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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: oscarvan on February 04, 2011, 05:29:04 PM

Title: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 04, 2011, 05:29:04 PM
OK, I'm having a hard time getting all my thermometers on the same page. I'll have to invest in a REAL one and then calibrate the dial thermometers in the HLT and MLT. The spread is as much as 10º  :o Also, with the 70Q Coleman Extreme I am not getting much  of a temperature drop on infusion....

Using the consensus method I think the mash stabilized at 155, which is where I wanted it. But, there is the possibility that for a few minutes it was at, or near 170º Now I know the conversion process stops at that point, but is that because the enzymes can't function anymore, or does 170º actually kill them?

I guess I'll have the answer when I do my gravity readings on lautering, but in the meantime I would like to hear some input.... thanks.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 04, 2011, 05:45:20 PM
170F is enough to unfold the enzymes (can't function), but it does NOT happen immediately.  I would also expect it to be mostly reversible (doesn't kill them) at that temperature, especially after just a short period of time.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 05:47:03 PM
The denaturation of enzymes is a function of temperature and time. So being at 170 for a short amount of time would not have killed them, but depending on how long actually was at that temp the b-amylase, which is the main creator of fermentable sugars, may have taken quite a hit. The result might be less fermentable wort.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 04, 2011, 05:51:33 PM
Kai, do you have a source for the Tm of barley beta- and alpha-amylase?  It might be in one of my books, but google can't find it for me.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2011, 05:55:57 PM
I'll have to invest in a REAL one and then calibrate the dial thermometers in the HLT and MLT. The spread is as much as 10º  :o

Great idea!

I use a lab thermometer that is calibrated to NIST traceable standards and the great thing about is that they are fairly inexpensive. I think I paid less than $20 for mine.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 04, 2011, 05:56:39 PM
We're talking a few minutes here. Having the conflict I went with the hottest temp and stirred the mash lid off until it came down, but I may in fact be too cool now.

I REALLY need some decent thermometers. I can't control what I can't measure accurately....these $7 dial thermometers are toys.

Anyone have a source for accurate tools?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2011, 06:04:13 PM
Here ya go.

http://vwrlabshop.com/vwr-general-purpose-thermometers/p/0013362/

edit: corrected link
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2011, 06:08:54 PM
Kai, do you have a source for the Tm of barley beta- and alpha-amylase?  It might be in one of my books, but google can't find it for me.

About ten minutes at 70°C. http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/7/3709

bluesman, I don't think 5°F divisions are going to be good enough for mashing. I use one of these: http://www.arborsci.com/prod-Digital_Thermometer-61.aspx
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tom on February 04, 2011, 06:09:31 PM
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 04, 2011, 06:16:41 PM
Kai, do you have a source for the Tm of barley beta- and alpha-amylase?  It might be in one of my books, but google can't find it for me.

About ten minutes at 70°C. http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/7/3709
That might not be directly comparable.  Those aren't barley enzymes, they're from a thermophilic bacteria so we can expect different physical properties.  For example the favored pH range is different.  They're also looking at purified recombinant protein, which is not the same as mash conditions where other cellular constituents are present.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 04, 2011, 06:18:37 PM
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
That is true for some proteins, but certainly not for all. ;)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 06:24:03 PM
Even I didn’t bother looking at my own site :). Here are some graphs that I collected over time:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Starch_Conversion#Temperature_and_Time

It’s inherently difficult to put a time on this. Not only because we need to give a rate of denaturation instead of an actual time, but also because it depends on more factors than just temperature. Mash thickness for example is also one of them.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2011, 06:25:05 PM
bluesman, I don't think 5°F divisions are going to be good enough for mashing. I use one of these: http://www.arborsci.com/prod-Digital_Thermometer-61.aspx

Here's the link I actually meant to post for thermometers.  :-[

http://vwrlabshop.com/vwr-general-purpose-thermometers/p/0013362/
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2011, 06:33:55 PM
I use this one to calibrate my brewing thermometers.

http://vwrlabshop.com/vwr-lollipop-thermometers/p/0025608/
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 04, 2011, 06:41:10 PM
Even I didn’t bother looking at my own site :). Here are some graphs that I collected over time:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Starch_Conversion#Temperature_and_Time

It’s inherently difficult to put a time on this. Not only because we need to give a rate of denaturation instead of an actual time, but also because it depends on more factors than just temperature. Mash thickness for example is also one of them.

Kai

Thanks Kai.  Those activity graphs are great, what is the original source for the data?  Your website is really impressive, as always, there's tons of stuff on there. :)

What I'd really like to see though, is activity curves for enzymes held at 70C for x minutes then cooled to different temps.  It would give an indication of how rapidly it denatures and the reversibility of denaturation, that's what's important for oscarvan's question.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Hokerer on February 04, 2011, 06:45:39 PM
I use this one as my certified "master" thermometer, not bad for $6.50...

http://cynmar.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=09601951 (http://cynmar.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=09601951)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 04, 2011, 09:00:54 PM
Well....I hit my gravity dead on..... so I got sugars. What kind of sugars I don't know.... We'll see how it attenuates. As I said in my oriinal post, it may or may not have gotten to 170 depending on which thermometer is right.....I have a gut feeling we're going to be OK here.

Meanwhile I will order one of those lollipop thermometers and make calibration tables for the various thermometers.

The good news is that I hit all my volumes dead on today.

Learning is taking place. 8)

I appreciate all the help.

Oscar.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2011, 09:06:20 PM
Meanwhile I will order one of those lollipop thermometers and make calibration tables for the various thermometers.

I like to use the bimetal dial thermometers for brewing since they're so easy to adjust when you calibrate them.  Then you need to keep referring to a table.  And be sure to calibrate them in the mash temp range.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2011, 09:53:18 PM
Those activity graphs are great, what is the original source for the data? 

The PDF seems to be gone from the link at which I found this. I'll have to check if I have a copy at home.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on February 04, 2011, 10:22:01 PM
We're talking a few minutes here. Having the conflict I went with the hottest temp and stirred the mash lid off until it came down, but I may in fact be too cool now.

I REALLY need some decent thermometers. I can't control what I can't measure accurately....these $7 dial thermometers are toys.

Anyone have a source for accurate tools?

I'm extremely pleased with my Superfast Splashproof Thermapen (http://www.thermoworks.com/products/thermapen/thermapen_original.html) which is also NIST certified. A little pricey but it gives me reads in seconds.

Oscar if you keep a bit of ice handy, a handful can drop the mash a couple degrees in those panicky first moments.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 04, 2011, 10:37:06 PM
Those are great, Euge.  I'm trying to justify the price....hmmm, my birthday's in a couple weeks..... ;D
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 04, 2011, 10:38:19 PM
Quote
And be sure to calibrate them in the mash temp range.

Good idea!

Quote
Oscar if you keep a bit of ice handy, a handful can drop the mash a couple degrees in those panicky first moments.

Another good idea..... However, as I am getting my system dialed in I am figuring out that there is very little heat loss from HLT to MLT...... so instead of going with 10º I will go with 5º which gives me a greater margin of error on the 170º and gets me closer to the target.

A little better every time.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tom on February 04, 2011, 10:54:20 PM
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
That is true for some proteins, but certainly not for all. ;)
Thanks for correcting me. Learn something new every day.
Reviewing enzymes it appears they were first described in brewers yeast. Once again beer has saved the world!

But I would think that the brewing literature would know if beta- and alpha amylase denaturization is reversible or not.

Brew on
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tubercle on February 05, 2011, 12:04:10 AM
Once enzymes are denatured it is irreversible.
That is true for some proteins, but certainly not for all. ;)
Thanks for correcting me. Learn something new every day.
Reviewing enzymes it appears they were first described in brewers yeast. Once again beer has saved the world!

But I would think that the brewing literature would know if beta- and alpha amylase denaturization is reversible or not.

Brew on

 
Betcha can't un-fry an egg ;D
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 05, 2011, 07:19:00 AM
Betcha can't un-fry an egg ;D
;D

Yeah, some proteins don't denature reversibly, eggs are a good example.  And to your point tom, the brewing literature might have the information, you're right.  But they might not have done the required experiments either, I really don't know.  Clearly the proteins are inactivated at higher temps, and just as clearly they are irreversibly denatured at some point before the fermentation or mash temp profiles would have little meaning.  But where is that point where they are irreversibly denatured?  Is it just in the boil, or is it some point before that, and if before that, when?  Like Kai said, there is a time/temp component, but I haven't seen any data from the right kind of experiment to determine the answer.

Anyway, I'll do some digging and see what I can find.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tom on February 05, 2011, 03:00:04 PM
Why don't we just let Kai do it?     ;)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 05, 2011, 03:04:45 PM
Why don't we just let Kai do it?     ;)

+1  :)

I have always thought that 168F was the ideal temp to stop all enzymatic activity. Key word is "stop" but as others have also indicated I'm not sure if that's irreversible or not. Sounds like some experimentation will be in order to get to the bottom of all of this.  :-\
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 05, 2011, 04:20:54 PM
Just so people have a point of reference on this, here's a great chart from How to Brew...

(http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f79.gif)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tubercle on February 05, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150? Maybe stirring to help it get down over a reasonable period or just leaving the mash tun lid open. Wouldn't this be a better way to expose the grain to necessary temp (see Denny's chart) than holding at a set temps or ramping up through the temp ranges.

 Just drinking out loud....
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on February 05, 2011, 07:00:30 PM
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150?

I tried that once and it made a much less fermentable wort. One mash had rests at 144°F and 158°F, and the other started at 158°F and dropped to 144°F over the course of about an hour and a half. The control wort had about 65% RDF, and the other was about 45%. I don't have the notes with me.

Alpha amylase requires the beta amylase products to produce a reasonably fermentable wort. Doing it in reverse would be easier, but isn't really possible.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: jeffy on February 05, 2011, 10:45:44 PM
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150?

I tried that once and it made a much less fermentable wort. One mash had rests at 144°F and 158°F, and the other started at 158°F and dropped to 144°F over the course of about an hour and a half. The control wort had about 65% RDF, and the other was about 45%. I don't have the notes with me.

Alpha amylase requires the beta amylase products to produce a reasonably fermentable wort. Doing it in reverse would be easier, but isn't really possible.

This hasn't worked for me either.  If you could start a mash at 160 and leave it for a long time, until say, it dropped to 148, you'd have a very fermentable wort.  My experience with this has been the opposite.  Sweeter and higher final gravity.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 06, 2011, 03:15:56 AM
So, according to tschmidlin, and I have no reason to not believe what he says - I respect his knowledge, if some of these enzymes re-nature what would be the effect of starting hot, say 170f, and letting the mash cool down to 150?

I tried that once and it made a much less fermentable wort. One mash had rests at 144°F and 158°F, and the other started at 158°F and dropped to 144°F over the course of about an hour and a half. The control wort had about 65% RDF, and the other was about 45%. I don't have the notes with me.

Alpha amylase requires the beta amylase products to produce a reasonably fermentable wort. Doing it in reverse would be easier, but isn't really possible.

Sean, nice experiment. You should put that on your blog, then I can point brewers to it when the discussion comes up.

While a-amylase is technically able to produce fermetable sugars when it happens to split dextrins that are already short, it is not very good at doing that because its affinity (likelihood to react) to short dextrin chains is fairly low. We really rely on the b-amylase to give us fermentable wort and that enzyme quickly denatures above 65 C (150 F).

Here is a primer about enzymatic reactions that should answer some of the questions that came up: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Enzymes

The graphs are only for illustrative purposes. I created them from an ideal model of an enzymatic reaction.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 06, 2011, 03:38:22 AM

Here is a primer about enzymatic reactions that should answer some of the questions that came up: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Enzymes

The graphs are only for illustrative purposes. I created them from an ideal model of an enzymatic reaction.

Kai

Kai...you are brilliant.

I don't know how you can come up with all of this brewing science so effortlessly. I am truly inspired by your brilliance.

You need to compile all of the info on your website and write a book someday.  ;)

It doesn't make sense to me how enzyme activity increases exponentially when we are taught that it should cease at 168F range. How can you explain this phenomenon from practical standpoint?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 06, 2011, 04:04:21 AM
I don't know how you can come up with all of this brewing science so effortlessly. I am truly inspired by your brilliance.

This is actually a fairly old article and I'm reaping the benefits of being able to point to it w/o having to type so much ;). When I started reading up on enzymes I found so much detail that is generally overlooked by brewers but which would be at least interesting to the more technically inclined brewers.

Quote
It doesn't make sense to me how enzyme activity increases exponentially when we are taught that it should cease at 168F range. How can you explain this phenomenon from practical standpoint?

The temperature section goes into this detail as well. While the speed of the enzymatic reaction increases with time, the rate at which the enzymes get denatured also increases. High temps mean quicker reactions but also less enzymes. At some temperature the rate of enzyme denaturation is more than what is gained from the increase in reaction speed. This will be a temperature above the temperature optimum for this enzyme. And to make things even more complicated, the temperature optima for enzymes also depend on the length of time allowed for the reaction.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 06, 2011, 08:31:11 AM
Why don't we just let Kai do it?     ;)
That would be convenient :)

I tried that once and it made a much less fermentable wort. One mash had rests at 144°F and 158°F, and the other started at 158°F and dropped to 144°F over the course of about an hour and a half. The control wort had about 65% RDF, and the other was about 45%. I don't have the notes with me.

Alpha amylase requires the beta amylase products to produce a reasonably fermentable wort. Doing it in reverse would be easier, but isn't really possible.
This is in line with what I've heard from people who have tried it, that the initial temperature of the mash has more of an affect on the final fermentabilty of the wort, so even starting at 155F and letting it drop will yield a less fermentable wort than doing it from low to high.  For your experiment, how long was the 144F rest, and how long was the 158F rest, and how long was the mash overall?  And for the reverse, how long was it at 144F?

Anyway, the beta amylase clips off maltose and the alpha amylase is random.  The alpha gives more ends for the beta to clip, but the beta is the one more active at lower temps.

So why doesn't it work going from high to low?  Is the beta reversibly denatured at a temp as low as 155F?  Does a long alpha rest leave a bunch of short chains that are long enough to be unfermentable, but too short for the beta to properly bind and act on? Or is the real trick of the lower fermentation temperature that limit dextrinase is still active at 148F, and that is producing the ends for the beta amylase to act on?  I don't know :)

I haven't been able to find anything but it would be good to know exactly what is going on, I'm curious.  The answers might be in here.  Kai, I don't suppose you have this book?
http://www.amazon.de/Abriss-Bierbrauerei-Ludwig-Narzi%C3%9F/dp/3527310355
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 06, 2011, 03:13:46 PM
I haven't been able to find anything but it would be good to know exactly what is going on, I'm curious.  The answers might be in here.  Kai, I don't suppose you have this book?
http://www.amazon.de/Abriss-Bierbrauerei-Ludwig-Narzi%C3%9F/dp/3527310355

This book has some info, but not as much as you can find in Kunze, Briggs or Narziss/Back's other book (Technologie der Wuerzebereitung).

One important aspect, that we brewers tend to forget, is that a-amylase is also active when the b-amylase is active. So once the starch gelatenizes and there are lots of starch chains to break a-amylase will randomly clip them and provide more substrate (chain ends) to b-amylase.

In the most idealized form the amount of fermentable sugars produced depends on the "time" that b-amylase is active. When I say "time" I actually mean the area (integral) under the time-activity curve. This time can be controlled by temperature, which we do in single infusion mashing, or by the length of the maltose rest, which is done in the Hochkurz mash. Again, this is very much idealized.

If you want to have highly fermentable wort you need to keep b-amylase and possibly also the limit dextrinase active as long as possible while giving it enough dextrins to work on. In brewing this means you need to mash at a low temperature but high enough get the starches gelatenized.

One way around this is to do a decoction mash or like a decoction mash. Pull the liquid out of the mash, raise the temp to 160-170 F and let the mash convert, Then return this back to the liquid to reach a temp of 60F. Now the b-amylase and limit dextrinase have lots of dextrins to work on and they'll survive much longer at this lower temp. A rest temp that would not have been practical with normal mashing since at this tempt the starch hasn't gelatenized yet.  But this is only a technique for ultra fermentable wort.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on February 06, 2011, 05:34:29 PM
Sean, nice experiment. You should put that on your blog, then I can point brewers to it when the discussion comes up.

Thanks Kai. I thought I had written it up, but apparently not. And now I can't find my notes. :-\

For your experiment, how long was the 144F rest, and how long was the 158F rest, and how long was the mash overall?  And for the reverse, how long was it at 144F?

They were both 90 minute mashes. The traditional schedule would have been roughly 40 min at each temperature. The test mash dropped continuously over that time. I don't think I even tracked temperature vs. time, though. Assuming it was roughly linear, it would have spent about 30 min below 149°F.

Clearly I'll have to re-do this experiment. That could be a good project to keep me occupied between commercials tonight. ;)

What temperatures would be best? Last time I chose 62/70°C for no particular reason. Would going to 60/70°C be expected to yield a more fermentable wort? Or even higher for the alpha rest?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 06, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
With 60 c you are getting rather close to or below the gelatinization temperature. I'd go with 63 C instead.

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on February 06, 2011, 10:15:05 PM
Ah, good point. For some reason I was thinking the gelatinization temperature was lower.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: Kaiser on February 06, 2011, 11:44:35 PM
It also depends on the batch of malt that you are using. But 63 C is a good temp. 

Kai
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 07, 2011, 12:55:57 AM
Look what I started...... :o
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: dbeechum on February 07, 2011, 07:31:31 AM
Look what I started...... :o

Ask a simple question on a homebrew forum with uncertain parameters and you can stand bakc.

I've often been fond of saying you could ask 5 homebrewers how to do something, end up with 7 ways to do it, 6 of which are correct.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on February 07, 2011, 03:14:38 PM
That's a pretty generous ratio, Drew. ;)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 07, 2011, 11:45:45 PM
I haven't been able to find anything but it would be good to know exactly what is going on, I'm curious.  The answers might be in here.  Kai, I don't suppose you have this book?
http://www.amazon.de/Abriss-Bierbrauerei-Ludwig-Narzi%C3%9F/dp/3527310355

This book has some info, but not as much as you can find in Kunze, Briggs or Narziss/Back's other book (Technologie der Wuerzebereitung).
Thanks Kai, I don't think I'll be getting that book any time soon. :) It's pricey, though I can ask the University library to get me a copy, but then there is the problem that my German isn't all that great . . .
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 01:06:18 AM
OK, as the OP I will have the unmedicated audacity to barge back in here wile the elders are speaking and report that I have one healthy fermentation going........ Still farting away.... When it slows down I will get a sg reading.... I feel good about this.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on February 08, 2011, 07:17:21 AM
So temp drift (downwards) over a 60-90 minute mash has very little effect if you hit you target above 150 or so? And that it is probably worse to overshoot than undershoot from a fermentabilty standpoint? Just to condense it all... And it's something that's worried me for a long time.

Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: jeffy on February 08, 2011, 12:30:07 PM
I'm here to testify that this is indeed true.  I was brewing away from home at one of those Learn to Homebrew events and miscalculated the strike temperature way too high.  By the time I corrected the mash temp down to the mid 150's I'm afraid I'd destroyed all of the beta enzymes and most of the alphas.  I got really bad efficiency on that batch and the beer stopped fermenting altogether at 1.030 from an original gravity of 1.080.  I decided to finish the fermentation several months later by adding brett to it.
My motto: never throw away a beer
Someone else's motto (from HBD): the more I know about beer the more I know I need to know more about beer.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 09, 2011, 12:22:44 PM
Day 5....... still bubbling although slowing down, right on cue. Still optimistic.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 10, 2011, 06:45:58 PM
OK the first of two buckets is done with primary..... 1010....right where it needs to be. Flavor appears good so far, we'll see where it ends up when it conditions.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 11, 2011, 12:24:36 PM
12 hours later.....farting like crazy.... 8) Wait, that's yesterday's batch...ignore.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 11, 2011, 05:39:16 PM
OK, the verdict is in......

Just kegged and force carbonated one bucket as I am to deliver home brew at a "men in the woods with Land Rovers" weekend.

It's a damn fine beer if I may say so myself..... It is NOT the beer it usually is. Good color, body, mouth feel.... but I lost that little hoppy note.

Now, two things happened. Based on the fact that every recipe in "Beer Captured" does this, I reduced the bittering hops by 25% in the extract to all grain conversion, I may reverse that decision.

But, and this is the real question, since this mash was "hot", is it possible that there are more sugars in the result, negating some of the hops?

For the record, here's the recipe

10 pounds two row pale malt
1/2 pound Briess Crystal 20º
1/2 pound Carapils 20º

.75 (1 in the extract) oz Simcoe 60
1 oz Cascadian 10
1oz Cascadian  2

Wyeast 1056
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 11, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
Ah, "Beer Captured"....there's your problem!
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 11, 2011, 05:53:15 PM
But, and this is the real question, since this mash was "hot", is it possible that there are more sugars in the result, negating some of the hops?
You said the OG was dead on and the FG was right where it needs to be - I don't think you have more sugars, and don't think it affected the hops.  I'm not sure what caused the change, I doubt it was your mash.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on February 11, 2011, 06:02:22 PM
Oscar is the loss of the "hoppy note" from the extract to the grain version? Or grain to grain? And I remember your water is fairly pristine. Do you add salts to the boil or mash?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: bluesman on February 11, 2011, 06:17:51 PM
Oscar...I calculate roughly 40 IBU's. That hop schedule should lend some percieved bitterness and flavor.

Do you think you added the correct amount of hops?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: maxieboy on February 11, 2011, 06:19:13 PM
Ah, "Beer Captured"....there's your problem!

Do tell. I do a couple recipes from it and they're good. What's the beef?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on February 11, 2011, 06:24:20 PM
I'm wondering why the reduction? Was the extract version a full boil or a top-up?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 11, 2011, 07:32:31 PM
The extract version was a top up.

I did the Kölsch out of "Beer Captured" and love it....

The loss of the hoppy note is from extract to grain.

The computers say 36 IBU. Yes I weighed the hops out right, using a digital scale calibrated in pounds ounces 0.00

Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on February 11, 2011, 07:40:06 PM
So what about the water? The extract already had minerals in it, so if you haven't adjusted your nearly pure water it might be off flavor-wise. Or if you have adjusted it might not be exactly the same.

Does this seem like it applies oscar?


Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on February 11, 2011, 08:11:18 PM
Did not touch the water...... Hmmmmmmmm.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: denny on February 11, 2011, 09:44:17 PM
Ah, "Beer Captured"....there's your problem!

Do tell. I do a couple recipes from it and they're good. What's the beef?

My experience, and that of a lot of others I've talked to, is that's one of the worst books out there.  Glad you've had good luck with it.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: maxieboy on February 11, 2011, 10:00:30 PM
Cool. I'll limit it to the two then. Their fermentation temp recommendations did seem a little odd...
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: gordonstrong on March 04, 2011, 06:01:45 AM
OK, this is going to sound pedantic, but it's intended to be helpful in an educational sense.  I'm not picking on the OP.

You can't kill enzymes because they aren't alive.  Denature is the correct term for permanently destroying their function.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: punatic on March 04, 2011, 06:11:32 AM
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!   ;)

If you drink denatured enzymes, won't you go blind?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: dak0415 on March 04, 2011, 01:48:56 PM
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!   ;)

If you drink denatured enzymes, won't you go blind?
No, but you run the risk of denaturing the BUZZ.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: punatic on March 04, 2011, 04:35:28 PM
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!   ;)

If you drink denatured enzymes, won't you go blind?
No, but you run the risk of denaturing the BUZZ.

If that were to happen, it would be a synthetic BUZZ?
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on March 27, 2011, 08:38:48 PM
I redid the mashes several weeks ago, but just now got around to writing up the results: http://seanterrill.com/2011/03/27/reverse-mashing/

Out of necessity, the rests for these mashes were very short (15 min), so the results may not be directly applicable to a more typical mash schedule. The biggest take-away at this point could be just how fermentable a wort can be produced using a short mash. I'll be following up with some longer rest times once it's warmer in my kitchen.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on March 30, 2011, 01:57:26 AM
OK, this is going to sound pedantic, but it's intended to be helpful in an educational sense.  I'm not picking on the OP.

You can't kill enzymes because they aren't alive.  Denature is the correct term for permanently destroying their function.


I appreciate that; one needs to know the correct terminology. I tend to color the language to maintain levity. Maybe doing it to the title of the thread was a bit much. As we are all aware intonation does not convey in this medium.
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: euge on March 30, 2011, 05:35:51 AM
As we are all aware intonation does not convey in this medium.

That is what smiley's are for :) ;) :D ;D

Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: oscarvan on March 30, 2011, 11:38:08 PM
As we are all aware intonation does not convey in this medium.

That is what smiley's are for :) ;) :D ;D



Very funny mister....  ;)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: punatic on March 31, 2011, 12:26:16 AM
As we are all aware intonation does not convey in this medium.

That is what smiley's are for :) ;) :D ;D



Very funny mister....  ;)

       (http://www.websmileys.com/sm/drink/trink39.gif)
Title: Re: Killing enzymes?
Post by: a10t2 on October 15, 2011, 10:34:47 PM
I'll be following up with some longer rest times once it's warmer in my kitchen.

I finally got around to this: http://seanterrill.com/2011/10/15/reverse-mashing-2/

The biggest surprise for me was that even tripling the length of the mash resulted in a very modest (~2%) increase in attenuation.