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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: pinnah on January 20, 2011, 03:20:33 am

Title: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: pinnah on January 20, 2011, 03:20:33 am
Those of you that have experimented with hopstand - adding flame out hops and NOT chilling for a while....
any words of wisdom or experiences on how to roughly calculate IBU contributions?

I suppose time and temp are big variables, but what does it taste like to YOU?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: dannyjed on January 20, 2011, 03:32:38 am
I doubt it will contribute very much at all to bitterness, just aroma.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: tygo on January 20, 2011, 03:35:14 am
Yeah, I don't think you'd have to worry much about calculating IBU's since it won't contribute much.  Also, by letting it sit there hot aren't you developing DMS pre-cursors which aren't getting volatilized?
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Malticulous on January 20, 2011, 03:45:28 am
I'm sure it's a IBU or two, but not within the threshold of perception.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: ethanjhall on January 20, 2011, 04:16:21 am
Yeah, I don't think you'd have to worry much about calculating IBU's since it won't contribute much.  Also, by letting it sit there hot aren't you developing DMS pre-cursors which aren't getting volatilized?

I've wondered why it's important to cool quickly after flameout... Can you explain that last part for a new brewer?
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: euge on January 20, 2011, 05:18:43 am

I've wondered why it's important to cool quickly after flameout... Can you explain that last part for a new brewer?

I think it helps clarity some and most people are in a hurry to get the wort into the fermenter and be done with it all the while worrying about bacteria getting into their wort before the yeast does...  :D As far as adding hops at flameout and letting it sit why not just do a first wort hop?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/HopSoup.htm (http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/HopSoup.htm)

Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: pinnah on January 20, 2011, 01:53:56 pm
why not just do a first wort hop?



 :) I had a little of that as well.  Here is my schedule:


FWH 1.0 oz Amarillo @ 9.4%
10     1.0 oz Amarillo
10     1.0 oz Simcoe @ 12.7%
5       1.0 oz Amarillo
5       1.0 oz Simcoe
0       3.0 oz Citra @ 12%

O.G. 1.070

I let it sit for 30 minutes before chilling @ around 190-180 degrees. 
Because of the continued heat, I was thinking that there would be increased and ongoing utilization...

Just wondering if anyone has been able to nail down BU's for this type of technique.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: blatz on January 20, 2011, 02:21:44 pm
:D As far as adding hops at flameout and letting it sit why not just do a first wort hop?


b/c the whole boiling process has forced off almost all of the volatiles/aromatic compounds from the FWH.  have you ever done an all FWH beer - almost no aroma whatsoever.

Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Hokerer on January 20, 2011, 02:23:55 pm
:D As far as adding hops at flameout and letting it sit why not just do a first wort hop?

b/c the whole boiling process has forced off almost all of the volatiles/aromatic compounds from the FWH.  have you ever done an all FWH beer - almost no aroma whatsoever.

Yep, FWH is all about flavor not aroma (at least in my experience).  If I want to maximize hop aroma, that's where I dry hop.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Hokerer on January 20, 2011, 02:27:34 pm
Yeah, I don't think you'd have to worry much about calculating IBU's since it won't contribute much.  Also, by letting it sit there hot aren't you developing DMS pre-cursors which aren't getting volatilized?

I've wondered why it's important to cool quickly after flameout... Can you explain that last part for a new brewer?

DMS is Dimethyl Sulfide and it's presence in your brew will give it a "cooked corn" flavor.  When you're boiling, the DMS pre-cursors are being "volatilized" (ie. they're being gotten rid of in the steam).  Once you stop boiling, the pre-cursors can start forming into DMS.  That conversion only happens above 140F so the sooner you get your wort below that temp, the less chance you have of having DMS issues.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: blatz on January 20, 2011, 02:38:33 pm
DMS is Dimethyl Sulfide and it's presence in your brew will give it a "cooked corn" flavor.  When you're boiling, the DMS pre-cursors are being "volatilized" (ie. they're being gotten rid of in the steam).  Once you stop boiling, the pre-cursors can start forming into DMS.  That conversion only happens above 140F so the sooner you get your wort below that temp, the less chance you have of having DMS issues.

we're starting to get this thread off course, but...

I thought you could boil off *most* of the DMS precursors with an extended boil, such that when you stop boiling its not as critical of an issue.  Hence why we boil pils malt worts for 90 min since they have more DMS precursors present.  ???
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: narvin on January 20, 2011, 03:03:42 pm
Those of you that have experimented with hopstand - adding flame out hops and NOT chilling for a while....
any words of wisdom or experiences on how to roughly calculate IBU contributions?

I suppose time and temp are big variables, but what does it taste like to YOU?

Thanks.


If you listen to the Firestone Walker episode of Can You Brew It, I think the brewer said something about their flameout hops contributing 20 or 25 IBUs in an 60 minute whirlpool, or something like that.  You'd have to go back and listen to get the specifics.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: tygo on January 20, 2011, 03:08:38 pm
we're starting to get this thread off course, but...

I thought you could boil off *most* of the DMS precursors with an extended boil, such that when you stop boiling its not as critical of an issue.  Hence why we boil pils malt worts for 90 min since they have more DMS precursors present.  ???

Yeah, I believe that's true.  And I don't know how much will continue to form after a 90 minute boil while the wort is above 140.  But I still try to get it chilled down below that as quickly is possible for that reason.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: blatz on January 20, 2011, 03:18:20 pm
Yeah, I believe that's true.  And I don't know how much will continue to form after a 90 minute boil while the wort is above 140.  But I still try to get it chilled down below that as quickly is possible for that reason.

sorry - did not mean to infer that you still shouldn't chill down as quickly as possible, just clarifying that there is less risk.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Hokerer on January 20, 2011, 03:20:31 pm
I thought you could boil off *most* of the DMS precursors with an extended boil, such that when you stop boiling its not as critical of an issue.  Hence why we boil pils malt worts for 90 min since they have more DMS precursors present.  ???

Agreed.  Then again "most" is not all and "critical" is subjective so, if it's relatively easy to do, why not chill as quickly as possible.  There're also other reasons to chill quickly (ie. better cold break and resultant better beer clarity, etc.).  

Basically, though, I was just responding to the poster who was asking for more explanation of tygo's comment about "volatilization".
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: tomsawyer on January 20, 2011, 03:21:30 pm
I think you only remove 75% of the SMM precursor in a 90min boil.  This brings it to an acceptable level but you still want to cool quickly or the other 25% can poetentially form DMS.  I don't think you could boil long enough to remove all of the precursor.

A hop stand includes keeping the wort hot (190F), just not boiling right?  I'd think you could get some isomerization in that case.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: johnf on January 20, 2011, 03:31:53 pm
I think you only remove 75% of the SMM precursor in a 90min boil.  This brings it to an acceptable level but you still want to cool quickly or the other 25% can poetentially form DMS.  I don't think you could boil long enough to remove all of the precursor.

A hop stand includes keeping the wort hot (190F), just not boiling right?  I'd think you could get some isomerization in that case.

DMS is volatile and so vigorous ale fermentations can remove quite a bit as well.

As for the hop stand. I do 30 minutes post flame out and I've been calculating it as a 20 minute addition using Tinseth and think that is about right, maybe 15 but not less.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: denny on January 20, 2011, 04:00:05 pm
As far as adding hops at flameout and letting it sit why not just do a first wort hop?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/HopSoup.htm (http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/HopSoup.htm)



Hops at flameout will get you aroma.  FWH gets you flavor.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: euge on January 20, 2011, 06:43:25 pm
I assumed it was about taste per the OP.

Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: jaybeerman on January 20, 2011, 06:58:14 pm
Ok, the need to hurry part comes from two situations - 1. Breweries who need to transfer and cool 20 bbl or so of hot wort to pitching temperature via a 2" hose.  2. Homebrewers who use to let the wort cool very slowly, like overnight.   In reality though since neither of those situations apply (to most of us), there isn't a huge need to hurry.  Don't worry about DMS if you have a good healthy boil and can chill your wort within 45-60 minutes of the end of boil.  Your aroma will really benefit from a 10 minute rest or if possible a ten minute whirlpool.  Oddly enough, if you can do a whirlpool the movement will extract aroma, a little more flavor and even some negligible ibu.   Cheers, j
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: blatz on January 20, 2011, 07:05:08 pm
hmm - I think i am going to try this on my next batch (IPA), albeit with a hopback, recircing into the BK...
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Kaiser on January 20, 2011, 07:07:10 pm
I have gotten a very nice noble hop aroma and flavor in a Pils I brewed with only FWH and bittering hops. I'll have to try this again but I thing I do get aroma and flavor from FWH, But you have to keep in mind that this flavor and aroma will have a different character.

As for the Hopstand, I have tried this with good success on a Pale Ale. The hop aroma/flavor was very nice and not as raw and grassy as the dryhopped version that was the other half of this side-by-side. To reduce the DMS formation I dropped the temperature for the hop stand to 80 C and let the wort sit a this temp for 30 min after adding the hops.

I did not account for the additional isomerization from both the newly added hops and the alpha acids that are already in the wot from previous hop additions. I don't remember the hop stand beer being more bitter but I also had a minor boil-over with this beer in which I may have lost some bittering hops.

Kai
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: SiameseMoose on January 20, 2011, 07:19:33 pm
A friend brewed a German pilsner, and due to circumstances beyond his control, could not cool it for over an hour. Compared to his regular pilsner, it was considerably more bitter. My estimate from a taste test was ibu's increased from upper 30's to over 50.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: jaybeerman on January 20, 2011, 07:22:22 pm
I have gotten a very nice noble hop aroma and flavor in a Pils I brewed with only FWH and bittering hops. I'll have to try this again but I thing I do get aroma and flavor from FWH, But you have to keep in mind that this flavor and aroma will have a different character.

I forgot to mention that it is all dependent on the base beer (i.e. IIPA or Pils).  I agree that the flavor (and some aroma) from fwh in a lighter base such as pilsner is fantastic.


<added>  Does anyone have experience using the lowered temp hopstand method and also (on a different occasion) using a hopback?  I'm curious how you thought the two compaired.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Kaiser on January 20, 2011, 07:26:50 pm
I think you can substantially limit the IBU increase and DMS production by dropping the temp for the hop stand by 20 C (40 F) for example. That lower temp should still be hot enough for good aroma and flavor extraction from the hops.

Kai
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: johnf on January 20, 2011, 08:12:59 pm
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?

Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop "flavor"?
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: jeffy on January 20, 2011, 08:22:48 pm
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?

Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop "flavor"?

That's pretty deep, johnf.  You're asking which flavor out of these: sweet, salty, sour, bitter or umami?
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 20, 2011, 08:28:36 pm
Those of you that have experimented with hopstand - adding flame out hops and NOT chilling for a while....
any words of wisdom or experiences on how to roughly calculate IBU contributions?
I suppose time and temp are big variables, but what does it taste like to YOU?
Thanks.
If you listen to the Firestone Walker episode of Can You Brew It, I think the brewer said something about their flameout hops contributing 20 or 25 IBUs in an 60 minute whirlpool, or something like that.  You'd have to go back and listen to get the specifics.
A long vigorous boil gets rid of the pre cursors.   Many breweries use a long whirlpool.  Kiwanda Cream ale from Pilican Pub has no boil hops.  They add the hops to the whirlpool for an hour, and get 25 IBU's measured.  That one wins a lot of awards.  
Firestone Walker uses a very big charge at KO, and lets those stand.   I have a clone from the CYBI episode, and it has more than enough bitterness.  Plenty of hop flavor too.  A big charge of Dry hops give the aroma.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: dean on January 21, 2011, 12:39:13 am
I think Chris wrote an article about hopstanding about a year ago... posted it on NB's board if I remember right.  Somebody posted that quickly chilling gives better clarity?  I've tried using an IC and a Plate Chiller... the PC cooled the wort to the mid 60's very quickly but my beer still wasn't  clear.  I've found that letting my wort cool overnight doesn't taste like cooked corn or cabbage either.  It doesn't matter how long you take to let it chill in that respect as far as I can tell... I think its another one of those myths being carried on by the hord.   ;D  The only time I "have to" use a chiller is in the summer, even then I could just put my keg in the creek... did that last year too... it sat in flowing water about 6 inches deep and cooled overnight.  I've noticed no ill effects from slow chilling.  I'm also getting far less paranoid about wild yeast and or bacteria... just cleanup well and on brewday... RDWHAHB and go with it.  I've even had my arm in chilled wort up to my elbow... shoulda been a really nasty batch that one... but amazingly 11 grams of dry yeast somehow got the jump on all the other critters and beat them out of the gate if you can imagine that.   :o  ;D   ;)
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Hokerer on January 21, 2011, 12:55:36 am
I've even had my arm in chilled wort up to my elbow... shoulda been a really nasty batch that one...

Reminds me of what we used to drink back in college.  Everyone would bring a bottle of clear liquor, dump it in a big plastic trash can, add some Hawaiian Punch mix, and then stir it by sticking your whole arm in there.  It was called a "Hairy Buffalo" cuz it'd eat the hairs right off your arm.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: pinnah on January 21, 2011, 01:23:31 am
Hmmm, seems that a late chill Hopstand method for increased hop character
lacks real documentation regarding how to "exactly" calculate BU contribution. 

Thanks very much and some of the ideas gleaned from the responses include:

As for the hop stand. I do 30 minutes post flame out and I've been calculating it as a 20 minute addition using Tinseth and think that is about right, maybe 15 but not less.

My estimate from a taste test was ibu's increased from upper 30's to over 50.


I think Chris wrote an article about hopstanding about a year ago... posted it on NB's board if I remember right.

Thanks Dean, I finally found it.  Chris thinks about 10% more BU's with this method.
Link:  Mashweasel (http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=76188&hilit=hop+stand)


I guess I will find out what it tastes (as in extra bitterness) like to me.  She is just now starting at 56 degrees. ;)

Cheers.


Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: dean on January 21, 2011, 01:32:56 am
Yep.... I remember the Hairy Buffalo, mostly we just called them Trash Can parties though.  But those already had a significant amount of alcohol in them to kill any little critters compared to fresh cooled wort.  I don't know... I think that too much worrying is just as bad as too many cooks... RDWHAHB.  I worried way too much for a while with brewing, and the more I worried the less my beer became.  Its the simple, less worrisome things that really shine.   8)

Honestly, IMO... IBU calculations are bs... just some numbers thrown in in order to place some sort of unknown value on bitterness.  Its like asking how hot is hot, or asking someone else if you would like what they like.  Most of the recipe calculators assign far too low of a bitterness value imo.  Then there is different types of bitterness calc's, Rager, Tinseth, etc. etc. etc. 

Pinnah, just Do It and tell us what You thought of it and what if anything you would do differently next time.  Thats how I roll from now on... I'm the one thats gonna drink it.   ;D
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: tygo on January 21, 2011, 01:51:57 am
IBU calculations for most homebrewers are just an indication of how bitter a beer may be in relation to other beers that you've brewed.  I agree that whatever you calculate as your IBU's is probably not what you're going to get if you send it to a lab to be analyzed. 

But as long as you keep your methodology for calculating the IBU's consistent you can use those numbers as an indication of how much bitterness a particular beer may have when you brew it on your system.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: johnf on January 21, 2011, 02:51:28 am
IBU calculations for most homebrewers are just an indication of how bitter a beer may be in relation to other beers that you've brewed. 

Yep it is all empirical and this is what pro brewers understand. Not bitter enough? More hops next time.

If someone were willing to make a lot of wort and get IBUs measured on them, both Tinseth and Rager models can be refit to that data (rather than Tinseth's or Rager's data).
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: piratepointbrewer on January 23, 2011, 05:17:17 pm
We do both First Wort hops and "0" Min hops at flame out. We can only offer our observations as we don't spend the money to have our beer or our hops analyzed.

First wort hops seem to bring hop flavor into the beer even though it is later boiled. We often hear (read) that you can't taste bittering hops. We feel you can definately taste First worted hops. We have never precieved an aroma from First Worted hops. Since we don't have analysis done we accept the commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's.

"0" Minuit or Flame Out hops. This is easy to do. We don't worry about rushing to the chiller as long as we stay 160*F+ and keep it covered, there is little risk of contamination. In fact the Austrailian Brew In A Bag folks never chill. The just put it in a covered container and let it sit overnight. We add our flame out hops to the hop bag and let them steep for 20 min. We definatly can get the Aroma effects, second, some of the hop oils stay on your lips for a few seconds after a drink. The taste is great and the preception of breathing in the hop is a very nice addition. Again since we don't analyze, we just assume no addition to IBU.

Summary  1st wort does add flavor, no aroma, and 10% boost to bittering IBU. Flame out adds a very interesting flavor and aroma effect. We assume no additional IBU.

Preston
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: denny on January 23, 2011, 05:24:33 pm
Even though my experiment found that actual IBUs were increased by10% by FWH, I still calculate them as adding the same amount of bitterness as a 20 min. addition because that's how I perceive them.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: jeffy on January 23, 2011, 05:40:01 pm
"commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's"

10% boost over what? Zero or 60 minute addition?
I just checked what ProMash does with an addition at FWH and compared it to 60 minute and the value for FWH was about 10% less.  I have it set to whatever the default calculation is.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: dean on January 23, 2011, 05:48:53 pm
But as long as you keep your methodology for calculating the IBU's consistent you can use those numbers as an indication of how much bitterness a particular beer may have when you brew it on your system.

Good point, I would agree with that and its taken me this long to figure that out.  I remember posting recipes and others thinking I wasn't adding enough hops or conversely that I was making a hop bomb... on their systems that may very well have been true.   Its also why I don't post recipes often...  :D  I've tried other people's recipes too, some work, some don't. 
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: bluesman on January 23, 2011, 06:21:20 pm
I've pondered hopstanding and it's perceived effects many times. I think a flameout addition will dissolve the essential oils (lupulin) from the glands of the hops and lend a very aromatic wort. However after every minute of soaking time I think there is loss of  some aromatics. The aromatic compounds slowly volatilize over time as they soak in the near boiling wort. How much? That's the question I keep asking myself. I think there's a window of opportunity to capture the very fresh aromatics in the wort. 5min, 10 min, 30 min?

Hops for thought.  :)
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 23, 2011, 06:57:24 pm
I've pondered hopstanding and it's perceived effects many times. I think a flameout addition will dissolve the essential oils (lupulin) from the glands of the hops and lend a very aromatic wort. However after every minute of soaking time I think there is loss of  some aromatics. The aromatic compounds slowly volatilize over time as they soak in the near boiling wort. How much? That's the question I keep asking myself. I think there's a window of opportunity to capture the very fresh aromatics in the wort. 5min, 10 min, 30 min?
Hops for thought.  :)
The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds.  The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop.  I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F

I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: johnf on January 23, 2011, 07:00:49 pm
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".

Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: gmwren on January 23, 2011, 07:17:49 pm

The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds.  The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop.  I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F

I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that hops high in low temp flash points of essential oils make good candidates for dry hopping? I see some of my favorites on the Hopunion data page are high in Farnesene:
Amarillo 2-4%
Cascade 4-8%
Saaz (US) 9-13%
Sterling 11-17%
Some I don't like for dry hop, but do like for late or whirlpool hopping are low in Farnesene:
Chinook <1%
Columbus <1%
Hallertau <1%
Simcoe <1%
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: denny on January 23, 2011, 07:32:09 pm
"commonly published 10% boost to the bittering IBU's"

10% boost over what? Zero or 60 minute addition?
I just checked what ProMash does with an addition at FWH and compared it to 60 minute and the value for FWH was about 10% less.  I have it set to whatever the default calculation is.

10% more IBU than a 60 min. addition is what I found.  But like I said, in my recipes I count it as a 20 min. addition, since I don't perceive the same amount of bitterness as a 60 min. addition.  To do that, I set my Promash FWH utilization at -65%.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: denny on January 23, 2011, 07:34:21 pm
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".



It may add aroma, but you don't perceive that aroma as a separate thing.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: johnf on January 23, 2011, 08:48:54 pm
1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".



It may add aroma, but you don't perceive that aroma as a separate thing.

That's apparently not a uniform perception as the tasting panel described in the '95 Brauwelt article on FWH didn't perceive aroma.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 23, 2011, 09:21:46 pm
The essential oils can combine to form the flavor compounds.  The essential oils are in the beer if you dry hop.  I have aded hops at 180F to keep some in the beer, or let it combine.
Flash points for the essential oils.
Caryophyllene=200F
Humulene=110F
Myrcene=103F
Farnesene=79F
I think you see which aroma oils ones are had by dry hopping.
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that hops high in low temp flash points of essential oils make good candidates for dry hopping? I see some of my favorites on the Hopunion data page are high in Farnesene:
Amarillo 2-4%
Cascade 4-8%
Saaz (US) 9-13%
Sterling 11-17%
Some I don't like for dry hop, but do like for late or whirlpool hopping are low in Farnesene:
Chinook <1%
Columbus <1%
Hallertau <1%
Simcoe <1%
[/quote]
It has to do with the flash points.  That big blast of aroma you get when putting a charge of hops into the boil - that are the oils leaving the beer.  Some get disolved and turn into flavor compunds.  Dry hopping at roon temperature allow those with the lower flash point to disolve into the beer, rather than being driven off.
Farensene=floral.  Myrcene = citrus and fruity.  Humulene=spicy and dank.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: denny on January 23, 2011, 09:22:19 pm
That's what I was getting at.  I've done a couple batches with nothing but FWH.  I perceived hop flavor, but I didn't perceive aroma.  According to what you said about tasting, there must have been aroma there, but I didn't perceive it separately from flavor.  In my blind tasting, I noted no hop aroma whatsoever.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: Kaiser on January 23, 2011, 09:31:44 pm
Based on a presentation at the last NHC, there is a good chance that commercial hop drying drives of most of the Farnesene.

Kai
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 23, 2011, 11:21:57 pm
Based on a presentation at the last NHC, there is a good chance that commercial hop drying drives of most of the Farnesene.

Kai

You are correct.  Unless you grow and dry your own.   ;)
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: tschmidlin on January 24, 2011, 06:33:11 am
How is it possible to have hop flavor without aroma?

Specifically what other than bittering compounds sensed by the tongue and retronasal perception of volatile aromatic compounds contributes to hop "flavor"?

1st wort does add flavor, no aroma,

To reiterate, unless current scientific understand of how flavor is perceived is wrong, this is impossible. The "flavor" of hops is a combination of the bitterness, sensed by the tongue, and the aroma sensed retronasally. If there is no aroma, the flavor is simply "bitter".
Impossible is a dangerous word :)

It is possible to have perceived flavor and no aroma if the volatilization temperature of the compound is higher than the beer temp and lower than your mouth temp.  As the beer warms in your mouth it will release different compounds and more of some that may push it above the level where it can be detected.  If that's the case though, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be driven off by boiling your FWH.

It is also possible that a reaction with the chemical environment in your mouth releases some aromatic compound and gives you a perceived flavor but no aroma from the glass.

I'm not saying it is either of these things, but they are possible explanations. ;)
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: chaz on January 24, 2011, 10:34:12 am
Here's some excerpts from Mike "Tasty" McDole's Facebook feed from earlier this month, I don't think he'd mind. I think he might even be looking for others to help experiment from the sounds of it:

Mike: Today I'm trying to unravel the mystery of hop utilization in the whirlpool. I could use some help.
I was thinking the challenge here is to develop a formula based on the alpha acid level, volume, temperature, and time. I could just make one batch of minimally hopped wort and whirlpool small amounts, collecting samples over 30 minute period for a given alpha at a given temperature. I'm looking for some help a brewery that has their own equipment for determining IBU levels.

Mitch Steele (Stone Brewing): 18% of our wort bitterness in Stone Ruination IPA comes from the whirlpool addition. I'll have to do the calculation to see what that is in terms of efficiency.

Mike: That's great info Mitch. That's what I'm looking for here. Matt says he gets 22%. (I'm assuming he's talking about Matt Brynildson/Firestone Walker)

Mitch: 18% is the percentage of total IBU's we get. We dump a lot of hops in the whirlpool, so I need to calculate the actual utilization. Our whirlpool is 15 minute fill, 15 minute rest and 45 minute KO-total 75 minutes
OK, I did the calc, it looks like 9.6% utilization with our hops that are added prior to filling the whirlpool, 75 minute residence time at ~200dF, added to 18dP wort.

Jim Matt: At Sun King, for our Osiris Pale Ale, (according to our magic spreadsheet) it looks like we are ~10% utilization for a 20 minute whirlpool and a 60 minute knockout, on a 30 BBL batch.

Colin Kaminski: Mitch, do you calculate the amount of IBUs stripped by the yeast and does that effect your pitching rates?

Mitch Steele: No we don't. We can measure IBU, so we measure wort IBU and beer IBU, and adjust hopping rates if beer IBU drifts. Of course, pitch rates need to be consistent! I tried to talk the A-B R&D dept. into doing a similar study, but couldn't get the proposal through, given that we weren't maximizing hop usage or brewing really high gravity beers. However, what I do know about this came from the work we did get done at A-B. I think Tom Shellhammer up in Oregon might be looking at this too.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 24, 2011, 04:04:19 pm
I would pay more attention to the utilization number than the % of total IBUs.  The ~10% utilization is good information.

Ruination has a big bittering charge at 60 minutes - at least in the BYO recipe that the Stone brewers provided.

FW UnionJack has fewer IBUs from the boil, but a huge charge into the whirlpool.  Listen to the FW episodes in the Brewing Network.

Pelican Pubs Kiwanda Cream ale has 100% of the IBUs from the whirlpool, as they add no hops to the boil per Darron Welch in BYO.
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: pinnah on January 24, 2011, 10:21:32 pm
Very cool information Chaz!  Thanks.


   
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: chaz on January 27, 2011, 10:34:51 pm
Pelican Pubs Kiwanda Cream ale has 100% of the IBUs from the whirlpool, as they add no hops to the boil per Darron Welch in BYO.

I just got this from one of the brewers:
Our procedure for Kiwanda is to add all the hops at boil stop, ramp down the kettle temp., whirlpool for about 3 mins., and then rest for about 30. Knock-outs take about 30 mins. We send all our beers to Analysis Labs here in Oregon, where IBU's are measured as low as 21, and as high as 29 consistently

I asked how many pounds per barrel they add and he replied:

11 pounds. We usually knock out 18-19 barrels.
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I'm thinking he meant 11 pounds total and not lb/bbl...? Because on a homebrew scale that'd be what, around 2 pounds in a 6 gal batch (?) which seems pretty crazy to me... where 11lb total would be close to 2 ounces?
Title: Re: Hopstand Flame out hops - IBU contributions
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 27, 2011, 11:35:08 pm
The homebrew recipes that I have seen for Kiwanda have 2 Oz of Mt Hood for 5 gallons.  Hope this helps.