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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: stlaleman on December 28, 2010, 10:04:48 PM

Title: Competition Ethics
Post by: stlaleman on December 28, 2010, 10:04:48 PM
I made a melomel with 7 kinds of fruit, two of them dominate, a few are subtle, a couple very faint. The guidelines say one should enter with all fruits listed, would you enter it that way. I can see the scoresheet, "could barely taste fruit 6" minus 10 points on flavor. What would you do?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: EHall on December 28, 2010, 10:22:01 PM
Put everything down that you used.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: oscarvan on December 28, 2010, 10:24:54 PM
Just as in cooking, not everything that is used can be tasted, even though it is part of the result. Doesn't a judge know this?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: jeffy on December 28, 2010, 10:27:15 PM
Only list those ingredients that are apparent to the senses.  It doesn't matter what went into it as much as what they are going to be judging it as.  
There is no rule that I know of that says you have to list everything you put into a batch.
It will be judged, as you say, with respect to what the judges taste and smell, so only list those things that are apparent.  
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: EHall on December 28, 2010, 10:39:26 PM
He asked about ethics... not what can/can't be tasted... all those judges taste things differntly... and some flavors build up/die off with age... put everything down you used.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bonjour on December 28, 2010, 10:51:18 PM
I would call it a multi-fruit melomel predominately fruit x and y with a variety of other (un-named) fruits adding a very subtle complexity
or something like that.

They are looking to stop you from entering a "fruit melomel" where you are not specifying any fruit.

Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: lonnie mac on December 28, 2010, 11:04:02 PM
Funny, I made a Mel several years ago. Took a 1st in a rather large comp. I used a few fruits, but in the end not a single sole could point to what I used. (Hardly even me included)

I entered it as "Merry Berry" and listed one of the main fruits I used, blueberry. Overall as judges, if it is a damn good Mel, it will win.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 28, 2010, 11:15:24 PM
I think it depends on your motive for entering the competition.  If you are looking for feedback and brewing/meadmaking advise put down all of the ingredients.  If you are looking to win an award put down whatever it is you think the judges will want to hear, so they will be inclined to score higher.

After years of entering, judging and organizing homebrew competitions, I have come to have low regard for them.  Consistancy is nearly nonexistant, and it's pretty much all about egos.  I have a box full of awards and judge pins that do nothing but collect dust.  I look at them and think,"What was that all about?"

The biggest reward for me is when someone holds out their empty glass and says, "That was delicious!  May I have some more please?"
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 12:02:53 AM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: lonnie mac on December 29, 2010, 12:03:36 AM
I think it depends on your motive for entering the competition.  If you are looking for feedback and brewing/meadmaking advise put down all of the ingredients.  If you are looking to win an award put down whatever it is you think the judges will want to hear, so they will be inclined to score higher.

After years of entering, judging and organizing homebrew competitions, I have come to have low regard for them.  Consistancy is nearly nonexistant, and it's pretty much all about egos.  I have a box full of awards and judge pins that do nothing but collect dust.  I look at them and think,"What was that all about?"

The biggest reward for me is when someone holds out their empty glass and says, "That was delicious!  May I have some more please?"

Honestly my friend, if your logic is true and it's all about egos, then neither reason of entering you mention would make a bit of difference. Over my years of entering, judging and organizing homebrew competitions, I have found pretty much an honest group of people that simply want's the best beer on the table to win. As it is subjectable, of course there are inconsistencies between comps, but I have never seen two different comps with the exact beers entered too...
I want the best beer (that is reasonably within guidelines) on the table to win, which makes your last point exactly right. :)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: stlaleman on December 29, 2010, 12:14:33 AM
Only list those ingredients that are apparent to the senses.  It doesn't matter what went into it as much as what they are going to be judging it as.  
There is no rule that I know of that says you have to list everything you put into a batch.
It will be judged, as you say, with respect to what the judges taste and smell, so only list those things that are apparent.  

The guidelines clearly state to list all fruit used. So there is a rule. There have been many ethics questions lately at comps I have been involved in. Situation.....a Russian Imperial Stout is entered, the brewer states that he added coffee and chocolate to his brew. How do you judge this? Is it misentered, should be a cat 23 or fruit veggie, or spice beer (not sure where coffee and chocolate fit in)? Or since the guidelines call for those flavors (even tho they blame the darker malts for contributing) judge it as is ignoring the non-conventional ingrediants?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 12:32:04 AM
I think it depends on your motive for entering the competition.  If you are looking for feedback and brewing/meadmaking advise put down all of the ingredients.  If you are looking to win an award put down whatever it is you think the judges will want to hear, so they will be inclined to score higher.

After years of entering, judging and organizing homebrew competitions, I have come to have low regard for them.  Consistancy is nearly nonexistant, and it's pretty much all about egos.  I have a box full of awards and judge pins that do nothing but collect dust.  I look at them and think,"What was that all about?"

The biggest reward for me is when someone holds out their empty glass and says, "That was delicious!  May I have some more please?"

Your friends may not tell you that they like/dislike something, because they don't want to hurt your feelings, but watch how many times they go back to the tap. Now that's a TRUE reward.

I offered a pseudo lager as one of the beers I tapped over the holidays. I had a distant relative tell me it was the best beer they had ever had. From the many times he said it and the many trips he went back to the tap, It wasn't just about getting drunk, because he brought some Jack with him. I knew he was being honest. That's worth a 1000 cheap a$$ ribbons, IMO.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: lonnie mac on December 29, 2010, 01:10:48 AM
I think it depends on your motive for entering the competition.  If you are looking for feedback and brewing/meadmaking advise put down all of the ingredients.  If you are looking to win an award put down whatever it is you think the judges will want to hear, so they will be inclined to score higher.

After years of entering, judging and organizing homebrew competitions, I have come to have low regard for them.  Consistancy is nearly nonexistant, and it's pretty much all about egos.  I have a box full of awards and judge pins that do nothing but collect dust.  I look at them and think,"What was that all about?"

The biggest reward for me is when someone holds out their empty glass and says, "That was delicious!  May I have some more please?"

Your friends may not tell you that they like/dislike something, because they don't want to hurt your feelings, but watch how many times they go back to the tap. Now that's a TRUE reward.

I offered a pseudo lager as one of the beers I tapped over the holidays. I had a distant relative tell me it was the best beer they had ever had. From the many times he said it and the many trips he went back to the tap, It wasn't just about getting drunk, because he brought some Jack with him. I knew he was being honest. That's worth a 1000 cheap a$$ ribbons, IMO.

Understood that you don't care about comps. Some do, and that is the premise of the OP wanting to enter a comp. I have seen judges do the same exact thing as you are describing hitting a tap over and over because it's simply a great beer. And it wasn't mine sitting in the tap right next to it... Or sometimes it is. That's how the game is played when you want to play it. :)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: kerneldustjacket on December 29, 2010, 01:26:00 AM
I'd say put down all the fruits used...with the understanding that, as some have already said, some judges will be critical because they fail to "taste or smell" so and so fruit...but some judges will give you useful feedback.
I enjoy competitions, both as a judge and entrant. They can be a lot of fun if you actually attend the event. But I know not to expect perfect judging skills...as you often have judges who are still learning the skill, just as you have homebrewers entering who are working on their skills. But judges have no chance to improve unless there are beers entered to judge...and those beers have factual information about their ingredients or processes (only where required, of course).

If you manage a ribbon, that's nice, it doesn't hurt anything....as said already, with time it may fade in importance. But if you do get a scoresheet from a truly qualified judge, then you may find you're getting some very useful feedback. But there are no guaranties.

And +1,000,000 to what punatic and Mikey said: seeing someone really and truly enjoy YOUR homebrew is a huge reward. I value that more than ribbons...but that is a personal choice, just as anyone else can choose to persue ribbons for the fun of it.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: markaberrant on December 29, 2010, 02:27:31 AM
If you are entering comps "for the ribbons" then you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: jeffy on December 29, 2010, 02:43:46 AM
Only list those ingredients that are apparent to the senses.  It doesn't matter what went into it as much as what they are going to be judging it as.  
There is no rule that I know of that says you have to list everything you put into a batch.
It will be judged, as you say, with respect to what the judges taste and smell, so only list those things that are apparent.  

The guidelines clearly state to list all fruit used. So there is a rule. There have been many ethics questions lately at comps I have been involved in. Situation.....a Russian Imperial Stout is entered, the brewer states that he added coffee and chocolate to his brew. How do you judge this? Is it misentered, should be a cat 23 or fruit veggie, or spice beer (not sure where coffee and chocolate fit in)? Or since the guidelines call for those flavors (even tho they blame the darker malts for contributing) judge it as is ignoring the non-conventional ingrediants?

If a brewer entered a Russian Imperial Stout then there should be no place on the entry form or on the pull sheet given to the judges to state that he added any coffee or chocolate.  How would the judges be informed of that?  If it were stated on the entry form, then perhaps the category should have been "specialty" instead of RIS.  Those ingredients, if not mentioned, may add some complexity to the beer, which could be a good thing.
OK I just referenced the bjcp guidelines for melomel  and it says, "entrant must specify the variety of fruit used" not "list all fruit used."  I take this to mean that the judges need to know what they're supposed to be judging as opposed to what the recipe was.  It does not seem to me to be a requirement to specify all the fruit as much as it does to tell the judges what fruit should be apparent.
Please don't get me wrong.  I don't think anybody needs to brew "to style" to have fun in this hobby, but there are some guidelines to follow to do well in competitions.  
Ethics have more to do with blind judging than recipe formulation.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: lonnie mac on December 29, 2010, 03:10:49 AM
Only list those ingredients that are apparent to the senses.  It doesn't matter what went into it as much as what they are going to be judging it as.  
There is no rule that I know of that says you have to list everything you put into a batch.
It will be judged, as you say, with respect to what the judges taste and smell, so only list those things that are apparent.  

The guidelines clearly state to list all fruit used. So there is a rule. There have been many ethics questions lately at comps I have been involved in. Situation.....a Russian Imperial Stout is entered, the brewer states that he added coffee and chocolate to his brew. How do you judge this? Is it misentered, should be a cat 23 or fruit veggie, or spice beer (not sure where coffee and chocolate fit in)? Or since the guidelines call for those flavors (even tho they blame the darker malts for contributing) judge it as is ignoring the non-conventional ingrediants?

Bonjour has given some great advice here, as well as some pretty dang good wording too! I would copy exactly what he said!

As Jeffy pointed out in your example also, in this category the judges would never know what you put in your stout. They simply get nine or so bottles of stout on the table with a number on each cap. That's all they know, and that's all the Steward knows as well. In your Mel, you are asked to include your fruit. In that category, like cat 23 and a few others, the judges actually see this data because it was requested from you during your entry process.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: MDixon on December 29, 2010, 01:20:00 PM
If a brewer entered a Russian Imperial Stout then there should be no place on the entry form or on the pull sheet given to the judges to state that he added any coffee or chocolate.  How would the judges be informed of that?  If it were stated on the entry form, then perhaps the category should have been "specialty" instead of RIS.  Those ingredients, if not mentioned, may add some complexity to the beer, which could be a good thing.
[SNIP]
Please don't get me wrong.  I don't think anybody needs to brew "to style" to have fun in this hobby, but there are some guidelines to follow to do well in competitions.  
Ethics have more to do with blind judging than recipe formulation.

+1 (excellent response!)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bluesman on December 29, 2010, 03:23:15 PM
I also think that having more information about an entry can only help one in the sense that it will enable the judges to calibrate or target their senses to that particular element in the entry. Perhaps the "more is better" approach prevails in this case. This will also cut down on the time it takes for the judges to hone in on the flavors and allow them to actually qualify those flavors in the entry.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: tumarkin on December 29, 2010, 03:45:10 PM
I also think that having more information about an entry can only help one in the sense that it will enable the judges to calibrate or target their senses to that particular element in the entry. Perhaps the "more is better" approach prevails in this case. This will also cut down on the time it takes for the judges to hone in on the flavors and allow them to actually qualify those flavors in the entry.

If you're looking for judge feedback, Bluesman is dead right on this.

If you're looking for medals, I think Jeffy has summed it up. When judging, you look for things that should/or should not be in the beer (whether this is info in the style guidelines or provided by the entrant). When you list a fruit, spice, etc, the judges are going to be looking for it. If it's not detectable, or identifiable, the judge may very well downgrade his score for that perceived lack.

Most of us realize that a listed ingredient can be at a low level and still make a subtle contribution. Fruits, spices, etc can combine or modify each other. The sum of the parts can be greater, etc etc. But for competition, if it's not discernible and/or identifiable, you run the risk of getting scored down. If it's a blueberry mel, most judges will look for blueberry, etc. Best just not to mention it if the average judge wouldn't be likely to detect it. 
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: denny on December 29, 2010, 04:34:26 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 05:08:55 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.

I don't have drunken friends and I don't share my home-made beverages with people like that.  I don't know anybody who does.  People like that are usually the ones pounding down canoe beer.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bfogt on December 29, 2010, 05:30:37 PM
A note on the RIS with flavorings.  The commercial examples for the style are led by 3 Floyds Dark Lord which uses a locally roasted coffee and other flavorings to get to the final product.  So it should be acceptable to do the same to replicate the style.  When judging, I would assume that some entries are going to have non-malt flavorings and any notes I get from the entry form would help with making specific recipe comments as opposed to adding or detracting from the score. RIS almost seems like a subcategory of 21 or 23 at times.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.

I never said my friends were drunkards. They just happen to like my beer. Please continue drinking by yourself and earning ribbons.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: jeffy on December 29, 2010, 06:12:44 PM
A note on the RIS with flavorings.  The commercial examples for the style are led by 3 Floyds Dark Lord which uses a locally roasted coffee and other flavorings to get to the final product.  So it should be acceptable to do the same to replicate the style.  When judging, I would assume that some entries are going to have non-malt flavorings and any notes I get from the entry form would help with making specific recipe comments as opposed to adding or detracting from the score. RIS almost seems like a subcategory of 21 or 23 at times.
Checking the bjcp site, Dark Lord is indeed the first commercial example listed for Imperial Stout.
Checking the 3 Floyds site, the beer contains coffee and vanilla.
So, my whole theory is dashed, I guess.
What's up with that?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: johnf on December 29, 2010, 06:19:29 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.

I never said my friends were drunkards. They just happen to like my beer. Please continue drinking by yourself and earning ribbons.

If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: lonnie mac on December 29, 2010, 06:24:27 PM
A note on the RIS with flavorings.  The commercial examples for the style are led by 3 Floyds Dark Lord which uses a locally roasted coffee and other flavorings to get to the final product.  So it should be acceptable to do the same to replicate the style.  When judging, I would assume that some entries are going to have non-malt flavorings and any notes I get from the entry form would help with making specific recipe comments as opposed to adding or detracting from the score. RIS almost seems like a subcategory of 21 or 23 at times.
Checking the bjcp site, Dark Lord is indeed the first commercial example listed for Imperial Stout.
Checking the 3 Floyds site, the beer contains coffee and vanilla.
So, my whole theory is dashed, I guess.
What's up with that?

Reading the introduction to the BJCP style guidelines, especially the "Notes to Judges" section clears a lot of this whole conversation up...
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 07:42:46 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: denny on December 29, 2010, 07:54:12 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

I didn't see that opinion voiced.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 07:58:34 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

I didn't see that opinion voiced.

I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 08:01:43 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

I didn't see that opinion voiced.

Well there ya go then; that opinion must not exist.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bonjour on December 29, 2010, 08:04:57 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: denny on December 29, 2010, 08:07:38 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

I didn't see that opinion voiced.

Well there ya go then; that opinion must not exist.


I didn't say that....I was referring to this discussion.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: denny on December 29, 2010, 08:08:08 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

I didn't see that opinion voiced.

I think they spend too much money on competitions.

How much do they spend?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 08:10:05 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?


I didn't see that opinion voiced.

I think they spend too much money on competitions.

How much do they spend?

Well, I'll ask you that question. Shouldn't it be public record?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: johnf on December 29, 2010, 08:25:15 PM
If you are defensive about your experience with competitions, why not just avoid the threads discussing them?

Perhaps there are members of the Brewers' Association who feel that the association spends too much time and resources promoting competition instead of just promoting brewing?

What does the BA have to do with homebrewing competitions? 
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: stlaleman on December 29, 2010, 08:26:47 PM
Did not intend for this to be a debate on competitions, value of medals, etc. Just wanted the advice of some of the highest ranked judges on interpretting the rules.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: MDixon on December 29, 2010, 08:55:28 PM
Actually, any particular competition can set the rules any way they desire. The BJCP nor the AHA has any say so WHATSOEVER in that. Bottle size, limiting entries, changing the guidelines for a comp, etc...all are perfectly fine.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 08:58:39 PM
Did not intend for this to be a debate on competitions, value of medals, etc. Just wanted the advice of some of the highest ranked judges on interpretting the rules.

Nice stringer of bass in your avatar there stlaleman!
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 09:01:15 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?

Are you allowed to post to this forum if you are not?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: tumarkin on December 29, 2010, 09:04:49 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?

Are you allowed to post to this forum if you are not?

Yes, you do not have to be a member to read or post to the AHA forum. There are benefits restricted to members (like Ask the Experts) but the forum itself is open.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: johnf on December 29, 2010, 09:05:15 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?

Are you allowed to post to this forum if you are not?

Yes but in either case you must be confusing the BA and the AHA. I don't suspect the AHA spends much money at all on competitions. I would guess the NHC is a money maker and other than that all they are doing is printing the names of some competitions in Zymurgy and online, but then they get some part of the $30 registration fee for that.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: punatic on December 29, 2010, 09:11:54 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?

Are you allowed to post to this forum if you are not?

Yes but in either case you must be confusing the BA and the AHA. I don't suspect the AHA spends much money at all on competitions. I would guess the NHC is a money maker and other than that all they are doing is printing the names of some competitions in Zymurgy and online, but then they get some part of the $30 registration fee for that.

The AHA is a part of the BA.  The BA is the mothership.  The AHA was the start of it all though.

I did not know non-members could post to the forum.  I thought they could look-only.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 29, 2010, 10:05:33 PM
I think they spend too much money on competitions.
Are you a member?

Yes, I am a member.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bonjour on December 29, 2010, 10:16:28 PM
This thread is getting way off topic,
Let's bring it back to the melomel
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: stlaleman on December 29, 2010, 10:26:27 PM
Did not intend for this to be a debate on competitions, value of medals, etc. Just wanted the advice of some of the highest ranked judges on interpretting the rules.

Nice stringer of bass in your avatar there stlaleman!
That was my best day ever fishing, two bass over 6 pounds and one catfish around 10 pounds.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: bfogt on December 30, 2010, 12:52:43 AM
I find that when entering competitions, it is a better use of my money to enter anything that isn't a "normal style" only where there are people who are likely to judge it who have experience with the style from both a scoring perspective and for feedback.  Smaller competitions probably won't have a wide enough range of judges to be able to judge Melomel well.  If the judges are unfamiliar with the product (commercial examples, making it themselves, etc) prizes will be a crap shoot and feedback isn't likely to be helpful.  But if you know a competition has an experienced judge pool or draws from a deeper pool of judges or even if the area specializes in something, I think you'll find the quality of off-centered beverage judging to be more satisfying.  Part of that is that the competition organizers will know what the judges will want to know and how they might handle too much information on first taste.

Summarized, I would email the organizer of a competition with a question like this.  If they don't have a satisfying answer, I'd skip it.  It's more about getting a specialty product to the right judging panel.  You wouldn't send a Big Rig to Car and Driver for a test drive... or maybe you would... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSr5Dr56VgE)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: uthristy on December 30, 2010, 03:41:15 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.

Really Denny? thats rather rude to say something like that, do you know him or his friends before calling them drunks?

I don't brew to impress anybody but my wife & me, anybody else likes the beer all the better, guess I'm just another drunk.


Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 30, 2010, 03:48:37 PM
Just drink it and enjoy it. Why do you need someone else telling you it's good or bad?

Because maybe you have another reason for brewing than simply "I like it and my drunken friends like it, so it must be good".  If that's your motivation, no problem, but not everyone has the same reasons.

Really Denny? thats rather rude to say something like that, do you know him or his friends before calling them drunks?

I don't brew to impress anybody but my wife & me, anybody else likes the beer all the better, guess I'm just another drunk.




I felt the same way, but I see those types of answers directed at others, so I didn't get offended. It's all cool.

While my friends have gotten a little tipsy before, (myself included)  I don't consider them, or myself, drunks and I still respect their opinions.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: johnf on December 30, 2010, 04:07:06 PM
You don't think answering a question about how to fill out a competition entry with a judgmental comment about entering competitions created the negative environment in the first place?

Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 30, 2010, 04:19:41 PM
You don't think answering a question about how to fill out a competition entry with a judgmental comment about entering competitions created the negative environment in the first place?



Giving your opinion is one thing. Insulting someone or someone's friends is another. Enough said.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: denny on December 30, 2010, 04:41:07 PM
Really Denny? thats rather rude to say something like that, do you know him or his friends before calling them drunks?

Yes, it is, and I apologize for it.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: Mikey on December 30, 2010, 04:42:59 PM
Really Denny? thats rather rude to say something like that, do you know him or his friends before calling them drunks?

Yes, it is, and I apologize for it.

And I accept it and thanks.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: uthristy on December 30, 2010, 04:52:58 PM
Really Denny? thats rather rude to say something like that, do you know him or his friends before calling them drunks?

Yes, it is, and I apologize for it.

Cool ;)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: christo on December 30, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
Wow, talk about a roaming thread. . . insults, apologies, fishing!

Back to the topic.  It has been summed up fairly well, but thought I would give my take.

As discussed earlier, if you want feedback on why some of your fruits don't shine in your mead, then noting all fruits may be appropriate.  (I do like the concept of stating all of the fruits but then also adding that the primary fruits are x and y).  If you are wanting to do well in the competition, mention only the ones that are detectable.

A correlation can be made to deciding what style to enter in beer brewing.  You may brew what you were planning to be a Robust Porter, but for whatever reason (lower mash efficiency, old ingredients, attenuates too much, etc.) it just doesn't have the proper malt and hop kick and ends up more of a Brown Porter.  Tastes like a Brown Porter, looks like a Brown Porter, smells like a Brown Porter, feels like a Brown Porter.  I say enter as a Brown Porter.  You can enter as a Robust and you will likely get comments back that the alcohol, hops, body, etc. are too low for the style and to enter as a Brown Porter next time.

In any event, it's not an ethics thing for any of these cases.  Just because you add it to the grist (or must) doesn't mean it's going to shine in the final product.
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: EHall on December 30, 2010, 08:39:32 PM
can we get a group hug too? why don't we get drunk and ....
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: uthristy on December 30, 2010, 09:04:23 PM
can we get a group hug too? why don't we get drunk and ....

I  don't swing that way, not that theres anything wrong with it,but no thanks(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t248/Beer_Tour2/marijane.jpg)
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: theDarkSide on December 30, 2010, 09:10:28 PM
can we get a group hug too? why don't we get drunk and ....
...pass out?
Title: Re: Competition Ethics
Post by: EHall on December 30, 2010, 09:44:59 PM
don't swing that way?! where's your mind at?! I was thinking ... get drunk and brew.  :-*