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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: JKL on March 07, 2011, 06:50:43 PM

Title: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: JKL on March 07, 2011, 06:50:43 PM
I went into my LHBS last Saturday to make sure they had all the ingredient for my upcoming lagers.  Long story short, I showed one of the employees my list of ingredients for my O-fest recipe that I put a pound of home-toasted 2-row in, and Jamil's Schwarzbier recipe that calls for chocolate and crystal malts and tells me "You can't do that!" because stylistically it's wrong to put American w/ German ingredients in German beers.   :o  Needless to say, I was shocked.  I told him I thought that freedom was what this hobby was all about.  He goes on to say that it's ok for an amateur but If I were going to go "Pro" (Which I never will) I couldn't use these recipes.  I didn't question him about that remark but it begs the question.  Is he right on any level?  Do Breweries have to stay within a style / ingredient guidelines?
-J.K.L.   
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: euge on March 07, 2011, 06:54:11 PM
Tell him to STFU and let you spend your coin how you like it.

To answer the question is: no they don't.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Kaiser on March 07, 2011, 06:54:12 PM
WTF.

It's totally up to you what you want to brew. I agree. And even if you go Pro, it doesn't matter.

Kai
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tschmidlin on March 07, 2011, 06:55:48 PM
Of course they don't, they can use whatever ingredients they like and call the beer whatever they want.  If it sells, it sells.  There are no style rules they need to follow.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: majorvices on March 07, 2011, 07:01:13 PM
As long as you pitch enough yeast and have proper control over your fermentation temps you should be free to do anything you want.  :D
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: majorvices on March 07, 2011, 07:09:06 PM
Next time you go in there and he gives you crap about it ask him if beers styles are all set and stone and essentially "dead" of is it still evolving? How would we ever get a style like an American IPA or even a Belgian Tripel if we brewed with the exact same ingredients and techniques as someone two thousand miles away?
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dbeechum on March 07, 2011, 07:16:18 PM
*sigh* I hate that sort of Homebrew shop employee. They really do a great job of ruining the hobby for so many people.

It's almost always the guy who's the "frustrated expert" type. Smart, but underachieving. For those hours they're at the shop though they can sound and feel like they're in the Royal Society and the customer a mere dumb petitioner. Even worse is the sort of aggressively volunteered "you're stupid" sort of advice that occurs with a regular basis.

The local shop employees can be a force for education and delight or a force for horrific soul crushing. The trick is to find the former and not the latter.

I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said "... I drank what?"
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Mark G on March 07, 2011, 07:18:27 PM
Good thing pro brewers don't listen to buffoons like this.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tschmidlin on March 07, 2011, 07:25:34 PM
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said "... I drank what?"
What about that time you got caught naked with a bowl of jello?
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: bluesman on March 07, 2011, 07:36:11 PM
I definitely wouldn't subject myself to a LHBS employee nor any other business employee to that type of treatment. I would complain to the store owner and if that didn't work I would probably take my business elsewhere.

That's BS.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: a10t2 on March 07, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
Assuming you have an alternative, I'd take my business elsewhere and make sure his boss knows why.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to pull a pint of dry-hopped Helles to console myself over the fact that I'm apparently not a pro brewer.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Lynux on March 07, 2011, 08:14:47 PM
Sorry, but that guy is a turd.  The best part about this hobby is experimentation and finding those ingredients/processes that make the best beer for YOUR taste.  Even in competitions beers win style categories using some non traditional ingredients.  I would have probably gotten into a bit of an argument at that store... ;)
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dbeechum on March 07, 2011, 08:28:42 PM
What about that time you got caught naked with a bowl of jello?

Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: maxieboy on March 07, 2011, 08:30:23 PM
Tell him to STFU and let you spend your coin how you like it.

This. I'd also let him know that when I want his opinion, I'll give it to him.  8)
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tonyp on March 07, 2011, 08:35:23 PM
What about that time you got caught naked with a bowl of jello?

Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?

You are chris knight, arent you? I hope, so I'm wearing his underwear.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tschmidlin on March 07, 2011, 08:47:36 PM
What about that time you got caught naked with a bowl of jello?

Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?

You are chris knight, arent you? I hope, so I'm wearing his underwear.
Did you want to borrow my pajamas?
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dbeechum on March 07, 2011, 08:57:55 PM
Did you want to borrow my pajamas?

:) Ok, ok.. as much as I hate to admit that Chris Knight and company were an early primary motivating factor for me to attend the post-secondary institution that I did.. we've sufficiently derailed the OP's thread about sucky LBHS employees.

Back to the topic at hand - there will always be the guy with a little power and little knowledge who will try and keep you in line. There will always be the staunch traditionalist who attempts to keep things "right" (and look at the Death of German Brewing topic in the Pub for how well that plays out).

The real key for anyone is to figure out if the person holding up a flashing "don't" sign is a tinpot dictactor, an amateur martinet using their authority to stand in your way or if they're someone experienced trying to warn you "yeah, I've done the whole Smoked Beer made from nothing but Peated Malt, don't". Fortunately, the tonal difference is usually enough. :)
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: bluesman on March 07, 2011, 09:04:03 PM
The real key for anyone is to figure out if the person holding up a flashing "don't" sign is a tinpot dictactor, an amateur martinet using their authority to stand in your way or if they're someone experienced trying to warn you "yeah, I've done the whole Smoked Beer made from nothing but Peated Malt, don't". Fortunately, the tonal difference is usually enough. :)

I agree.

Although a real nazi attitude will often times make you forget about reasoning and you'll fall off the deep end. As you mentioned the tone and body language is usually the key factor.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: oscarvan on March 07, 2011, 09:37:17 PM
Jut say (In your best Cheech and Chong impersonation) :"Style? Yeah, I got Style......FREESTYLE MAN! My friends dig my beer....that's MY style maaaaan.... Now, you gonna get my gocery list together or I gotta sing it out loud to you?"
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 07, 2011, 09:40:48 PM
... "You can't do that!" because stylistically it's wrong to put American w/ German ingredients in German beers.   :o  ...  He goes on to say that it's ok for an amateur but If I were going to go "Pro" ...

I would have questioned him. Something along the lines of, "Show me the brewer rule book you are
quoting from. I didn't know that brewing was a strictly regimented process that squashes dreams of
ingenuity and adaptation."

And if he had quoted BJCP guidelines, I would have said "Judging not brewing guidelines."

Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Norm! on March 07, 2011, 09:54:14 PM
I wonder if he (the LHBS employee) was using "sarcasm"? just a thought..knowing that all people generally try to be good........
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tomsawyer on March 07, 2011, 10:15:13 PM
Of course a style Nazi would want you to brew with only German ingredients for purity's sake.

I do subscribe to the notion that there are subtle differences in malt from different countries (eg, German vs Belgian pils), and in some cases this might be the difference between a good beer and a great beer.   That said, its a free country and I'm not suggesting it is a necessity to create a great beer with only country-specific ingredients.  Toasting your own malt is an interesting way to put your own mark on a beer, I'll have to try that.

Seig heil!
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: JKL on March 07, 2011, 10:53:02 PM
I wonder if he (the LHBS employee) was using "sarcasm"? just a thought..knowing that all people generally try to be good........

I assure you he wasn't being sarcastic.  As for going somewhere else, It's the only store in the city.  I actually use the net more than my LHBS.  That being said, I like the owner he's a really great guy.  I'm gonna go back on Fri to get my yeast and I hope he's there.  I actually hope his employee is there as well and questions me again because I want to raise a lil' hell.

Thanks for all the comments guys, funny stuff! 
-J.K.L.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dbeechum on March 07, 2011, 10:55:59 PM
If the owner is there, make sure to talk to him. It's important to stamp that behavior out because it doesn't help him and it doesn't help the hobby.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: gordonstrong on March 07, 2011, 11:41:18 PM
Tell him to STFU and let you spend your coin how you like it.

+1. First blending, now this response. Euge is trying to make my Christmas list...
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: quest4watneys on March 08, 2011, 12:44:08 AM
@JKL. Style Nazi, that's great! NO BREW FOR YOU!!!
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 08, 2011, 12:59:58 AM
Anyone who said not to do a 100% peated malt beer would be a wise person.  A very wise person would say 0%. 

That is my viewpoint, and I am sticking to it!

Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: tubercle on March 08, 2011, 04:29:54 AM
 You have to lower yourself and operate at his level.
 
 Take him a recipe of a pale beer, just some base malt and maybe one specialty grain and one type of hops.

 When he fills the grain bill ask for a yeast recommendation and stare him in the eye without blinking.

 When he ask what type of yeast then say "the kind for this recipe, you're the expert and I trust your judgment". <don't blink>

 If he recommends an ale yeast, say "but this is an lager recipe" <don't blink>.

 If he recommends a lager yeast...well you know what to do by now.

 Then say "Man, I'm disappointed, I thought you knew all about the proper styles but now I've lost confidence. I'll make my own decisions from now own".

 It's called coming off the top rope. Slapping someone with out actually touching them.

 Tubercleize the man.

 
 

 
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Bret on March 08, 2011, 04:42:06 AM
Funny stuff T. 
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: brewmasternpb on March 08, 2011, 05:17:26 AM
It's funny that he said that you "couldn't go pro" with a recipe like that.  What a load of crap.  I can think of some of my favorite beers that don't exactly fit into a stlye.  Styles are formed because of a beers popularity, not the other way around.  Where does Arrogant Bastard fit into style guidelines?  I'm sure homebrewers were making double IPA's before there was a substyle for that.  Black IPA's?  C'mon!
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: punatic on March 08, 2011, 06:59:57 AM
True freedom comes when you reach the point where you no longer need anyone's approval for anything.  Your self image/self esteem is not subject to others' opinions.

The next time you go to buy ingredients just hand him the grain bill and ask that it be filled.  

"No opinions needed, thank you very much."
 
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: pinnah on March 08, 2011, 01:06:02 PM
True freedom comes when you reach the point where you no longer need anyone's approval for anything.

This is a really great point.


It is a shame that this sounds so much better:
Tell him to STFU and let you spend your coin how you like it.

 ;D
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: punatic on March 08, 2011, 01:48:38 PM
We have a saying here, "No talk stink or bimbye you get lockjaw."
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: johnf on March 08, 2011, 03:24:01 PM
While not much of an authenticity freak I'm not sure I could bring myself to use adjuncts in a German lager as JZ's recipe calls for but IIRC, EJ Phair brewed that recipe and won a GABF medal with it so you certainly could go pro with it.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dixonmike20 on October 08, 2014, 07:18:43 PM
Hell, there A LOT of commercial craft beers that are technically out of style.

People like him can take a long walk on a short pier.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: jeffy on October 08, 2014, 11:06:17 PM
Wow.  That thread was so old, Carl had the second to last  post.
Do you think he's happy on the distilling forums?
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: dixonmike20 on October 09, 2014, 12:48:57 AM
Ha! I just typed away and realized how old it was after posting. I'm a little sleep deprived today.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 09, 2014, 01:45:35 AM
Wow.  That thread was so old, Carl had the second to last  post.
Do you think he's happy on the distilling forums?
Probably. If he wasn't he would be back on here.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: punatic on October 09, 2014, 09:51:11 AM
Wow.  That thread was so old, Carl had the second to last  post.
Do you think he's happy on the distilling forums?

You betchum Red Ryder!  He is. 
And, as it happens, he is running a spirit run under a full moon tonight as he writes this - a mead brandy (star fruit/lehua honey melomel) on a four plate bubble cap still.

:) Ok, ok.. as much as I hate to admit that Chris Knight and company were an early primary motivating factor for me to attend the post-secondary institution that I did..

It was Jordan that got my intellectual juices going...  ;)
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 09, 2014, 12:20:12 PM
Wow.  That thread was so old, Carl had the second to last  post.
Do you think he's happy on the distilling forums?

You betchum Red Ryder!  He is. 
And, as it happens, he is running a spirit run under a full moon tonight as he writes this - a mead brandy (star fruit/lehua honey melomel) on a four plate bubble cap still.

:) Ok, ok.. as much as I hate to admit that Chris Knight and company were an early primary motivating factor for me to attend the post-secondary institution that I did..

It was Jordan that got my intellectual juices going...  ;)

And there he is!
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: mabrungard on October 09, 2014, 12:44:42 PM
Hell, there A LOT of commercial craft beers that are technically out of style.

People like him can take a long walk on a short pier.

Mike and Jeff,

This bears directly on the point I made for the 2014 BJCP guideline update. There are plenty of beers that are just a little off in some manner, from the stipulation of the style...but they are still great beers. That is the problem with the style guidelines as they sit now, there isn't an allowance for minor variation or stretching of the styles. Anything that can't conform to a style, has to be placed into the "Specialty" category. That doesn't make sense to me.

Mark Stober presented an idea to me a few years ago. Each style category should include a 'Specialty' subcategory so that beers that are just a little off from conforming to a subcategory guideline can still be judged with similar beers in that category. I like this approach much better than having a single 'Specialty' category that can see any sort of unique or non-conforming beer. That cornucopia of beers can make it tough to judge.

Now, I 'm not saying that the 'Specialty' category should go away. Because there will be beers that are not like any other styles and they will need a place to go. What I'm advocating is a 'Specialty' subcategory in each style category that can then accommodate beers that are pushing the boundaries of a style, but are still recognizable as falling in or around the style. 
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: 69franx on October 09, 2014, 01:06:29 PM
Even without having entered any competitions, that makes the most sense to me Martin.


Sent from Franx Brew Works using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: reverseapachemaster on October 11, 2014, 06:05:32 PM
I'm guessing he's not much of a fan of grodziskie.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: klickitat jim on October 12, 2014, 12:19:50 AM
Even without having entered any competitions, that makes the most sense to me Martin.


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Supposing a large competition and a butt load of judges, I agree. So imagine you have 600 beers and 100 judges. Supposing each bracket had an even amount of entries. You and your buddy are judging 12 beers. 6 are IPA, 6 are specialty IPA. Cool. But it's not going to work out that way. Out of the 600 probably 20 are specialty. I understand the reasoning for putting those all in one. Besides, do you want to have your stellar classic IPA going head to head with a specialty IPA? Maybe, maybe not.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Werks21 on October 12, 2014, 03:44:44 AM
Even without having entered any competitions, that makes the most sense to me Martin.


Sent from Franx Brew Works using Tapatalk

Supposing a large competition and a butt load of judges, I agree. So imagine you have 600 beers and 100 judges. Supposing each bracket had an even amount of entries. You and your buddy are judging 12 beers. 6 are IPA, 6 are specialty IPA. Cool. But it's not going to work out that way. Out of the 600 probably 20 are specialty. I understand the reasoning for putting those all in one. Besides, do you want to have your stellar classic IPA going head to head with a specialty IPA? Maybe, maybe not.

Good point. Though I have not entered a comp yet my first thought is a specialty IPA vs a per style IPA is not a good match up. Apples to apples is the way it should be but perhaps if there were specialty categories for each style there would be more entries in those new categories. All, or most of us love to experiment push the lines. Knowing there is a place for our own "perversion" of a style might lead us to more entries just outside of style. The hobby is growing to the point where a specialty for each style could or maybe should be a reality. I'm sure that there is a argument to be made to the contrary, but a specialty for each doesn't seem like a bad idea at face value as long as they are judged only among same category specialties.
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on October 13, 2014, 08:22:18 PM
give him two samples of beer and ask him to pick the one that is made with region specific malts  :P
Title: Re: My LHBS employs a style nazi
Post by: klickitat jim on October 13, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
Would that make it specialty? Not in my opinion.