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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: bluefoxicy on January 19, 2011, 09:31:58 PM

Title: Need some engineering help
Post by: bluefoxicy on January 19, 2011, 09:31:58 PM
As much as I can do some vague semblance of concrete engineering in my head, it helps to know what I'm talking about.  At the moment I'm missing a lot of numbers and not sure where to look...maybe if anyone knows of an engineering forum somewhere?

Today's topic is energy.  Things I need numbers for are...


I think that'll give me all the numbers I need to work out an interesting thought experiment.  I just don't know where to look for these fine details.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 20, 2011, 02:35:51 AM
I see maybe where the thought is headed. My understanding is that there is more useful biomass in an acre of hemp as opposed to an acre of trees, or even cotton. Energy-wise I'd say peanuts or soy would yield more oil...
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: loopy on January 20, 2011, 04:33:07 PM
There is one more question that is related here. What is the amount of energy input required to get energy output.

If it requires a gallon of diesel fuel to plant hemp, a gallon of diesel to run the generator to process it, and at the end of the process you get 1 gallon out of it.  It's a net lose. 
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 20, 2011, 05:40:10 PM
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: bluefoxicy on January 20, 2011, 08:25:18 PM
There is one more question that is related here. What is the amount of energy input required to get energy output.

If it requires a gallon of diesel fuel to plant hemp, a gallon of diesel to run the generator to process it, and at the end of the process you get 1 gallon out of it.  It's a net lose. 

It requires very little energy to plant hemp or peanuts.  You walk around scattering hemp seeds; you can till and plant peanuts easy enough.  Small-scale is easy enough, whereas large-scale requires equipment that mostly moves itself because it weighs 2 tons and needs to burn fuel to move 2 tons of metal-- a premium paid to do it "quickly."

Notably, however, liquid fuel has a particular use.  Stop thinking so much about a liquid fuel energy economy; it takes solar power to keep a shed full of batteries charged to run your battery-powered tractor (electric motors more efficiently produce torque) and thresher.  It takes liquid fuel to run a tractor that you can run for more than 10 hours at a time-- or to run a car that has more than a 50 mile range (even when claimed 300 miles), or a plane.

You don't actually need to run your tractor for 3 days; it might take a week to run all over the farm and do all the planting, but you have 4 sets of batteries so you can do 20 hours a day with 1 hour for battery swapping.  Takes a day to charge the batteries.  The power input to manufacture batteries and solar cells isn't equivalent to their power output over their useful lifespan.

Peanut oil is fantastic; hemp oil is tasty, a health food, completely non-toxic if you wash the seeds before extracting the oil (the psychotropic compounds are in the resin on the outside), and also a useful byproduct if you're using hemp for rope or clothing manufacture.

What all the temperature stuff is for is viability of forges.  Is charcoal hotter than peanut oil?  I doubt it; diesel fire... yeah.  Can I manufacture charcoal with a solar aparatus?  Use of charcoal as a home heating fuel, and energy cost to manufacture and transport versus oil based solutions?  etc.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: weazletoe on January 21, 2011, 12:22:30 AM
You walk around scattering hemp seeds

But what you are not considering here, is the fact that with all that hemp planting, you'll be smoking a lot more of it too. So, what with all the walking and plating, and smoking, you'll be making A LOT more trips to Taco Bell. When you consider all the extra money spent on chicken soft taco, and gas to drive to taco bell, you're way in the hole. This can only be overcome if you raise and slaughter you own chickens, and grow wheat, to grind your own flour for soft shell. You'll also need to consider keeping a dairy cow on hand, for cheese, and sour cream. I think that if only these things are tackled as well, would growing your own hemp be cost effective.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 21, 2011, 12:51:55 AM
Well, if everybody were smoking hemp then nobody would be complaining about using too much energy... probably complaining that nobody spent enough energy.   ;D 

Think about it... Little Debbies and Dolly Madison's stock prices would go through the roof... hmmm... this could replace the DOT COM era perhaps?   :D    HO-HO's and Ding Dongs!   :P

Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: jaybeerman on January 21, 2011, 01:10:37 AM
There is one more question that is related here. What is the amount of energy input required to get energy output.

If it requires a gallon of diesel fuel to plant hemp, a gallon of diesel to run the generator to process it, and at the end of the process you get 1 gallon out of it.  It's a net lose. 

The best way - let someone else buy the oil (e.g. Burger King).  With minimal work the oil can be cleaned and good bio-diesel can be produced for $0.25/gallon. My father-in-law has run two Volkswagens, a Dodge truck, two skidsteers, a front-end loader and a Jeep liberty for years.  On the hwy with his Golf I've seen 40+ mpg using his biofuel, not too shabby. 
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: MrNate on January 21, 2011, 05:42:59 AM
You walk around scattering hemp seeds

But what you are not considering here, is the fact that with all that hemp planting, you'll be smoking a lot more of it too. So, what with all the walking and plating, and smoking, you'll be making A LOT more trips to Taco Bell. When you consider all the extra money spent on chicken soft taco, and gas to drive to taco bell, you're way in the hole. This can only be overcome if you raise and slaughter you own chickens, and grow wheat, to grind your own flour for soft shell. You'll also need to consider keeping a dairy cow on hand, for cheese, and sour cream. I think that if only these things are tackled as well, would growing your own hemp be cost effective.

I like tacos.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 21, 2011, 06:10:02 AM
You want heat? Set some magnesium on fire. :o

 One of the best output vs. input ratios is sugar cane to make ethanol.

 Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane sap and then uses the leftover cane stalks to fire the boilers to run generators to power the fermenting and distillation apparatus and sells the leftover electricity back to the grid. In Brazil ethanol is basically free plus the gain.

 This crazy corn/ethanol thing in the US is STOOPID. Anyone who has used corn mash as a distillation wash ( ::)) will tell you that it is very low yield and takes more energy to produce than it produces...if that makes sense.

The biggest absolute waste of energy is the electric vehicle. Got to plug that thing into the grid. You telling me that my gasoline powered truck burns more fuel than the power plant that has to run full capacity just in case I might want to plug my car in?

Solar and/or nuke. That's the way to go.

 This is just the Tubercle's observation. If you want his opinion on any of the preceding subjects, just ask.
 
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 21, 2011, 06:39:21 AM
I concur with the solar/nuke approach. In fact I see methods of providing energy becoming regional- especially in transport. Might be solar in the Southwest. Might be Brazilian-style cane sugar based ethanol in the Gulf Coast. Nuclear and coal in the North East.

I usually don't drive far from my home on a day to day basis. Maybe 20 miles round trip to work. Do some errands add another 20-30 miles. Why do I need a vehicle that'll travel long distances on a single charge? In this case electric makes perfect sense and I'm glad the option is opening up.

Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: rabid_dingo on January 21, 2011, 09:14:27 AM
This crazy corn/ethanol thing in the US is STOOPID.

You're right. And this ethanol-tech bubble has burst. So many farmers thought that they could earn a ton of
money by growing [whatever type of corn popular for fuel ethanol] corn realized that they sacrificed real profits
with some traditional crops. It was a realization mentioned earlier. It is a net loss of energy.

Kind of like buying a brand spanking new hybrid car. It is more environmentally sound to buy a used gasoline car. The used
car already exists, you keep it from a junk yard, if it is from a legit dealer it has been recently tuned up to minimize
pollution (really to improve mileage and performance, the environment is 2ndary). and so on and so on.

Meanwhile a brand new hybrid takes energy, materials, produces pollution....The real way a "new-off-the-lot-hybrid" will
every be green is if the materials used to produce it are recycled, the energy consumed is solar, wind or hydro. AND
not a single form is "signed", no "copies" of documents, proof of insurance, temp tags and what not are used at all.
An E-car loan if you will, E-proof, E-registration....(no papers at all)

And to top it off. No plastic cups for that water cooler that is always at a dealership, no offers of bottled water, no styrofoam
cups for the coffee machine, no plastic peanut bags in the lobby....

Green can so easily be a marketing ploy versus a real philosophy.

I can be green at home. I don't need to buy anything to be green. If I make any purchase to be "GREEN" I have already failed.
Real green comes from reducing consumption not waste. e.i. producing what I need vs. buying it...segue to the what are you planting thread. Anyone plant "TEA" plants and make their own tea? (Answer in that thread, not this one..)

I believe that this mirrors the tubercles opinion.



Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 21, 2011, 10:50:15 AM
My plan as far as all this green stuff goes, is to buy an EV (chevy volt or Tesla model S) and then get a wind turbine to charge it. We don't do much driving because we have VERY good public transit, even out here in the boonies, so I figure it'd be a pretty good thing.

Re energy, most of France is nuclear, and our energy company is one of those that buys wind power somehow. I dunno how that works exactly...

The problem of course with all this 'green' stuff is that a lot of it (especially EVs, etc) rely on petroleum-based manufacturing. So nothing is every going to be truly green, but at least it's a start.

Sometimes I wonder how much of my current lifestyle I'd be able to maintain should there be some sort of global event that would end our ability to use current manufacturing, economic, and transportation processes. I think an investment in an EV would be good in this sort of situation, but the problem is getting replacement parts.

Sorry to ramble, it's Friday alright.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: nicneufeld on January 21, 2011, 02:31:18 PM
I'm actually interested in which major world power will be the first to deploy a "green" (and I don't mean just olive drab) main battle tank.

I'm guessing not Russia or China.  But western Europe or US perhaps?  "Colonel, we've got to disengage the company of Hybrid Abrams tanks to withdraw to a charging station immediately!"

Weaz, I must admit, that was about as artful and subtle a tacoification as I have ever read.  I didn't even realize you had gone full taco until Nates post.  Well done sir.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: MrNate on January 21, 2011, 02:41:24 PM
This crazy corn/ethanol thing in the US is STOOPID.
Green can so easily be a marketing ploy versus a real philosophy.

I can be green at home. I don't need to buy anything to be green. If I make any purchase to be "GREEN" I have already failed.
Real green comes from reducing consumption not waste. e.i. producing what I need vs. buying it...segue to the what are you planting thread. Anyone plant "TEA" plants and make their own tea? (Answer in that thread, not this one..)

I believe that this mirrors the tubercles opinion.

I agree with the both of you, especially about the grid. People just don't realize what goes into keeping the lights on. Start plugging a ton of electric cars in, and what happens to the "peak hours" model? Also had a conversation with a friend of mine about how the carbon footprint of your average PA hillbilly is probably half that of your average conspicuously-green urban consumer. Used cars, small houses, home grown veggies and harvested meat, wood heating, and generally being mindful of spending all go an awful long way towards reducing personal impact.

Here's a basic truth I tend to follow: Energy is money. Everything we spend money on is essentially just converted energy. You want to go green? Spend less money. When you find yourself making your own (whatever) or, more often, going without or at least being very mindful of what you're spending, THEN you've "gone green." Buying a ton of new crap just to feel better about yourself is just being a scenester.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: jeffy on January 21, 2011, 03:34:11 PM
This crazy corn/ethanol thing in the US is STOOPID.
Green can so easily be a marketing ploy versus a real philosophy.

I can be green at home. I don't need to buy anything to be green. If I make any purchase to be "GREEN" I have already failed.
Real green comes from reducing consumption not waste. e.i. producing what I need vs. buying it...segue to the what are you planting thread. Anyone plant "TEA" plants and make their own tea? (Answer in that thread, not this one..)

I believe that this mirrors the tubercles opinion.

I agree with the both of you, especially about the grid. taco
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 21, 2011, 04:03:25 PM
I agree with the both of you, especially about the grid. People just don't realize what goes into keeping the lights on. Start plugging a ton of electric cars in, and what happens to the "peak hours" model? Also had a conversation with a friend of mine about how the carbon footprint of your average PA hillbilly is probably half that of your average conspicuously-green urban consumer. Used cars, small houses, home grown veggies and harvested meat, wood heating, and generally being mindful of spending all go an awful long way towards reducing personal impact.

Here's a basic truth I tend to follow: Energy is money. Everything we spend money on is essentially just converted energy. You want to go green? Spend less money. When you find yourself making your own (whatever) or, more often, going without or at least being very mindful of what you're spending, THEN you've "gone green." Buying a ton of new crap just to feel better about yourself is just being a scenester.

Well said.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 21, 2011, 05:02:41 PM
Wow, you guys are serious about this aren't you.  Like the commercial says... you do realize this is just a simulation, right?  Okay... here we go.

1.) Its too late to do anything because by the time anyone agreed what to actually DO, we will be out of fossil fuels.

2.) None of the proposed solutions make any sense whatsoever unless someone can make a profit therefore none of them will come to fruition.  Somebody has to rule "from on-high"...  we still live in a sudo medieval society... kings, lords, barons and peasants... you and I are peasants and you get to keep what leftovers THEY say you get to keep so get used to it.  This includes driving "on the King's road"... you will pay for the privilege of do such things."

3.) We all know who the kings are, we just like to biotch about the lords and barons... you know them, they are insurance companies, banks, automobile manufacturers, etc.  They Can and Will charge you whatever they deem because they give the King payoff's to create laws mandating that we peasants must use their services, products etc. or Else suffer in the King's dungeon. 

4.) Fuels and being Green... why fix what isn't broken... unless there is $$$ to be made.  Imagine what kind of brown outs or rolling blackouts may or may not occur if everyone drove electric automobiles.

5.) Agrees with Tubercle and others... We've learned a lot about Nuclear energy, now its time to use that knowlege.  Not sold on the Solar energy yet... wind and solar energy materials are apparently expensive to make because they sure are expensive to buy and build even a small system.  Go Nuke!  Go Nuke!  ... who said that?   ;D  Besides... we've got a ton of Navy Nuke's that are highly trained experts so there wouldn't be any training curve to get them up and running in no time at all.

6.)  See number one above...
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: oscarvan on January 21, 2011, 05:14:05 PM
Notably, however, liquid fuel has a particular use.  Stop thinking so much about a liquid fuel energy economy; it takes solar power to keep a shed full of batteries charged to run your battery-powered tractor (electric motors more efficiently produce torque) and thresher.  It takes liquid fuel to run a tractor that you can run for more than 10 hours at a time-- or to run a car that has more than a 50 mile range (even when claimed 300 miles), or a plane.

And how do you think those batteries are made?
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: Slowbrew on January 21, 2011, 05:16:16 PM
You want heat? Set some magnesium on fire. :o

 One of the best output vs. input ratios is sugar cane to make ethanol.

 Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane sap and then uses the leftover cane stalks to fire the boilers to run generators to power the fermenting and distillation apparatus and sells the leftover electricity back to the grid. In Brazil ethanol is basically free plus the gain.

 This crazy corn/ethanol thing in the US is STOOPID. Anyone who has used corn mash as a distillation wash ( ::)) will tell you that it is very low yield and takes more energy to produce than it produces...if that makes sense.

The biggest absolute waste of energy is the electric vehicle. Got to plug that thing into the grid. You telling me that my gasoline powered truck burns more fuel than the power plant that has to run full capacity just in case I might want to plug my car in?

Solar and/or nuke. That's the way to go.

 This is just the Tubercle's observation. If you want his opinion on any of the preceding subjects, just ask.
 

+100!!

I grew up on a corn/soybean/livestock farm and still have relatives out on the farm.  I have said for years that ethanol in the US is a boondoggle.  It started out as a few farmers trying to see if they could make it work and now it's just a pyramid scheme to suck money out of farmers who are trying to make a few more cents per bushel for their corn.  Once farmers stop being willing to form coops and the government stops the subsidies the ethanol industry is dead.  

Iowa will become the biggest source for used stainless steal and/or the largest producer of cheap whiskey in the world.  All they need to do is age the ethanol in oak barrels and stop adding gasoline to the storage tanks as they do this now to make it undrinkable.  Maybe they should call it Hawkeye Fire Water.

I've also been supporting nuclear and solar since the 70's during "the energy crisis".

Paul
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: Slowbrew on January 21, 2011, 05:20:23 PM
My plan as far as all this green stuff goes, is to buy an EV (chevy volt or Tesla model S) and then get a wind turbine to charge it. We don't do much driving because we have VERY good public transit, even out here in the boonies, so I figure it'd be a pretty good thing.

Re energy, most of France is nuclear, and our energy company is one of those that buys wind power somehow. I dunno how that works exactly...

The problem of course with all this 'green' stuff is that a lot of it (especially EVs, etc) rely on petroleum-based manufacturing. So nothing is every going to be truly green, but at least it's a start.

Sometimes I wonder how much of my current lifestyle I'd be able to maintain should there be some sort of global event that would end our ability to use current manufacturing, economic, and transportation processes. I think an investment in an EV would be good in this sort of situation, but the problem is getting replacement parts.

Sorry to ramble, it's Friday alright.

My plan on this going green stuff is to keep my 10 year old truck tuned up and drive it till it falls apart from old age.  I figure it's got 8 to 10 more years in it and nothing has had to be mined, milled, refined (except gas, lubricants and tires) to make a new one in 10 years.

Paul
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: nicneufeld on January 21, 2011, 05:37:14 PM
dean@ahaforum:~$ sudo medieval society
Password: _


(sorry for the lame linux joke!  :D )
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 21, 2011, 05:44:45 PM
dean@ahaforum:~$ sudo medieval society
Password: _


(sorry for the lame linux joke!  :D )


Good catch... I switch back and forth between windows and linux lately.  My pc crashed... hd is bad, cd locks up though sometimes so I have an older computer I change all the connections over to when it does and run on windows.  I like linux except I don't know how to use it all yet... screen size is tiny which I can stretch but the fonts don't change.  I need to get another hd and install it so I don't rely on the cd to keep me going.  Pretty good op system though... faster than windows XP or at least it seems to be... images load way faster.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 21, 2011, 07:33:02 PM
I've been running Ubuntu linux for years. It's free...

Oops I got a security update... Sudo?

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_BGa2L64KQdY/TTneglB9rgI/AAAAAAAAAck/W7zHBf88mW4/s800/sudo.png)

We have hundreds of years worth of coal. When the oil runs out we'll be burning coal. Back to steam trains... Choo choo...
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: kerneldustjacket on January 21, 2011, 10:52:29 PM

My plan on this going green stuff is to keep my 10 year old truck tuned up and drive it till it falls apart from old age.  I figure it's got 8 to 10 more years in it and nothing has had to be mined, milled, refined (except gas, lubricants and tires) to make a new one in 10 years.

Paul

Yep...that's the sensible approach. The benefit in switching technologies is lost if what you're replacing is in good working order -- unless of course the item is a major user of energy or an extreme polluter.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: onthekeg on January 22, 2011, 01:50:18 AM
I agree with Tubercle.  I have been lucky enough to have worked in the ethanol industry for a decade.  Then I moved to oilseeds.  People need to realize we have energy here, its not rocket science.  We have coal that can be converted to diesel fuel.  We don't have to go back to the steam age.  We also have plenty of tide, wind and river to electricity options in places where it is feasible.  Solar has a place, Nuclear has a very large part in our future.  You want an electric car?  Deal with it.  Batteries are full of heavy metals.  Sure we recycle them, but not all are recycled.  Now the worst of the mundane psycho babble we deal with..  The fluorescent bulb replacing the incandescent.  Rob the mercury from peter and pay paul.  Sheeple never win.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 22, 2011, 03:35:18 PM
The fluorescent bulb replacing the incandescent.  Rob the mercury from peter and pay paul.  Sheeple never win.

You said a mouthful there!  All this "green" technology is a crock.  If you own a flourescent light and it breaks, it will cost you thousands of dollars to have the site cleaned up... yes... the powder in there is a Hazardous Substance and must be handled by "Professionals" which You Will Pay For.  If a flourescent bulb doesn't break but just fails to work... well you can't just throw it away... no sir... it has to go to an approved recylcling center and it may also cost you to drop it off there.  See where the Real "Green" is going yet?   ;)

Another one... those pesky smoke detectors... especially the ones that are hardwired in... they contain radioactive material... think I'm kidding you... look at yours if you have one in your home... it is on a lable.  Wait til you need to get rid of that little baby... just more "green" from your wallet.   ;)

Thermostats and thermometers containing mercury... you don't even want to know.  If one breaks in your home... kiss your home goodbye ladies!  Seriously.   :-*

edited to add this link... http://www.epa.gov/radtown/smoke-detector.html   (notice they tell you everything except how to dispose of it?)

another edit because I found this... "Smoke detectors containing Am-241 also provide some radiation exposure. However, the radiation exposure people receive from a smoke detector is very low. The health risk reduction from the fire protection vastly outweighs the health risk from the radiation. That said, you should still handle smoke detectors containing americium with care. To avoid exposure:

never dismantle a smoke detector
never burn a smoke detector in your fireplace
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission, which regulates the radioactive material in smoke detectors, permits their disposal as ordinary trash.
"   
OMG!!!   You can read it here.... http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/americium.html
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 22, 2011, 05:53:33 PM
Is energy in the vacuum the future?

Zero-point Energy (http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html)
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: uthristy on January 22, 2011, 07:34:41 PM
  • Energy in peanut oil (diesel engines can run directly on peanut oil... not your Volkswagen, but a true diesel engine can be designed and timed to run straight, filtered peanut oil with no additives)
  • Energy in hemp oil and yield for the appropriate strain of cannibis (the best strain for oil production also happens to be the best for fiber production; the trade-off is it puts more energy into oil and fiber production and less into THC production, giving a low yield of psychotropic resins)
Wrong on these two, and what have you been smoking?

Next ask yourself why the USA market can't get cars like  the  VW POLO >>Jul 31, 2007 ...Volkswagen's Clean-Diesel, 70-mpg Polo


Go and dowload this very old book>
Marijuana Botany: Propagation and Breeding of Distintive Cannabis
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 22, 2011, 08:23:56 PM
In agreement with Uthirsty.  I had a Ford Escort back in the 1980's that got 40 mpg so the automobile manufacturers as well as Politicians are pulling the wool over everybody's eyes touting cars that get gas mileage in the 30 to 40 mpg bracket.  Thats OLD news.  The difference is today "younger voters" don't know cars like that already existed and went the way of the dinosaur when gasoline prices stopped climbing last time.  Same old same old... history repeating itself. 

Now the real fuels nobody wants to look into are biofuels... way back before I was old enough to drive a car some smart fella built a car that ran on chicken manure.  ;)  And during the 1970's there were quite a few people that developed carburators or carburator modifications that allowed the average car or truck to get over 50 mpg.  Gas and Oil companies as well as Automotive manufacturers AND unions put a kabosh on those... you can research it online and read about them if anyone is curious enough.

Its all about the green...   ::)
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: Slowbrew on January 22, 2011, 09:18:14 PM
I agree there are better fuels we could be using.  The first deisel engine was desinged to run on vegie oil not petrol deisel but you have to compare apples to apples when using MPG to evaluate fuel economy.  

Yes, cars 30 years ago could get 40 to 50 MPG but... most of them didn't have AC, power steering, electric windows and doors.  None of them had airbags or TV's or satelite radio.  They were also the size of the spare tire in today's SUVs.  We can do better but we have to be realistic with our expectations.

Sorry to be a wet blanket (but it's whatI do best).

Paul

Edited to correct some really stupid spelling errors.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 22, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
Need to bring back the VW Beetle. Not the new one but the old rear engine one...the people's car.

 Tubercle had 2 in his life.

 They got so good gas mileage that every 100 miles or so you would have to pull over and siphon a quart of gas out of the tank to keep it from running over.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: uthristy on January 22, 2011, 10:31:09 PM
http://www.automobilemag.com/green/reviews/0907_1985_honda_crx_hf_2010_honda_insight/index.html

My buddy had the 1985 CRX HF, great little car, I had 1982 dodge colt twin stick, that had air and sipped gas for weeks, loved that car.


Now we could also have a Volkswagen Scirocco GT TDI but the powers that be won't bring it over.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/05/06/volkswagen-scirocco-gt-tdi-stokes-our-oil-burning-lust/

Same for the Ford Focus 1.6 TDCi Style,87 mpg but you can't buy one for the usa market
http://blog.fuelclinic.com/2010/01/03/87-mpg-while-driving-a-ford-focus/

I could do this all day long but you get the point, theres a market but for reasons unknown they just won't bring them here.

Things that make you go hmmm?

Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 23, 2011, 01:30:29 AM

Things that make you go hmmm?


Would you be imitating a Mazda rotary engine?

"Piston engines go boing-boing-boing, but the Mazda goes hmmmmmmmm."
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 23, 2011, 03:24:48 AM

Things that make you go hmmm?


Would you be imitating a Mazda rotary engine?

"Piston engines go boing-boing-boing, but the Mazda goes hmmmmmmmm."

I had an 81 RX7 that got fairly decent mileage. Those old rotaries required little but the oil being changed in them- which was often if one wanted the engine to retain compression.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: MrNate on January 23, 2011, 05:43:52 AM
I had a 82 Scirocco and an 89 Accord. Both great little cars, both got over 30 MPG if memory serves. It's all about the weight gain, just like us. That Accord was smaller and lighter than today's Civic, and yes it had power everything except seats. Even had a moonroof. We have passenger cars now that weigh as much as F-150s did when I was a kid, and we turn to hybrids to improve fuel economy. It's a scam, nothing more.

Anyone remember the Geo Metros? 55mpg.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: uthristy on January 23, 2011, 11:42:42 AM

Things that make you go hmmm?


Would you be imitating a Mazda rotary engine?

Nope, Arsenio Hall
(http://www.nndb.com/people/422/000022356/arseniohall.gif)



I had a 82 Scirocco and an 89 Accord. Both great little cars, both got over 30 MPG if memory serves. It's all about the weight gain, just like us. That Accord was smaller and lighter than today's Civic, and yes it had power everything except seats. Even had a moonroof.

My old `94 acura integra gsr ( fastest "all motor"in daytona  ;) )  would get 32mpg with my wife driving, slighty less for me and on trackdays it was 18mpg. :D

Car had everything,abs,moonroof,pwr everything and still got better gas milage than many of todays cars.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: MrNate on January 23, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
Of course I also realized they were both manuals, which is another sad thing that happened to cars. I wonder what percentage of under-20 drivers today can drive a stick? I'd guess in the neighborhood of 2.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: capozzoli on January 23, 2011, 01:29:10 PM
I had a buds kid in my car for a ride. He looked at the cranks for the windows and asked "What are these"? I told him they are for rolling the windows up and down. HE said "Thats stupid"
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: uthristy on January 23, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
I wonder what percentage of under-20 drivers today can drive a stick? I'd guess in the neighborhood of 2.

or "heel-and-toeing" ,I spent years  getting my technique perfect.

Electronic stability control (ESC), ABS, Traction control system (TCS) Adaptive Chassis Control (ACC), GPS and the list goes on & on, makes you wonder how people drove without all the drivers aids ::)
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: nicneufeld on January 23, 2011, 01:35:01 PM
I had a buds kid in my car for a ride. He looked at the cranks for the windows and asked "What are these"? I told him they are for rolling the windows up and down. HE said "Thats stupid"

The appropriate response would of course be, "You're stupid!"
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 23, 2011, 02:06:09 PM

Things that make you go hmmm?


Would you be imitating a Mazda rotary engine?
"Piston engines go boing-boing-boing, but the Mazda goes hmmmmmmmm."

 
I believe when these first were invented - in the 50's? - they were called Wankle engines. I think that is the guy who invented it.

Of course I also realized they were both manuals, which is another sad thing that happened to cars. I wonder what percentage of under-20 drivers today can drive a stick? I'd guess in the neighborhood of 2.

  Tubercle was in his 40's before he owned a vehicle with an auto trans. Had drove many of them every day on the job but never bought such. Learned to drive a 1954 Ford 1/2 ton w/3-on-the-tree. A stick just comes natural.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: uthristy on January 23, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
The engine was invented by German engineer Felix Wankel. He received his first patent for the engine in 1929, began development in the early 1950s at NSU Motorenwerke AG (NSU), and completed a working prototype in 1957.
google
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 02:46:33 PM
Need to bring back the VW Beetle. Not the new one but the old rear engine one...the people's car.

 Tubercle had 2 in his life.

 They got so good gas mileage that every 100 miles or so you would have to pull over and siphon a quart of gas out of the tank to keep it from running over.

Hahahaaaa!  I remember those days... we put them through hell too, off road driving, trail blazing and hill climbing even.   ;D  If they got stuck we just got out picked it up and turned it around or moved it one way or another.   ;)

Uthirsty, remember my last post... its all about the green.  If "somebody" ain't making enough of it then we ain't gonna get it... we're captives in this land in some ways.   Someone who moved here from another country said this... if they need a serious operation done they will go home to have it done, its less expensive and the doctors are more experienced.   America is all about the new and doing research... how does it feel to be a guinea pig?  "They" just keep giving us bigger wheels and telling us we're really going somewhere now.   ;)
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: jeffy on January 23, 2011, 03:52:55 PM
The engine was invented by German engineer Felix Wankel. He received his first patent for the engine in 1929, began development in the early 1950s at NSU Motorenwerke AG (NSU), and completed a working prototype in 1957.
google

Yeah, then Mazda started making them in the late 60's, engineered a darned fine engine in the late mid 80's and then started to tweek the design to make them worse and worse ever since.  The best of the whole lot was the 1985 RX-7 GSL-SE.  The 04 and 05 RX-8's are so bad they had to extend the warrenty too 100K just to keep people from suing them.  I have one apart in my shop as we speak.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 05:12:10 PM
Slowbrew is right that "most" of the cars back then didn't have AC and power everything, but do we really need all that?  I guess thats why cars went from a few thousand dollars to being similar to a home mortgage.   ;)    I'm happy with my 1994 Dodge Dakota 4x4, it gets anywhere between 17 and 21 mpg depending on how long since its been tuned up and yes thats whether its in 4wd or not.  It "had" air conditioning... but I'm too cheap to repair or replace those parts... I don't "need" air conditioning and everything else is manual, even the transmission which I just had to replace... $238.00 for the tranny and my nephew changed it for $70.00.  I think I'll keep it around.  I am going to buy a used car though... maybe a Lincoln or Cadillac from the mid to late 80's or early 90's... they ride Soooo Well on long drives.

I'm a heating and cooling guy... I keep everything simple as possible, no fansy thermostats etc... just what I actually "need" and it works just fine and has far less technical problems than the systems having all the bells and whistles that people seem to think they need these days.  If its hot and the box fan isn't getting it done, find a lake or river, go to the park, do something outside in the shade etc.  Its better than being in a room with Hot air blowing around.  In winter, you can always take clothes off if you need to.. so dial your thermostat back... I keep ours at 66* 

Oh that reminds me, I did the Unthinkable (at least in my mind it is/was unthinkable) but for some reason (maybe because I had just got out of the hospital and was still "medicated").  I let myself get talked into buying an "EDENPURE"... what a huge pile of SHYT that thing is... my electric bill didn't go up a measley $30 or so... it went up over $3 per day!!!  What gets me is I KNEW that would be the case... I've told people in the past not to buy them... but what did I do... got Sucker'd In.   Listen to me people... a Watt is a Watt is a Watt... it don't matter how fancy the package is or what the heating element is... it is still electric and electricity costs so much per Watt!   Do yourself a Favor... DON'T buy any of the so-called energy saving horse-shyt heaters that everybody and their brother is marketing these days, if you do, you'll reget it unless you live in a single room no larger than 300 square feet.  Seriously... don't believe all the HYPE being sold on TV and the Internet.  The old saying "there is no such thing as a Free Lunch" still holds true... at least in this country it does.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 05:30:50 PM
Tubercle and others spoke about ethanol being stupid, here is yet story (proof) that it is a stupid idea but one that certainly pulled the wool over America's eyes.

Some years ago, I'm guessing it was during the last ten years, one of the discovery or expose' type documentary shows did one involving a candy store... they literally "burned" their old candy for heating fuel, it was cost effective... For Them, because it was OLD candy that would have otherwise been thrown away and it was their own byproduct so to speak... no middleman etc. just a few modifications and walla.  Maybe somebody else out there remembers that documentary or can find a link to or about it.  I'll look and if I find it I'll post it later.

I guess what amazes me is how stupid we as Americans are becoming... we give everything of value away and believe everything we are told.  Kinda like that other saying... "choke on a gnat yet swallow a camel."   ::) 
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 23, 2011, 06:45:27 PM
I had a buds kid in my car for a ride. He looked at the cranks for the windows and asked "What are these"? I told him they are for rolling the windows up and down. HE said "Thats stupid"

What do you suppose he would have thought if you had had to step on a starter button on the floor board to get the engine to turn over?
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: jeffy on January 23, 2011, 06:52:50 PM
I had a buds kid in my car for a ride. He looked at the cranks for the windows and asked "What are these"? I told him they are for rolling the windows up and down. HE said "Thats stupid"

What do you suppose he would have thought if you had had to step on a starter button on the floor board to get the engine to turn over?

Speaking of taking things for granted, I got into a rental car last year that didn't have electric door locks or a remote trunk opener.  What a pain to have to reach over and lock and unlock the right door or to pull out the key to open the truck.  It's amazing what you can get used to.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 23, 2011, 07:04:58 PM
My Volkswagen doesn't even have a key-lock for the hatch. It's unlocked by a switch (like the gas hatch) on driver's side door or the fob. What happens if the switch breaks and I don't have the fob? BTW the fob is about $300. :o
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 23, 2011, 07:08:41 PM
I had a buds kid in my car for a ride. He looked at the cranks for the windows and asked "What are these"? I told him they are for rolling the windows up and down. HE said "Thats stupid"

What do you suppose he would have thought if you had had to step on a starter button on the floor board to get the engine to turn over?

 My Grandpa had an old Chev pickup (40 something model) that had the starter next to the gas petal. It was a trick to press the starter with your toe while pumping the gas petal with your heel. :D The horn button was on the end of the turn signal.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 23, 2011, 07:45:03 PM
I find it amusing to see people using technology to communicate dislike of advances in technology.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 07:54:02 PM
I find it amusing to see people using technology to communicate dislike of advances in technology.

Yeh, I like to eat too but that doesn't mean I enjoy having to take a crap.    :o   ;D
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: euge on January 23, 2011, 07:59:27 PM
I find it amusing to see people using technology to communicate dislike of advances in technology.

Yeh, I like to eat too but that doesn't mean I enjoy having to take a crap.    :o   ;D

Bet you will!  ;)

BTW I am in no way shape or form a Luddite. I love technology.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 23, 2011, 08:14:51 PM
I find it amusing to see people using technology to communicate dislike of advances in technology.

Yeh, I like to eat too but that doesn't mean I enjoy having to take a crap.    :o   ;D

Bet you will!  ;)

BTW I am in no way shape or form a Luddite. I love technology.

 Tubercle loves technology too but finds it strangely comforting when it doesn't exist. Several times when the power has been out for a week or so due to our infamous ice storms, sitting around burning kerosene lamps and picking a guitar seemed somewhat familiar. Hard to explain; Didn't really care if the power ever came back on.

 But I do love my Droid 2 phone. ;D
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 08:28:44 PM
Spouting big fancy words now huh?  So I guess I gotta go lookup what a Luddite is and have to use modern technology to do it even... grrrrrrrrrrrrr.   :D  ;D   Don't tell me... is it something like the word "Specicifity"... leave it to Georgy and his gang to stumble on a word and it ends up becoming a recognized word as a result.   :D  Ooops... sorry if I spelled "specicifity wrong?   ;D

I guess I kinda, sorta fit the second description of the word... only because I don't believe that just because its new means that its better.  Some things are better off left alone until they're broken and Then fix them.


World English Dictionary
Luddite  (ˈlʌdaɪt) 
 
— n   
1.  any of the textile workers opposed to mechanization who rioted and organized machine-breaking between 1811 and 1816 
2.  any opponent of industrial change or innovation 
 
— adj   
3.  of or relating to the Luddites 
 
[C19: alleged to be named after Ned Ludd,  an 18th-century Leicestershire workman, who destroyed industrial machinery] 
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: tubercle on January 23, 2011, 08:34:13 PM
 Tubercle had to do a research paper on the Luddites in college. It start out as one of the quick chop-job papers but the more research was done it became a fascination. It was like 5 pages was required but end up doing about 15. A kindred was felt.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: nicneufeld on January 23, 2011, 08:46:56 PM
So would "Lud Zeppelin" be the acoustic B-side to LZ III?
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: punatic on January 23, 2011, 08:49:27 PM
I take my technology ala carte.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 24, 2011, 12:27:42 PM
I wonder what percentage of under-20 drivers today can drive a stick? I'd guess in the neighborhood of 2.

or "heel-and-toeing" ,I spent years  getting my technique perfect.

Electronic stability control (ESC), ABS, Traction control system (TCS) Adaptive Chassis Control (ACC), GPS and the list goes on & on, makes you wonder how people drove without all the drivers aids ::)

Funny story about sticks vs automatic. In France and pretty much the rest of Europe, automatic trannys are usually used by disabled people. When we asked at the Peugeot dealership about getting an automatic, the guy asked what my disability was. I told him I was an American ;-) I love driving stick, I tell ya.

Also, if you get your driver's license by driving an automatic, you don't get a full DL, just a restricted one, which is a PITA.
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: dean on January 24, 2011, 03:59:01 PM
I may have already said this, I think I did... my truck is a stick and yep I love driving a stick too for the most part.  Sometimes an automatic would be nice to have though.

I would hazard a guess that people who have never driven on snow or only on rare occasions would be comparable to Mr Nate's question maybe?

I think the idea of a "restricted" drivers license for people that get their licenses with an automatic transmission is a good idea... it might prevent more deaths on the highway etc.  If nothing else... there would be less traffic at night or in inclement weather perhaps?  Good Idea!!  Two Thumbs Up!!   :)
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: bluesman on January 24, 2011, 05:51:58 PM
The way I see it is that the more technologically advanced we become the more responsibility we assume.

Less gadgets = simpler lifestyle

Of course I say that and I am a gadget geek.  ;D
Title: Re: Need some engineering help
Post by: redbeerman on January 24, 2011, 06:21:47 PM
The way I see it is that the more technologically advanced we become the more responsibility we assume.

Less gadgets = simpler lifestyle

Of course I say that and I am a gadget geek.  ;D

Yes you are. ;)