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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: blatz on December 09, 2009, 03:03:41 PM

Title: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 09, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
On Monday, I'm brewing my partigyle ABW/ESB.  What I'd planned on doing was using all first runnings for the BW, and using the sparge (plus an extra 2lbs of MO and 1/2lb of crystal 60) for the ESB.

Was discussing this with a brewclub friend, and he mentioned partitioning the main mash, rather than doing all first/all second.

So assuming an 8.0gal boil volume for each, perhaps take 2.5gal from the first runnings for the small beer, and 5.5gal of the first runnings for the ABW, then vice versa with the sparge/second runnings. 

I've had a first runnings only ABW before and it is insane, but I also want to avoid having a 'thin' 'lifeless' small beer.

Any opinions/thoughts?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: ndcube on December 09, 2009, 03:46:01 PM
If you know that ALL first runnings makes an insane BW then I would probably stick with that if it were me and experiment a little with the smaller beer.  Maybe do as you said or collect more runnings and boil down a little.? (Not gonna bring up caramelization).
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: beerocd on December 09, 2009, 04:07:21 PM
The EXTRA grain, would you have that sitting in a separate pot to save time and combine just prior to second sparge - or how exactly does that work?

Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 09, 2009, 04:09:26 PM
The EXTRA grain, would you have that sitting in a separate pot to save time and combine just prior to second sparge - or how exactly does that work?



if I do it that way, the "extra" grain will be thrown into the mash after the first runnings are run out.  then add the sparge water, and hold for 45min or so, then run out into the second kettle for the small beer.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: tom on December 09, 2009, 08:07:43 PM
Have you done a parti-gyle before? I love them for big beers. I just use the first runnings for the big beer and the second runnings for the other. My main interest is in the big beer, so the 2nd beer is just gravy.

If you haven't done a parti-gyle before I would simplify it as much as possible.

If you batch sparge, start checking the gravity of the first runnings and second runnings vs the mash ratio for future use in parti-gyles. Thicker mashes will give you higher o.g., but lower efficiency. For example, mashing at 1.25 qt will get you first runnings wort gravity in the 1.090's, but you will only get 0.75 qt/lb because the grain absorbs ~ 0.5 qt/lb. There was a good chart in one of this summer's zymurgies which had the gravity of the first runnings vs mash ratio (and % efficiency). You can plug them into a homebrew computer program to get your total amount of grain necessary.

For the second batch I just sparge with the same volume as the first runnings and I usually get about half the gravity of the first. If you have a 2nd boil kettle you can have your 2nd beer boiling within 15 minutes of the big beer.

Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 09, 2009, 08:16:22 PM
thanks for the advice tom - this will be my first gyle - I have done an all first runnings BW before and the richness of the malt is jawdropping.

I plan on doing exactly as you suggest and see where the gravity for the first runnings is and then make a judgement call.  Reason being, I don't necessarily want my BW to be over 1.100 - so if its coming out 1.090 preboil, I might do a little mixing to get it down to mid 70s and shoot to end up there.

I borrowed a second BK from a friend so I'm all set.

And right after I get these two in the fermentor, I'll be making my Old Ale.  Don't know if I'll p-g that one too though, that might break my back for the day, but I think I can handle the three.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: ndcube on December 09, 2009, 08:26:39 PM
If you don't have a second BK do you just leave the grains in the tun and add water/sparge after the first boil is done?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: hamiltont on December 09, 2009, 08:55:44 PM
If you don't have a second BK do you just leave the grains in the tun and add water/sparge after the first boil is done?
Not exactly, at least how I've done it in the past.  I'll get the first boil going & then add the strike water for the second mash (which you're calling a sparge) and mash it until the 1st boil is done & the BK is free.  Some folks have left the hops in the BK from the first boil and used them for the second boil.  I've never tried that and would be concerned about the IBU's it would contribute.  I just like to have more control I guess??
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: ndcube on December 09, 2009, 08:59:27 PM
If you don't have a second BK do you just leave the grains in the tun and add water/sparge after the first boil is done?
Not exactly, at least how I've done it in the past.  I'll get the first boil going & then add the strike water for the second mash (which you're calling a sparge) and mash it until the 1st boil is done & the BK is free.  Some folks have left the hops in the BK from the first boil and used them for the second boil.  I've never tried that and would be concerned about the IBU's it would contribute.  I just like to have more control I guess??

Why does it need to be re-mashed?  Isn't the sugar already there?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: hamiltont on December 09, 2009, 09:10:38 PM
If you don't have a second BK do you just leave the grains in the tun and add water/sparge after the first boil is done?
Not exactly, at least how I've done it in the past.  I'll get the first boil going & then add the strike water for the second mash (which you're calling a sparge) and mash it until the 1st boil is done & the BK is free.  Some folks have left the hops in the BK from the first boil and used them for the second boil.  I've never tried that and would be concerned about the IBU's it would contribute.  I just like to have more control I guess??

Why does it need to be re-mashed?  Isn't the sugar already there?
Don't know, that's just how I've always done it. Sometimes I'll cap the mash with more grain and definitely want to mash them.

I should add.  I only have one high output burner to get water up to temp quickly so while the 1st mash is mashing I heat the 2nd mash's water.  Once the 1st mash is run off into my BK & that boil is going I can't use it to heat the water for the 2nd mash.  Since I usually do a 1/3-2/3 partigyle the 2nd runnings are about 12 gallons.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: tom on December 10, 2009, 01:30:10 AM
thanks for the advice tom - this will be my first gyle - I have done an all first runnings BW before and the richness of the malt is jawdropping.

I plan on doing exactly as you suggest and see where the gravity for the first runnings is and then make a judgement call.  Reason being, I don't necessarily want my BW to be over 1.100 - so if its coming out 1.090 preboil, I might do a little mixing to get it down to mid 70s and shoot to end up there.

I borrowed a second BK from a friend so I'm all set.

And right after I get these two in the fermentor, I'll be making my Old Ale.  Don't know if I'll p-g that one too though, that might break my back for the day, but I think I can handle the three.
If you want a lower pre-boil gravity you can mash a little thinner. Here are some numbers from Steve Holle's article in the August Zymurgy.
Mash at 1.14 qt/lb, 1st runnings are 24degPlato and efficiency is 45%. Mash at 1.28 qt/lb and 1st runnings are 22 degP and efficiency is 48%. Mash at 1.54 qt/lb, 1st runnings are 19degP and efficiency is 53%.  For my Wee Heavies I mash at 1.7 qt/lb because I boil off more.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: stout_fan on December 10, 2009, 02:55:36 PM
I've gone to partigyle brewing on my big beers 1.070+ and have done it a number of ways.
As previously stated, by main objective is the first beer. I more or less consider the second runnings a bonus.
Several variations I've done.

One fresh & tun hopped IIPA had the second runnings turned into a hoppy red. I pulverized some roast barley in a coffee grinder (cheap blade type not my good Maestro) and stirred it into the mash while the first runnings were boiling. I use a 5 gal hop bag and just reused the hops, pitching in more for aroma. SRM primary 4 ish, the seconds 15 ish.

Last year's Samiclaus clone (thanks Drew) seconds were altered with a pumpkin spice. I actually set the proper IBUs for the recipe. It turned out wonderful.

This year's Samiclaus seconds were modified with English hops, and I only had US-05 yeast. I also had to throw in some Magnum for bittering. I called it a Mongrel ESB. That was 12 gal of 1.076 wort. We ran out of time. There was a third beer in there. Perhaps next year a mild third.
The guy I brew with refers to this as my Cheap Bastard Series since I hate throwing away sugar. I just call it almost free beer.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: akr71 on December 10, 2009, 03:33:46 PM
How do mash temps affect the partigyle?

For example, I want to partigyle my oatmeal stout - obviously I want it full-bodied, so the mash temp will a touch higher.  The second runnings I plan to make an English Brown Ale (probably a Southern Brown or a Mild) and want it light to medium bodied.  If I aim for 150F for the second mash, am I going to get a more fermentable wort?  Does it even make a difference (are the startches already converted)?

Do you think I should add corn sugar to ensure the second runnings finish dryer?  Don't add anything and see how it turns out (and tinker next time around)?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 10, 2009, 03:37:39 PM
akr71

from what I understand, you aren't going to have a problem with the small beer being light to medium bodied - they can be "thin" as many folks have described.

if you aren't topping off, there is no need to "mash" the second beer - you can just run the sparge, just like you would do in a batch sparge, just into a second kettle.   however, if you want to top off the second beer with additional base malt or specialty grains, you may want to let it sit - especially if they are grains that need to be mashed.

cheers!
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: Kaiser on December 10, 2009, 04:52:00 PM
There was a good chart in one of this summer's zymurgies which had the gravity of the first runnings vs mash ratio (and % efficiency). You can plug them into a homebrew computer program to get your total amount of grain necessary.

that table was calculated incorrectly. For one the efficiency was based on total grain weight and not extract potential. Secondly it assumed an incorrect grain absorption.

Kai
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: tom on December 10, 2009, 05:13:44 PM
Thanks Kai. I couldn't find the info on your site. Do you have a link?
Tom
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: Kaiser on December 10, 2009, 05:27:27 PM
There was a good chart in one of this summer's zymurgies which had the gravity of the first runnings vs mash ratio (and % efficiency). You can plug them into a homebrew computer program to get your total amount of grain necessary.

that table was calculated incorrectly. For one the efficiency was based on total grain weight and not extract potential. Secondly it assumed an incorrect grain absorption.


Here is a tread that I started about that article: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/zymurgys-geeks-article-hitting-your-target-gravity-125939/
It also contains a corrected table. What you are looking for is the OBY (overall brewhouse yield) column under "w/ considering wort volume increase"

I have been thinking about brewing a imperial Pilsner as batch #100. My plan is to use only the first runnings for that beer. Here is how I plan to go about figuring out how much grain to use:

To get to 1.100 and 15% boil-off I'll need a pre-boil of about 1.085. Using this table and assumoing that I'll get ~100% connversion in the mash:

(http://braukaiser.com/wiki/images/3/3c/First_wort_gravity.gif)
(http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuing_conversion_efficiency)

I need a mash thickness of about 3 l/kg or 1.44 qt/lb.

To end up with 5 gal post boil I'll need 5.9 gal pre-boil. I expect the grain absorption to be 0.12 gal/lb. After putting all this in a spreadsheet and trying a few grain bill sizes I found that I need about 24-25lb of grain and 8.6 gal of strike water. That's quite a bit and I'll have to find a large enough mash tun for that.

An Other option is to mash thicker. But I may have problems hitting the 100% coversion with a thick mash which means that I may need more grain if I can't make up for that loss in efficiency by sparging more efficiently.

I've never made a beer that big and I don't want to boil down a lot of wort to hit the targeted 1.100 since it should become a light beer.

Kai
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: Kaiser on December 10, 2009, 05:33:41 PM
Thanks Kai. I couldn't find the info on your site. Do you have a link?

All the theory is there but nothing that ties it all together. But I think it would make a really useful article. The topic would be "how to figure out partygyle sparging". One point of interest would be how to determine a sweet spot where you get the target gravity and volume you want with the best efficiency.

Kai
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: akr71 on December 10, 2009, 05:55:37 PM
akr71

from what I understand, you aren't going to have a problem with the small beer being light to medium bodied - they can be "thin" as many folks have described.

if you aren't topping off, there is no need to "mash" the second beer - you can just run the sparge, just like you would do in a batch sparge, just into a second kettle.   however, if you want to top off the second beer with additional base malt or specialty grains, you may want to let it sit - especially if they are grains that need to be mashed.

cheers!
Thanks blatz!  I think I may have to top up for the small beer - maybe the best bet would be to have some malt on hand and if the OG of the big beer is higher than expected, don't worry about the extra malt for the second beer and do a little mixing to get the preboil gravities I'm aiming for.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: coypoo on December 11, 2009, 02:57:13 AM
For that chart w/ the mash thickness and resulting gravity, how much grain is that for? Is that assuming you have enough grain in the mash tun to reach that target SG?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: Kaiser on December 11, 2009, 02:20:11 PM
For that chart w/ the mash thickness and resulting gravity, how much grain is that for? Is that assuming you have enough grain in the mash tun to reach that target SG?

The table gives mash thicknesses which are independent of the actual grain weight. To get the grain weight you have to play around with the desired SG and preboil volume. To calculate the amount of water needed you'll have to add the absorption of wort by the grain. That is usually around 0.12 gal/lb.

Kai
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: stout_fan on December 11, 2009, 03:27:21 PM
Excellent work Kai.
I was thinking about making a chart like this.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 11, 2009, 03:31:33 PM
mucho thanks - looks like if I target 1.5 qt/lb I'll be right where I want to be.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 15, 2009, 03:18:20 PM
well, I did this (and an Old Ale) yesterday and had a great time, but I doubt I'll be doing a partigyle and another batch in one day - I am beat today.

anyhow, I nailed the Barleywine - 1.104-6 actually, which was well over what I'd wanted (1.095ish) but that is okay.  ~100 IBUs, it will be yummy I'm sure, just will put you under the table in one pint.  Weird, b/c when I tested the first running as I was vorlaufing, I got 1.080 (just under 20 brix) which corresponds to kai's chart, but there's no way I boiled off enough in 90 minutes to get up to 1.104.

for the ESB, the second runnings tested ~1.035, so I added a 1/2lb of c-60, 1/4lb victory, 2lbs of basemalt (MO) and a lb of carapils (to counteract the 'thinness').  I miscalculated on my water addition temp, so I ended up 'mashing' for 25 min at 147, but the main mash was 154 so I expect it to be 'okay'.  I ended up 1.052 which was right where I wanted to be - the wort tasted very yummy.

The one thing that really puzzled me was the amount of protein silt that I had to vorlauf out with the second runnings.  Also, there was an absolute ton of cold break for the small beer.  All in, I think I liked doing the big beer this way - just gotta get a better handle of efficiencies/ratio to end up on the right gravity.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: tom on December 15, 2009, 05:15:36 PM
It looks about right to me: post-boil 5 gallons * 104 pts/gal = 520 pts
pre-boil 520 pts = X gallons * 80 pts/gal, 520 pts/80 pts/gal = 6.5 gallons pre-boil
Sound about right?
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: blatz on December 15, 2009, 05:20:16 PM
actually, yeah, its about dead on.  I guess I am just used to my smaller beers where I know I will "gain" 12-15 points over the boil, but being that this is so much denser, the 'gain' is much larger. duh!

I ended up with just shy of 6g in the fermentor, and I started with an 8g boil, and that math works out almost perfectly...especially if you use 1.106 as the OG.
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: tom on December 15, 2009, 07:43:55 PM
Remember that if you want to brew 10 (or 12) gallons, your boil-off percentage will drop by 50% so you won't get as much increase in gravity through the boil.
Brew on
Title: Re: Partigyle - split the mash or all first for the main, all second for the small?
Post by: ndcube on December 16, 2009, 12:34:12 AM
I can't figure why Beersmith goes by percentage.  I use a gallons per hour figure that comes pretty darn close depending on the weather.