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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: 1vertical on March 06, 2011, 01:11:19 pm

Title: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: 1vertical on March 06, 2011, 01:11:19 pm
Heat!

http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/bf4b2ba3579e41cc9d1246517d5e235c/WY-XGR--Concealed_Carry/  (http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/bf4b2ba3579e41cc9d1246517d5e235c/WY-XGR--Concealed_Carry/)

Without fear of reprisal. Always could carry openly.... :P
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: maxieboy on March 06, 2011, 01:29:26 pm
 Michigan probably won't get on board... >:(

edit: for politeness
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: tubercle on March 06, 2011, 03:25:40 pm
http://www.goupstate.com/article/20110224/WIRE/110229840

 Hopefully this will pass in SC also.

 As a former LEO ( Ms. Tubercle also and with 2 daughters and 2 sons-in-law who are current LEO) this may sound strange but this is the only way citizens can protect themselves. LEOs can't sit in your yard to do it for you. Most LEOs that I know, and that is a bunch, are for this contrary to what the media reports. The Media reports what the chief officers say because that is what the councils tell them to say and the street officer can't voice their opinion in public without reprisal. That's why Tubercle is "former". Got tired of the political $h!t.

 Everyone you encounter is approached and considered armed anyway but nothing is to fear from the citizen that voluntarily obeys the law.

 This is highly debatable, I know, and borders on politics so deletion/locking may happen.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: denny on March 06, 2011, 03:35:06 pm
This is highly debatable, I know, and borders on politics so deletion/locking may happen.

This is true, but I know it's important to a lot of people so I hope we don't have to do that.  I haven't discussed this with the other mods, but IMO as long as it stays respectful and non political it can stay.  Now, I'll bow out before I have to ban myself for the comments I'm thinking.....;)
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: tubercle on March 06, 2011, 03:46:39 pm
This is highly debatable, I know, and borders on politics so deletion/locking may happen.

This is true, but I know it's important to a lot of people so I hope we don't have to do that.  I haven't discussed this with the other mods, but IMO as long as it stays respectful and non political it can stay.  Now, I'll bow out before I have to ban myself for the comments I'm thinking.....;)

 Thanks Denny...I'm pretty sure I know where you stand personally  ;) but this is something that is going to have to be dealt with from the general masses in the coming future due to recent events.

 I hope if this thread is allowed to continue if it can be in a genteel manner and a wholesome and intelligent debate can be had to the benefit of all. Even though very few of have ever met in person we have all become friends within our own "community" here.

 The Tubercle has had his say-so and will bow out and become a spectator.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: maxieboy on March 06, 2011, 03:51:20 pm
Doesn't sound strange in the least, Tubercle. Sounds like good ole common sense. It's not law abiding gun owners and carriers that are the problem. To disarm this group is to put them at the mercy of those to whom the law means nothing.
Why do I carry a gun? Because a cop is too heavy.  ;)
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: tubercle on March 06, 2011, 03:55:28 pm
Why do I carry a gun? Because a cop is too heavy.  ;)

   :D :D :D That....is...funny :D :D :D

I don't care who you are, that is funny.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: 1vertical on March 06, 2011, 04:10:23 pm
Here I go again walking on thin ice. Sheesh I was just stating the facts, and
relaying new current events.  I don't mind if it gets locked and that, for the record,
it was not my intent to be flambouyant nor solicit politically charged debate.

Yeah maxiboy + tubercle that is funny.... ;D
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: HydraulicSammich on March 06, 2011, 04:15:24 pm
+1  on the carry.  Also retired Nat Res LE.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 06, 2011, 05:20:20 pm
I would say this can be a surprisingly apolitical issue, at least when you are down to individuals, not party platforms. I know plenty of responsible armed folks of many divers stripes of political persuasion.

In the words of Gandalf, keep it secret, keep it safe. Ok, quoting Tolkien in this context takes my nerdery up a notch.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: majorvices on March 06, 2011, 05:41:46 pm
I pack everywhere I go. But can only fire 1 shot and takes 24 hours to reload.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: maxieboy on March 06, 2011, 05:45:37 pm
 ;D

There's no denying that where there is right to carry, violent crime goes down. Criminals relish an unarmed populace, makes for easy pickins. Law abiding citizens are the ones who suffer when unable to defend themselves and their families, and that, is the definition of wrong in my book.

<joins spectators>
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: EHall on March 06, 2011, 07:32:49 pm
AZ just did this, I don't agree with it. I went thru the class and got my CCP. I think everyone should... there are plenty of people who are going to carry and no have a clue how to handle a weapon... very dangerous! Everyone should have to take a course.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: Hokerer on March 06, 2011, 07:47:01 pm
I pack everywhere I go. But can only fire 1 shot and takes 24 hours to reload.

I've heard of little blue pills that can help you with that.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: tygo on March 06, 2011, 08:05:17 pm
AZ just did this, I don't agree with it. I went thru the class and got my CCP. I think everyone should... there are plenty of people who are going to carry and no have a clue how to handle a weapon... very dangerous! Everyone should have to take a course.

Gotta agree with that.  You need to take a gun safety course to get a hunting license (at least in PA) when you're 12.  You should have to take one to carry around a handgun.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: majorvices on March 06, 2011, 08:14:25 pm
I pack everywhere I go. But can only fire 1 shot and takes 24 hours to reload.

I've heard of little blue pills that can help you with that.

You must not be payin' attention, son. That's not at all what I said.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: tschmidlin on March 06, 2011, 11:30:51 pm
There's no denying that where there is right to carry, violent crime goes down.
Yes there is.  There is no direct correlation either way between a right to carry and violent crime.  If you were right, the states with the loosest gun laws would have the least amount of violent crime, and that's just not the case.  Compare Rhode Island to Alaska in per capita violent crime.  If it was the opposite, the states with the strictest gun laws would have the least violent crime.  Compare Washington DC to South Dakota.  It just doesn't work, there's not a direct relationship.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 07, 2011, 01:18:16 am
I'm working on getting my hunting license here so I'll chime in since it applies to me. Before I get going, I want to say that at my dad's house we have an Enfield 308 from the Indian/Pakistani wars (with matching WWI bayonet!) , a Winchester 30-06 that's over 100 years old (octagonal barrel!), and a Colt 1911A1 .45 caliber handgun that belonged to my second cousin, who was a fighter pilot in Europe during WWII. We go out and shoot those things at the range and it's a LOT of fun. I think knowing how to strip, clean, reassemble and fire a gun accurately are very important skills. Having said that:

Concealed carry is a bit of a catch 22. The people that really want it probably shouldn't have it. There aren't any boogie men coming to kill your family in the night, at least no more than is statistically probable, and frankly the idea of having one or more random guys with guns standing around waiting to start a firefight at the slightest sign of a purse-snatching does not make me feel any safer. I've never been in a firefight but I have a friend in the Marines and I've heard that bullets do not always go where you want them to - and that's too much of a risk.

In France (like the rest of the EU) handguns, shotguns that are not side-by-side or over-under (meaning, you only have two shots before you have to reload) and rifles larger than 22 caliber are considered weapons of war and are absolutely illegal without any reservations (unless you're a cop or in the military and are on active duty, of course). The violent crime here is much, much, much lower than most of the US, so again, having the right to carry does not equal a reduced rate of crime. "If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is, while true in a strictly logical sense, is as it applies to rates of crime demonstrably false.

In my travels I've found that (perhaps contrary to popular belief in the states) most people in Europe like the US, and recognize them to still be innovators and a land of good people. There's none of that "they hate us for our freedom" stuff, at least not from reasonable people (every country has its crazies). But things like concealed carry get many a raise of the eyebrow. To many people here, things like that are a bit like pretending it's the wild west, with outlaws around every corner trying to hijack your stagecoach. Something for the TV, but in real life might indicate a bit of an imbalance.

Living in the European Union, where unlike the US, more than one country here has been invaded and occupied as recently as the last 60 years, you would think that, following the logic of needing militias, freedom to carry for 'defense,' etc, many countries would have the desire to keep the populace armed. But they don't. Seems to work out pretty well here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: pinnah on March 07, 2011, 05:09:09 am
things like that are a bit like pretending it's the wild west, with outlaws around every corner trying to hijack your stagecoach.

 :D Good stuff man.


I guess I am lucky,
and live in a place where I don't feel like I need any "protection".

Hell, I wouldn't even know where to start looking for the house keys.

I do, however, have a shotgun by the bed,
<squints eyes down to mean slits>
in case any more rouge varmits come looking for chicken dinner. :-X
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 07, 2011, 06:28:22 am
Before I get going, I want to say that at my dad's house we have an Enfield 308 from the Indian/Pakistani wars (with matching WWI bayonet!)

303 you mean or is rechambered in 308?

Love them.  I have 3 No4s and 1 No1MkIII*.  Went to the National WWI Museum the other day (one of the few claims to fame in Kansas City) and they had a number of No1MkIII*s in the cases.  Of course, lots of more interesting and more rare weaponry as well!!! Neat museum for the history buff on an almost forgotten (in the States) war.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 07, 2011, 06:47:42 am
Before I get going, I want to say that at my dad's house we have an Enfield 308 from the Indian/Pakistani wars (with matching WWI bayonet!)

303 you mean or is rechambered in 308?

Love them.  I have 3 No4s and 1 No1MkIII*.  Went to the National WWI Museum the other day (one of the few claims to fame in Kansas City) and they had a number of No1MkIII*s in the cases.  Of course, lots of more interesting and more rare weaponry as well!!! Neat museum for the history buff on an almost forgotten (in the States) war.

I think you're right. Wikipedia says Ishapore 2A/2A1. Also, the Winchester isn't a 30-06, it's a 30-30: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1894 it was made in 1896.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: EHall on March 07, 2011, 09:11:34 am
'and frankly the idea of having one or more random guys with guns standing around waiting to start a firefight at the slightest sign of a purse-snatching does not make me feel any safer.'

Thus the reason I think everyone who wants to carry should go thru a course... or more... anyone whos gone thru a course gets somewhat familiar with the local laws and if you're going to carry you should be familiar with them. Any jackass who pulls a gun on a purse snatcher and even thinks about taking a shot, especially if they're running away will be the one to goto jail and lose that priviledge to carry again...
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 07, 2011, 09:14:28 am
'and frankly the idea of having one or more random guys with guns standing around waiting to start a firefight at the slightest sign of a purse-snatching does not make me feel any safer.'

Thus the reason I think everyone who wants to carry should go thru a course... or more... anyone whos gone thru a course gets somewhat familiar with the local laws and if you're going to carry you should be familiar with them. Any jackass who pulls a gun on a purse snatcher and even thinks about taking a shot, especially if they're running away will be the one to goto jail and lose that priviledge to carry again...

For sure. If you have to allow carry permits (due to demographics/politics demanding it) then you should have to go through a whole bunch of hoops.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 07, 2011, 10:10:45 am

I think you're right. Wikipedia says Ishapore 2A/2A1.

No, you were right the first time!  An Ishapore 2A is a post-war Enfield rechambered for .308 or 7.62 NATO.  Would probably be easier to find ammo with one of those, just probably wouldn't want to fire anything overly hot in them.  I can't remember if its .308 or 7.62 NATO that can be loaded to higher pressures than the other.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: Slowbrew on March 07, 2011, 10:35:42 am
Iowa passed a law like this last year and it's been huge in the news for months.  I have no problem with qualified people having what ever weapon they are inclined to buy (within reason, no one needs a high caliber full auto or Triple A or something). 

My issue with Iowa carry law is the lax requirements.  You can get a concealed carry license without having ever touched, much less qualified on the weapon.  You are required to take a 3 hour training course available in several formats, including web based.  I know people I wouldn't trust with empty cartridges much less an loaded weapon who are all excited about getting a license to carry.

Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: weithman5 on March 07, 2011, 10:52:57 am
i know people who aren't qualified to be parents and we let them do that.  you should see some of the harm these people cause to children.  just saying
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: richardt on March 07, 2011, 11:01:29 am
i know people who aren't qualified to be parents and we let them do that.  you should see some of the harm these people cause to children.  just saying
Excellent point.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: EHall on March 07, 2011, 11:13:50 am
I agree, people should have to pass some kind of test or obstacle course... something very challenging before they can have kids...
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: Bret on March 07, 2011, 11:19:10 am
Hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself

--The great Lynyrd Skynrd


Been catching a few episodes of "Sons of Guns." When a couple comes into the gun shop for a handgun to use for home protection, the owner takes them on the range and shows them how most handgun confrontations occur: at very close range.  He then asks the question, "Are you prepared to take a life?"  The couple rethinks their purchase and leaves empty handed.  Point is, a handgun is a specific tool for a specific purpose, and owning/carrying one is a "yes" to the above question. LEOs and military are trained to shoot to kill for this reason.

Personally, I am on the fence with this.  Live in a rougher than most neighborhood with plenty of crime and occasionally ponder a Sig in the nightstand.  I just can't say yes to the question, so I stay on the fence.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: morticaixavier on March 07, 2011, 11:24:22 am
not leaning either way on this but the guy that did super size me has (Had?) a show called 30 days and one episode was an anti-gun activist who went to live with a very gun friendly family for 30 days. It's interesting. Her mind gets changed in the end and there is alot of good info. I come from VT where most people (don't know if that is statisticaly true) have a rifle and many people have hand guns. The folks with hunting weapons have usually gone thru a training course at some time and I generally feel pretty safe there although I don't wander in the woods during hunting season without dressing in blaze orange. It's a very sticky issue. The US constitution does say we are entitled to bear arms but it also says it is in order to maintain a well organized militia.

I used to have a bumper sticker that says 'I support the right to arm bears' that I loved. Have to find another one of those someday.

**EDIT** Bret good thoughts. Right on. that is the question you must ask yourself cause once you have the gun and you pull it out it might happen whether you are ready or not.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 07, 2011, 11:43:17 am
Been catching a few episodes of "Sons of Guns." When a couple comes into the gun shop for a handgun to use for home protection, the owner takes them on the range and shows them how most handgun confrontations occur: at very close range.  He then asks the question, "Are you prepared to take a life?"  The couple rethinks their purchase and leaves empty handed.  Point is, a handgun is a specific tool for a specific purpose, and owning/carrying one is a "yes" to the above question.

Absolutely agree, to own or carry a defensive weapon without giving very serious, grave consideration to this question and arriving at a conclusion is a dangerous thing.  That goes for knives, guns, anything.  It is easy to consider it a good luck charm and to imagine that you'll never need to use it for more than just brandishing if you're in a bad spot.  But you're better off with nothing than carrying a weapon you aren't trained and/or willing to use for its quite serious purpose.

In all likelihood, beyond 99% of CCW licensees will never need to draw a weapon in defence.  But most people will likewise never need to use the fire extinguisher in their home that they replace every couple of years.  That's how I see a CCW...something unlikely ever to be used, but there in case of the worst possible situation, like an airbag in a car or a fire extinguisher.

That said there is a funny mockery of overzealous first time carry folks here:
http://lonelymachines.org/2006/08/12/return-of-the-iron-fist-of-the-mall-ninja/

And this is the classic original:
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: Slowbrew on March 07, 2011, 12:21:08 pm
i know people who aren't qualified to be parents and we let them do that.  you should see some of the harm these people cause to children.  just saying

You can build a straw man for any argument but I think you miss a rather obvious difference between guns and kids.  Kids aren't born able to hurt or kill others and most kids don't get you or someone else hurt/killed because you don't know how to use them.

I'm not against gun ownership or CCW permits.  I worry about people who don't have any training, carrying a gun.  It's like tossing your 14 year old the keys and sending them out on the freeway.  They may be just fine but more than likely something bad is going to happen.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: theoman on March 07, 2011, 12:23:35 pm
I'd like to thank Phillamb for enabling my laziness. You often seem to say what I'm thinking.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: narvin on March 07, 2011, 12:32:19 pm
'and frankly the idea of having one or more random guys with guns standing around waiting to start a firefight at the slightest sign of a purse-snatching does not make me feel any safer.'

Thus the reason I think everyone who wants to carry should go thru a course... or more... anyone whos gone thru a course gets somewhat familiar with the local laws and if you're going to carry you should be familiar with them. Any jackass who pulls a gun on a purse snatcher and even thinks about taking a shot, especially if they're running away will be the one to goto jail and lose that priviledge to carry again...

You'd think that police officers would have had some kind of training, yet there are still incidents where off duty officers pull guns and shoot.  After drunken bar arguments, trying to break up fights, at the dog park(!)... excuse me if I'm not thrilled by the prospect of every moron out there having a gun.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08-06/news/bs-md-ar-bear-bear-shooting-20100806-1_1_bear-bear-dog-park-police-question

http://www.wbaltv.com/r/26427374/detail.html

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-07-23/news/bs-md-dotson-guilty-20100723_1_dotson-s-attorney-unarmed-man-plea-deal

Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: 1vertical on March 07, 2011, 11:37:15 pm
I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a treat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  Not something you should be doing without expecting
repercussion.  Therefore, I believe that if you need to exercise your power by a mere
showing of what you are carrying, perhaps you should not carry.

Rather, go for blood if you pull your piece. Knowing full well those consequences. YMMV
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 08, 2011, 12:15:13 am
I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a treat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  Not something you should be doing without expecting
repercussion.  Therefore, I believe that if you need to exercise your power by a mere
showing of what you are carrying, perhaps you should not carry.

Rather, go for blood if you pull your piece. Knowing full well those consequences. YMMV

This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: EHall on March 08, 2011, 08:30:34 am
An armed society is a polite one!

I'm fully prepared to kill if I have to. I've been trained and think that I have a pretty cool head on my shoulders. I don't want to kill anyone and don't really want to find out what its like, but I am prepared for the responsibility that comes with carrying. But I also think that if you break into someones house you should be prepared to get shot. You know what you're doing is illegal and comes with a great risk, yet they do it anyway. I personally think that if the punishment was alot stronger folks would think twice about some of the things they do and there wouldn't be such a need to carry as often.

A couple months ago I started going for walks every night around my neighborhood. My wife wanted me to take my gun with me. I told her I thought it was unnecessary. I feel perfectly safe there. But I do take my maglite with me. I'm more concerned about dogs than I am people. I know I can defend myself against a dog with a flashlight so thats what I carry.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: morticaixavier on March 08, 2011, 08:49:13 am
But I also think that if you break into someones house you should be prepared to get shot.

This is not a discussion of the right to own guns in the home. It's CONCEALED carry that is at question. The only reason to carry a concealed weapon is if you are prepared to use it. If you want to discourage someone from mugging or otherwise attacking you then strap it on your hip. It should be real visable if it is to be a means of discouragement. otherwise it is only there to make you feel powerful and for that I agree with Phil, learn some martial arts. Also in most mugging situations the best and safest thing you can do is to listen to what they are telling you to do and do it. They want your money/stuff and, at least for me, my life is worth more than my iPhone. if someone puts a gun to my head or a knife to my throat even if I had a gun under my arm I wouldn't want to try to pull down. They have the drop. My sensei back when I took karate always said that the best way to deal with an attacker with a gun or knife is to do whatever they say. The time for resistance is when they intend to kill or maim you regardless.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: maxieboy on March 08, 2011, 08:59:36 am
This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Bit my tongue clean off...
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 08, 2011, 09:05:24 am
This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Bit my tongue clean off...

Doesn't seem like you did to me.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 08, 2011, 09:06:57 am
I'm fully prepared to kill if I have to.

Then you are a very, very, very different person from me.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 08, 2011, 09:14:20 am
I think the brandishing word is worth speaking about because that is a threat....percieved
or real, either way a threat.  

And everyone should realize that brandishing is often a criminal offense!!!  If you present a weapon in public you better have a darned good reason to do so.

My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo.

I agree that it very often can be (see previous posts about mall ninjas for a good chuckle), depending on the individual, but I know a good many women who aren't carrying one for purposes of machismo.  One could say if there is an error of pride and ego, very often it can be on the other side, where some men brazenly insist that the only two weapons they need to take care of themselves are Righty and Lefty.  To quote the title of a sobering and excellent book by Massad Ayoob, a defensive weapon is only useful "In the Gravest Extreme" of situations; it isn't for protecting your honour or ego, just your life (and depending on what state, your property).  A poetic example of what any defensive weapon should be considered is the Sikh kirpan, a symbol itself of ahimsa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: denny on March 08, 2011, 09:19:33 am
This is why I say it's a catch-22. Carrying a firearm says in no uncertain terms, "I am prepared to kill someone." I understand the need to defend yourself. I was mugged once when living in Brooklyn by a couple teenagers who pushed me from behind and tried (tried) to steal my iPhone. For the past two years before that I had been taking boxing lessons to try to get into shape. They found out that I have a rather mean right hook. I didn't need a gun. My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo. You're carrying that gun and it was built with the specific intent to kill. Not wound, not graze, not anything else, just kill. You do not need it.

I understand wanting to protect your family, and to feel like you can provide assistance if needed. But, #1, if you're in public, just call the cops, don't try to be John Wayne. If you can help without a gun, by all means, do it, but adding a firearm to that equation will just make things worse. #2, You want to protect your family, get a taser, or pepper spray, or something that won't kill someone whose circumstances you don't necessarily understand, and leave you with emotional scars that will last a lifetime.

Ok, I'm done with my soapbox, it's here if someone else wants to use it.

Well spoken (typed), Phil.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: EHall on March 08, 2011, 09:25:26 am
Mort, you're right, I got a bit off subject. Let me be clear, I have my CCP but I don't carry that much. It depends on the situation and when I do carry I try to cover it up. I know it makes people nervous to see someone exercising their right. My intent is not to be macho or scare anyone. but I like having the option of being able to carry concealed and the extra training I got in my class was a bonus. I have had martial arts training although its been a while and I've never had to use it, but I do agree, depending on the situation, do what you're told. Taking a few of your personal items is not worth the risk of your life.

Back to the original point, I don't like the idea at all of folks being able to carry concealed w/o going thru training.

And here's something I just came across this morning, going to my 'offtrack' comment, make the punishment more severe and folks would stop being criminals to some degree.

PORTLAND, Ore. — Oregon police say both an intruder and a Portland homeowner phoned 911 to report the same thing: a strange man in a home.

Lt. Kelli Sheffer says the intruder told police he had just broken into a home Monday evening when the owner arrived — and the caller was worried the homeowner might have a gun.

Accompanied by his two German Shepherds, the homeowner found the intruder and asked what he was doing in the house. That's when the stranger locked himself in a bathroom and phoned police.

The homeowner called police with his account.

Sheffer says 24-year-old Timothy James Chapek, of Portland, was booked into jail for investigation of first-degree criminal trespass.

Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 08, 2011, 09:26:48 am
My personal belief, as a father, husband, PCUSA deacon, homebrewer, etc, is that carrying, concealed or otherwise, is a pointless show of machismo.

I agree that it very often can be (see previous posts about mall ninjas for a good chuckle), depending on the individual, but I know a good many women who aren't carrying one for purposes of machismo.  One could say if there is an error of pride and ego, very often it can be on the other side, where some men brazenly insist that the only two weapons they need to take care of themselves are Righty and Lefty.  To quote the title of a sobering and excellent book by Massad Ayoob, a defensive weapon is only useful "In the Gravest Extreme" of situations; it isn't for protecting your honour or ego, just your life (and depending on what state, your property).  A poetic example of what any defensive weapon should be considered is the Sikh kirpan, a symbol itself of ahimsa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

This makes sense. In my previous boxing-related example, I was presented with a situation where I could defend myself by using a non-lethal skill I learned. But I know what you mean when you say it's one thing to use a good smack to defend yourself, but another entirely to go around looking for fights/telling everybody something akin to "One of these days, BANG! To the moon!"

"In the gravest extreme" is exactly when I'd like to have a firearm, but how can you judge when the times are extreme enough to warrant using a lethal weapon? It's a question cops are faced with and (hopefully, usually) receive a huge amount of training on. But knowing the difference between gravest extreme and 'oh crap, there goes my $400 iphone is not something that can be learned by passing a written test. That's why I think carrying isn't a good thing.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 08, 2011, 09:32:10 am
I just realized, what is this thread missing?  BFI!   ;D  Break out the tacos and shurikens, boys!
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: phillamb168 on March 08, 2011, 09:33:26 am
I just realized, what is this thread missing?  BFI!   ;D  Break out the tacos and shurikens, boys!

BFI? http://www.bfi.org.uk/?
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: beersk on March 08, 2011, 09:59:50 am
Hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself

--The great Lynyrd Skynrd


Been catching a few episodes of "Sons of Guns." When a couple comes into the gun shop for a handgun to use for home protection, the owner takes them on the range and shows them how most handgun confrontations occur: at very close range.  He then asks the question, "Are you prepared to take a life?"  The couple rethinks their purchase and leaves empty handed.  Point is, a handgun is a specific tool for a specific purpose, and owning/carrying one is a "yes" to the above question. LEOs and military are trained to shoot to kill for this reason.

Personally, I am on the fence with this.  Live in a rougher than most neighborhood with plenty of crime and occasionally ponder a Sig in the nightstand.  I just can't say yes to the question, so I stay on the fence.

Well, I train Ving Tsun Kung Fu and that's a specific tool for self defense and it's DEADLY.  One has to know how to use their self defense tools.  I don't like that one can just easily kill someone from a distance with a gun, it's cowardly, it's stupid.  Knowing how to use your gun should be mandatory and there should be no way around it.  It makes me sad that I train so hard with my kung fu that someone can just pull out a gun and shoot me.  Fight me with your hands, like a man...
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 08, 2011, 10:27:41 am
I don't like that one can just easily kill someone from a distance with a gun, it's cowardly, it's stupid.  Knowing how to use your gun should be mandatory and there should be no way around it.  It makes me sad that I train so hard with my kung fu that someone can just pull out a gun and shoot me.  Fight me with your hands, like a man...

You're this guy!   ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-afKCOZZc
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: weithman5 on March 08, 2011, 10:50:53 am
I think proper gun control, use, and marksmanship should be a high school gym class.  (taught by retired marine gunny's)
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: beersk on March 08, 2011, 11:09:20 am
I don't like that one can just easily kill someone from a distance with a gun, it's cowardly, it's stupid.  Knowing how to use your gun should be mandatory and there should be no way around it.  It makes me sad that I train so hard with my kung fu that someone can just pull out a gun and shoot me.  Fight me with your hands, like a man...

You're this guy!   ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-afKCOZZc

Haha, I know, that's what I was thinking about as I was typing my post.  Not fair!
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: denny on March 08, 2011, 11:40:15 am
I think proper gun control, use, and marksmanship should be a high school gym class.  (taught by retired marine gunny's)

Except most high schools don't have gym class any more....
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: nicneufeld on March 08, 2011, 12:18:52 pm
I don't like that one can just easily kill someone from a distance with a gun, it's cowardly, it's stupid.  Knowing how to use your gun should be mandatory and there should be no way around it.  It makes me sad that I train so hard with my kung fu that someone can just pull out a gun and shoot me.  Fight me with your hands, like a man...

Another thought on this, bit of a rabbit trail, so forgive me.  I wonder if the great generals of the mid 20th century resented the invention of nuclear weapons in a unique way.  These generals had spent their lives refining tactics and strategy to a point of finesse, and their success on the battlefield was in large part attributed (rightly or wrongly) to their brilliance (think Rommel, Patton, Montgomery...).  Then comes the age of nuclear warfare, which makes the art of conventional warfare a side issue, the minor leagues, something for the major powers to fritter time away with in various hot spots, a diversion to the major event.  Funny thought.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: weithman5 on March 08, 2011, 12:21:16 pm

Except most high schools don't have gym class any more....

oh yeah, i forgot.  they can't even play dodge ball anymore.... :'(
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: MrNate on March 08, 2011, 01:09:34 pm
Speaking as someone who may or may not have observed every single little law on concealed carry in my younger days, I tend to agree with requiring permits and training requirements. To pretend there aren't young, stupid, testosterone-fueled idiots out there who would be ticking time bombs with no training or vetting is idiotic.

I'm a staunch 2nd amendment supporter, a civil disobedience advocate, and a Libertarian to boot, but something about this idea just doesn't sit right with me.
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: weazletoe on March 08, 2011, 02:01:06 pm
I just realized, what is this thread missing?  BFI!   ;D  Break out the tacos and shurikens, boys!

  Maybe at the next AHA rally, he will teach a self defense class, where he can show us that move where you slap you opponent in the kidneys, making them wet themselves, leaving them to embarassed to mug you. None of us would CCW then.  ;D
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: narvin on March 08, 2011, 02:21:17 pm
I just realized, what is this thread missing?  BFI!   ;D  Break out the tacos and shurikens, boys!

  Maybe at the next AHA rally, he will teach a self defense class, where he can show us that move where you slap you opponent in the kidneys, making them wet themselves, leaving them to embarassed to mug you. None of us would CCW then.  ;D

http://www.hulu.com/watch/8721/napoleon-dynamite-rex-kwon-do-volunteer
Title: Re: Soon we can pack concealed
Post by: Slowbrew on March 08, 2011, 02:50:56 pm

Except most high schools don't have gym class any more....

oh yeah, i forgot.  they can't even play dodge ball anymore.... :'(

Another topic I should just stay quiet on.  My son wishes gym was still required because some days you really need a class where "if you haven't cracked a rib by senior year, you ain't doing it right".

Paul