Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: oscarvan on February 06, 2011, 12:41:43 PM

Title: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 06, 2011, 12:41:43 PM
Anyone of you beer gods have a direct line to the super god? I want to ask him some questions about the Glüten free business. Could you pm me please? Thanks.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: bluesman on February 06, 2011, 03:35:08 PM
Anyone of you beer gods have a direct line to the super god? I want to ask him some questions about the Glüten free business. Could you pm me please? Thanks.

I know he attends the NHC. If you're planning to attend you could meet him there. Of course that's not until June. He has posted here a few times but hasn't been on in a good while now. I think he is on this blogspot now and again. http://www.examiner.com/beer-in-national/charlie-papazian

...and I can't forget to include his blog on craftbeer.com

http://www.craftbeer.com/pages/stories/charlies-blog
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: rabid_dingo on February 06, 2011, 04:20:13 PM
He's on Facebook as himself too.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: alikocho on February 06, 2011, 04:20:25 PM
He's on Facebook and Twitter...
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: charliepapazian on February 07, 2011, 09:56:01 PM
I'm here. and now following this topic.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: jamminbrew on February 07, 2011, 10:00:25 PM
I'm here. and now following this topic.
Hooray!
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: morticaixavier on February 07, 2011, 11:09:28 PM
okay! does malted quinoa have enough Diastatic power to convert itself? how about other added non-gluten grains?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: euge on February 07, 2011, 11:38:15 PM
I'm here. and now following this topic.

Woohoo! Surely the mods can do better than 1st kit!
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: charliepapazian on February 07, 2011, 11:53:44 PM
Quinoa diastatic power.  I'm not certain, but believe it is pretty low at best.  Malting quinoa on its own is messy.  Better to add barley malt to help.  Or use enzymes.  I think.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2011, 11:59:12 PM
I'm here. and now following this topic.

Woohoo! Surely the mods can do better than 1st kit!

Yeah, I agree, that needs to be changed to Brewing Buddha or something! But that's an Admin's job, I don't know how to do anything like that.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 12:33:33 AM
Whoa, a lightning bolt from the sky.....

Let me thank you for writing the book that gave me the right attitude..... DWHAHB is etched in gold around here.  ;D

Pleasantries over..... ;)

My friend has been recently diagnosed as a celiac, and yes I have read all the disclaimers, and yes I know that celiacs are all different and some can tolerate some gluten, and some go toxic when someone bakes a loaf of bread within a 5 miles radius and yes, you are not a doctor nor are you guaranteeing anything to be etc. etc.....

That said.....

He is willing to be a guinea pig. So, in the last issue of Zymurgy you have that recipe that caught my eye. I understand the concept. Not gluten free, but gluten removed. The clarity ferm drops out the proteins, including the ones that kill the celiacs.

Now the question (yes I know, finally)

The recipe, aside from the fact that it has no other grains than barley, really has no impact on the concept, right? I mean I can take my house APA (some 2 row, some crystal malt and some carapils, with simcoe and cascade, wye 1056) and as long as I am using the clarity ferm according to the instructions the result may/should be a negative presence with a gluten test, am I correct?

And I did order the EZ Gluten test.....

Plan is to do a 10 gallon batch of a beer I am familiar with, then do one bucket "normal" and one bucket  with the clarity ferm. Run the test on both, and, put them side by side for taste comparison..... Sounds like a plan?

Thanks...

(And thank you, you know who you are, for getting the man's attention.....8) )
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: jaybeerman on February 08, 2011, 12:38:29 AM
 :o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 12:51:35 AM
:o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)

Just trying to help out a fellow man..... maybe that helps. There's a lot of work to be done here. I hope Charlie may be on to something that would make a lot of people's life a little bit more bearable. Personally I don't have celiac, but I do have something that precludes me from enjoying certain foods and beverages, like coffee, and orange juice..... :o :o :o, so I can sympathize. (Ironically, beer is on my shid list but I am tolerating it, very well    ???..... there is some occasional justice, and mercy..... 8) )
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: maxieboy on February 08, 2011, 01:20:46 AM
:o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)

Yeah, oscar from pennsylvania! That was you in Ask the Experts(Chris White and JZ), right?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 01:28:40 AM
:o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)

Yeah, oscar from pennsylvania! That was you in Ask the Experts(Chris White and JZ), right?

Uh, um, eh, uh yeah....... that could would probably was me...... ::)
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: bluesman on February 08, 2011, 01:44:55 AM
:o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)

Yeah, oscar from pennsylvania! That was you in Ask the Experts(Chris White and JZ), right?

Uh, um, eh, uh yeah....... that could would probably was me...... ::)

Oscar...you are a man of character if I must say so myself.  ;)
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 04:57:37 AM
:o :o

wow oscarvan speaks and the gods answer back.  oscarvan, is your face glowing?  :)

Yeah, oscar from pennsylvania! That was you in Ask the Experts(Chris White and JZ), right?

Uh, um, eh, uh yeah....... that could would probably was me...... ::)

Oscar...you are a man of character if I must say so myself.  ;)

Now you have me blushing......
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: denny on February 08, 2011, 04:38:41 PM
I'm here. and now following this topic.

Woohoo! Surely the mods can do better than 1st kit!

Yeah, I agree, that needs to be changed to Brewing Buddha or something! But that's an Admin's job, I don't know how to do anything like that.

I looked and I couldn't see how to do it.  But I bet Drew can figure it out.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: denny on February 08, 2011, 04:40:24 PM

Oscar...you are a man of character if I must say so myself.  ;)

Now you have me blushing......

I think Ron meant to say "Oscar, you are a character"....;)
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: bluesman on February 08, 2011, 05:20:11 PM

Oscar...you are a man of character if I must say so myself.  ;)

Now you have me blushing......

I think Ron meant to say "Oscar, you are a character"....;)

 :D  ;D
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: charliepapazian on February 08, 2011, 06:26:20 PM
re: The recipe, aside from the fact that it has no other grains than barley, really has no impact on the concept, right? I mean I can take my house APA (some 2 row, some crystal malt and some carapils, with simcoe and cascade, wye 1056) and as long as I am using the clarity ferm according to the instructions the result may/should be a negative presence with a gluten test, am I correct?

Yes you are correct.  I've heard from others that their friends had favorably no reactions - at least from empirical observations.  No real tests done...

And you're right I'm not a doctor nor giving any medical advice.  Just observations.

CP
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 06:32:22 PM
Cool, thanks. As said I have ordered the EZ Gluten test, and I will brew a 10G batch, one with and one without the Clarity Ferm then run the tests....we shall see.....
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: Mark G on February 08, 2011, 06:44:29 PM
I'm looking forward to hearing the results, not just on the gluten levels, but also on any flavor impact.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: charliepapazian on February 08, 2011, 06:54:54 PM
I've not encountered ANY flavor impact, nor any impact on great foam stabililty.  The beer should have no or minimal chill haze, 'cause those gluten proteins are the same one's that impart chill haze.   If you read my article thoroughly, the only negative to some folks might be that the enzyme is gmo.  Reread the story for the details. 
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: Mark G on February 08, 2011, 07:14:47 PM
That's great to hear. I will pull that Zymurgy back out and reread the story, then get my hands on some Clarity-Ferm.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on February 08, 2011, 10:01:15 PM
My LHBS ordered it from White Labs....
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: Mark G on February 08, 2011, 10:56:21 PM
Northern Brewer and Brewmasters Warehouse also carry it, for anyone else interested.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: corkybstewart on August 17, 2011, 09:45:14 PM
Cool, thanks. As said I have ordered the EZ Gluten test, and I will brew a 10G batch, one with and one without the Clarity Ferm then run the tests....we shall see.....
bumping a very old thread here, but Oscar, how did it turn out.  I'm about to brew a GF beer for a beer lover and she's not too crazy about the commercial GF beers.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: beersk on August 18, 2011, 03:03:15 PM
Cool, thanks. As said I have ordered the EZ Gluten test, and I will brew a 10G batch, one with and one without the Clarity Ferm then run the tests....we shall see.....
bumping a very old thread here, but Oscar, how did it turn out.  I'm about to brew a GF beer for a beer lover and she's not too crazy about the commercial GF beers.
Good call, I'm interested to know the results as well.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: gimmeales on August 18, 2011, 03:29:02 PM
I'll also be trying some Clarity Ferm in my next beer (all barley) for some gluten-intolerant and celiac friends of mine.

From my own research, you can stamp a 'gluten-free' label in the US if the gluten content is < 20ppm - producing a beer that is even 10ppm (much less, 5ppm like Charlie did) seems that it could let all but the most sensitive enjoy a quality, all-barley beer.  Another interesting test would be to also fine the beer with gelatin post-fermentation, so getting the benefit of the CF in addition to any other clarification gelatin may provide.  One note - beers brewed with Wheat or Rye are probably still not going to get to the 'gluten free' threshold, however.

One note I found on the homebrewchatter forums, was that a guy brewed an Oatmeal Stout with Clarity-Ferm and said the body was noticeably less-full than he expected.  Seems like (and stands to reason), that CF is not discriminant in what proteins it pulls out of the beer, which would even include body-boosting malts and adjuncts.  I'm curious to hear other's experiences over time with this!

another question just popped into my head:  does CF affect yeast in anyway?  Curious if harvesting yeast for future batches after treated with CF would in anyway be negatively affected?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on August 19, 2011, 01:31:37 PM
Unfortunately both batches did not turn out as expected. One tested undecided, one tested low positive. My friend offered to guinea pig on the undecided one and although he had a really good time doing that, he said he paid for it the next day. Possibly his tolerance is very low, most likely there were just too many gluten ppm.

As the tests are $25 a pair and this would get way expensive if continued too far, I have decided to stop the experiment for now. Not sure what, if anything, in my procedures went wrong. Looking for more data.

In the meantime I did discover a lively discussion on the subject here:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/

It appears folks are making great progress developing decent beers that are made with gluten free ingredients. As soon as I find some time I will work on that angle.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: tschmidlin on August 19, 2011, 08:09:14 PM
Oscar, have you considered subbing gluten free grains for some of the barley, then using the clarity ferm to further reduce the gluten content?  The first batch was all malt, right?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: roguenationpatriot on August 21, 2011, 06:05:38 PM
re: The recipe, aside from the fact that it has no other grains than barley, really has no impact on the concept, right? I mean I can take my house APA (some 2 row, some crystal malt and some carapils, with simcoe and cascade, wye 1056) and as long as I am using the clarity ferm according to the instructions the result may/should be a negative presence with a gluten test, am I correct?

Yes you are correct.  I've heard from others that their friends had favorably no reactions - at least from empirical observations.  No real tests done...

And you're right I'm not a doctor nor giving any medical advice.  Just observations.

CP

One of my co-worker just found out she had to go gluten-free. Is there a certain amount that is harmless for people with a gluten intolerance.  What levels do the gluten tests measure for?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: morticaixavier on August 22, 2011, 02:37:34 PM
re: The recipe, aside from the fact that it has no other grains than barley, really has no impact on the concept, right? I mean I can take my house APA (some 2 row, some crystal malt and some carapils, with simcoe and cascade, wye 1056) and as long as I am using the clarity ferm according to the instructions the result may/should be a negative presence with a gluten test, am I correct?

Yes you are correct.  I've heard from others that their friends had favorably no reactions - at least from empirical observations.  No real tests done...

And you're right I'm not a doctor nor giving any medical advice.  Just observations.

CP

One of my co-worker just found out she had to go gluten-free. Is there a certain amount that is harmless for people with a gluten intolerance.  What levels do the gluten tests measure for?

As I understand it there are levels of intollerance. some people can't even deal with malt vinegar others just get a little uncomfortable if they eat wheat bread.

Oscar,

I read  awhile back about malting quinoa. It has very high diastatic power (higher than barley if I am remembering correctly) and can be nice as a brewing grain. Havn't tried it but it sounds interesting. I think if you are going to make a non-barley beer it is important to remember, as with good vegetarian cooking, to think of it as a different creature than barley beer and try to create things that highlight the nature of the 'alternate' ingredient.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: roguenationpatriot on August 22, 2011, 08:01:34 PM
I know I've tasted some sorgum based beers that weren't bad.  It would definately make for an interesting project. Would it be basically the same basic brewing process as far as tempatures and boiling times are concerned?
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: morticaixavier on August 22, 2011, 08:11:11 PM
I know I've tasted some sorgum based beers that weren't bad.  It would definately make for an interesting project. Would it be basically the same basic brewing process as far as tempatures and boiling times are concerned?

yup
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: roguenationpatriot on August 24, 2011, 05:06:33 AM
I'll have to add one to the project list.
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: oscarvan on August 27, 2011, 11:37:11 PM
Oscar, have you considered subbing gluten free grains for some of the barley, then using the clarity ferm to further reduce the gluten content?  The first batch was all malt, right?

Sorry for the delayed response. Yes, it was all malt. A hybrid approach may be in order.....
Title: Re: Charlie P.
Post by: tschmidlin on August 28, 2011, 07:27:51 AM
Oscar, have you considered subbing gluten free grains for some of the barley, then using the clarity ferm to further reduce the gluten content?  The first batch was all malt, right?

Sorry for the delayed response. Yes, it was all malt. A hybrid approach may be in order.....
No worries, we get busy.  But it might cut down the gluten, it's worth a try.