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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: oscarvan on January 27, 2011, 02:23:37 AM

Title: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 27, 2011, 02:23:37 AM
Yes I know that time is good for beer...... but there's a time and a place for time. This week ain't it.

Saturday night I need to perform and deliver a keg with drinkable beer in it. So, on 1/20 I brewed the house APA, and with a re-pitch of 1056 it went nuts and now it is done with the primary....in fact it was done yesterday. FG right where I want it, taste is excellent! So, I would keg it and force carbonate it and slurp it up with the others at the party....

But, as much as I myself like green beer, I was thinking I'd clean it up a little. So as I was strolling around the interweb I found this...

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/midwest-beer-clarity-filter-system.html

Now, since I need this tomorrow, I can go to Home Despot and cobble something just like it together. In fact, two filters in series, 5 and 1 or less micron.....Do the two keg thing an presto, she done.

Remember this won't be a sipping beer, this will be a "bunch of people having a party" beer.....

Any comments on what I intend to do?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 27, 2011, 02:37:33 AM
Green beer is better than no beer. You can also try a fining agent to help clear it up a bit. I use gelatin to clear my beers. It's cheap and easy to use. Let me know if you need instructions for use.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 27, 2011, 03:22:53 AM
Gelatin still needs 4-5 days......
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tschmidlin on January 27, 2011, 05:45:54 AM
Crash cool it and carbonate it.  Now is not the time to be messing with filters and such.  Get it REALLY cold and it will help clarify it.  If you really want it "aged", pump some air into it and let it oxidize :)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tumarkin on January 27, 2011, 12:10:24 PM
+1 to Tom's advice. 

Also, it'd be best to deliver the keg to serving location as early as possible to allow it to settle out there, day before if you can. If it's still too cloudy for your liking by Sat., provide opaque (dark red or blue) plastic cups along with beer. Don't say anything about clarity, and likely no one else will either.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 27, 2011, 02:46:13 PM
Gelatin still needs 4-5 days......
I disagree. Crash cool as low as you can go and add some gelatin and from my experience you will clear in 24hrs. The key is to get the beer super cold without freezing it.  ;)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: uthristy on January 27, 2011, 03:17:04 PM
If anybody ask about being hazy just reply its "all natural for full flavor" , now if they get the trotts the next day... :o

Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: Hokerer on January 27, 2011, 03:36:36 PM
and even if they don't get the trots, those whose systems aren't used to the yeast in homebrew are very likely to have the uhh, errr, "airs".  I took my first batch of homebrew to a family party in Philly and we drove back to Virginia afterwards.  It was a very "fragrant" ride home. :)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: dak0415 on January 27, 2011, 04:09:49 PM
Gelatin still needs 4-5 days......
I disagree. Crash cool as low as you can go and add some gelatin and from my experience you will clear in 24hrs. The key is to get the beer super cold without freezing it.  ;)
Bluesman,
How do you prepare gelatin for 30 deg beer?  I would think it would clot right up immediately.  I've used Polyclar and I filter, but I have never used gelatin.

Dave
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 27, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
Gelatin still needs 4-5 days......
I disagree. Crash cool as low as you can go and add some gelatin and from my experience you will clear in 24hrs. The key is to get the beer super cold without freezing it.  ;)
Bluesman,
How do you prepare gelatin for 30 deg beer?  I would think it would clot right up immediately.  I've used Polyclar and I filter, but I have never used gelatin.

Dave

For a five gallon keg.

1 tsp gelatin
1 cup water @ RT

Heat gelatin and water in microwave until the first bubble appears and remove. Chill mixture in refrigerator until cool to touch but don't let it gealatinize. Add chilled gelatin mixture to chilled keg and stir in very gently as not to introduce oxygen into beer. Allow beer to chill for 24-48 hrs and blow out gelatin from bottom of keg. I usually lose a half pint to blow out. More often than not I get very clear beer using this method.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: denny on January 27, 2011, 04:47:53 PM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: dcbc on January 27, 2011, 04:55:21 PM
Food for future thought.  If you are brewing a beer you know will need to be rushed out, hefeweizen is a good style to go with.  Ferments crazy fast, doesn't need to be clear, and is great young.

Agree with gelatin working in 24 hours. 

I use one pack of knox for 10 gallons.  Put it in 1 cup of room temp water and leave for 20 minutes so it blooms.  Put it in the microwave until I see that first bubble of boiling water and stop immediately.  Add it to keg of 32 degree beer (I use a 10 gal corny with the dip tube cut off).  Wait 24--48 hours and transfer to serving kegs.

I used to do the gelatin in the serving kegs, but when I moved them to the kegerator or if I had to transport them to a party, the stuff that I had worked so hard to get to drop out would get stirred up again.  This way, that still happens, but there is much less there to get stirred up after the transfer.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: corkybstewart on January 27, 2011, 05:52:33 PM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
I learned that lesson the hard way also.  If the beer isn't ready to serve with pride there's always beer for sale at the store.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 27, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
I learned that lesson the hard way also.  If the beer isn't ready to serve with pride there's always beer for sale at the store.

Yes. If there is some sound advice I can give to a new homebrewer. It's goes something like this...sanitize well, pitch plenty of healthy yeast into a well aerated wort at cool temps, ferment cool and exercise alot of patience. Oh...one more thing...keep a decent stock of some good micro's (emergency stash) to hold you over.  ;D
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: Kaiser on January 27, 2011, 06:20:36 PM
I’ve been there. Even the 1 um spun filter will not be fine enough to clear the beer since it doesn’t remove protein haze.

Kai
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: euge on January 27, 2011, 07:06:38 PM
Gelatin still needs 4-5 days......
I disagree. Crash cool as low as you can go and add some gelatin and from my experience you will clear in 24hrs. The key is to get the beer super cold without freezing it.  ;)
Bluesman,
How do you prepare gelatin for 30 deg beer?  I would think it would clot right up immediately.  I've used Polyclar and I filter, but I have never used gelatin.

Dave

For a five gallon keg.

1 tsp gelatin
1 cup water @ RT

Heat gelatin and water in microwave until the first bubble appears and remove. Chill mixture in refrigerator until cool to touch but don't let it gealatinize. Add chilled gelatin mixture to chilled keg and stir in very gently as not to introduce oxygen into beer. Allow beer to chill for 24-48 hrs and blow out gelatin from bottom of keg. I usually lose a half pint to blow out. More often than not I get very clear beer using this method.

I would like to try this for certain beers, but would also plan to do it in primary or secondary and not in the keg. Same procedure?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 28, 2011, 02:59:11 AM
Thanks for all the input. It has been kegged and force carbed, the large chunks have settled down, and been tapped and discarded. I am skipping the filtering, for the simple reason that the particular system that I was considering has a lot of loss in the filter itself.....

It is hazy, but it tastes great. It will be "marketed" as a "Green IPA" (Ultra fresh with lots of nutrients).

It will be consumed by 30 people, cramped in a hotel room, stuffing their faces with delivery pizza. I have a feeling it will be most appreciated.  ;D

One thing I did confirm, is that you need to reduce your bittering hops when you convert an extract recipe to AG..... :o
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: euge on January 28, 2011, 03:06:19 AM
Thanks for all the input. It has been kegged and force carbed, the large chunks have settled down, and been tapped and discarded. I am skipping the filtering, for the simple reason that the particular system that I was considering has a lot of loss in the filter itself.....

It is hazy, but it tastes great. It will be "marketed" as a "Green IPA" (Ultra fresh with lots of nutrients).

It will be consumed by 30 people, cramped in a hotel room, stuffing their faces with delivery pizza. I have a feeling it will be most appreciated.  ;D

One thing I did confirm, is that you need to reduce your bittering hops when you convert an extract recipe to AG..... :o

Sounds like fun I'm sure they'll love it!

Why the need to reduce hop amounts? Were you doing concentrated boils?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: corkybstewart on January 28, 2011, 04:12:25 AM
I just hope the 30 people crammed into a hotel room don't get the screaming green beer farts, it will be like falling headfirst intoa septic tank.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tubercle on January 28, 2011, 05:29:36 AM
1. Styrofoam cups (I think someone already mentioned the red plastic ones).

2. Study the likes and times and philosophy of P.T.Barnum, my personal hero and mentor.

3. Practice this is a mirror: "Do you realize how much you would have to pay for beer of this quality in a store?..and you're getting it for free? Very few professional breweries can produce beer with this character. Notice the slight haze? They can't do that even with all of their several million $$$ worth of equipment and I did this in my basement! If you want more you better get it now because its going pretty fast".
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tschmidlin on January 28, 2011, 08:00:34 AM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
The key, I've found, is to make a beer that can be done very quickly.  Low alcohol, lots of yeast, etc.  Tastes great :)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: jklinck on January 28, 2011, 09:51:11 AM
The canister filter isn't the best option, you want to use a plate filter like this one:
http://morebeer.com/view_product/5759/103554/Beer_and_Wine_Plate_Filter_Kit_

I've been using a plate filter for about a year and couldn't be happier. So far I have found ZERO cons to using a filter.

On a side note I just confirmed with Vinnie Cilurzo (owner/head brewer Russian River) that all bottled Pliny is filtered AFTER dry hopping. So that should put to rest the whole myth that filtering has any effect on flavor or aroma.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 28, 2011, 12:25:42 PM
3. Practice this is a mirror: "Do you realize how much you would have to pay for beer of this quality in a store?..and you're getting it for free? Very few professional breweries can produce beer with this character. Notice the slight haze? They can't do that even with all of their several million $$$ worth of equipment and I did this in my basement! If you want more you better get it now because its going pretty fast".

Priceless  :D
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 28, 2011, 12:26:49 PM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
The key, I've found, is to make a beer that can be done very quickly.  Low alcohol, lots of yeast, etc.  Tastes great :)

Hefe's come to mind here Tom.  :)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tschmidlin on January 28, 2011, 05:04:05 PM
I'll just add that every single time I try to rush a beer to meet my schedule, I've been disappointed.  Do you really want to serve people beer that isn't the best representation of what you can do?
The key, I've found, is to make a beer that can be done very quickly.  Low alcohol, lots of yeast, etc.  Tastes great :)

Hefe's come to mind here Tom.  :)
Sure, but lots of styles lend themselves to it.  Ant Hayes made a comment somewhere around here about English running beers.  Here it is:

I quite often brew on a Saturday and serve the following Friday.

English running beer is what you are after - ordinary bitter, London brown ale, milds, sweet stouts, etc..

Both Windsor and Nottingham yeasts can finish by Wednesday - Windsor finishes before Nottingham but doesn't ferment as dry.
Two sachets of dry yeast for 20 litres does the trick. I ferment at around 18°C.

Rack into a keg Wednesday night and chill. Carbonate (and dry hop) Thursday night and serve on Friday night.

The beer may be a little hazy - ceramic mugs help - but fresh beer tastes great.

Ant Hayes
Tonbridge, Kent
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: bluesman on January 28, 2011, 05:20:52 PM
I quite often brew on a Saturday and serve the following Friday.

English running beer is what you are after - ordinary bitter, London brown ale, milds, sweet stouts, etc..

Both Windsor and Nottingham yeasts can finish by Wednesday - Windsor finishes before Nottingham but doesn't ferment as dry.
Two sachets of dry yeast for 20 litres does the trick. I ferment at around 18°C.

Rack into a keg Wednesday night and chill. Carbonate (and dry hop) Thursday night and serve on Friday night.

The beer may be a little hazy - ceramic mugs help - but fresh beer tastes great.

Ant Hayes
Tonbridge, Kent

I can believe it. The fermentation is probably done in two days and a couple more days of cleaning up then cold crash and keg. AFAIAC...5 gallons of beer in a weeks time is a beautiful thing.  :)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: euge on January 28, 2011, 06:06:20 PM
I started out brewing like this. Great beer can be made quickly- particularly if one kegs. I might just knock a quickie out this evening.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 28, 2011, 06:50:01 PM
OK, I changed my mind, again.....  ;D

Today ran it through a 25 micron and 5 micron filter in series...... It got the big chunks out and most of the haze, although not all. After a few hours in the fridge It looks presentable to me, and again, it's a party not a competition. And, it tastes absolutely wonderful, I am pleased.

Euge, I like the sales pitch..... but mine is:

It's like bread, fresh out of the oven. Nothing is better!
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: euge on January 28, 2011, 07:21:12 PM
OK, I changed my mind, again.....  ;D

Today ran it through a 25 micron and 5 micron filter in series...... It got the big chunks out and most of the haze, although not all. After a few hours in the fridge It looks presentable to me, and again, it's a party not a competition. And, it tastes absolutely wonderful, I am pleased.

Euge, I like the sales pitch..... but mine is:

It's like bread, fresh out of the oven. Nothing is better!

Hey post some pics!

I read a year or so ago that using the house filters reduced the conditioning time. Haven't tried it myself!
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: dak0415 on January 28, 2011, 08:03:51 PM
I've been filtering for 3 of my 4.5 years homebrewing, using the 10" house type filters.
I view filtering as shortening the natural conditioning time.  I use 1 micron spun filters with no fining for porters or other opaque beers, no filtering for weizens (naturally) and .5 micron (absolute) for beers that I want sparkling clear (most).  One week, at least, conditioning at 30 deg, add 1 tbs of polyclar per 5 gallons, then filter while the PPVC is still in suspension.  This combination removes any chill haze, the PPVC builds up on the filter, adding to the depth and attracting more haze as the beer passes through.  I move my beer around a lot for parties and festivals and this process leaves NO sediment even after months of storage.  The washable filter will last me about a year or 200 gallons, whichever comes first.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 30, 2011, 02:16:18 PM
It was good 'till the last drop.. 8).... Will post a picture of the filtration setup when I get home....

Now I have to brew more....
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tom on January 30, 2011, 03:34:31 PM
How did the process go? Any advice?
TIA
OK, I changed my mind, again.....  ;D

Today ran it through a 25 micron and 5 micron filter in series...... It got the big chunks out and most of the haze, although not all. After a few hours in the fridge It looks presentable to me, and again, it's a party not a competition. And, it tastes absolutely wonderful, I am pleased.

Euge, I like the sales pitch..... but mine is:

It's like bread, fresh out of the oven. Nothing is better!
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 31, 2011, 01:12:52 AM
The process went well. and it's really easy to set up..... The only thing I need to do is order some 5 and .5 micron filters, and then it takes everything out. You rack into a keg, close it up, hook up the filter and run it through the filter into a second, open, keg.

Of course, the REAL solution is to get busy brewing and have enough kegs in stock that they can condition properly and I still have enough for house consumption and the parties.....

But, in a pinch the filtering works.
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tom on January 31, 2011, 02:21:18 AM
Brew early and brew often!
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on January 31, 2011, 03:53:37 PM
OK, here's the evidence......

(http://www.woodenshoemusic.com/WSBW/Filtration_files/P1280002.jpg)
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 01, 2011, 03:48:57 AM
Was beer carbonated when you filter?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: tom on February 01, 2011, 04:06:02 AM
OK, here's the evidence
Did you keep the filters upside down for a purpose?
Title: Re: Filtration.....
Post by: oscarvan on February 01, 2011, 10:03:11 AM
Beer not carbonated, don't think that would be good.

Right side up to begin (there's a bleed valve on top to fill them), upside down to finish and try and not have the two containers full of waste.