010, 04:23:55 AM
Tell MrNate more about the plastic mold part - Does it have some sort of weep hole for the water to come out? Or does the water that gets pressed out just sort of sit there on top?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 25, 2010, 06:48:36 PM
Very nice Tubercle.


Bluesman, I'm not a cheese expert but that sounds like a "triple hopped" story!


Tastes great, less filling.  :D

I got the process from wiki.  ;)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 25, 2010, 09:24:28 PM
That store sounds like a good place to visit. ;D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 25, 2010, 09:34:08 PM
Tell MrNate more about the plastic mold part - Does it have some sort of weep hole for the water to come out? Or does the water that gets pressed out just sort of sit there on top?

I have little notches on the bottom of my molds so the whey comes out the bottom when it is being pressed. My whole press sits on a plate to catch the whey. Looks like Tubercle's mold will sit in a pan while he presses.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on October 25, 2010, 11:51:41 PM
Tell MrNate more about the plastic mold part - Does it have some sort of weep hole for the water to come out? Or does the water that gets pressed out just sort of sit there on top?

I have little notches on the bottom of my molds so the whey comes out the bottom when it is being pressed. My whole press sits on a plate to catch the whey. Looks like Tubercle's mold will sit in a pan while he presses.

 That mold is actually one of those plastic canisters like you store sugar or flour in on your kitchen counter. Its exactly 6" diameter. I drilled 1/8" holes all around the sides and several in the bottom. I sit it in a plastic rectangular tupperware thingy. I have to dump the whey a few times but you have to take the cheese out of the mold and flip it a couple of times anyway. I don't guess it would hurt the cheese to sit in the whey because the pressure on the cheese is greater and it won't seep back in. There are actually methods where the cheese is pressed entirely submerged under the whey.

  I have one similar to BoulderB's. It is nothing but a 4" piece of PVC pipe.
http://schmidling.com/press.htm
It works good but the cheese is taller than it is round like a cylinder. My bowl makes one that is shorter than round like a wheel. I don't guess it makes a bit of difference.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: morticaixavier on October 27, 2010, 10:57:42 PM
I just got back from Birtchwood Dairy Farm. My daughter and I got to meet the cows and everything. Real nice people.

Got a gallon of raw milk.It was $8 per gallon.the farm I ordered from is $6 per gallon. I told them about this price difference and they explained that the other farm that is delivering to me is very good but the difference is that the other farm sells homogenized raw milk and then sells the cream separately. Their product is whole raw un-homogenized milk. So with their product you get the cream and the milk for $8. makes sense right?

The cream hasnt come to the top yet. It is obvious that this milk is better when you taste it. I just drank a glass and it is sweet and creamy. Hopefully I will survive without getting sick or going blind. Then I will give some to the offspring.

So I can expect at least seven days of shelf life?

Cant wait to see the cream, Im going to make some creme fresh.


I am pretty sure that homogenized whole milk contains all the cream of creamline milk but that cream has been so thouroughly mixed in that it will not separate again (I know there is probably more science to it that that) I think the reason that the Amish guys milk is two bucks cheaper is cause he sells it for two bucks less. Perhaps his costs are lower. it is true that you can't skim cream from homogenized milk so there is that. I would contact your amish dairy man and ask if he homogenizes. You might be able to get it cheaper and just as good.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on October 28, 2010, 12:57:35 AM
A pretty interesting discussion on cheddar cultures. 

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,3229.0.html

Looks like for semi-soft and fresh cheeses:
Cheddar, Colby, Montery Jack, Feta, Chevre, etc...

Contains:

(LL) Lactococcus lactis subsp. lactis
(LLC) Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris 



Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 06, 2010, 04:57:42 PM
Upgraded the press!!!

Named her "Little Miss Pressy". ;D

(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DSCN1603.jpg)

Added a pulley system to increase the mechanical advantage. With 20 lbs of weight I measured 188 lbs with the bathroom scales which gives and increae of 9.4. With a 6" mould I can get ~6.64 psi.

 (http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DSCN1604.jpg)

Pulley assembly....

 (http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DSCN1606.jpg)

 This is the mould I made out of one of those counter top canister things drill with 1/8" holes. The follower is a wood lid to another canister that I hope Ms. Tubercle no longer needs :'(

 (http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DSCN1605.jpg)

 The latest cheddar. Used 1 gal of whole store bought milk and 1 gal of 1%. Got a yield of 1.7 lbs. The cost for this is the cost of the 2 gallons of milk - about $7.50 - plus about 50 cents worth of other ingredients; culture, calcium chloride, etc...

 The hard part is the 3 or 4 months waiting time ;D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 06, 2010, 05:59:39 PM
Seems to me it works out to about the same price as store-bought. I calculate 29-30 cents per ounce. However, the pleasure of making and eating the cheese is incalculable.

I walked out of the store yesterday with a big wedge of Henning's Natural Horseradish Cheddar (http://henningscheese.com/). Quite possibly one of the best I've had in a long time.

I'm glad you're having success with the new press. What's the longest you've aged cheddar? Some of the sharpest I've had was 18 months.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 06, 2010, 06:14:50 PM
Seems to me it works out to about the same price as store-bought. I calculate 29-30 cents per ounce. However, the pleasure of making and eating the cheese is incalculable.

  For cheddar it does but for some like Parmesan which sells around here for about $21/lb :o the savings add up. It's just like making beer, add in the time its about break even but to do it yourself and *know* what is in it - priceless. ;D

What's the longest you've aged cheddar? Some of the sharpest I've had was 18 months.

  About 4 month is all my willpower has allowed any cheddar to age so far :'( The longer it ages the sharper it gets due to some weird scientific things going own that is beyond the Tubercle's comprehension. :D

  I usually age it for 3 or 4 months, open the package (I vacuum seal mine) and try half and repackage the other half and ask Ms. Tubercle to hide it. Got several hid somewhere. That's the frustration...waiting. Kind of like making wine. Things like Parmesan take 2 or 3 years to age properly.

 Since I'm still in the learning stage I have been doing a lot of Gouda and Monterrey Jack which only need 2 months or so, just to nail down the mechanics and process. I can't believe the difference the new press has made. Kind of like going from extract to all grain in a sense.

 I think I'm on my way now....
 

 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on November 06, 2010, 08:42:59 PM
That's awesome tubercle.  You should make another few batches ASAP, it will make it more likely you can wait for 9 or 12 or 18 months to age your cheddar.  :)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on November 13, 2010, 06:07:52 AM
The longest I have aged a cheddar was a year and 6 months and gave it away, just ask Dimik how it tasted. Vacuum sealing is the way to go. At a year it had the same taste annd texture of some 8 year old cheddar. Mine was goat cheese compare to the cows milk.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on November 13, 2010, 03:37:10 PM
Very nice work Tubercle!

I'll be interested in hearing the tasting results in a few months.
Keep up the great work...and be easy on "Little Miss Pressy" now.  8)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: redbeerman on November 17, 2010, 12:53:21 PM
The Tubercle is an awesome cheese dude!  Nice work!  Being the cheese head I am, I may have to take on this hobby as well.  I believe it is a very good thing to know what goes into your food as much as possible.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: 1vertical on November 17, 2010, 02:45:26 PM
Tubercle,
Do you think a similar design that incorporates a small Hydraulic bottle jack for
the variable pressing force ...would be a good thing to design into a small cheese press?

Eh?  ???
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 17, 2010, 06:37:38 PM
Tubercle,
Do you think a similar design that incorporates a small Hydraulic bottle jack for
the variable pressing force ...would be a good thing to design into a small cheese press?

Eh?  ???

Wouldn't that lose pressure overnight, though? Interesting idea if you have a shop press. Harbor Freight has some small ones pretty cheap.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: 1vertical on November 17, 2010, 07:04:59 PM
Tubercle,
Do you think a similar design that incorporates a small Hydraulic bottle jack for
the variable pressing force ...would be a good thing to design into a small cheese press?

Eh?  ???

Wouldn't that lose pressure overnight, though? Interesting idea if you have a shop press. Harbor Freight has some small ones pretty cheap.
Not if the valve wasn't leaking...should hold till that valve is released.  Those H.F. or BIG LOT el cheepo ones are what I was thinking of...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: capozzoli on November 17, 2010, 09:33:43 PM
It told me that what happens is as the cheese becomes compressed the pressure is relieved off of the cheese. It has to be something that will drop and keep the pressure applied as the cheese compresses.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: morticaixavier on November 17, 2010, 11:02:53 PM
It told me that what happens is as the cheese becomes compressed the pressure is relieved off of the cheese. It has to be something that will drop and keep the pressure applied as the cheese compresses.

you should rig something up with CO2 tank pressure that way you can set the regulator and it will maintain the pressure as the cheese compresses.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 17, 2010, 11:13:19 PM
Or a water bucket system with a valve that lets a little bit more water in as it drops. 

However, seems to me the pulley & weight  system  looks to be the simplest and most efficient.

Occam's razor...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: morticaixavier on November 17, 2010, 11:58:38 PM
Or a water bucket system with a valve that lets a little bit more water in as it drops.  

However, seems to me the pulley & weight  system  looks to be the simplest and most efficient.

Occam's razor...

A damn close shave that

whats really more important? simple or cool?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 18, 2010, 12:17:38 AM
The cool factor carries a lot of weight in my book...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 18, 2010, 01:03:45 AM
Thanks for all kind the comments. Making cheese is as fun as brewing. ;D

It told me that what happens is as the cheese becomes compressed the pressure is relieved off of the cheese. It has to be something that will drop and keep the pressure applied as the cheese compresses.

you should rig something up with CO2 tank pressure that way you can set the regulator and it will maintain the pressure as the cheese compresses.

 Cap is right. That's one of the drawbacks of the spring type presses and would be the same with a hydraulic press ( I actually considered this for a while..great minds think alike). The cheese cake compresses a good bit. At first the mold is packed full but after pressing it is only 2/3 height at best. All of the excess whey and air pockets are pressed out. The spring type contraptions have to be screwed down very frequently to keep constant pressure because as the cheese compresses the pressure supplied by the spring diminishes.  A hydraulic press would have the same effect. You need constant pressure, like weights stacked on top so as things compress the weight will follow and keep constant pressure.

  The holy grail of presses uses an air cylinder.
(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/cheesepress003.jpg)
(http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww207/tubercle_photo/DSCN4354JPG_thumb.png)


 It hopes to build one of these someday ;D

 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tschmidlin on November 18, 2010, 05:39:26 AM
It hopes to build one of these someday ;D
I don't see why, what you already built seems awesome enough to me :)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 18, 2010, 05:41:51 AM
Yeah, I was just thinking about the mechanics of this as you described, and honestly, I like your approach the best.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: 1vertical on November 18, 2010, 05:45:28 AM
Thanx Tubercle I had not realized the constant changing as the cheese
lost moisture and airspace .... nice job on your design.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 19, 2010, 05:26:03 PM
 The one thing I like about the pneumatic press is the small foot print. The type I built is fine for me, I just set it on top of my chest freezer/fermenter and let the weight hang off the side so it has room to drop. But for someone with limited space it would be ideal.

 Plus, you know how us brewers/BBQ'rs/breadmakers are - can't leave well enough alone. Always got to be fiddlin' with the latest gadgets and making unnecessary equipment upgrades. Why? Because we can. ;D

 I'm going to stick the the lever type for now though. After 2012 when there are no lights, no phones, no motor cars I can still make cheese!
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on November 19, 2010, 05:39:37 PM
Plus, you know how us brewers/BBQ'rs/breadmakers are - can't leave well enough alone. Always got to be fiddlin' with the latest gadgets and making unnecessary equipment upgrades. Why? Because we can. ;D

This is a factual statement.  ;)

Tubercle has sparked the bluesman's interest in cheesemaking.

So...I just bought this book.

(http://www.cheesesupply.com/images/WB1.jpg)

...and hopefully it will inspire me to pursue this fine craft.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 19, 2010, 06:47:43 PM
What you really need in a spring press design is constant force. But then, of course, adjustment becomes the problem.

Constant Force Springs (http://www.smallparts.com/b/16413841/185-5506186-1119343?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=1MDJ6TCH3B5ERP11819H&pf_rd_m=A2LPUKX2E7NPQV&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000FMUHNI&pf_rd_p=493387771&pf_rd_s=center-1)

Actually, I think adjustment could be solved pretty easily. Just mix & match various tensions according to need.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Code: [Select]
============
 |   ||   |
 @ |----| @
 | |    | |
============
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 19, 2010, 06:54:08 PM
Plus, you know how us brewers/BBQ'rs/breadmakers are - can't leave well enough alone. Always got to be fiddlin' with the latest gadgets and making unnecessary equipment upgrades. Why? Because we can. ;D

This is a factual statement.  ;)

Tubercle has sparked the bluesman's interest in cheesemaking.

So...I just bought this book.

(http://www.cheesesupply.com/images/WB1.jpg)

...and hopefully it will inspire me to pursue this fine craft.

Is this the best book?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 19, 2010, 07:07:40 PM
This book by Ricki Carrol is the one most referred to @ the cheeseforum.org (http://cheeseforum.org). Kind of like we recommend John Palmer for brewing. However, the "experts" on that site point out some discrepancies from time to time but everyone agrees it is the best starting point as far as books go.

 I learned every thing I know (so far - which is actually very little :( ) from just reading the forum. The experts on there are Linuxboy (He's like our Kai - knows all the science stuff), Sailor Con Queso (He's like our Denny (easy and cheap) and Majorvices and has recently started his own professional operation).

 I suggest reading over the forum to get an idea if you want to get involved in this adventure. It has a good beginners & recipe section plus a good search feature.

 Bluesman - welcome to another obsession ;D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 19, 2010, 07:10:26 PM
Thanks tubercle. Another forum...

I will be making cheese. No doubt about that.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 19, 2010, 07:51:38 PM
How much pressure does your average cheese need to be pressed with?

I'm tempted to build a CF spring press just to test the theory.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 19, 2010, 08:32:00 PM
How much pressure does your average cheese need to be pressed with?

I'm tempted to build a CF spring press just to test the theory.

 Seems to be 1.5 to 4 psi depending on the style. Also, the greater the psi the "dryer" the cheese. The more liquid is expelled per time. Still trying to figure all of this out. I read that some of the pro cheddar makers use 10psi+ but they are trying to get the molds emptied a quickly as possible to refill  them for production purposes. I've used 4 psi for a cheddar style for ~ 12 hours and the texture seemed to be OK.

Most recipes use pounds, ie 15lbs, 50 lbs, etc,  but are geared to 4" molds which seem to be the standard for home use. The professionals use a psi factor which is scalable regardless of the mold diameter.

 50 lbs on a 4" mold is ~ 4psi
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 19, 2010, 08:38:41 PM
Awesome. Definitely doable and no conversion needed. I'm going to give this a try.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 19, 2010, 08:41:55 PM
What you really need in a spring press design is constant force. But then, of course, adjustment becomes the problem.

Constant Force Springs (http://www.smallparts.com/b/16413841/185-5506186-1119343?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=1MDJ6TCH3B5ERP11819H&pf_rd_m=A2LPUKX2E7NPQV&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000FMUHNI&pf_rd_p=493387771&pf_rd_s=center-1)

Actually, I think adjustment could be solved pretty easily. Just mix & match various tensions according to need.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Code: [Select]
============
 |   ||   |
 @ |----| @
 | |    | |
============

 OOOOO :o Is this horizonal with spring at each end?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 19, 2010, 09:37:38 PM
Yes... It's a little inaccurate because the horizontal dowel on top that pushes down on the follower would actually go through the center of the CF springs, and you might actually need 2 or more such dowels to get enough springs on to provide the needed force.

Or bigger springs, I guess.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 19, 2010, 10:19:09 PM
http://www.uspto.gov/ ... quick
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 20, 2010, 12:12:34 AM
I doubt I'm the first to think of it. Besides, if I patent anything now it's just one more thing for the attorneys to fight over.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on November 20, 2010, 06:56:08 PM
Bluesman- when you get your copy of Home Cheese Making would you describe the illustrations? I'm wondering if it has any photos.

I downloaded a sample to my Kindle and it looks OK. The illustrations look fine, but in my experience photos do not.

The other problem with the ebook is that I like to thumb through this type of instructional, and that experience is a bit different on a KIndle. But the device is pretty versatile so maybe I ought to just "jump in". ;D
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on November 21, 2010, 01:20:10 AM
Bluesman- when you get your copy of Home Cheese Making would you describe the illustrations? I'm wondering if it has any photos.

I downloaded a sample to my Kindle and it looks OK. The illustrations look fine, but in my experience photos do not.

The other problem with the ebook is that I like to thumb through this type of instructional, and that experience is a bit different on a KIndle. But the device is pretty versatile so maybe I ought to just "jump in". ;D

Here ya go...it's the whole book on Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Home-Cheese-Making-Recipes-Delicious/dp/1580174647/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1290302302&sr=8-1#reader_1580174647
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 21, 2010, 06:21:34 AM
Doing my first mozzarella tomorrow!

Pizza is on the menu. Now if only I made my own pepperoni...
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 24, 2010, 03:16:46 AM
Doing my first mozzarella tomorrow!

Pizza is on the menu. Now if only I made my own pepperoni...

 Well? ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MrNate on November 24, 2010, 04:42:25 AM
Well, it turned out pretty good. Hard to pull when it's so hot, and I had to keep dunking it in hot water and pulling a lot. All in all, and this is kind of hard to admit, but it was completely not worth it for mozzarella. I suppose mostly because I have to bootleg raw milk across the border, and it ain't cheap to start with. I was also surprised by how little cheese you get out of a gallon, although I guess it makes sense. Anyway, I can see myself making aged cheeses, but as it stands I probably paid about $20 and a couple hours of time for something that retails for $2.50. And honestly, I couldn't really tell the difference.

Also, I discovered that we don't have a cheese grater with big holes, so I ended up pulling it apart like string cheese.

The crust turned out pretty well this time. I got some tossing tips from a friend who used to work in a pizza shop. So the crust turned out really thin, but I let it rise, so it ended up like a thin crust on bottom but with a big, puffy outer crust.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on November 24, 2010, 05:13:51 AM
  I started with mozzarella and feel about the same way. A lot of effort and hot hands! It is fun to see the process though. My 9 year old grandson was simply amazed and I got to impress on him that shredded mozzarella does not come from the grocery store in a plastic bag, someone actually makes it. Try explaining that a chicken tender from McDonalds was once a living creature and check out the open mouth and blank stare.

   The aged cheese is what I enjoy also. Wanting to do a big Parmesan if I can hide it for a year or two ::)

To me its just like beer. The process is most of the fun plus I can make what can't be bought. All the spices and peppers and such can be included to make something truly unique.

 I've made a gouda style several times with garlic powder and a dash of liquid smoke. I love it when I give out a small sample and the taster's eyes get big and exclaim "What the Hell is that?". Priceless.  ;D

 Goes good with crackers too. 8)

 Glad your crust turned out OK. Been struggling with that.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: MDixon on November 24, 2010, 01:37:19 PM
I got hot and heavy into cheesemaking a few years ago. It's not as easy as it would seem and you do sink quite a bit of money into it per pound and a chunk of time. In the end I've shelved the equipment and just buy what I want.

FWIW - you can do the easy mozz recipe (surely it can be pulled up on the web) in about a half hour IIRC. Ahh, found it...
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/21.html
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: ryang on December 01, 2010, 04:12:56 PM
Smoked some cheeses for thanksgiving a week prior and then smoked some more on thanksgiving day to serve with dinner.

Extra-sharp vermont cheddar (week-old was better received -- had more complex smoke character.  freshly smoked was intense)
Whole Milk Mozz (my favorite.  didn't have any week old.  the fresh was amazingly smokey)
Mahon (again, the week-old had the majority vote.  very good cheese.  2nd favorite)
Raw milk manchego (didn't absorb as much smoke as others -- hypothesis nearly proven about smoking hard cheeses versus soft cheeses. still a very good cheese)
Provolone (week-old nabbed the majority vote.  good cheese, nothing spectacular.  we had the most of this left over.)
3-yr aged Gouda (darn fine cheese to begin with.  smoking didn't do too much - again on the hard vs soft cheese smoking hypothesis.  this cheese went quick.  subtle smoke.)

Should have taken some pictures.  Week old smoked cheeses were smoked in my grill at about 55F.  Thanksgiving day cheeses were smoked in my parents garage at about 15F (it was -13F outside and didn't really want to smoke in the barn or house).  Not the purest of experiments, but it was neat to see the differences in the week-old vs freshly smoked cheeses.

I got my father-in-law hooked too.  He smoked his first the other night, some muenster.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on December 05, 2010, 04:24:29 AM
What kind of wood did you smoke with? 
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: beerocd on December 05, 2010, 01:29:04 PM
I got hot and heavy into cheesemaking a few years ago. It's not as easy as it would seem and you do sink quite a bit of money into it per pound and a chunk of time. In the end I've shelved the equipment and just buy what I want.

Good learning experience though. First you know more about the cheeses, probably appreciate them more this way. And the prices probably seem a lot more reasonable to you now, knowing what goes into making it in terms of time, ingredients and equipment.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: ryang on December 07, 2010, 02:49:56 PM
What kind of wood did you smoke with? 
A "supermix" - blend of maple, hickory, apple, cherry, and oak.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on December 28, 2010, 03:04:51 AM
Think I'll skip dinner and go right to dessert. Got apples and dried fruit, some jam etc. Oughta be nice on water crackers.

(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_BGa2L64KQdY/TRlRwtaWEsI/AAAAAAAAAbE/pcvPWQ-o2W4/s640/2010-12-27%2020.51.36.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on December 28, 2010, 01:13:22 PM
Delicious looking menu there. Goes good with a cold night by a warm fire.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on January 15, 2011, 02:59:30 AM
Arggh! My first swiss made with goats milk is closer to parmesian with small holes. Tasted a 6 months old talk about patience.LOL Guess I should make some with cows milk.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on January 15, 2011, 02:30:47 PM
Haven't tried a swiss but is on my list.
did the goat milk make it too hard or dry?
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on February 01, 2011, 02:51:25 AM
It dried out, must have lost a bunch of cream while making it is my guess. I maybe pressed to hard. I bet my spring isn't calibrated to the size of the hoop. her is hoping the second one is better.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: euge on September 23, 2012, 02:06:39 PM
A thread resurrection! Rise from the dead old cheese and cheese making thread!

I finally got around to making some cheese! First try was the Mozzarella since it didn't require any aging or special equipment. Took about 7 hours but with minimal effort. A lot of waiting then a step then wait some more... Luckily, maintaining temps was easy- surprising how steady a temp the milk will hold without a burner going.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-typSc_2TH0A/UF8RRWZ-ywI/AAAAAAAAAhs/lfMlhJUUDgs/s611/2012-09-22+16.07.31.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0ysqhnJ5HB0/UF8RSGkjDXI/AAAAAAAAAh0/L3fT8DstXcY/s611/2012-09-22+19.19.34.jpg)

Regardless, it was dead simple and easy and I got 500g of fresh mozzarella out of one gallon of pasteurized, homogenized cow's milk, a bit of calcium chloride, couple drops of liquid rennet and 1/4 tsp thermophillic B culture. Total cost was less than $4. I figure the comparable quality mozz at the grocer costs twice to three times as much. The time cost wacks it totally out of proportion in regards to retail; however, one just has to pay attention to a timer so a trip by the stove once in a while amongst other household tasks (fetching a beer) isn;t that much of a strain IMO.

Stretching the curd was easy- I kept a cool pot of water to dunk my gloved hands into when they got too hot!
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: tubercle on September 23, 2012, 03:49:37 PM
Looks good. I started the same way also. There is a lot of downtime though but you can multi-task during this time with chores, etc....
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: boulderbrewer on September 27, 2012, 04:08:45 AM
Nice work, down time = beverage enjoyment time.
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: redbeerman on September 28, 2012, 04:34:26 PM
Good work, Euge!
Title: Re: Cheese and Cheese making
Post by: bluesman on September 28, 2012, 04:39:14 PM
Looks great euge.  Very inspiring. :)

I love a fresh Caprese salad now and again.