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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 03:07:09 PM

Title: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 03:07:09 PM
I have this bag of Fawcett&Sons Maris Otter pale malt and every beer I brew from it is hazy. I just looked through my notes and I always noted that I was fairly cloudy after 4 or more month which forced me to fine it with gelatin.

This is the malt spec:

Maris Otter Pale Malt
Maltster: Thomas Fawcett & Sons
DBCG: 79.9%
MC: 3.6 %
DP Linter: 52
Total protein: 9.56%
SNR: 37.9 %
Homogenity 97.8%


I noticed the low modification index (SNR) and the 1st pair of beers was a APA where I brewed one with single infusion and the other one with a 30 min protein rest at 54 C followed by a single temp sacc rest. Both beers came out cloudy.

Then I brewed another 2 beers but I use single infusion mashing for both beers and added gelatin later.

I forgot about this for my last beer with this malt, an EPA, and the beer is cloudy again. My original intentrion for this pair of beers was to compare closed to open fermentation. While I’ll still do that I’ll also give the next beer a more intensive mash. A decoction mash with a 30 min protein rest at 48 C, sounds about right.

The haze is not a yeast haze. I looked at it under the microscope. It’s comprised of very fine particles that are a bit less than 1 um in size.
I’m able to brew clear beers with all the other malts I have used before and this malt is puzzling me.

Kai


Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: MDixon on December 23, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
Remember they don't measure every single sack. It is entirely possible you have a sack which might not meet specs. I remember trying to order some  grain once and was told they would not sell it since people (read as breweries/brewpubs) were having problems getting that particular malt to convert.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 04:58:02 PM
Good point. I also think that I may have an odd batch of malt since I don’t hear other brewer’s complain about this malt.

I’ll dedicate the rest of this malt to trying to brew a clear beer using techniques that are known to improve clarity:

- clear run-off doesn’t work
- boiling at a pH ~5.5-5.4 and ~5.2-5.3 did not work
- simple protein rest at 54 C  for 30 min did not work
- intensive protein rest with decoction will be tested
- use of Irish Moss. I’ll try this on a later batch even though I haven’t used it for the last 100 batches

What else could you think of?

I believe that the haze already exists after chilling the wort and is distinct from cold break. Cold break is much larger (~10-30 um) and can also be seen under the microscope. I have left over wort samples that I can evaluate.

The good thing is that the beers are fine once I use gelatin.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: MDixon on December 23, 2010, 05:33:51 PM
Put 'em in a ceramic stein...no haze issues to note ;)
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: bluesman on December 23, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
If you are adamant about removing the haze then I would suggest filtering the beer but I have an IPA brewed with TFMO on tap that is slightly hazy and it doesn't bother me in the sense that is a really fine tasting IPA. Is it just chill haze or ?
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 06:31:22 PM
Is it just chill haze or ?

I's a permanent haze.

I don't like cloudy beer unless it goes with the style and want to understand how to consistently make clear beer w/o the need for fining or filtering.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: bluesman on December 23, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
Is it just chill haze or ?

I's a permanent haze.

I don't like cloudy beer unless it goes with the style and want to understand how to consistently make clear beer w/o the need for fining or filtering.

Kai

As I understand it...permanent haze is typical protein–polyphenol haze consisted of about 50% protein, 25% polyphenol and the remaining 25% from polysaccharides and metals. This is induced by 0.1% total Nitrogen present in the beer.

Check out this article Kai.

http://scienceray.com/chemistry/nitrogenous-compounds-can-combine-with-polyphenols-to-form-complex-responsible-of-haze-in-beer/



Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: gordonstrong on December 23, 2010, 09:21:53 PM
I've had problem with Munton's Maris Otter before, including haze.  Did you get the expected extract with it?  When I had the haze problems, I also had lower than expected extract.  It happened on more than one bag, so I just concluded that they make crappy malt and spent more time getting better ones.  But I haven't heard people complain about Fawcett in the same way, so I'm assuming you got a bad bag.

I basically got rid of it by making dark beers and ignoring the haze problem.  I sometimes would get a lesser amount of haze from some continental Pils malts, so I normally throw in a short (10 min or so) rest at 131F/55C.  Not sure if this would help with this problem, but you might give it a shot.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 09:59:20 PM
Did you get the expected extract with it?

Gordon, Thanks for the input.

I got less than usual but when I adjusted for the DBCG number given in the malt analysis I ended up getting within the margin of error that I expect in my measurements. I do a mash gravity test and have to add that getting close to 100% conversion efficiency took longer than expected. Even though I raised the mash temp to ~160F after 30 min at 150F. At 160F I had to hold the mash for another hour to get close to 100% conversion. Other lightly colored malts don't tend to be that difficult.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: mthogan1997 on December 23, 2010, 10:06:29 PM
I have had consistent haze problems with Fawcett&Sons Maris Otter pale malt. Never could figure out why, so I quit using it.

Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 23, 2010, 10:21:18 PM
I searched the web on this issue and found this interesting comment from A.J.:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16744&start=0#p170494:
"Did the malt happen to be Maris Otter? It will sometimes throw haze if you don't do a protein rest. I had 2 batches done on the same day (which is why I skipped the protein rest) which were hazy to the last drop (I kept some for almost a year). The haze was protein globules and PVPP wouldn't touch it. From the size of the particles (which should have settled over the course of a year) and the immunity to PVPP I have to think there was something unusual in the electrical configuration of those proteins. I had some people confirm that you must do a protein rest with this cultivar and other say they have never had this problem with it."

He talks about protein globules which might be what I'm seeing under the microscope.

I doubt I'll use this malt again after I'm done with the current bag.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: johnf on December 23, 2010, 10:44:31 PM
I searched the web on this issue and found this interesting comment from A.J.:

http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16744&start=0#p170494:
"Did the malt happen to be Maris Otter? It will sometimes throw haze if you don't do a protein rest. I had 2 batches done on the same day (which is why I skipped the protein rest) which were hazy to the last drop (I kept some for almost a year). The haze was protein globules and PVPP wouldn't touch it. From the size of the particles (which should have settled over the course of a year) and the immunity to PVPP I have to think there was something unusual in the electrical configuration of those proteins. I had some people confirm that you must do a protein rest with this cultivar and other say they have never had this problem with it."

He talks about protein globules which might be what I'm seeing under the microscope.

I doubt I'll use this malt again after I'm done with the current bag.

Kai

I've seen that comment from AJ elsewhere.

I've used Crisp and Simpsons with no haze issues. I suspect it is malting process related and not cultivar related.

I was surprised to see the analysis you posted as English malts are supposed to be more modified than others and suitable for single infusion. I would have a hard time buying Continental malt that had lower protein modification. I'm curious how long the acrospire is, eg did they achieve low protein modification in an otherwise fully modified malt? If so, why?
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: MDixon on December 24, 2010, 01:46:42 AM
I'm of the camp who have never had a problem with it...and I use Fawcett...
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 24, 2010, 01:59:20 AM
Not haze, but one bag of Crisp MO would stick, every time i brewed with it.  When I was at Sierra Nevada Beer Camp, the pilot bewer Scott Jennings said that MO could be "sticky", and I said "Yes I know that!'.   MO is a great variety of malt, but we all see differences in malsters, and lot variations.

 
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: johnf on December 24, 2010, 03:15:42 AM
Not haze, but one bag of Crisp MO would stick, every time i brewed with it.  When I was at Sierra Nevada Beer Camp, the pilot bewer Scott Jennings said that MO could be "sticky", and I said "Yes I know that!'.   MO is a great variety of malt, but we all see differences in malsters, and lot variations.

 

When I did single infusion, MO gave me crazy dough balls. I dough in below gelatinization temp now and obviously never have dough balls.

MO gripe = MO gripe + 1

Worth it though.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on December 31, 2010, 05:22:49 PM
An intensive protein rest at 48 C for 30 min and another one at 52 C for 15 min didn't help either. The beer is pretty much as cloudy as the previous one. The same goes for the two wort samples that I have in the fridge. Neither of them wants to settle clear.

Here is a pic of the beer brewed with the protein rest under the microscope:

(http://braukaiser.com/images/misc_forum/Batch_110_day_5.JPG)

You can see the yeast cells. There are about 0.6 Million/ml left in suspension. But the haze comes from all the much smaller particles. Those particles are smaller than 1 um (the grid lines are 50 um apart) and can't be filtered out with a simple spun filter.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: brushvalleybrewer on December 31, 2010, 10:23:13 PM
If it helps any, the beer I have on tap now was made with Crisp Maris Otter and is hazy, as well.

Do you suppose it was something about this year’s crop?  ???
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: malzig on January 01, 2011, 07:53:15 PM
This is my usual base malt for British and American ales.  I've made both hazy and clear beers with it.  I had a good run of Amber and Brown Ales that came out crystal clear from my last sack, before it ran out.  It looks like I bought it at the end of 2009.

I'm an all Pilsner and Munich Malt brewery this Winter, though.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: chumley on January 03, 2011, 08:54:39 PM
Posted on: December 31, 2010, 03:23:13 PMPosted by: brushvalleybrewer 
Insert Quote
If it helps any, the beer I have on tap now was made with Crisp Maris Otter and is hazy, as well.
_______________________________________________________________________
 
I just kegged a 100% Crisp Maris Otter beer that is clear as a bell
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: lazydog79 on January 04, 2011, 01:37:50 PM
You know, I brewed an Old Ale - NB's Winter Warmer kit - with MO.  It is hazy as hell.  I've been trying to figure out what I did.  Wonder if that's what it was   ???
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on January 04, 2011, 02:40:55 PM
You know, I brewed an Old Ale - NB's Winter Warmer kit - with MO.  It is hazy as hell.  I've been trying to figure out what I did.  Wonder if that's what it was   ???

It's quite possible that we have the same problem. From the looks of it haze with MO is hit or miss. Jamil mentions MO quite a bit but never complained about it being excessively hazy.

The haze does respond reasonably well to fining with gelatin. I'd give that a try.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: lazydog79 on January 04, 2011, 03:14:48 PM
I'll keep that in mind for the next batch.  I tend to use MO as my base in British styles a lot and have not had that problem before.  Should it happen again, I'll whack it with some gelatin.  I'm usually not too terribly concerned with the cosmetics - just as long as it tastes good, but I am a perfectionist ;)
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: nichenke on January 11, 2011, 10:01:10 PM
Kai - are you adding whirfloc/irish moss to the boil at all ? Your initial comments seem to indicate "no", and if so I'd be curious on why not.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: tomsawyer on January 11, 2011, 10:20:17 PM
I use Irish moss in my british bitters done with MO and still have some haze, but I'm not really trying to clear it and I get it on tap fast.  It does clear with time in the keg at cold temps, those last few pints are pretty clear.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: gimmeales on January 11, 2011, 10:32:36 PM
Just brewed an all Crisp MO IPA over the weekend - the boil looked like egg-drop soup, something I've not seen since last brewing with a larger % of Vienna malts.  It got me about the possible excessive protein that's been suggested.  I also used a medium flocculating yeast, so might be hard to ultimately tell what the culprit was if it turns out cloudy.

At any rate, kegged in the fridge, my guess is it will be clear as a bell in 1.5-2 wks.  Will see if I'm right...
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on January 12, 2011, 03:43:02 AM
Kai - are you adding whirfloc/irish moss to the boil at all ? Your initial comments seem to indicate "no", and if so I'd be curious on why not.

I have stopped using it a while back and didn't see a change in my beers. When I brew with this malt again I'll have to give it a try.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Mark G on February 23, 2011, 03:26:42 PM
So to resurrect an old thread, I brewed up a bitter yesterday using Crisp Maris Otter. I had lots of dough balls at dough-in, followed by significant protein coagulation by the end of the mash. Runoff was very cloudy, even after roughly double my normal vorlauf. I also noticed a much larger volume of break at the end of the boil. I used Whirlfloc in the boil as I always do. Normally when I brew a 6 gal batch, I get 5.25-5.5 gallons into the fermentor, leaving most of the break material behind. This time I barely made 5 gal. And, of course, the wort was cloudy going into the fermentor. I'll report back after fermentation is complete, but I'll be going out to pick up some gelatin in the meantime.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on February 23, 2011, 04:15:39 PM
I am waiting for your results.

With our club’s recent bulk buy I bought a bag of Bairds Pale malt. The malt analysis sheet lists the barley cultivar as Maris Otter. I picked this malt b/c it had the lowest average protein content compared to the other pale malts. Protein is 9.8 % (10 – 12% is typical for other malts) and SNR is 45% (data sheet (http://www.bfd.org/MaltAnalysis/Jan11/BairdMOPA.pdf)).. My hope is that with these numbers I will have no haze issues.
The first batch, an IPA, is fermenting right now.

On the other hand, the batch of Fawcett&Son MO, the same type of malt that gave me problems before, that was bought at that bulk buy has 9.6% protein and 41% SNR (data sheet (http://www.bfd.org/MaltAnalysis/Jan11/MOPA.pdf)). My batch had 36% SNR and I don’t remember the protein content. Based on this the current F&S MO batch may not show this problem.

I’ll have to check who in our club bought this malt.

Kai

Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kirk on February 23, 2011, 08:28:12 PM
The haze does respond reasonably well to fining with gelatin. I'd give that a try.

Kai

By the way, Kai, I just tried the gelatin in a pair of finished, carbonated beers, a porter and schwarzbier, identical malt builds, with Crisp Mo as the base, brewed with soft, calcium deficient water, single infusion, unknown ph, except that 5.2 was used, and both had haze.  After just a few days, they were clear, and the flavor improved as well.  Thanks!  Super, easy remedy.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: gimmeales on February 23, 2011, 11:48:38 PM
My bag is evidently one of these cloudy ones too (Crisp MO - meant to check the lot no).  Was reserving judgement as the first beer I made was fermented with US-05 which is not a good flocculator, but my current Old Ale fermented with 1318 (highly flocculant) is still very cloudy after 5 weeks in primary.

Gelatin worked a charm for me for the US-05 - now a very bright, brilliant beer.  Appears I'll be doing the same for the Old Ale as well.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: davisdandrew on February 26, 2011, 05:51:55 AM
I recently had a haze problem in  a beer brewed with marris otter malt. I brewed a mild (OG 1.037 156f infusion with mashout) and this beer has a very bad permenant haze. I cold lagered the beer in a keg for three + weeks and saw no clarification. I have been all grain brewing for years and have never seen a haze like this. I cant say the malt was the only factor in causing the haze though because I brewed other beers with it that cleared up nicely.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: redbeerman on February 27, 2011, 12:17:43 AM
I have a mild on tap that I used TFMO for the base malt and WLP002 for the yeast.  The beer had a little haze at first but cleared up very well after a few weeks.  I use this malt as a base for most of my ales and have seen haze issues on and off.  I use gelatin if the haze gets on my nerves.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Pi on March 01, 2011, 07:29:51 PM
I have never used gelatin. How much? and when?
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: gimmeales on March 04, 2011, 10:54:05 PM
I followed the procedure I found in an archived thread (note the usefulness of the SEARCH feature above :)), by 'blooming' one tsp unflavored gelatin in ~8oz water at ~170f degrees - and stir gently into the beer with a sanitized implement. 

Note:  gelatin only works in combination with cold.  I just learned (again through this forum) that gelatin won't clear a beer at room temp.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Mark G on March 05, 2011, 01:50:04 AM
So to resurrect an old thread, I brewed up a bitter yesterday using Crisp Maris Otter. I had lots of dough balls at dough-in, followed by significant protein coagulation by the end of the mash. Runoff was very cloudy, even after roughly double my normal vorlauf. I also noticed a much larger volume of break at the end of the boil. I used Whirlfloc in the boil as I always do. Normally when I brew a 6 gal batch, I get 5.25-5.5 gallons into the fermentor, leaving most of the break material behind. This time I barely made 5 gal. And, of course, the wort was cloudy going into the fermentor. I'll report back after fermentation is complete, but I'll be going out to pick up some gelatin in the meantime.
I kegged this beer a couple days ago, and as expected, it was still a bit hazy, although not as bad as I initially feared. I used WLP005, and based on past experience, it should have been much clearer coming out of the fermentor. I added gelatin to the keg yesterday, so hopefully that clears it up.
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: Kaiser on March 05, 2011, 02:26:30 AM
I now have a bag of Baird Pale Malt that happens to be MO (I thought it wasn't) and I selected it for its low protein content. The first beer made with it, an IPA fermented with WLP001, doesn't want to clear either. Am I cursed with getting "hazy" MO malt? I can male beers from Pilsner malt and they drop clear pretty quickly.

Kai
Title: Re: Haze issues with a bag of Maris Otter malt
Post by: gmac on March 05, 2011, 10:19:11 PM
I've had problem with Munton's Maris Otter before, including haze.  
I just concluded that they make crappy malt and spent more time getting better ones. 

Darn it.  I just got 55 lbs of Munton's MO.  Wish I'd read this first.