Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: roguejim on February 09, 2011, 07:41:51 PM

Title: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: roguejim on February 09, 2011, 07:41:51 PM
Will one packet be enough to ferment out a 5.5gal batch of 1.063 ale, if the packet is less than 6 months old?  Just curious.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bonjour on February 09, 2011, 07:43:35 PM
Volume is missing, assumeing a 5 gal batch you should be fine. 
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bluesman on February 09, 2011, 07:46:02 PM
Volume is missing, assumeing a 5 gal batch you should be fine. 

+1

I have used year old S05 in medium strength ales with success. You should be fine.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: hamiltont on February 09, 2011, 07:49:53 PM
Be sure to rehydrate it for maximum performance.  Cheers!!!
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: euge on February 09, 2011, 07:55:29 PM
Now see... If I had said you'll be fine the dialogue would have been "starter". ;)

Rehydrate.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: roguejim on February 09, 2011, 07:57:20 PM
Be sure to rehydrate it for maximum performance.  Cheers!!!

How exactly does rehydrating dry yeast maximize its performance?  I've always understood rehydrating dry yeast to be largely unnecessary.  I'm talking about yeast that you know has normal viability.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: a10t2 on February 09, 2011, 08:18:42 PM
Per Clayton Cone at Lallemand, yeast can't exhibit selective permeability of the cell wall during rehydration. So when rehydrating in wort, all of the compounds in the wort will enter the cells. That kills some (possibly as many as half) of them outright, and can result in reduced health in the survivors.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bonjour on February 09, 2011, 08:20:11 PM
Without rehydrating approximately 1/2 the yeast will die as they rehydrate, at least that's the  ROT number as I understand it.
IMHO you are on the borderline between needing to rehydrate or not.  Otherwise I would have mentioned it.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: hamiltont on February 09, 2011, 08:28:25 PM
Per Clayton Cone at Lallemand, yeast can't exhibit selective permeability of the cell wall during rehydration. So when rehydrating in wort, all of the compounds in the wort will enter the cells. That kills some (possibly as many as half) of them outright, and can result in reduced health in the survivors.

Additional reading regarding what Dr. Clayton Cone has said about rehydration:

Quote:
Let me give you some facts regarding rehydration and you can decide for
yourself where you want to compromise.
Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature. All of
them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F. The dried
yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly
seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is
reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F
the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell.
The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 – 105 F, there is
100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60%
dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present.
The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is
ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used.
Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 – 1.0% yeast
extract

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast
cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic
materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast
normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right
in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is
properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of
the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or
must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is
not immediatly add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the
rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort.
Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite
mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to
produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by
adding, in encrements, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated
yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that
drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm
water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial
water intering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they
ignore all the above? I believe that it is just a numbers game. Each gram
of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells. If you
slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the
rich wort. If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per
gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered
rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data
indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep
in mind is that Active Dry Yeast is dormant or inactive and not inert, so
keep refrigerated at all times. Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse
that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is
stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated.

The above overview of rehydration should tell you that there is a very best
way to rehydrate. It should also tell you where you are safe in adapting
the rehydration procedure to fit your clients.

Clayton Cone.
End Quote
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: denny on February 09, 2011, 08:29:24 PM
I pitch without rehydration in wort up to the mid-upper 70s OG.  I've never had any problems.  Maybe rehydration would be better, but I can't imagine why based on experience.  My guess is that there are so many cells it really doesn't matter if I kill some off.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bonjour on February 09, 2011, 08:58:36 PM
I pitch without rehydration in wort up to the mid-upper 70s OG.  I've never had any problems.  Maybe rehydration would be better, but I can't imagine why based on experience.  My guess is that there are so many cells it really doesn't matter if I kill some off.
Actually 1.080 is my cut off,  EVERYTHING over that get rehydrated, very little under.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bluesman on February 09, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
I pitch without rehydration in wort up to the mid-upper 70s OG.  I've never had any problems.  Maybe rehydration would be better, but I can't imagine why based on experience.  My guess is that there are so many cells it really doesn't matter if I kill some off.
Actually 1.080 is my cut off,  EVERYTHING over that get rehydrated, very little under.

I recently made a 1.112 Barleywine that was dry pitched and it came out of the fermenter tasting like really fine.

Fred...after hearing you say your cut off was 1.080 I was thinking "oh s***" but it tasted great. It's in the secondary conditioning for a few months right now.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bonjour on February 09, 2011, 09:36:37 PM
At 1.112 I rehydrate 2 packs, But you noticed how adaptable those little critters are.

<1.080 1 pack sprinkled
1.080+ 1 pack rehydrated
1.100+ 2 packs rehydrated
1.120+ 3 packs rehydrated.

More important on big beers is the fermentation temp.

Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: majorvices on February 09, 2011, 10:12:27 PM
I started rehydrating, but only because it makes me feel better. Have to agree with Denny that I really haven't seen any "real world" difference.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: richardt on February 09, 2011, 10:35:00 PM
Thanks for posting Clayton Cone's comments.  Nice to have info from the experts--the reasoning seems sound.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: denny on February 09, 2011, 10:37:23 PM
Thanks for posting Clayton Cone's comments.  Nice to have info from the experts--the reasoning seems sound.

I agree that the reasoning is sound.  I just can't agree that it makes much difference.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: tom on February 10, 2011, 01:22:41 AM
I am sure that Denny wouldn't make a statement of fact without a rigourous triangle test!   ;)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bluesman on February 10, 2011, 01:31:30 AM
At 1.112 I rehydrate 2 packs, But you noticed how adaptable those little critters are.

<1.080 1 pack sprinkled
1.080+ 1 pack rehydrated
1.100+ 2 packs rehydrated
1.120+ 3 packs rehydrated.

More important on big beers is the fermentation temp.



Yes...I used 2 packs in the 1.112 BW.

I just sprinkled it on and the next morning it was off to the races.

The aroma out of the airlock on the second day was mesmerizing.  :)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: majorvices on February 10, 2011, 01:05:56 PM
I am sure that Denny wouldn't make a statement of fact without a rigourous triangle test!   ;)

Two or three years ago I actually did do a couple batches side by side and have to admit the rehydrated one took off faster. Can't say I could really tell a difference in the finished beer though.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: jeffy on February 10, 2011, 01:58:11 PM
I can't find it right now, but the instructions on the Lallemand website say to use water at 70F.  I guess that's wrong.  I'll try the higher temp next time.  Thanks for that Clayton Cone info.  It really helps clarify things.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: beersk on February 10, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
I typically use 1 pack, sprinkled in, up to 1.060.  And 2 packs sprinkled in 1.060 and up.  I don't typically brew super high gravity beers, so I usually only need 2 packs at the most, and the beers turn out fine.  But maybe I'm being too careful...who knows.  US-05 is pretty cheap and a good clean strain, which I like.  It lets the hops and malt do the talkin', not the yeast.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: Hokerer on February 10, 2011, 05:21:55 PM
US-05 is pretty cheap and a good clean strain, which I like.  It lets the hops and malt do the talkin', not the yeast.

Unless you're doing something like a Hefe where it's all about the yeast doing to talkin', right? :)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: denny on February 10, 2011, 06:23:34 PM
US-05 is pretty cheap and a good clean strain, which I like.  It lets the hops and malt do the talkin', not the yeast.

Unless you're doing something like a Hefe where it's all about the yeast doing to talkin', right? :)

I hear WB-06 is a pretty decent dry yeast for a hefe.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: majorvices on February 11, 2011, 01:20:37 AM
US-05 is pretty cheap and a good clean strain, which I like.  It lets the hops and malt do the talkin', not the yeast.

Unless you're doing something like a Hefe where it's all about the yeast doing to talkin', right? :)

I hear WB-06 is a pretty decent dry yeast for a hefe.

Meh ... not in my opinion.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: tubercle on February 11, 2011, 03:41:29 AM
 Tubercle is going to start hydrating 1/2 pack and sprinkling the other 1/2 directly. Just covering all the bases here.
 
 Unless it is time to let Herman out to play for a while 8) Then a couple of big spoonfuls gets schlopped in...party's over.

 Like we used to say back in my days on the SWAT team...when the tail gate drops...the bull$h(t stops.


Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: a10t2 on February 11, 2011, 08:19:55 AM
I'll second Keith's "meh". WB-06 makes an OK, but not great, American wheat. It isn't a hefeweizen yeast at all IME.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: hamiltont on February 11, 2011, 02:38:07 PM
I'll second Keith's "meh". WB-06 makes an OK, but not great, American wheat. It isn't a hefeweizen yeast at all IME.
I have to agree.  WLP380 is the bomb for Hefe's IMO.  Cheers!!!
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: dean on February 11, 2011, 03:59:59 PM
I wasn't going to say anything in this thread because I disagree with a lot of what gets said and is taken for gospel in the homebrewing world.  Here is yet another example of more information leading to yet another twist to pitching rates etc.  In NB catalog it states that when making a beer you would normally need a 2 liter starter... you can cut that to 1/2 a liter if you use a stir plate.   ::)  Just more disinformation imo.  I haven't gone to JZ's website and used the calculater in quite a while because it too is making assumptions rather than imperical fact... jmo.   And the site sure loads slower than molasses in January which is unusual for a site not loaded with tons of graphics so it makes me wonder abouts safety.

I'm with Denny and Fred, until I pitch something and it fails I guess.  Jmo...
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: denny on February 11, 2011, 04:07:16 PM
Meh ... not in my opinion.

That's good to hear, since I haven't personally tried it.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: beersk on February 11, 2011, 06:37:24 PM
Well, that goes without saying.  A hefe, you obviously want the yeast character to dominate.  For me, however, I don't brew that many, if any, yeast dominate beers.  So US-05 is a great yeast to feature more of the hops/malt balances.  
Dean, I get what you're saying.  But what does JZ have to gain by telling you to pitch a certain amount of yeast?  It's not like he's selling a product and wants you to give him money.  He's trying to tell you that that is the amount of yeast you need to pitch to get a "proper" fermentation and make great beer versus good beer.  But, that's just his opinion based on his experience (I guess...).  You do what you like, it's your beer.  I don't follow his pitch rates either, but I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: dean on February 11, 2011, 10:51:05 PM
Oh, I know what you mean, I'm not complaing about JZ or his calculation... just saying it is yet another opinion that many homebrewers will swear by whether its actually right or wrong doesn't matter.   It has been written therefore It Must Be So...   ;)   ;D   Look how many people balk on no-chill method etc.  I almost shudder when I read or hear people say "the beer gods"... its like religion... you believe or you don't and the reasons why aren't necessarily important so long as you believe and follow one or the other.   ;) :D

I would probably still use his calculator to a point if the site wasn't so slow in loading... and the loading speed is what concerns me, but then I'm no computer guru either so.   ::)

Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: a10t2 on February 11, 2011, 11:26:58 PM
I would probably still use his calculator to a point if the site wasn't so slow in loading...

Well, it's Flash, so mystery solved on that one.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: euge on February 11, 2011, 11:33:06 PM
I hear ya Dean. I don't always accept the party line or convention. In fact some of my methods might seem unconventional but they work for me. Had to learn through experience some things have a wide latitude and others don't. I try to work within the boundaries I've set for myself. 
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: kgs on February 12, 2011, 02:13:50 PM
I hear ya Dean. I don't always accept the party line or convention. In fact some of my methods might seem unconventional but they work for me. Had to learn through experience some things have a wide latitude and others don't. I try to work within the boundaries I've set for myself. 

Agree with Euge and Dean. Part of the joy of homebrewing is testing the bounds of the party line or convention. I have twice successfully used a starter method suggested by one homebrewer at the LHBS (someone whose advice generally makes sense) where I make a starter in the carboy and pitch the wort on top of it. I was skeptical, and I had arguments against it (not enough depth for the starter, layer of oxygenated beer you can't really pour off easily, etc.), but the ease of it was tempting so I tried it, and the two times I used that method, the fermentation took off like a rocket and the beer turned out great.

But mostly I pitch an unhydrated packet of US-05 into wort at or just under 70 degrees f, and it works out fine, and if there are millions of tiny screams as yeast cells die, I don't hear them. Especially for my 3-gallon batches of ale or stout, there's no reason one packet of dry yeast isn't plenty. The next time I do a "repeater" I may reconstitute the yeast in 90-degree water and time the fermentation to see if it is all that faster/heartier. That said, a few dead cells seem a reasonable tradeoff for eliminating a possible contamination opportunity at a vulnerable point in the brewing process, post-brew and pre-fermentation.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: dean on February 12, 2011, 06:19:12 PM
I think the problem is nobody does anything the exact same.   :D  Sean (a10T2) did a yeast pitching test with a number of volunteers and shared the results they found but did anyone actually do everthing the exact same or not?  You can follow a procedure but it doesn't mean that you've every situation, circumstance or event etc during the procedure were equal... maybe it could be done in high profile laboratory setting but even then there could be some variance attributed I would guess.  Since none of us have that tight of a quality control lab setting I don't see how a conclusion could be reached for the general brewing public? 

I mean come on... things are getting so superstitious that people are probably monitoring the temperature of their starsan solution now.   ::)   :D   RDWHAHB...   ;)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: a10t2 on February 13, 2011, 02:06:29 AM
Sean (a10T2) did a yeast pitching test with a number of volunteers and shared the results they found but did anyone actually do everthing the exact same or not?

You lost me there. Are you maybe thinking of the BBR/BYO experiment where everyone who participated brewed on their own?
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: dean on February 13, 2011, 02:13:08 AM
Yeh... wasn't that you?
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: BrewQwest on February 13, 2011, 07:50:04 PM
Ok, I am a bit confused here.... Back on page 1 of this thread, The quotation by clayton cone states that each gram of the dried yeast contains 20 billion live yeast cells.  But on their own web site they quote different quantities. See here for the spec sheet on their Nottingham yeast: http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf (http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf)
Item 2 states they have more than 5 Billion cells (5 x 109 =5 billion right) per gram but
Item 4 of that pdf file states 100 grams in 100 hectoliters gives you a density of only 5 - 10 million cells per milliliter. This could be equivalently scaled to 10 grams at 10 liters or only 2.64 gallons. Which would mean I would need 20 grams for 5 gallons just to give me a max of 10 million cells per milliliter. Furthermore, if you look up SafeAles S-05 pdf sheet, you will find only 6 billiion yeast cells per gram. Meaning a 11 gram sachet would only have a maximum of 66 billion yeast cells!! Or am I computing wrongly here... ??? Is not 6 x 109 not equal to 6 billion??
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: denny on February 13, 2011, 09:38:19 PM
Yeh... wasn't that you?

In Sean's experiment, he brewed all the beer and sent it out to people.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: tubercle on February 13, 2011, 09:57:32 PM
Ok, I am a bit confused here.... Back on page 1 of this thread, The quotation by clayton cone states that each gram of the dried yeast contains 20 billion live yeast cells.  But on their own web site they quote different quantities. See here for the spec sheet on their Nottingham yeast: http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf (http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf)
Item 2 states they have more than 5 Billion cells (5 x 109 =5 billion right) per gram but
Item 4 of that pdf file states 100 grams in 100 hectoliters gives you a density of only 5 - 10 million cells per milliliter. This could be equivalently scaled to 10 grams at 10 liters or only 2.64 gallons. Which would mean I would need 20 grams for 5 gallons just to give me a max of 10 million cells per milliliter. Furthermore, if you look up SafeAles S-05 pdf sheet, you will find only 6 billiion yeast cells per gram. Meaning a 11 gram sachet would only have a maximum of 66 billion yeast cells!! Or am I computing wrongly here... ??? Is not 6 x 109 not equal to 6 billion??

 It also says "Nottingham British Ale yeast has been conditioned to survive rehydration. The yeast contains an
adequate reservoir of carbohydrates and unsaturated fatty acids to achieve active growth. It is
unnecessary to aerate wort."
(emphasis mine)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: beersk on February 15, 2011, 04:20:18 PM
Eh, I still use the shake method in 6.5 gallon carboys.  Might as well aerate at least somewhat with dry yeast, eh?
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: bluesman on February 15, 2011, 05:26:02 PM
Might as well aerate at least somewhat with dry yeast, eh?

Yes. I always aerate the wort whether I'm using liquid or dry. They need the O2 to go to battle.  :)
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: morticaixavier on February 15, 2011, 05:56:08 PM
Ok, I am a bit confused here.... Back on page 1 of this thread, The quotation by clayton cone states that each gram of the dried yeast contains 20 billion live yeast cells.  But on their own web site they quote different quantities. See here for the spec sheet on their Nottingham yeast: http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf (http://www.danstaryeast.com/sites/default/files/nottingham_datasheet.pdf)
Item 2 states they have more than 5 Billion cells (5 x 109 =5 billion right) per gram but
Item 4 of that pdf file states 100 grams in 100 hectoliters gives you a density of only 5 - 10 million cells per milliliter. This could be equivalently scaled to 10 grams at 10 liters or only 2.64 gallons. Which would mean I would need 20 grams for 5 gallons just to give me a max of 10 million cells per milliliter. Furthermore, if you look up SafeAles S-05 pdf sheet, you will find only 6 billiion yeast cells per gram. Meaning a 11 gram sachet would only have a maximum of 66 billion yeast cells!! Or am I computing wrongly here... ??? Is not 6 x 109 not equal to 6 billion??

A hectoliter is 100 liters. so 100 hectoliters = 10,000 liters so that's .01 grams per liter or .1 gram per 10 liters or 1 gram per 100 liters to hit that 5-10 million cells per milliliter.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: BrewQwest on February 16, 2011, 05:24:24 PM
A hectoliter is 100 liters. so 100 hectoliters = 10,000 liters so that's .01 grams per liter or .1 gram per 10 liters or 1 gram per 100 liters to hit that 5-10 million cells per milliliter.

thanks for correcting my math... I originally figured 10 grams to 10 liters which I see now was way off.... but does the correct answer of only 1 gram to 1 hectoliter (100 liters) giving 5-10 million cells per milliliter seem wierd to anybody else??? cheers!!
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: a10t2 on February 16, 2011, 11:02:34 PM
but does the correct answer of only 1 gram to 1 hectoliter (100 liters) giving 5-10 million cells per milliliter seem wierd to anybody else??? cheers!!

That must be a mistake. I think they meant to say 100 g per 100 L, or 100 g per hL, but instead wrote both.
Title: Re: US-05...Is One Packet Enough?
Post by: gimmeales on February 17, 2011, 05:05:44 PM
Just piling on my experience for another data point - I've got clean, full fermentations with 1.070 wort with one packet of US-05 (rehydrated per instructions).

This went against my better judgement at the time, but it was all I had and was going to hit it with another packet if it stalled on me, but it didn't.  Made a very nice Robust Porter