Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: stellaandstout on October 20, 2010, 06:17:13 PM

Title: Black Ale recipe
Post by: stellaandstout on October 20, 2010, 06:17:13 PM
Hello I am looking for a all grain black ale recipe.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on October 20, 2010, 06:36:04 PM
There're a couple clone recipes here.

http://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/article/indices/11-beer-styles/2072-birth-of-a-new-style-cascadian-dark-ale

It's basicallly an APA or an IPA recipe with a small addition of carafa or a similiar dark malt used to darken the beer.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 20, 2010, 06:41:17 PM
He said black ale, not stupid named rip off of an east coast style ale.  That "Cascadian Dark Ale" crap can take a hike.  

There's some pretty decent looking 1554 clone recipes kicking around somewhere...can't seem to find them at the moment.

Sorry Bluesman, no hostility towards you, I just hate that whole "Cascadian Dark Ale" business....
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 21, 2010, 04:04:38 AM
Here's my 1554 clone recipe.  I got assistance from the guys at New Belgium on this one.  I've yet to brew it, but I'm thinkin' it's pretty close.  And yes, the guy insisted on quite a lot of carapils.

1554 clone
Schwarzbier (Black Beer)

 
Type: All Grain
 Date: 2/13/2010
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
 Brewer: Jesse
Boil Size: 6.74 gal Asst Brewer:  
Boil Time: 60 min  Equipment: RadaR's Brewery  
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0  Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00
Taste Notes:  
  
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 72.73 %
2.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.55 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3.64 %
0.25 lb Debittered black malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.82 %
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
1.00 oz Williamette [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 17.1 IBU
2 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager  

 
  
Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.063 SG
 Measured Original Gravity: 0.000 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG Measured Final Gravity: 0.000 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.90 %  Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.00 %
Bitterness: 32.6 IBU Calories: 0 cal/pint
Est Color: 22.3 SRM Color: Color  
 
  
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 13.75 lb
Sparge Water: 4.09 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
  
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
45 min Mash In Add 17.19 qt of water at 170.5 F 158.0 F

 
  
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 4.2 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 52.0 F  
  
Notes
 
 
Created with BeerSmith
 

 

 

 
 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: stellaandstout on October 21, 2010, 04:56:54 AM
Thanks beersk and bluesman, I will give that one a shot. One question can I use a ale yeast instead of the lager yeast.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: 1vertical on October 21, 2010, 05:11:17 AM
I think I will give that 1554 a shot some time and see how it stax up....thank you
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: skyler on October 21, 2010, 07:52:50 AM
Also, you could brew any schwarzbier recipe with US-05 and get a black ale out of it.

If it's a Black IPA you're looking for, I would recommend this general grain bill:

6 gal recipe (bc the hops will absorb a half gallon or so of the wort)

10-12 lbs US 2-row
1-2 lbs Munich 10L
1 lb Crystal 40-60L
1.5 lb Carafa Special II (added at sparge)

Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 21, 2010, 02:47:54 PM
Thanks beersk and bluesman, I will give that one a shot. One question can I use a ale yeast instead of the lager yeast.


You certainly could do that.  It won't taste like 1554, but it'll still be good I'm sure.  They've specified that they use a lager yeast fermented at ale temps.  I heard it was the Bohemian Lager yeast.  But 1554 is one damn fine beer, I must say.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: micsager on October 23, 2010, 03:41:08 PM
He said black ale, not stupid named rip off of an east coast style ale.  That "Cascadian Dark Ale" crap can take a hike.  

There's some pretty decent looking 1554 clone recipes kicking around somewhere...can't seem to find them at the moment.

Sorry Bluesman, no hostility towards you, I just hate that whole "Cascadian Dark Ale" business....

Why so hostile?  It's just beer.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: kerneldustjacket on October 23, 2010, 04:39:27 PM
I've tried to look at all the info on this style lately, and man is it a contentious topic! Not just regards what defines the style, but what to "officially" call it!
All sides have made some reasonable arguments, to wit:

-  It was "born" in Vermont, so a nod to that fact should be made
-  It primarily uses hops from the Pacific Northwest, i.e. Cascadia, so that should be part of its name
-  American Brown Ale used to be called "Texas Brown Ale," so any "new" style should lose its regional link as well, so call it "American Black Ale"
-  For purposes of the BJCP style designations, it needs a name to aid competition directors with placing it in flights where several subcategories and "lumped" together

What a mess!
I think one thing is clear: it IS a style that's here to stay. Seems its been around since the mid-eighties; the recent explosion of its popularity is no doubt tied to the very healthy craft-brewing culture we are now blessed with.

I think competition-entering brewers should be happy if the style is honored with it's own BJCP sub-style: a slight error in brewing or recipe formulation and you have an American Stout entry!

PS: I live in Savannah, Georgia...I understand "rivalries" -- such as SEC football -- and "regional hostilities" -- Damn Yankee invaders! -- so I'm not surprised to see some "vested interests" and "mild hostility" arise when it comes to naming this beast.

Ain't it a shame we can't just sit down and ply each other with our homebrews and discuss a solution? We could at least catch a good buzz while disagreeing...and who has a problem with a good buzz?

Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 25, 2010, 09:07:04 PM
He said black ale, not stupid named rip off of an east coast style ale.  That "Cascadian Dark Ale" crap can take a hike. 

There's some pretty decent looking 1554 clone recipes kicking around somewhere...can't seem to find them at the moment.

Sorry Bluesman, no hostility towards you, I just hate that whole "Cascadian Dark Ale" business....

Why so hostile?  It's just beer.

I know, I didn't mean to be so hostile, but firm.  Cascadian Dark Ale just plain sounds stupid.  India Black Ale or India Dark Ale sounds much better, because not all dark IPAs are going to be made with American C hops from the Northwest.  Why should it be limited to one region of the US that obviously is trying to claim it as their original style, when it is not?

I made one of these myself and they're tasty, but never will I call it Cascadian Dark Ale, just like the Sears Tower is still the Sears Tower, not Willis Tower.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: violaleebrews on October 28, 2010, 12:16:49 PM
beersk may have some anger issues to deal with, but i do think he's got a good point on the naming of the style.  my local pub has been making a "black IPA"  for quite some time and i live in holland, mi.  i agree it should be called an "india black ale".

he he. if it's made with cannibis could it be called an "indica pale (or black) ale"?   ;)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: jeffy on October 28, 2010, 12:53:29 PM
beersk may have some anger issues to deal with, but i do think he's got a good point on the naming of the style.  my local pub has been making a "black IPA"  for quite some time and i live in holland, mi.  i agree it should be called an "india black ale".

he he. if it's made with cannibis could it be called an "indica pale (or black) ale"?   ;)
New Holland's Black IPA is one of the few that I've had and I enjoyed it.  Just a little roasty.  I recently had the Black
Watch IPA (supposedly the first black IPA) at the Vermont Pub and Brewery, which they had on cask.  It tasted almost like a hoppy dry American stout.  Overwhelmingly roasty and very bitter.  I thought for a sec that they had served me the wrong beer because the other cask had an Oatmeal Stout on, so I tried it again the next day.  Wow.  Too roasty for me.  Way different than any of the other black IPA's I've had.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 28, 2010, 02:10:08 PM
beersk may have some anger issues to deal with, but i do think he's got a good point on the naming of the style.  my local pub has been making a "black IPA"  for quite some time and i live in holland, mi.  i agree it should be called an "india black ale".

he he. if it's made with cannibis could it be called an "indica pale (or black) ale"?   ;)

I've never been the most subtle at getting my point across but I'm workin' on it.  What a wonderful life it would be if we were all the people we strive to be so early on in life...
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: micsager on October 28, 2010, 05:28:18 PM
beersk may have some anger issues to deal with, but i do think he's got a good point on the naming of the style.  my local pub has been making a "black IPA"  for quite some time and i live in holland, mi.  i agree it should be called an "india black ale".

he he. if it's made with cannibis could it be called an "indica pale (or black) ale"?   ;)

I've never been the most subtle at getting my point across but I'm workin' on it.  What a wonderful life it would be if we were all the people we strive to be so early on in life...

No worries dude. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: violaleebrews on October 28, 2010, 08:50:08 PM
no worries, beersk.  i had to poke fun.  i'd expect it if it were me :)  besides, it's BEEEEER, we can't help but to feel passionate about it.

Quote
New Holland's Black IPA is one of the few that I've had and I enjoyed it.  Just a little roasty.

i do know that the black hatter at new holland does not use carafa.  instead they use special b at the end of the mash.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 28, 2010, 08:57:37 PM
Why do you have to use carafa?  I used 1/4 of black malt in my last IBA.  It was tasty.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tumarkin on October 28, 2010, 09:05:52 PM
Why do you have to use carafa?  I used 1/4 of black malt in my last IBA.  It was tasty.

Carafa, being debittered, will provide more restrained roastiness, bitterness, etc. It minimizes the flavor contribution that you get by using dark malts. The other approach is to use Sinamar, which is essentially a cold extract of carafa. The idea being to get the black color with minimal dark roastiness.

It's this concept that many people have trouble with regarding these beers..... what's the point if it's just color and not flavor? I don't have an answer to that. Still trying to expolre more commercial examples (and homebrewed as well) to get my head around this 'style'.  The naming thing is another whole issue, but I'm more concerned with flavor/brewing issues. The name will shake out over time.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: micsager on October 29, 2010, 11:54:06 AM
Why do you have to use carafa?  I used 1/4 of black malt in my last IBA.  It was tasty.

Carafa, being debittered, will provide more restrained roastiness, bitterness, etc. It minimizes the flavor contribution that you get by using dark malts. The other approach is to use Sinamar, which is essentially a cold extract of carafa. The idea being to get the black color with minimal dark roastiness.

It's this concept that many people have trouble with regarding these beers..... what's the point if it's just color and not flavor? I don't have an answer to that. Still trying to expolre more commercial examples (and homebrewed as well) to get my head around this 'style'.  The naming thing is another whole issue, but I'm more concerned with flavor/brewing issues. The name will shake out over time.

I enjoy this style from Iron Horse in Ellensberg, wa, and Dechuttes, in Oregon.  The Alaskan version isn't too good.  nor the one from 21A.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on October 29, 2010, 02:24:04 PM
Why do you have to use carafa?  I used 1/4 of black malt in my last IBA.  It was tasty.

Carafa, being debittered, will provide more restrained roastiness, bitterness, etc. It minimizes the flavor contribution that you get by using dark malts. The other approach is to use Sinamar, which is essentially a cold extract of carafa. The idea being to get the black color with minimal dark roastiness.

It's this concept that many people have trouble with regarding these beers..... what's the point if it's just color and not flavor? I don't have an answer to that. Still trying to expolre more commercial examples (and homebrewed as well) to get my head around this 'style'.  The naming thing is another whole issue, but I'm more concerned with flavor/brewing issues. The name will shake out over time.

Well I'm kind of settled on as to what an India Black Ale is to me, profile-wise.  I feel it should have a slight roasted flavor in the after taste from the dark/roasted malts, but it should also have the flavor and mouth feel of an IPA.  I suppose like any style the profile can vary quite a bit, but this is what an India Black Ale is to me.  Black IPA is a contradiction in terms, it's like saying pale stout, which you never see.  Why would you want to make an IPA dark and not have any of that tasty roasted flavor present?  Beats me...
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: micsager on October 29, 2010, 10:51:51 PM
Agreed.  I started with W10 recipe, from BYO.  But now add 2 ounces of Sorachi hops at 60 minutes, and 2 ounces of Oak cubes in the fermenter.

I've done a few blind taste tests with the Dechutte's CDA (their name, not mine) and folks have struggled to tell the difference. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: kerneldustjacket on November 01, 2010, 10:29:10 PM
I feel it should have a slight roasted flavor in the after taste from the dark/roasted malts, but it should also have the flavor and mouth feel of an IPA....Black IPA is a contradiction in terms, it's like saying pale stout, which you never see.  Why would you want to make an IPA dark and not have any of that tasty roasted flavor present?  Beats me...
I agree with your description of what one should be like...seems sensible that there should be some slight influence from the dark malts. Just consider the darker beers from Munich...Munich Dunkel (14-28 SRM) and Traditional Bock (14-22 SRM). In the BJCP guidelines, both can have small amounts of roasted malts to adjust color and maybe add a hint of roastiness. Similar notes for Schwarzbier. But note that there should not be a pronounced roastiness in any of these three dark lager sub-styles.

Both also mention that "moderate carbonate water may be used." I think it's obvious that Munich brewed darker beers to accommodate their water profile...at least before water adjustment was a reasonable practice. So maybe this style is a boon for those brewers in areas with water profiles that compare to Munich, and they don't treat their water. Could this be a "reasonable excuse" to employ grains that add color with little flavor contribution? (While also avoiding figuring out water chemistry and salt additions to boot.)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: The Professor on November 05, 2010, 01:02:49 AM
..What a mess!.   I think one thing is clear: it IS a style that's here to stay. Seems its been around since the mid-eighties; the recent explosion of its popularity is no doubt tied to the very healthy craft-brewing culture we are now blessed with.

With regard to the original topic, I have no recipe to offer other than to just make a dark ale and hop it up.

I'll agree  that Black IPA, India Black Ale (or, god help us, "Cascadian Dark Ale") is here to stay, and certainly popularized by  the current culture of brewing...but all the arguing I've read around the net over who "invented" the "style" just seems quite funny to me, actually...even funnier than the claims by those who say they "invented"  something that probably actually dates back to the 1700's.

Besides, true beer "styles" aren't "invented" anyway...they evolve over time. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on November 05, 2010, 01:27:06 AM
Here's an article from The Brewers Association that discusses dark ale.

http://www.craftbeer.com/pages/stories/craft-beer-muses/show?title=india-black-ale-a-rose-by-any-other-name

...and the debate continues.  8)

I like the BA'S definition best.  At least for my personal taste.

"American-style India Black Ale has medium high to high hop bitterness, flavor and aroma with medium-high alcohol content, balanced with a medium body. The style is further characterized by a moderate degree of caramel malt character and medium to strong dark roasted malt flavor and aroma. High astringency and high degree of burnt roast malt character should be absent. Fruity, floral and herbal character from hops of all origins may contribute to aroma and flavor."

Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on November 05, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
The OP must be frustrated with this thread.  He was asking for a black ale recipe and it turned into an India Black Ale debate.  Sorry OP!  Could  be the reason he still only has 2 posts!
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on November 06, 2010, 12:44:32 AM
The OP must be frustrated with this thread.  He was asking for a black ale recipe and it turned into an India Black Ale debate.  Sorry OP!  Could  be the reason he still only has 2 posts!

Yea...your right.

I'll fix that.

Here's my creation. I plan to try this one before the year is out.  ;)


India Black Ale
Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 11.00 gal
Boil Size: 13.25 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
 
Ingredients
 
22.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 81.48 %
2.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 7.41 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.70 %
1.00 lb Carafa I (319.0 SRM) Grain 3.70 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.70 %
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.40 %] (Dry Hop)
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.20 %] (Dry Hop)
2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] (60 min) Hops 41.1 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (30 min) Hops 11.4 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [5.70 %] (20 min) Hops 4.6 IBU
1.00 oz Cascade [7.20 %] (15 min) Hops 4.7 IBU
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [9.30 %] (10 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
1.00 oz Centennial [11.20 %] (5 min) Hops 3.0 IBU
1.00 oz Simcoe [12.40 %] (0 min) Hops - 
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
1.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 5.0 min) Misc 
11.00 gal Poland Spring (R) Water 
1 Pkgs Pacman Yeast (Wyeast) [Starter 6000 ml] Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.069 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.84 %  Actual Alcohol by Vol: 7.70 %
Bitterness: 69.2 IBU
Est Color: 20 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Mash PH: 5.4 PH
 
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 30 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F
10 min Sparge Add 30 qt of water at 186.3 F 168.0 F

 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: Mikey on November 06, 2010, 01:50:21 AM
Why should his post count make any difference? I'd be more than happy to give him a recipe, if I had one.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tschmidlin on November 06, 2010, 05:43:33 AM
The OP must be frustrated with this thread.  He was asking for a black ale recipe and it turned into an India Black Ale debate.  Sorry OP!  Could  be the reason he still only has 2 posts!

Yea...your right.

I'll fix that.

Here's my creation. I plan to try this one before the year is out.  ;)


India Black Ale
I'm not sure you fixed it blues - your recipe is not necessarily for the black ale the OP is looking for.  ;D

I don't know what the OP means by black ale.  Is it black like a black lager compared to a light lager?  Well, then what is he trying to make a black version of?  There's lots of kinds of ales.  I don't know if we can automatically assume he means IBA/CDA.  Maybe just a black version of a pale ale?  Amber?  Bitter?  I don't know.

In any event, I don't have a recipe.  Just rousing the rabble.  :)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on November 06, 2010, 10:46:38 AM
The OP must be frustrated with this thread.  He was asking for a black ale recipe and it turned into an India Black Ale debate.  Sorry OP!  Could  be the reason he still only has 2 posts!

Yea...your right.

I'll fix that.

Here's my creation. I plan to try this one before the year is out.  ;)


India Black Ale
I'm not sure you fixed it blues - your recipe is not necessarily for the black ale the OP is looking for.  ;D

I don't know what the OP means by black ale.  Is it black like a black lager compared to a light lager?  Well, then what is he trying to make a black version of?  There's lots of kinds of ales.  I don't know if we can automatically assume he means IBA/CDA.  Maybe just a black version of a pale ale?  Amber?  Bitter?  I don't know.

In any event, I don't have a recipe.  Just rousing the rabble.  :)

I don't know exactly what he was looking for either.

But at least he has a Black Ale recipe now.  :P
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: chumley on November 09, 2010, 11:57:42 PM
Back when I started brewing in 1990, a black ale was called a "porter".
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: denny on November 10, 2010, 02:23:44 AM
Back when I started brewing in 1990, a black ale was called a "porter".

(http://www.brews-bros.com/public/style_emoticons/default/cheers.gif)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on November 10, 2010, 02:34:32 AM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: micsager on November 10, 2010, 08:49:13 PM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years.  Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 09:29:48 PM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years.  Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?
I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer.  A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that.  But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about.  Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is:  Is it easily confused with another?  Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: jeffy on November 10, 2010, 09:34:28 PM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years.  Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?
I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer.  A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that.  But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about.  Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is:  Is it easily confused with another?  Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?

Tom's absolutely right.  If I go into a brewpub and see CDA on the board, up until recently (when Zymurgy came out a couple months ago) I wouldn't have any idea what sort of beer I'd be getting.  I would certainly know what to expect if ordering a Black IPA.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on November 10, 2010, 10:09:36 PM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years.  Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?
I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer.  A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that.  But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about.  Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is:  Is it easily confused with another?  Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?
Yes, this is true.  Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale.  Shenanigans! 
But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: morticaixavier on November 10, 2010, 11:20:15 PM
I never really thought about the hype that exsists over this debate but it definitely strikes a chord in the homebrewing community.

Perhaps we can all agree that its a dark beer.  8)

I've only been homebrewing about 8 years.  Was there copntroversy like this as other styles were introduced?
I've noticed some around other styles, and it usually comes about when a proposed name favors one region over another for a new (as opposed to historical) style of beer.  A lot of people around here call it a CDA, so I go with that.  But if you call it a Black IPA they still know what you're talking about.  Even India Black Ale is understood, but IBA is too easy to confuse with IPA or India Brown Ale.

All I care about in a style name is:  Is it easily confused with another?  Will it succinctly give me a description of the beer?
Yes, this is true.  Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale.  Shenanigans! 
But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish. 

How about a Black India Ale (BIA) to distinguish from an India Brown ale?
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2010, 11:29:03 PM
Yes, this is true.  Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale.  Shenanigans! 
But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish. 
FWIW, I've never heard a NW brewer claim to have invented it or claim that it was invented in the NW.  But there's a lot of them here, it seems like every brewery makes one.  I assume that's where it came from.  Bouef.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tumarkin on November 11, 2010, 12:17:48 AM
Yes, this is true.  Cascadian Dark Ale still sounds idiotic to me and with a bit of arrogance, with the claim of the Northwest originating the idea of a hoppy dark ale.  Shenanigans! 
But I'd still take CDA over Black IPA, that is even more foolish. 
FWIW, I've never heard a NW brewer claim to have invented it or claim that it was invented in the NW.  But there's a lot of them here, it seems like every brewery makes one.  I assume that's where it came from.  Bouef.

From the articles & beer blogs that I've read, it seems like a NW beer writer, Abram Goldman-Armstrong, is the one who's championing the name CDA and the idea that the style was a NW creation He cites John Maier's Skull Splitter as being the seminal beer & The 2003 Oregon Brewers Fest being the time & place it was introduced. The brewers may or may not be claiming to have invented the style, but NW beer writers certainly are. I know that Greg Noonan was brewing his Blackwatch IPA in the mid-90's. I had the opportunity to try it when he brought some of that beer to the Sunshine Challenge in Orlando where he was a guest speaker on Strong Scotch Ales.

However, the black ipa 'style' goes back waaay before that. Check out this passage from the 1888 book - "The Theory and Practice of Modern Brewing" by Frank Faulkner, 1888, pages 259-260. I guess 'modern' must be a moving target :D  The key part is the last sentence or two where he talks about it being a variant of the Burton ales (hoppy pale ales & IPA's). Anyway, thought it was an interesting reference that shows this certainly isn't a new style. It may be popular in the NW, but certainly didn't start there. Here's the passage......
 
"The varying classes of black beer are produced in several distinct centres of brewing by as many different methods, but, as a rule, we have two main principles in operation—the use of a soft water in conjunction with malt of distinctly heavy character, not inefficiently grown, but at the same time not by necessity so fully vegetated as that employed in the production of pale or stock beers.

The possibility of using such material turns upon the fact that a large proportion of the malt used consists of highly caramelised varieties, and, as before explained, caramelised bodies possess a marked preservative or antiseptic character, while the black beers produced are not always required to keep for any very lengthy period. To begin with, then, it is not customary to employ saline waters, or, in other words, if such water be employed the black beer produced is deficient in that roundness and fulness of palate taste that is considered so necessary a feature, while I can example this by referring to the black beer produced at Burton, which has been universally described as a mere black pale ale—i.e., though black in colour, its palate taste reminds one very strongly of the pale beers produced by Burton firms. It will be quite understood that I am not decrying this article; it may and does suit many palate tastes, and is thought a great deal of on the Continent, but at the same time it differs very widely from the accepted standard quality of a black beer as specified."

 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tschmidlin on November 11, 2010, 12:26:40 AM
That's awesome Mark, thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on December 06, 2010, 04:40:57 PM
I think I will give that 1554 a shot some time and see how it stax up....thank you
Did you end up brewing this?
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: 1vertical on December 06, 2010, 05:29:11 PM
I think I will give that 1554 a shot some time and see how it stax up....thank you
Did you end up brewing this?
Not yet beersk. I have a couple lagers I want to do while the ambient is cold. This
may show up after I get those done.  And for now, I need to kick one more keg
so that I can pull it all together, I need a landing spot for those lagers.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: skyler on December 06, 2010, 06:46:30 PM
The brewers may or may not be claiming to have invented the style, but NW beer writers certainly are.

I noticed this trend of adding "Northwest" or "Oregon" to everything while I lived in Portland. I think it stems primarily from PNW-ers being really proud of where they live (understandably) and of Oregonians sometimes having California-envy. Case in point: "Pacific Northwest Cuisine" is identical to the "California Cuisine" invented in the 1970's by Alice Waters, Wolfgang Puck, and the like. But PNW food writers and chefs will say that, because they use all or mostly PNW ingredients, they are making PNW Cuisine and not California Cuisine or "New American Cuisine."

Personally, I don't really care that CDA implies the beer "belongs" to the PNW. It is FAR more popular there than it is here in California or in NYC (though I can't speak for anywhere else, I assume Black IPA is somewhat obscure elsewhere, too). Almost every brewery I knew in Portland had a Black IPA - with some having revolving Black IPA's so they could test out which one worked. If the push was to call it a "Northwestern Dark Ale" I wouldn't find it so annoying. But "Cascadian" is a dumb word that means nothing. Outside of the PNW not enough people know what Cascadian means for it to be worthy indicator of a beer style. It sounds like the beer is made from waterfalls or something. So I call it Black IPA - silly or not, people know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: 1vertical on December 06, 2010, 07:40:23 PM
beersk, I re-read your post and recipe and you specify lager yeast. The heading of this thread
is ALE...so there I did the freudian thing and did not think that one of the lagers I could brew
could be your 1554 recipe since it does indeed use lager yeast.  I wanted to brew a maibock
and then something on the yeast cake from that...may just work quite well....and fyi, I have
2 packets of S-189 reserved for these beers.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beveragebob on December 11, 2010, 08:21:45 AM
We could call it a DBNRHA :D

Dark but not roasty hoppy ale.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on December 13, 2010, 04:22:02 PM
beersk, I re-read your post and recipe and you specify lager yeast. The heading of this thread
is ALE...so there I did the freudian thing and did not think that one of the lagers I could brew
could be your 1554 recipe since it does indeed use lager yeast.  I wanted to brew a maibock
and then something on the yeast cake from that...may just work quite well....and fyi, I have
2 packets of S-189 reserved for these beers.

Well it is a lager yeast brewed at ale temps.  They use a European lager yeast, pretty sure it's Bohemian lager yeast, fermented at ale temps.  So you could do it.  So it's kind of an ale...hybrid type thing.

Look it here: http://www.newbelgium.com/beer/detail.aspx?id=5ac72c92-fd87-4ec7-858d-3380c8d465d8
This will provide some more insight.  I didn't realize they use Target hops.  But the grain bill looks pretty close.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: 1vertical on December 13, 2010, 06:41:39 PM
Yep thanx, I have had this beer and it is good for me... ;D
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 22, 2011, 02:45:40 PM
Well fellas, I brewed this up a few weeks ago and it's now been in the keg for a week.  I did a compare last night and it's pretty close!  Mine is slightly darker and if I could, I'd lager it for a few weeks to get a crisper flavor.  Here's the recipe I brewed:
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.0 SRM) Grain 72.73 %
2.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.55 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3.64 %
0.25 lb Debittered black malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.82 %
1.00 oz Target hops approx. 9% IBU
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager with 2 liter starter

Came out to slightly higher ABV at around 5.8%.  
Next time I think I'll go lighter on either the chocolate malt or the debittered black, or both.  Otherwise, I think I just about nailed it.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: bluesman on March 22, 2011, 02:56:28 PM
Well fellas, I brewed this up a few weeks ago and it's now been in the keg for a week.  I did a compare last night and it's pretty close!  Mine is slightly darker and if I could, I'd lager it for a few weeks to get a crisper flavor.  Here's the recipe I brewed:
10.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.0 SRM) Grain 72.73 %
2.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 14.55 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 7.27 %
0.50 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3.64 %
0.25 lb Debittered black malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.82 %
1.00 oz Target hops approx. 9% IBU
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) Yeast-Lager with 2 liter starter

Came out to slightly higher ABV at around 5.8%.  
Next time I think I'll go lighter on either the chocolate malt or the debittered black, or both.  Otherwise, I think I just about nailed it.

What was your OG and FG?
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: 1vertical on March 22, 2011, 03:13:30 PM
I was gonna attempt this then when using my yeast on the
second batch, it under attenuated and so I changed my mind until
I get a good batch of lager yeast ready again.....dang
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 22, 2011, 04:36:09 PM
The OG was 1.060, I think and the FG was 1.015.  I'm pretty sure that's right, I don't have my BeerSmith here at work, so I'm not 100% sure on that, but that's what I remember off the top of my head.  I think 1554 has changed a bit as NB has grown, it's a little lighter in color and not quite as robust, but it's still a damn tasty beer.  

Pretty sure my basement temp is in the upper 50s right now also, so it didn't ferment too warm.  Probably just outside the upper range for lagers. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: WDE97 on March 30, 2011, 09:54:08 PM
Hello I am looking for a all grain black ale recipe.

Don't want to get into the naming debate, but here is my Black IPA/CDA recipe.  I brewed this in early February and I think it's my favorite beer that I've brewed.  It is really smooth, with a light roast taste that blends well with the hops. It has a big hop boquet and flavor, but isn't super bitter. The bitterness seems to meld really well with the roast and malt flavors. 

Ingredients:
10.0 lb American 2-row
1.5 lb Carafa Special® TYPE II
1.0 lb German Light Munich
1.0 lb Crystal Malt 40°L
0.5 lb Chocolate Wheat Malt
0.5 lb BlackPrinz
1.0 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added during boil, boiled 35 min
0.5 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 35 min
0.5 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
1.0 oz Amarillo (8.5%) -added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.5 oz Cascade (5.5%) -added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.5 oz Simcoe (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 10 min
0.5 oz Cascade (5.5%) -steeped after boil
0.5 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - steeped after boil
0.5 oz Columbus (15.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
0.5 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
WYeast 1056 American Ale – prepared 1L starter

OG was 1.068 and FG was 1.015.
I did this as a single infusion mash at 151F for 60min and did a batch sparge.
Don't remember exactly what the fermentation temp was, but it was around 66F.
BeerTools estimates the IBU at 99.5 though I know this is high.
I will be brewing this again next weekend, but will bump the Carafa II to 2.0 lbs and will be using Midnight wheat instead of Chocolate Wheat.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: gordonstrong on March 31, 2011, 12:59:33 AM
Alright, WTF is BlackPrinz?

(Nice Steven Wright quote.)
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beveragebob on March 31, 2011, 03:41:44 AM
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_BlackprinzMalt.pdf
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: WDE97 on March 31, 2011, 05:02:36 AM
Alright, WTF is BlackPrinz?

(Nice Steven Wright quote.)

Glad you liked the quote. It's one of my favorites, and describes my attempts at fly fishing perfectly.   ;D

bob, thanks for the link.  I originally stumbled across BlackPrinz at Midwestsupplies and thought I would try it.  I was looking for something to add that dark roast flavor and color to my CDA/BIPA without the harshness of Black Patent, etc.  I think it worked great and plan to keep using it. 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: tygo on March 31, 2011, 10:39:40 AM
It's a Briess seasonal malt.  http://www.midwestsupplies.com/blackprinzr-malt-briess.html

Probably no longer available unless they come out with it again later this year.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 31, 2011, 01:52:11 PM
Midwest is where I stumbled across BlackPrinz also.  It's a nice malt.  I used a whole pound in my India Black Ale.  But this thread is about black ale recipes, not the hoppy dark beer style (see thread title).
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: gordonstrong on March 31, 2011, 02:12:12 PM
Ah.  It's the Briess version of the Belgian debittered black malt.  Good to see there are other options.  It's often hard to find the Carafa special in all the grades.

Thanks.

I remember first seeing Steven Wright in Desperately Seeking Susan.  Hilarious deadpan cameo.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 31, 2011, 03:45:18 PM
Ah.  It's the Briess version of the Belgian debittered black malt.  Good to see there are other options.  It's often hard to find the Carafa special in all the grades.

Thanks.

I remember first seeing Steven Wright in Desperately Seeking Susan.  Hilarious deadpan cameo.
Says it's discontinued now.  Damn it!
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: WDE97 on March 31, 2011, 04:14:40 PM

Says it's discontinued now.  Damn it!
[/quote]

Where did you see that it's discontinued? That would be really disappointing.  Or is it just that this year's supply is gone? 
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 31, 2011, 05:58:57 PM
On Midwest's site.  It's out of stock, and when you click on it, it says "discontinued".  Balls!
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: WDE97 on March 31, 2011, 07:12:11 PM
On Midwest's site.  It's out of stock, and when you click on it, it says "discontinued".  Balls!

Thanks beersk. That's sad to see.  It is still available at Rebel Brewer, though I don't know how much they have left. I think I need to order a few more pounds before its all gone.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: beersk on March 31, 2011, 08:51:15 PM
I'm just going to go with debittered black malt, I think it's essentially the same thing.
Title: Re: Black Ale recipe
Post by: maxieboy on March 31, 2011, 11:26:08 PM
On Midwest's site.  It's out of stock, and when you click on it, it says "discontinued".  Balls!

In your pants!