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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: noonancm on February 10, 2011, 11:10:07 PM

Title: lightbulbs
Post by: noonancm on February 10, 2011, 11:10:07 PM
The other day I came across this article that got me thinking:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment/2011-02-07-lightbulbs_N.htm

Has anyone wondered what would be the implications that the new lightbulbs would have on homebrewing?

For example, I brew in the basement and store my bottles in the basement and so, I have always been conscious of using incandescent lights to minimize skunking. What am I going to do once I cannot get such lightbulbs?

What about those who use incandescent lightbulbs as a heat source in their fermentation chamber?, etc?

Just wondering with a homebrew in hand.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: oscarvan on February 10, 2011, 11:36:05 PM
There will be incandescent lamps for sale somewhere.....
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: morticaixavier on February 10, 2011, 11:49:12 PM
How many theatre techs does it take to change a lightbulb?

It's called a LAMP!

sorry, couildn't help myself

I would imagine there will (are?) narrow spectrum flouresent bulbs available that do not include the UV. probably also heat lamps of some kind. think of all the poor lizards! also a heat stone (For lizards) would work as well as a bulb for temperature increases.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: punatic on February 11, 2011, 01:55:05 AM
How many theatre techs does it take to change a lightbulb?

It's called a LAMP!

sorry, couildn't help myself


I use a Gobo to keep my bottled beer out of the light...   ;D

(http://www.snark-sharks.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/gobo_fraggle1.jpg)
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: tubercle on February 11, 2011, 03:45:48 AM
Tubercle is buying up a few because he keeps one burning in the well house during freezing weather to keep thing from freezing. A hundred watt puts out an amazing amount of heat in a small place.

Got a house full of those mercury tainted curly things.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: rabid_dingo on February 11, 2011, 06:28:48 AM
Those will be a thing of the past soon. Have you seen these:?

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4028922&CAWELAID=468159135 (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4028922&CAWELAID=468159135)

They keep listing them as "Accent" but I have seen some that are regular light bulb replacing bulbs.
No Hg in them little to no heat and 100,000 hour life spans...
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: tschmidlin on February 11, 2011, 07:17:44 AM
I tried the fluorescents outside - they have dramatically shorter lifespans when subjected to outside conditions, I don't know if it's the temperature swings or extremes, but it can't be saving energy overall when the incandescent ones last longer.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: oscarvan on February 11, 2011, 12:36:13 PM
Those will be a thing of the past soon. Have you seen these:?

http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4028922&CAWELAID=468159135 (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4028922&CAWELAID=468159135)

They keep listing them as "Accent" but I have seen some that are regular light bulb replacing bulbs.
No Hg in them little to no heat and 100,000 hour life spans...

Those look like just the ticket for my outdoor lights by the front door..... somehow they are on a lot....
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: MDixon on February 11, 2011, 12:36:58 PM
Fluorescent bulbs really aren't made for exterior use except in mild climates (no cold). LED is the way to go instead, but they don't really have a good selection of products yet. I'm planning to put in LED for an exterior project later this year if they are available. The thought of never having to get on a ladder to change a light bulb is appealing ;)
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: mabrungard on February 11, 2011, 01:37:31 PM
The other thing that kills fluorescent lights is the frequency of turning them on and off.  Reportedly, if you leave them on continuously, they have long lives.  But frequent on/off cycles will drastically reduce their life. 

I see that there are UV filter sleeves for tube-type fluorescent bulbs.  They are kind of expensive in my opinion.  My brewery will be moving indoors in the next year and I know that incandesent bulbs are on their way out.   Using fluorescent makes some sense since the boiling wort would be exposed only briefly and all the finished beer is kegged.  But, I am open to using something like LED right over the brew pot. 
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: jeffy on February 11, 2011, 02:22:15 PM
Using fluorescent makes some sense since the boiling wort would be exposed only briefly and all the finished beer is kegged.  But, I am open to using something like LED right over the brew pot. 

Ray Daniels had a nice write up on light struck beers in a Zymurgy not too long ago.  To summarize you don't need to worry about it until after fermentation, so if you were debating which lights to use while brewing because of that, then you needn't worry. 
If it was because of the heat generated then (in my best Rosanne Rosannnadanna voice) never mind....
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 11, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
Using fluorescent makes some sense since the boiling wort would be exposed only briefly and all the finished beer is kegged.  But, I am open to using something like LED right over the brew pot. 
ray Daniels had a nice write up on light struck beers in a Zymurgy not too long ago.  To summarize you don't need to worry about it until after fermentation, so if you were debating which lights to use while brewing because of that, then you needn't worry. 
If it was because of the heat generated then (in my best Rosanne Rosannnadanna voice) never mind....
Skunking requires riboflavin in the beer, which comes from the fermentation as I understand it.
You can brew in direct sunlight and not have skunked beer.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: MDixon on February 11, 2011, 03:21:39 PM
Martin is correct, fluorescent bulbs are better if you plan to leave the light on for a period of time or do not need instant light. I sat through a presentation which seemed to indicated LED are not especially happy if you switch them often. This was for a commercial installation. At home we'd probably never notice the reduction in lifespan.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: Slowbrew on February 11, 2011, 05:45:01 PM
Fluorescent bulbs really aren't made for exterior use except in mild climates (no cold). LED is the way to go instead, but they don't really have a good selection of products yet. I'm planning to put in LED for an exterior project later this year if they are available. The thought of never having to get on a ladder to change a light bulb is appealing ;)

I was forced to buy florescent flood lights once (nothing else was available).  When you needed them turned on it would take 3-4 minutes to get the full light intensity out of them.  It didn't make much sense to use them in a security situation and I have since replaced them with the old standard bulbs.  Now the rabbit that freezes in place in the flower bed is clearly visible and can be dealt with.

I'm hoping LEDs come down in price quickly because I just don't like the curly cue lights.

As for incandescent bulbs being available?  Don't count on it, the last plant that builds them here in the US is closing this year.

Paul
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: schristian619 on February 11, 2011, 05:54:38 PM
There are fluorescent lamps that are more of an instant on, they're just a little pricier.  The LEDs are a good source as well, and they don't produce any UV rays, making them great for beer.  Yes, they are expensive now, and the 100K hour life is a very high estimate and most likely far from true, but they do offer a significant energy savings.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: tschmidlin on February 11, 2011, 06:00:35 PM
I'm more likely to go with led than fluorescent, I'm looking forward to the prices dropping.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: euge on February 11, 2011, 06:38:11 PM
I'm more likely to go with led than fluorescent, I'm looking forward to the prices dropping.

I use led's for certain applications and they work extremely well. In the street stoplights led's fail on occasion. It may be an outdoor exposure or a switching issue, but at least if one or two led's fail the light still works overall.

http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting (http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting) Still pricey!
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: tschmidlin on February 11, 2011, 07:03:34 PM
http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting (http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting) Still pricey!
Yeah, they need to come down in price by half.  And half again.  And again.  Maybe a couple more times too :)
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: Hokerer on February 11, 2011, 07:36:35 PM
http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting (http://www.1000bulbs.com/category/led-lighting) Still pricey!
Yeah, they need to come down in price by half.  And half again.  And again.  Maybe a couple more times too :)

And up in equivalent.  I could really use a couple of equivalent replacements for some 75W incandescents (equivalent physical important too).
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: breslinp on February 11, 2011, 11:39:05 PM


In the street stoplights led's fail on occasion.

They also fail to melt snow leading to very dangerous situations.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: boo on February 13, 2011, 05:02:23 PM
Hey guys, I used to work in lighting R&D, here's some info re the article and comments.

- There is a new higher efficiency incandescent bulb in development.  It will have a similar spectral output to current incandescent bulbs, but twice the efficiency (still less efficient than CFL's).  The new high efficiency incandescents will replace the old technology that will eventually be phased out.  

- Most people that hate CFL don't recognize that there are different color temperatures available.  Warm White is the closest to an incandescent while cool white is more blue and is often described as "cold and sterile".  

- CFL's have electronics inside the package that don't handle moisture well. Unless they are designed for outdoor use keep them inside.  Also, they have to warm up to get full light output.  The technology has gotten better and they now heat up faster, but there's still a warm up period.  The colder the room the longer the warm up, another reason they don't work as well outside.  I have some in the garage and you can tell the difference in the winter.

- As for LED's mainly being available as accent lighting, it's because it's replacement for low wattage lighting, not primary lighting.  The technical challenge with LED's is getting the heat away from the LED.  So, if you get too many in a small package the generated heat can be detrimental.  It's not as much heat as a an incandescent bulb, but LED's can't handle the heat.

- I guess it's the UV in light that causes skunking in beer.  So sunlight, fluorescent bulbs and even some LED bulbs have significant UV output.  Best to avoid light.  Solid plastic and most fabrics can filter out the UV, but to be sure it's just best to keep beer in the dark to protect it.

Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: paul on February 13, 2011, 06:13:16 PM
A lot of posters have suggested the skunking is caused primarily by UV light.  I was interested in this question recently, and it appears that it's visible light that causes the problem.  Here's my question and some responses: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=2726.0

Since visible light seems to cause the problem, and we all want to be able to see the beers in the reach in coolers, it's going to be tough to completely eliminate the problem.

But LEDs seem to be a good option for liquor store coolers for a variety of reasons:

They work well, actually better, at cold temperatures.

They put out less heat, so there's less load on the refrigeration.

They are highly directional, so designers can direct just enough light to where it's needed.  This minimizes bright spots in some parts of the coolers, and dim spots in the other.  Keeping the average light level down should minimize skunking.

Motion sensor controls can turn off the LEDs when no one is around.  Why subject the bottles to light when there's no one there to look at them?  The local grocery store has been retrofitting their reach in coolers with this system and it seems to be working fairly well.  I think LEDs do a little better with frequent switching than fluorescents.

Here's a couple articles about the technology:
http://adventurelightingblog.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/led-freezer-lights-hot-topic-cool-look/
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/7/4/12.
Title: Re: lightbulbs
Post by: oscarvan on February 14, 2011, 03:29:47 AM


In the street stoplights led's fail on occasion.

They also fail to melt snow leading to very dangerous situations.

The law of unintended consequences.