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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 02:18:52 AM

Title: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 02:18:52 AM
It eludes me. The profiles I have seen seem very hard to reach using my brewing software. Anyone have a great Vienna Lager water profile they could share? I have come across some drastically different profiles for this beer, from Palmer to Vienna, to Ray Daniels. Never brewed this style, but I hear the actual profile is hard to reach as I have discovered. Adding this salt adds WAY too much of that etc. School me! Seems no matter what I add, nothing will add up.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2011, 02:30:53 AM
My bet is Kai or Martin will have your answer but I'll take a shot at it.  :)


Vienna - The water of this city is similar to Dortmund, but lacks the level of calcium to balance the carbonates, and lacks as well the sodium and chloride for flavor. Attempts to imitate Dortmund Export failed miserably until a percentage of toasted malt was added to balance the mash, and Vienna's famous red-amber lagers were born.



Calcium     Magnesium    Bicarbonate     SO4-2     Na+1      Cl-1
(Ca+2)         (Mg+2)           (HCO3-1)

  163                68                   243              216           8           39

Taken from Palmer's book.
 
 


Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 02:39:07 AM
My bet is Kai or Martin will have your answer but I'll take a shot at it.  :)


Vienna - The water of this city is similar to Dortmund, but lacks the level of calcium to balance the carbonates, and lacks as well the sodium and chloride for flavor. Attempts to imitate Dortmund Export failed miserably until a percentage of toasted malt was added to balance the mash, and Vienna's famous red-amber lagers were born.



Calcium     Magnesium    Bicarbonate     SO4-2     Na+1      Cl-1
(Ca+2)         (Mg+2)           (HCO3-1)

  163                68                   243              216           8           39

Taken from Palmer's book.


Yes, That's Palmers... Now try and hit that in the software! :) Or any of these for that matter. Maybe I am missing something big. In fact, I am sure I am missing something big.

Daniels...

Calcium     Magnesium    Bicarbonate     SO4-2     Na+1      Cl-1
(Ca+2)         (Mg+2)           (HCO3-1)

  50                20                   76              52           10           13

Vienna...

Calcium     Magnesium    Bicarbonate     SO4-2     Na+1      Cl-1
(Ca+2)         (Mg+2)           (HCO3-1)

  200                60               120              125           8           0

Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: jimbo44 on February 04, 2011, 02:57:12 AM
Water adjustments are tricky.  This isn't for you Lonnie but for others reading.  The most important thing is to know what your base water is.  If your using RO or Distilled that's easy, but if your using tap it can fluctuate depending on time of year.  For my Vienna (and all my water adjustments) I focus on the style and not always the City it came from.  By reading the BJCP guidelines we can start to see what you should be looking for in flavor.  When you calc. your recipe you'll get an estimated SRM and that will help you determine mash PH.  I only add Buffers and Acidity to my Mash and adjust the Chloride to Sulfates for my boil (that's just me).  I have found that the simplest way for me to break down water adjustments is this; PH of your mash, and Chloride to Sulfates of your wort.  Yes, Calcium and Mag. is important for yeast health and some flavors (calcium).  so we should atleast try and have 50ppm calcium.  I always shoot for a min of 75 ppm calcium.  Here's my last and favorite Vienna adjustments.  Calcium 106, Mag 22, Sodium 15, Chloride 41, Sulfates 77, CaCO3 153.  the SRM of that particular Vienna was 15, and the IBUs where around 27 of Hallertauer.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 03:07:03 AM
Water adjustments are tricky.  This isn't for you Lonnie but for others reading.  The most important thing is to know what your base water is.  If your using RO or Distilled that's easy, but if your using tap it can fluctuate depending on time of year.  For my Vienna (and all my water adjustments) I focus on the style and not always the City it came from.  By reading the BJCP guidelines we can start to see what you should be looking for in flavor.  When you calc. your recipe you'll get an estimated SRM and that will help you determine mash PH.  I only add Buffers and Acidity to my Mash and adjust the Chloride to Sulfates for my boil (that's just me).  I have found that the simplest way for me to break down water adjustments is this; PH of your mash, and Chloride to Sulfates of your wort.  Yes, Calcium and Mag. is important for yeast health and some flavors (calcium).  so we should atleast try and have 50ppm calcium.  I always shoot for a min of 75 ppm calcium.  Here's my last and favorite Vienna adjustments.  Calcium 106, Mag 22, Sodium 15, Chloride 41, Sulfates 77, CaCO3 153.  the SRM of that particular Vienna was 15, and the IBUs where around 27 of Hallertauer.  Hope this helps.

I'll give this a try in beer tools. I use only RO myself. For the love of gawd why don't someone simply make a stupid calculator that you input your volume (20 gal) and the profile you want to hit and kabam! Add 2 grams of that and 20 grams of this. I am so sick of playing this fill in the box thing and seeing what happens!

I would be curious to the grams of (whatever) you would add to 20 gals of RO water to reach these numbers. I would then input these into beer tools and pretend like I did it all myself! :)
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 04:28:59 AM
There has been a good discussion about Vienna water on HBD a while back. Here is one of the digests: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.crafts.brewing/2010-02/msg00128.html

The gist of it is that Vienna has been getting its water from various sources for quite a while now. One of these sources is snow melt from the Alps, which is lower alkalinity, and the other is local ground water, which has higher alkalinity. The problem is that even Herr Dreher, who started the Vienna Style, could have used the lower alkalinity water which comes from the Alps.

Lonnie, such a calculator is not a easy to write. But if you have Excel or OpenOffice you can solve an equation by minimizing the difference between the actual and desired water profile. It's not that hard to do, but a spread sheet has to be set up for that.

Although I think that this would be neat I haven't found the need for this since do only a few quick iterations on the salts and don't worry about hitting any profile that exactly.

Kai
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 04:44:48 AM
Thanks Kai... I always figured it would be hard to do. But man wouldn't that be nice. I too have always just tried to hit things as best as I can. Seems like nothing will ever line up perfectly. Beer Tools has the cool little buttons that turn green when everything is dead on. I believe it is impossible to turn every single button green no matter what style you try, so I usually just go as close as I can. The Vienna is really giving me fits though. Things are wildly different in that calculator.

I'll read the HBD. Thanks for posting it!
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 04:59:12 AM
to hit some of the water profiles more closely you may need additional salts like magnesium chloride and/or magnesium carbonate since each of these salts will add an anion and a cation. I.e. you can't add calcium w/o also adding sulfate, chloride or carbonate/bicarbonate.

Kai
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: mabrungard on February 04, 2011, 02:06:42 PM
I sure hate to see the propagation of misinformation and this is another example.  The Vienna profile published by Palmer is not even in the ball park!  The profile published by Daniels is not too bad with a caveat.

The water source for Vienna is the same today as it was about the time that Dreher created the Vienna style.  It is debatable if he used the new water source from the Alps or if he used the previous source.  The previous source was groundwater drawn from sand and gravel aquifers along the Danube River. 

The water quality today is exactly as it was when the aqueduct from the Alps was constructed.  The City did not perform any water treatment back then and they still don't.  That profile (taken directly from the City's website) is:

Ca   75 ppm
Mg   15 ppm
Na   10 ppm
SO4  60 ppm
Cl   15 ppm
HCO3 225 ppm

As those of you who know water recognize, this is an alkaline water with high temporary hardness.  It would work for dark beers (RA = 124), but would not produce the fine amber Vienna style. Many of you also know that one of the earliest water treatment methods available to brewers of yore was boiling to decarbonate the water and drop the temporary hardness.  The boiled water profile can be estimated fairly accurately.  The boiled profile is as follows:

Ca   27 ppm
Mg   15 ppm
Na   10 ppm
SO4  60 ppm
Cl   15 ppm
HCO3 80 ppm

The boiled profile now has a RA of about 45, which is pretty good for amber beers.  As you can see, the boiled profile does agree with the information presented by Daniels (yeah Ray!). 

I wouldn't worry too much about duplicating any water profile quoted for any location since water quality varies naturally and being within about 10 ppm of any of those ion concentrations is probably not going to be noticeable. 

There you go!  Brew your next Vienna with the boiled Vienna profile to produce great beer.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 04, 2011, 02:40:30 PM
I did a Vienna last year, and there were many profiles and opinions on the water.  None were conclusive.  Martin's post above really makes it more clear what I should do next time.  Thanks Lonnie, for starting a good thread.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2011, 02:44:31 PM
It's such a great thing to have the likes of Kai and Martin on board here at the AHA. When it comes to water we have the very best resources available in them. Thanks to Kai and Martin!  :)
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: blatz on February 04, 2011, 02:53:16 PM
awesome - not my next brew, but the one after is vienna - I'll be using the info here - thanks guys!

apologies lonnie, I'm hijacking here:


actually, maybe just adding a touch of gypsum is all I need:

Ca 23
Mg 4
HCO3 37
Na 21
Cl 70
SO4 36
pH 7.9

Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 02:56:41 PM
Thanks all for the info! Martin, the boiled Vienna profile was relatively easy to hit using RO water in my profile. Never actually trying to hit a specific city water, I always just try to do what is good for the beer. This makes since, but this dang Vienna was a fit! The only one that I was able to even get close on was the Daniels profile. As Kai said, without more specialized salts that I can't easily get at my LHBS, I was able to hit this one much closer with my normal stock of stuff.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 03:30:22 PM
So, this is what I am coming up with:

Ca     30 ppm
Mg    14 ppm
Na     20 ppm
SO4  57 ppm
Cl     14 ppm
HCO3 77 ppm

This is using 20 gals RO water with the following additions:

11g Epsom salt
5g Calcite
1g Kosher salt
4g Baking soda
1g Calcium Chloride

Is there any concern here? Is not the Ca a bit low for yeast health in this profile?
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: hoser on February 04, 2011, 03:35:04 PM
Martin,
How did you calculate the post boiled numbers for the Vienna water?  This has been a hot topic of converstation with our LHBC in Lincoln, Ne., recently.  We are considering preboiling some water off and sending it to ward labs, but if there is an easy (easy being a relative term ;D) way to calculate this I would love to know.  Thanks.  And I agree with the topic about Vienna.  Daniels and Fix's info seems to agree and I have been diluting my water with R/O water when I brew my vienna and the vienna flavor is fantastic!
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: blatz on February 04, 2011, 03:39:29 PM

Is there any concern here? Is not the Ca a bit low for yeast health in this profile?


agreed - shouldn't it be over 50ppm at least?
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: mabrungard on February 04, 2011, 04:06:07 PM
Yes, we know the calcium is lower than desired for yeast and break performance.  I didn't say that this is necessarily good for brewing, just what the original profile becomes after boiling and decanting.  Recall that Pilsen water is also notoriously low on calcium and it still produces good beer. 

That does not mean that we shouldn't improve this water with a little more calcium to bring it to a better performing 50 ppm minimum concentration.  But at least you now know what the Vienna profile probably looked like in the Dreher days with the technologic capabilities of the day.  I'd try and keep the Cl/SO4 ratio similar or possibly a little more to the chloride side when adding the calcium.

I'll start another thread later regarding how the boiled profile is calculated.  It shouldn't be buried in this thread.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 04:20:09 PM
We are considering preboiling some water off and sending it to ward labs, but if there is an easy (easy being a relative term ;D) way to calculate this I would love to know. 

I don’t think that there is a need to send this water to Ward Labs. Simply using a GH&KH test kit might be more economical. That’s what I did when I used slaked lime to precipitate temporary hardness.

Martin can comment on boiling the water, but in essence the process is very similar to adding slaked lime. I have some detailed information on this here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Alkalinity_reduction_with_slaked_lime
Including calculations, which might be a bit dense, though?

I actually prefer using slaked lime over boiling the water since it uses less energy and it may also require less effort given you have slaked lime at hand.

Kai
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: mabrungard on February 04, 2011, 04:35:30 PM
Kai is correct that Lime-Softening is very similar in its results, excepting that if you take the pH during lime softening up to about 11 you will also drop out some magnesium.  That is another possible advantage to lime softening.  I agree that it is a better way than boiling, but I actually don't know when the advent of lime softening was.  I'm pretty sure some of my water treatment text books have that information, but I couldn't find it now.  I'm not sure if Dreher or other brewers at that time would have had that knowledge.

Remember, either of these treatments can only remove the temporary hardness components and not the permanent hardness.  If the water has bicarbonate, its got temporary hardness.  The sulfate and chloride contributes to permanent hardness.

Oh, and I agree with Kai that using the aquarium test kits for GH and KH are perfect for assessing what goes on with either treatment.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: tomsawyer on February 04, 2011, 04:56:42 PM
The BJCP specifically says "moderately hard, carbonate rich water".  It does seem that 80ppm HCO3 fits this bill.

Also, the chloride and sulfate of the boiled water are both quite low from a flavor contribution perspective.  Given the soft malt and balanced bitterness I suppose this is no big deal, but does anyone use higher levels of both salts?  and do you try for a 1:1 ratio for a balanced flavor profile?

I only add Buffers and Acidity to my Mash and adjust the Chloride to Sulfates for my boil (that's just me).  I have found that the simplest way for me to break down water adjustments is this; PH of your mash, and Chloride to Sulfates of your wort.

I don't understand why you wouldn't kill two birds with one stone and add your CaCl2 and CaSO4 to the mash.  They both lower pH and keep you from having to add as much acid, then they're around as flavor components.

Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: mabrungard on February 04, 2011, 05:36:54 PM
The BJCP specifically says "moderately hard, carbonate rich water".  It does seem that 80ppm HCO3 fits this bill.


Lennie, you are right.  But, the raw water from Vienna is exactly that...moderately hard, carbonate rich water.  As I point out, brewers still had the capability to alter their water and they did.  The other point to consider is the raw Vienna profile could not produce a good amber colored beer, its far too alkaline.    This revised profile is most likely what the originators of the Vienna style had to work with.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 04, 2011, 05:45:52 PM
So, this is what I am coming up with:

Ca     30 ppm
Mg    14 ppm
Na     20 ppm
SO4  57 ppm
Cl     14 ppm
HCO3 77 ppm

This is using 20 gals RO water with the following additions:

11g Epsom salt
5g Calcite
1g Kosher salt
4g Baking soda
1g Calcium Chloride

Is there any concern here? Is not the Ca a bit low for yeast health in this profile?


So then, does my profile look acceptable for an amber colored beer? I will bump the Ca up a tad...

I should add, I am making up this water here in about 30 minutes! :)
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: hoser on February 04, 2011, 09:24:08 PM
Kai,
Thanks for the tips!  I am a faithful follower of your blog. I love your evidenced based brewing.  Allright, enough of the love fest ;D  I have actually performed your procedure for my local water and did send it off to Ward labs as well as my tap water and some R/O so I knew my actual water values.  I went back and looked at the results and it did work.  It took my Ca+ from 61 to 39ppm, HCO3 from 190 to 59, and CaCO3 from 161 to 156.  So, it made a difference in my bicarbonate.  I am sure I made some errors along the ways..  My chemistry is a little rusty from my pre-med days.  I do have a GH/KH test per your blog as well, so maybe I will do that test this weekend and match it against the slaked lime test I did earlier.

Martin,
I can't wait to see how you calculated the post boil numbers and how those stack up against my slaked lime experiment.

Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: thcipriani on February 06, 2011, 06:19:52 PM
Quote
For the love of gawd why don't someone simply make a stupid calculator that you input your volume (20 gal) and the profile you want to hit and kabam!

FWIW, Ken Schram's BreWater is exactly that. While it is a flawed calculator in many ways it is the perfect tool for finding the needed salt additions to hit your target profile. You plug in a profile, what salts you'd like to use, and hit cntrl-f then KABLAM.

Alternatively, You could use the 'solver' excel plugin with any of the current popular spreadsheets and have if find the best solution by changing only the cells you choose.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: tygo on February 06, 2011, 08:36:40 PM
Alternatively, You could use the 'solver' excel plugin with any of the current popular spreadsheets and have if find the best solution by changing only the cells you choose.

Hmm, I never thought of using solver.  I might have to play around with that.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: 1vertical on February 07, 2011, 03:45:48 PM
Lonnie,
I know this will be 20 20 hindsight b/c you have finished this water build.
But I wonder if you have used Palmers nomograph?  Once I learned how
to manipulate the thing, it does a LOT of the drain bamage for me.....
Sean pointed me to it at this location...
http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/ (http://nomograph.babbrewers.com/)

Thanks Sean
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: lonnie mac on February 07, 2011, 03:51:49 PM
Thanks for the help fellas... Yea, I have used Palmers nomograph as well.

I basically used the boiled Vienna profile, and bumped up the ca a bit. The brew went great! We will see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: 1vertical on February 07, 2011, 04:33:24 PM
If you get a negra modelo ringer, please let me know.  I got very close
IMO with an ale yeast believe it or not, colors were indistinguishable
....side by side taste test (blind) the groupo modelo was NOT the preferred beverage.

just sayin.
Title: Re: Vienna Lager water profile...
Post by: 1vertical on May 15, 2011, 08:04:56 PM
Ok time for that update Lonnie, What did the beer end up like???
I got my WhiteLabs 940 waiting for the time to make Mex Lager...soon soon....
was gonna make a Negra Modelo wanna be...