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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: beveragebob on November 05, 2010, 07:36:10 PM

Title: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 05, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
Here's my BIPA recipe I tweaked a bit. I'm thinking next time using 80L Crystal malt for a slightly more amber/red color....Let me know your thoughts:

Ballantine IPA Project Beer

A
ProMash
Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

07-0  India Pale Ale, India Pale Ale

Min OG:  1.050   Max OG:  1.075
Min IBU:    40   Max IBU:    60
Min Clr:     8   Max Clr:    14  Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):         5.50    Wort Size (Gal):    5.50
Total Grain (Lbs):       14.25
Anticipated OG:          1.077    Plato:             18.70
Anticipated SRM:           8.1
Anticipated IBU:          62.1
Brewhouse Efficiency:       80 %
Wort Boil Time:             90    Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate:       1.66    Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size:    7.99    Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity:      1.053    SG          13.13  Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used:   Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Tinseth
Tinseth Concentration Factor: 1.30

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops:         2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops:      10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 73.7    10.50 lbs. Pale Malt(6-row)              America        1.035      2
 14.0     2.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize)           America        1.040      1
  7.0     1.00 lbs. Corn Sugar                                   1.047      0
  5.3     0.75 lbs. Crystal 60L                   America        1.034     60

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1.00 oz.    Cluster                           Whole    6.50  20.1  90 min.
  1.00 oz.    Bullion                           Pellet   7.00  22.2  60 min.
  0.50 oz.    Cluster                           Whole    6.50   7.2  30 min.
  0.50 oz.    Bullion                           Pellet   7.00   8.5  30 min.
  0.50 oz.    Bullion                           Pellet   7.00   4.0  10 min.
  2.00 oz.    Czech Saaz                        Whole    3.50   0.0  Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

ECY Newark Ale Yeast


Water Profile
-------------

Profile:           Burton On Trent
Profile known for: Strong Pale Ales

Calcium(Ca):         268.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg):        62.0 ppm
Sodium(Na):           30.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4):        638.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl):         36.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3):   141.0 ppm

pH: 8.33


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs:   13.25
Water Qts:   20.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal:    5.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.51 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 148  Time:  90
Mash-out Rest Temp :         168  Time:  10
Sparge Temp :                180  Time:  40


Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.06 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 08, 2010, 01:29:00 AM
Should turn out pretty similar to mine.
I'm with you on the color... Although I got some nice carmelization color contribution. 

Here's mine:
A Handwritten Report
5lb 2 Row
4lb Maris Otter
2lbs Flaked Corn
0.5lb Crystal 60
0.5lb Carapils
0.5lb Flaked Barley


1oz Cluster 90min
1oz Brewers Gold 60min
1oz Brewers Gold 30min
1oz East Kent Golding 0min

Still have yet to figure out dry hops/hop oil.
Are you oaking?

Here's to waiting...
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 08, 2010, 05:45:07 PM
It's still in the primary. I'll oak upon kegging. I'm looking into one of those home distillation setups and going to try my hand at making my own distilled hop oils. I know Hopunion makes them but, they're wholesale only and can't find their products. anywhere.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 08, 2010, 06:04:05 PM
I hear you on the hop oil.  Only stuff I've seen is from health supplement places.  Any idea there?  I've never seen it in person, much less had experience with it.  It's not too descript on the internet.
I don't think I'll try distilling my own hop oils.  

What are you planning for oak?  I've got an idea, just not sure what I'll do.  I'm brewing a burton this week to throw on the yeast cake from this, so I figure I need to figure that out pretty quick.  Pretty much just bumped the ingredients up to get about 1.090 or so (darker crystal to get a more ruby red).  Same hops at 90 and 60, bumped up an oz on 30 and 0.

Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: denny on November 08, 2010, 06:04:49 PM
How about something like this, Bob?

http://www.stillspirits.com/

LHBS here carries them.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: bluesman on November 08, 2010, 06:11:20 PM
It's a shame there isn't any more of this beer around to do a blind taste test. Interesting looking recipe.
I'd love to try some.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 08, 2010, 06:35:06 PM
Thanks for the link DC, I'll definately check it out. Another option is to build my own which would cost about 1/3 of the already built ones. I'm leaning that way although I've never sweated copper before .....time to learn!

Ryan,
According to everything I've read, Ballantine used UNLINED Oak Tanks...not barrels for the IPA and Burton. So I am going to use ~ 2 ounces per keg of Med toasted American Oak.....I've got the cubes but, I'm sure chips(messy when cleaning the mt keg) or staves would do.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: uthristy on November 09, 2010, 02:11:19 PM
I hear you on the hop oil.  Only stuff I've seen is from health supplement places.  Any idea there?  I've never seen it in person, much less had experience with it.  It's not too descript on the internet.
I don't think I'll try distilling my own hop oils.



Pick your oil:>
http://www.brouwland.com/shop/catproducts.asp?cfid=4&id=341&pid=338

AVAILABLE IN 5 AROMAS

"Citrussy"
"Flower"
"Herbal"
"Hoppy"
"Woody"
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 09, 2010, 04:52:57 PM
UFFDA!!  All said and done, you're looking at $52 for a 50ml bottle to get over the pond.   :o

I'm not sure I can justify that.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 09, 2010, 08:48:18 PM
OUCH! That IS a lot of dough for aroma. Maybe I'll shoot an email to Hopunion or maybe some of our pro brewer friends can help us out. I've got someone I know up in Oregon that may be able to score some. Otherwise, I'll continue to pursue my own extractions.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: tschmidlin on November 09, 2010, 09:41:13 PM
Try this:
http://www.hoptech.com/cart/cart.php?target=category&category_id=266

I bought some of the "Late Hop Essences" when my wife was pregnant, so I could hop up the NA beers for her.  She never liked them though, with or without the extract.

They've got these, which are not the same as what I bought and I have no experience with them:
Pure East Kent Goldings Hop Oil
Pure Cascade Hop Oil
Pure Fuggle Hop Oil
Pure Willamette Hop Oil

It's pricey, but should be considerably cheaper than shipping from the UK.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 09, 2010, 10:10:58 PM
Try this:
http://www.hoptech.com/cart/cart.php?target=category&category_id=266

I bought some of the "Late Hop Essences" when my wife was pregnant, so I could hop up the NA beers for her.  She never liked them though, with or without the extract.

They've got these, which are not the same as what I bought and I have no experience with them:
Pure East Kent Goldings Hop Oil
Pure Cascade Hop Oil
Pure Fuggle Hop Oil
Pure Willamette Hop Oil

It's pricey, but should be considerably cheaper than shipping from the UK.

So she didn't like them in NA beers... did you try it out in any other beers?  The oils look interesting...
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: EHall on November 09, 2010, 10:18:09 PM
I bought the Iso Alpha Extract from these guys earlier this year to bitter up a a brew that used homegrown hops... didn't get enough bitterness out of it... but it definately bittered up the beer but it just didn't taste 'normal'... its hard to explain. Its not the same kind of taste/bitterness that you get naturally from adding the bittering addition... All I can say is no matter what you get, start off very small/low and build it up, it was a pain cause I was adding to the keg that was already carb'd up but I"m glad I just didn't start dumping, I measured it out 1 teaspoon at a time...
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: tschmidlin on November 09, 2010, 11:21:46 PM
So she didn't like them in NA beers... did you try it out in any other beers?  The oils look interesting...
I tried them in a few things, but they didn't taste quite right.  Nothing bad exactly, but not quite the pleasant hoppiness I hoped for. It could be because of dosing problems one glass at a time as opposed to in an whole keg, I'm pretty sure they were over done.

Hopefully someone else has some experience with these and can provide better advice.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: 1vertical on November 13, 2010, 01:27:08 AM
How about something like this, Bob?

http://www.stillspirits.com/

LHBS here carries them.

AHEM....clears throat  ???  Recalls a recent padlock

How about hopshots from NB?
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: EHall on November 14, 2010, 01:23:12 AM
I brew my clone tomorrow...
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 16, 2010, 04:09:25 PM
I was perusing an older issue of zymurgy last night (July/Aug 2010).

I saw in Chalie P's article/recipe for Carla's Oat Brown that he utilizes hop oil... and prepares it for use using oil and beer.  I looked for a contact for Charlie to seek his input and wisdom concerning our hop oil conundrum here for the historic Ballantine beers.  Alas, I could not find one.  Anyone have a contact?  Is it really as simple as charlie@brewersassociation.org?  I am wondering
1. where he sources his oil
2. deeper explaination into the preparation
3. his opinion on the flavor/aroma contributions the oil makes
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: denny on November 16, 2010, 04:23:40 PM
That is the correct email addy.  You could also try a PM to charliepapazian.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: abraxas on November 16, 2010, 04:30:44 PM
http://www.freshops.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=MERCHOIL

I have some but haven't tried it in a beer yet.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 18, 2010, 09:14:59 AM
The more I contemplate, read and understand what Ballantine did, the more I find myself thinking that sticking with dry hopping is the way to go. Even Ballantine added copious amounts of the oil extracts over time because even those faded. Besides, I really do not believe I'm going to age a Ballantine Burton Ale Clone for 20 years in Oak, more like 5 years max..maybe. I think just dry hopping every 3 months for a year with the BIPA Clone is more feasible and hopefully rewarding. These guys did it for a living and had the equipment, procedures and the means to make beers we may never be able to completely recreate but, hey if we come close and make truly stellar brews from their inspiration, we are great brewers in our own right! No applause please! ;D
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: ryang on November 18, 2010, 02:03:53 PM
Ha! Yeah, I'm leaning that way as well.  It was my wife really though... "Why don't you just dry hop the crap out of it and not worry about that stupid oil!"
And yeah, I'm not about to age my burton for 20 yrs.  Completely infeasible (at least for me right now).  Ties back into the fact that this is not my living and don't have the equipment/procedures they did.

I've already picked up extra hops for dry hopping anyway, so I figure an oz here and there will eventually add up and not hit my pocketbook all at once.  

What are you thinking in terms of hop variety of dry hopping?  just saaz like in your recipe?  I was thinking of using the same 3 that I had in the boil... EKG, cluster, and brewers gold.  I picked up a bunch of EKG and cluster already.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: jeffy on November 18, 2010, 03:39:40 PM
Ha! Yeah, I'm leaning that way as well.  It was my wife really though... "Why don't you just dry hop the crap out of it and not worry about that stupid oil!"
And yeah, I'm not about to age my burton for 20 yrs.  Completely infeasible (at least for me right now).  Ties back into the fact that this is not my living and don't have the equipment/procedures they did.

I've already picked up extra hops for dry hopping anyway, so I figure an oz here and there will eventually add up and not hit my pocketbook all at once.  

What are you thinking in terms of hop variety of dry hopping?  just saaz like in your recipe?  I was thinking of using the same 3 that I had in the boil... EKG, cluster, and brewers gold.  I picked up a bunch of EKG and cluster already.
Personally I would think that Clusters would make a very bad dry hop, but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: tschmidlin on November 18, 2010, 05:19:39 PM
I think you're going to lose a lot of the beer to the dry hops, that's the advantage of the oil.   :-\
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: The Professor on November 18, 2010, 07:09:21 PM
I think you're going to lose a lot of the beer to the dry hops, that's the advantage of the oil.   :-\

Plus the oil will provide a much more intense aroma, like the BIPA had, and without the grassy tastes that whole hops can add.  Ballantine used both dry hopping and hop oil.  You can skip the oil, but not if you're looking to recreate the original product.  Those who never tasted the original probably wouldn't miss it.  But I drank so much of this stuff back in the day that to me, it would be the missing link.

There are different types of hop oil, so it's important to get (or attempt to make) the proper type...there are specific oils made for bittering, for 'late hop' flavor, and strictly for aroma.  Ballantine made their own, and unfortunately none of the former Bally workers I talked to could supply any specifics on the setup or methods used to extract and distill.  I'm guessing that there was ethanol involved for extraction which was then redistilled, most likely under a vacuum (thus allowing far lower evaporation temperature and less damage to the aromatics).  But that's just speculation.

As far as the aging, I agree that 20 years for the Burton isn't very practical for hombrewing  unless you're ambitious and start young! (my Burton gets an average of 1 or 2 years and I'm pretty satisfied with that.)
But that one year that was part of  BIPA's production isn't hard to do on a homebrew level.   The long aging is a very important aspect to consider when trying to  re-create this beer.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 18, 2010, 08:31:11 PM
Yes, I agree Professor. I was looking at the method Ballantine probably used last night and it seems equipment challenging. Low temp high pressure C02 extraction with vacuum seems to extract the heart of the aroma without damaging it. Here's a pretty good link of the discussion from back in May of this year on the HBD:
http://hbd.org/discus/messages/48727/49438.html?1274280026

I guess I'll revisit Hop Unions Methods and see if I can acquire some. The consensus is high temp H20 extraction methods do not equate to the hop aroma derived from dry hopping or C02 extraction methods.

tschmidlin, if I have to drink a couple of pints from a 10 gallon keg every three months to make room for more hops, I'll sacrifice myself  :D

ryang, I'm going to be using Cluster(they got a bad rap) and Czech Saaz.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: tschmidlin on November 18, 2010, 08:46:43 PM
tschmidlin, if I have to drink a couple of pints from a 10 gallon keg every three months to make room for more hops, I'll sacrifice myself  :D
It's not the room in the keg, it's the beer absorbed by the hops ;)
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 18, 2010, 09:16:24 PM
I'm not worried about that. I'm still working angles to see what I wind up really doing. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on November 20, 2010, 02:06:28 AM
I think I'm going to give the blended kind of these a try:

http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=261_271&products_id=1514

Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: beveragebob on December 04, 2010, 02:20:29 AM
OK, so I ordered those hop aroma tabs and have read through all the instructions but, I don't see how many to add to a 10 gallon keg. They come in a 5 pack and I did just keg my BIPA clone on 4 oz of American Medium toasted oak cubes so, I'll probably add all 5 next year two weeks before I hook the keg up to the tap. BTW, that place has allot of useful stuff at great prices including hops, I ordered 2- 8 oz  EKG pellet hops for 8 bucks a piece. They also have WL yeasts that are drop shipped from White Labs separately so, no issues on freshness. Oh yeah they have a huge range of kegs and supplies and replacement parts I'm glad I found them on an advert on homebrew talk forum. They email you all the shipping info as it goes out. Shipping is pretty cheap also..only 10 bucks and I got a bunch of other things too.  I'm going to toot their horn so others can discover what a great place this is so, hopefully they'll be around for a while. One more thing... a brand new "refurbished"(I know it sounds contradictory...you'll have to read the details) for $165...that's incredible these days.......NAYYY:
http://www.chicompany.net/

Don't forget to answer my question if you have experience with these tabs.....Thanx!
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: EHall on December 16, 2010, 01:56:08 AM
williams brewing suggests 1-2 quarter sized aroma tabs per 5 gals, at eob or in keg...

I tapped my clone last week, I think it came out pretty good. I used a recipe very close to what ryang posted. I used EKG to dry hop. No oak. Its got that woodsy flavor from the hops, a light sweetness from the malt and corn in the background, very smooth.
I like it, I'll prob brew this one again. The only thing that bugs me is I can't find anyone that I come across locally whos either had it or can remember it... I don't mingle with folks 55 and older much... but it would be nice to find someone who drank it back in the 60s/70s and would have some recollection of it to give feedback...
Title: Re: Ballantine IPA Clone Tweaked
Post by: tschmidlin on December 16, 2010, 04:04:59 AM
You could try taking some samples to the VFW ;)