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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: mrbounds on February 25, 2011, 05:26:47 PM

Title: Schneider Yeast
Post by: mrbounds on February 25, 2011, 05:26:47 PM
Hi Everyone,

I am planning on brewing a dunkelweizen pretty soon and my Missus loves Schneider weisse. Does anyone know if their yeast is commercially available and if not what a good substitution would be?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: bluesman on February 25, 2011, 05:31:01 PM
From the Wyeast website. This is from the FAQ's page.

17. Hi Wyeast, I tried the Schneider Weisse Original in the US in a bottle and have been somewhat underwhelmed. I recently tried this on tap in Munich, however, and was blown away by its taste and aroma. Which one of the hefeweizen yeast strains that you carry do you think would produce a beer most similar to Schneider Weisse Original? Also, with this strain, what fermentation temperature or temperature profile would you recommend? Any guidance you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Matt

Hi Matt, Thank you for the email. Our #3068 Weihenstephan Wheat is a great choice for this beer. Ferment your wort at 68 and pitch 5 gal with one Activator. High pitch rates (multiple packages or making a starter) will reduce the desired ester (banana) profile. I hope that this helps. Cheers, Greg
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Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: mrbounds on February 25, 2011, 05:33:53 PM
Nice one! Thanks very much for the info.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tumarkin on February 25, 2011, 06:36:39 PM
3068 is a great yeast for weizens. Just be aware that 3068 is Weinstephaner, not the Schneider yeast (unless they're using the Weinstephaner yeast as well). Weinstephaner was the original & still one of the best, it's my go-to yeast for weizens.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Kaiser on February 25, 2011, 06:45:30 PM

Hi Matt, Thank you for the email. Our #3068 Weihenstephan Wheat is a great choice for this beer. Ferment your wort at 68 and pitch 5 gal with one Activator. High pitch rates (multiple packages or making a starter) will reduce the desired ester (banana) profile. I hope that this helps. Cheers, Greg
 

Here is what I know on that subject.

Schneider and Weihenstephan are not using the same yeast. The Schneider yeast is a predominantly estery Weissbier yeast while W68 (as WY3068 is known in Germany) is a predominantly phenolic Weissbier yeast. So I was told by the tour guide at the Weihenstephan brewery.

The good news is that Scheider bottles with their Weissbier yeast and many German home brewers suggest taking the dregs of a Schneider bottle to build up a pitch of Weissbier yeast. The bad news is that the Schneider beer available here doesn’t contain live cells. I tried culturing this yeast.

When I was in Germany I couldn’t find Schneider where my parents live. I plan to look harder next time to bring back some yeast and add it to my yeast bank.

Kai
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Hokerer on February 25, 2011, 07:07:44 PM
The Schneider yeast is a predominantly estery Weissbier yeast while W68 (as WY3068 is known in Germany) is a predominantly phenolic Weissbier yeast.

So ester = clove and phenolic = banana ?  Or is that the wrong analogy.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on February 25, 2011, 07:11:32 PM
The Schneider yeast is a predominantly estery Weissbier yeast while W68 (as WY3068 is known in Germany) is a predominantly phenolic Weissbier yeast.

So ester = clove and phenolic = banana ?  Or is that the wrong analogy.
It's backwards, phenolic = clove, ester = banana.

I'll see if Wyeast has the Schneider and just doesn't offer it.  Maybe we can get a special release. :)
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Hokerer on February 25, 2011, 07:16:00 PM
It's backwards, phenolic = clove, ester = banana.

I'll see if Wyeast has the Schneider and just doesn't offer it.  Maybe we can get a special release. :)

I was just guessing based on my experience with 3068.  I get mondo banana and minimal clove (which is what I prefer) from it so, based on Kai's statement, I figured it wrong.

Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Kaiser on February 25, 2011, 07:19:26 PM
I was just guessing based on my experience with 3068.  I get mondo banana and minimal clove (which is what I prefer) from it so, based on Kai's statement, I figured it wrong.

I always found the 3068 to be more phenolic than estery, but fermentation conditions also play a big role.

Kai
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Hokerer on February 25, 2011, 07:25:09 PM
I was just guessing based on my experience with 3068.  I get mondo banana and minimal clove (which is what I prefer) from it so, based on Kai's statement, I figured it wrong.

I always found the 3068 to be more phenolic than estery, but fermentation conditions also play a big role.

Kai

Sounds like I should also be looking for the Schneider yeast, then.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: bluesman on February 25, 2011, 07:28:16 PM
I found this breakdown of phenolic/ester flavor descriptions which seems to be accurate IMO.

Class 1 - Aromatic, Fragrant, Fruity, Floral

0110 Alcoholic OTW The general effect of ethanol and higher alcohols
       -Spicy OTW Allspice, nutmeg, peppery, eugenol. See also 1003 Vanilla
       -Vinous OTW Bouquet, fusely, wine-like (White wine)
0120 Solvent-like OT Like chemical solvents
       -Plastics OT Plasticizers
       -Can-liner OT Lacquer-like
       -Acetone
0130 Estery OT Like aliphatic esters
       -Isoamyl acetate OT Banana, peardrop
       -Ethyl hexanoate OT Apple-like with note of aniseed. See 0142 Apple
       -Ethyl acetate OT Light fruity, solvent-like. See also 0120 Solvent like
0140 Fruity OT Of specific fruits or mixtures of fruits
       -Citrus OT Citral, grapefruit, lemony, orange-rind
       -Apple
       -Banana
       -Blackcurrant OT Blackcurrant fruit. For Blackcurrant leaves use 0810 Catty
       -Melony
       -Pear
       -Raspberry
       -Strawberry
0150 Acetaldehyde OT Green apples, raw appleskin, bruised apples
0160 Floral OT Like flowers, fragrant
       -2-Phenylethanol OT Rose-like
       -Geraniol OT Rose-like, different from 0161. Taster should compare the pure chemicals
       -Perfumy OT Scented
0170 Hoppy OT Fresh hop aroma. Use with other terms to describe stale hop aroma. Does not include hop bitterness
       -Kettle-hop OT Flavor imparted by aroma hops boiled in the kettle.
       -Dry-hop OT Flavor imparted by dry hops added in tank or cask.
       -Hop oil OT Flavor imparted by addition of distilled hop oil.


Class 5 - Phenolic
0500 Phenolic OT
       -Tarry OT Pitch, faulty pitching of containers.
       -Bakelite
       -Carbolic OT Phenol.
       -Chlorophenol OT Trichlorophenol (TCP), hospital-like.
       -Iodoform OT Iodophors, hospital-like, pharmaceutical.

I have always attributed esters to fruit and phenolics to spice.
 

Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on February 25, 2011, 08:10:58 PM
I have always attributed esters to fruit and phenolics to spice.
This list appears to limit "phenolic" to off-flavors.  But the clove flavor and aroma from this yeast is 4-vinylguaiacol, which is a phenol.  It's IUPAC name is 4-Ethenyl-2-methoxyphenol.  It is chemically very similar to eugenol, which they have listed under Alcoholic-Spicy, but that is also a phenol.

Descriptors don't have to match chemistry as long as everyone is on the same page, but a lot of people don't use the flavor wheel.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 26, 2011, 02:14:56 AM
I plan to look harder next time to bring back some yeast and add it to my yeast bank.

Kai


This is interesting topic.
By US Customs you can NOT bring any live yeast/bacteria/micro-organisms into the country.
But they do not have a problem when you bring that bottle of beer with live yeast in it.
Figures.
Just do not try it with cheese or yogurt.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Kaiser on February 26, 2011, 03:03:31 AM
But they do not have a problem when you bring that bottle of beer with live yeast in it.

Or when I bring back plastic bottles that happen to have yeast dregs in them. They would however be suspicious if I would bring slants.

I have thought about this problem and how to make it the least obvious w/o actually carrying lots of beer bottles.

Kai
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tygo on February 26, 2011, 04:20:07 AM
How about packaging the slants with some ice packs sending them via private carrier?  Either Fed Ex or DHS.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on February 27, 2011, 04:40:31 AM
You can take some filter paper with you and pour the dregs through that.  Let it air dry, stick it in a plastic bag, and then mail it to yourself.  Enough will survive for you to culture it.

I asked Greg Doss though (Wyeast microbiologist), and he said 3638 is the Schneider yeast as far as he knows.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on February 27, 2011, 06:15:00 AM
Oh, and by the way, Greg mentioned that he prefers 3068. :)  Along with pretty much everyone else from what I can tell, I've never heard anyone state a strong preference for any other weizen yeast.  I know it's what I'll be using when I get around to making a weizen.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: bluesman on February 27, 2011, 03:30:03 PM
Oh, and by the way, Greg mentioned that he prefers 3068. :)  Along with pretty much everyone else from what I can tell, I've never heard anyone state a strong preference for any other weizen yeast.  I know it's what I'll be using when I get around to making a weizen.

+1

I haven't tried 3068 so this will be used for my next hefe.
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: Kaiser on February 27, 2011, 04:45:45 PM
It is my understanding that W68, which WY3068 seems to be, is the go-to yeast for German Weissbier breweries. It pitty, though, since so much character comes from the yeast.

Kai
Title: Re: Schneider Yeast
Post by: chumley on March 02, 2011, 08:59:22 PM
Oh, and by the way, Greg mentioned that he prefers 3068. :)  Along with pretty much everyone else from what I can tell, I've never heard anyone state a strong preference for any other weizen yeast.  I know it's what I'll be using when I get around to making a weizen.

Well, I much prefer WY3333 and I know a couple of other homebrewers in that camp as well.  Compared to 3068, its more fruity and less phenolic.