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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 02:49:46 PM

Title: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 02:49:46 PM
I've got everything together for my first all grain batch.  Gonna do a batch sparge on a 5 gal batch.  Just wondering how much time this takes or should take.  I expect to be 50% longer since it's my first attempt but I'm a bit nervous about getting started.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't grind grain where you brew.  Is this true?  I can't see how it would matter because we try so hard to keep bacteria etc out of the carboy anyway.  I don't have a lot of extra room.

I'll take some pictures as I go if you're interested.
Wish me luck.
Graham
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gordonstrong on March 11, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
Probably 5 or 6 hours, depending on how fast you can bring things to a boil.

Clean and sanitize your carboy and cover it with foil, plastic wrap, or a stopper.   Doesn't matter where you crush your grain.  Whatever is easiest for your overall process. You have to move it around.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: saintpierre on March 11, 2011, 03:08:36 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but, I have heard not to crush grain where you ferment.  However, I don't see it as a issue if you sanitize your carboy and cover as Gordon says. I wouldn't crush grain near an open fermenter thought...
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 11, 2011, 03:41:11 PM
The concern is due to the lactobacillus that are on the grain husk.  Dust from the grinding operation can cause problems in production breweries.  Lots of dust (well, in some), many batches of beer in various states of fermentation in the brewhouse.  

I grind the grain in the garage, and I brew in the garage.  Most of the dust comes from the dough in at the mash tun.  The dust has settled by the end of the boil, it seems.   No problems.  I am with Gordon on this, nothing to get excited about on the homebrewing level.

Edit - as far as time goes, yesterday's 10 gallon batch was 5 hours, 10 min.   1.044 Best Bitter that was batch sparged, one hour boil.   Could have done a coiuple of things faster, though.

One the other end was the Bo-Pils that had a doiuble decoction and 2 hour+ boil, and was cooled down to 40F to pitch.  That was a 10.5 hour day.  I will do that again if the beer turns out good.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Slowbrew on March 11, 2011, 05:23:22 PM
If I'm brewing just one beer it takes between 4.5 and 6 hours.  If I'm doing 2 in one session it will take a bit over 7 hours.  Setup and cleaning up are about the same.

+1 on the comments about where to grind the grain.

Paul
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: denny on March 11, 2011, 05:52:19 PM
For me, a normal single infusion brew takes 4.5-5 hours from running the mash water til finishing the cleanup.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 06:25:18 PM
Thanks everyone.  Grain is ground and is mashing right now.  Probably screwed it up already.  I have two thermometers.  One is very slow to come to temperature but I think it's the more accurate of the two.  I heated my water and added it but I think it was too hot.  Probably close to 180 when I added it.  I had to add 6 cups of cold water to bring it down closer to the 154 temp I was shooting for.  What are the ramifications of having it too hot for a few minutes?  Would I have killed all my enzymes in that short a time?  It was probably about 170 before I added the water.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: euge on March 11, 2011, 06:35:29 PM
Hmmm. I want to say "maybe" and "depends". You'll know after primary fermentation...

I grind my grain in the garage where my main brewery is. The flour dust has settled long before it's a potential problem. That being said I don't let grain get near my fermenters.

Doing 12 gallon batches without any prep at all takes anywhere from 7 to 12 hours depending on my mood, what I'm brewing and how much I might drink during the session. Usually I won't touch a drop until the wort is in the BK.

My last 2.5 gallon AG test batch took about 3 hours. I mashed longer than one hour, but cut my boil to 45 minutes after the break, when I added my bittering charge.

And back to the grinding grain. I'm beginning to have a beef with my Barley Crusher. It took me longer to crush 4# of 2-row by hand than to do 20# with a drill. But that's another thread...
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: bluesman on March 11, 2011, 06:41:05 PM
My brew day averages between 6-8 hours from start to finish including prep time and cleanup. I take my time (safety first) and I'm fairly organized so it's pretty methodical for me. There are gaps of time between mashing and boiling that can be used for various other tasks or just relaxing.

I grind and brew together in my garage and don't see it as a concern. Just be wary of any potential contamination issues and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 06:50:33 PM
Thanks.  Any comments on my temperature issue?  That's a new thing to be worried about.  And I checked the mash pH.  Something else to be worried about.  Who came up with that "Relax, don't worry....." phrase?  I'm having trouble following that advice.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: akr71 on March 11, 2011, 07:23:38 PM
Thanks.  Any comments on my temperature issue?  That's a new thing to be worried about.  And I checked the mash pH.  Something else to be worried about.  Who came up with that "Relax, don't worry....." phrase?  I'm having trouble following that advice.


That's Charlie Papazian - its great advice, it just takes a few batches to loosen up a little.  As far as your temps go - if you got the cold water in there quickly, you should be ok.  Maybe let the mash sit a while longer if you are really concerned.  I doubt you would have denatured all the enzymes that quickly.  Time will tell though...
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: tschmidlin on March 11, 2011, 08:05:15 PM
Don't grind a lot of grain in an enclosed space near an open flame.

Re: your temp, it's not ideal but it should be fine.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Slowbrew on March 11, 2011, 08:06:35 PM
Thanks.  Any comments on my temperature issue?  That's a new thing to be worried about.  And I checked the mash pH.  Something else to be worried about.  Who came up with that "Relax, don't worry....." phrase?  I'm having trouble following that advice.


If it was only for a few minutes then I'm assuming your going to do fine.  

Denaturing enzymes is not an instantaneous event.  It occurs over time and during that time you were cooling it down.  Next time you'll know to shave a few (3 or 4) degrees off your mash in water temp.  As Mrs. Ford in Third grade used to say "mistakes are how we learn" just before the eraser caught you in the back of the head.   ;D

Paul
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: denny on March 11, 2011, 08:07:16 PM
What are the ramifications of having it too hot for a few minutes?  Would I have killed all my enzymes in that short a time?  It was probably about 170 before I added the water.


If it was just a few minutes, I'd say little damage was done.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 08:21:30 PM
Whew...Thanks everyone.  Especially Euge for talking me off the ledge  :)

It is sparging right now.  I'll have to post a shot of the fitting that my friend made me (basically he machined a fitting that fits a tap on the outside of the coleman extreme and adapts to fit the hose on the inside.  All one piece bronze with a built in o-ring to ensure no leaks).  It's working amazingly well.  Very quick and easy and thanks to Denny too for all the advice.

Tastes sweet so that's something I guess.  Now just have to boil for an hour.  Wonder what I can screw up during that stage?

Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Slowbrew on March 11, 2011, 08:44:35 PM
From my own list...

Boil over
Forgetting at least one of the hop additions
Did I add the Irish Moss?
Anybody know where the bumblebee (the flying, stinging kind) went?
Running out LP with 30 minutes left
Oh look!  Maple leaves floating in the boil, again.

The list can go on and on.  And every one turned out fine.  8^)

Don't let yourself get too distracted and you'll be fine.

Paul
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 11, 2011, 10:00:49 PM
Well, here's one.  Don't have a wort cooler.

Silly huh?
I had a smaller pot before and I cut down a garbage can and set the pot in the can and ran cold water through the can while stirring the wort intermittently.  Worked very well.  But the new 15 gal pot won't fit. 

Luckily, we got 6 inches of snow last night and it's about 28 degrees outside so I guess I'll just stack snow up around it and let it sit. 
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: bluesman on March 12, 2011, 01:21:45 AM
Well, here's one.  Don't have a wort cooler.

Silly huh?
I had a smaller pot before and I cut down a garbage can and set the pot in the can and ran cold water through the can while stirring the wort intermittently.  Worked very well.  But the new 15 gal pot won't fit. 

Luckily, we got 6 inches of snow last night and it's about 28 degrees outside so I guess I'll just stack snow up around it and let it sit. 

Yes, since you don't have a chiller...I'd let it cool (lid on) in the snow. Just keep packing snow around it from time to time. It should cool down in due time.

This process will make you want to buy a chiller of some sort.  ;)

Good Luck!  :)
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: breslinp on March 12, 2011, 01:45:17 AM
Well, here's one.  Don't have a wort cooler.

Silly huh?
I had a smaller pot before and I cut down a garbage can and set the pot in the can and ran cold water through the can while stirring the wort intermittently.  Worked very well.  But the new 15 gal pot won't fit. 

Luckily, we got 6 inches of snow last night and it's about 28 degrees outside so I guess I'll just stack snow up around it and let it sit. 

Yes, since you don't have a chiller...I'd let it cool (lid on) in the snow. Just keep packing snow around it from time to time. It should cool down in due time.

This process will make you want to buy a chiller of some sort.  ;)

Good Luck!  :)

It will cool faster if you just leave it in the air. Snow is an insulator.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 12, 2011, 03:45:17 AM
Snows melting so it went into a big puddle that is flowing slowly out to the road.  Didn't take that long to cool down.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: oscarvan on March 14, 2011, 07:59:26 AM
Thanks everyone.  Grain is ground and is mashing right now.  Probably screwed it up already.  I have two thermometers.  One is very slow to come to temperature but I think it's the more accurate of the two.  I heated my water and added it but I think it was too hot.  Probably close to 180 when I added it.  I had to add 6 cups of cold water to bring it down closer to the 154 temp I was shooting for.  What are the ramifications of having it too hot for a few minutes?  Would I have killed all my enzymes in that short a time?  It was probably about 170 before I added the water.


Been there done that. Maybe not 180, but definitely 170+ Beer was fine.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 15, 2011, 07:52:47 PM

This process will make you want to buy a chiller of some sort.  ;)

I don't have a way to bend copper tube so with 4 lengths of 1/2 inch pipe and about 36 elbows, I now have a square "coil" for the next batch.  Just have to be sure to wash all the flux off it and I'll be good to go.  And yes, it was lead free solder.  It's not pretty but it should work, perhaps not perfectly but we'll see how it goes and make improvements.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: oscarvan on March 15, 2011, 08:53:47 PM

This process will make you want to buy a chiller of some sort.  ;)

I don't have a way to bend copper tube so with 4 lengths of 1/2 inch pipe and about 36 elbows, I now have a square "coil" for the next batch.  Just have to be sure to wash all the flux off it and I'll be good to go.  And yes, it was lead free solder.  It's not pretty but it should work, perhaps not perfectly but we'll see how it goes and make improvements.

Dude..... pipe benders are cheap.... :o
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: maxieboy on March 15, 2011, 08:57:17 PM
Soft copper...
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: denny on March 15, 2011, 09:01:10 PM
Soft copper...

Yep.  Buy a coil of refrigerator tubing and just expand it.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 15, 2011, 09:14:42 PM
Where were all of you 4 hours ago?

How long should it take to cool a batch?  I boiled a pot of water and mine did the following:

0 min:  212F
5 min: 132F
10 min: 98F
15 min: 92F
20 min: 85F
25 min:  quit 5 minutes ago and opened a beer.

Obviously it cools rapidly at the start and the slows as it gets lower.  Not sure how long it would take to get to 70 degrees, probably 30+ minutes with me stirring frequently.

Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 15, 2011, 09:16:27 PM
Quote from: oscarvan link=topic=6375.msg77411#msg77411 date=1300222427

Dude..... pipe benders are cheap.... :o
[/quote

Sure, maybe on a pilot's salary... ;)  I fly a lot and I assume you get at least 1/2 of my ticket cost.  You're doing all the work, right?
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Mark G on March 15, 2011, 09:54:21 PM
Where were all of you 4 hours ago?

How long should it take to cool a batch?  I boiled a pot of water and mine did the following:

0 min:  212F
5 min: 132F
10 min: 98F
15 min: 92F
20 min: 85F
25 min:  quit 5 minutes ago and opened a beer.

Obviously it cools rapidly at the start and the slows as it gets lower.  Not sure how long it would take to get to 70 degrees, probably 30+ minutes with me stirring frequently.


That's not bad. A lot depends on the temperature of the water going into the chiller. For me, chilling times in the winter are half of what they are in the summer. In winter, my water is below 50. In summer, closer to 70. I started using a pre-chiller in an ice bath to cool the water in the summer, otherwise I'd be waiting forever to reach pitching temps. I really want to see a picture of your creation. Homebrewing sure brings out everyone's inventive side.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: euge on March 16, 2011, 06:58:04 AM
I've noticed the slowdown too but if one switches over to an ice water recirc after about 90 then it's smooth sailing to 65 and beyond. In the spring and summer my water averages around 88F. Basically throw a lot of cold at it and the curve becomes more linear.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: akr71 on March 16, 2011, 01:00:25 PM
I've also noticed that if you reduce the water pressure (partially turn off the tap) when you get to that 'stalling' point around 90F, you can still get the temp down fairly quickly.  I would guess that its because the cold water is in contact with the hot (warm) wort for a longer period, increasing the heat transfer efficiency.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: oscarvan on March 16, 2011, 02:38:13 PM
I fly a lot and I assume you get at least 1/2 of my ticket cost.  You're doing all the work, right?

I wish.... It's not bad, but that would be a lot more. Plus, I'm putting kids through school.... in one side, out the other.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: denny on March 16, 2011, 03:58:07 PM
Where were all of you 4 hours ago?

How long should it take to cool a batch?  I boiled a pot of water and mine did the following:

0 min:  212F
5 min: 132F
10 min: 98F
15 min: 92F
20 min: 85F
25 min:  quit 5 minutes ago and opened a beer.

Obviously it cools rapidly at the start and the slows as it gets lower.  Not sure how long it would take to get to 70 degrees, probably 30+ minutes with me stirring frequently.



It's all about the delta, man.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 16, 2011, 04:01:43 PM
I've also noticed that if you reduce the water pressure (partially turn off the tap) when you get to that 'stalling' point around 90F, you can still get the temp down fairly quickly.  I would guess that its because the cold water is in contact with the hot (warm) wort for a longer period, increasing the heat transfer efficiency.

I believe you are right.  I kept adjusting mine slower and slower by feeling the outlet line.  If it was coming out cold, I figured it wasn't in contact long enough to efficiently transfer the heat.  At the end, I think the tap was barely on.  I will have to try the ice bath that was mentioned.  Our water is pretty cold here year round although in the summer it will get a little warmer.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Will's Swill on March 17, 2011, 12:36:10 AM
This is a common misconception.  For a given setup, you're actually chilling more efficiently (i.e. less time to chill) when you're water is coming out colder, not when it is coming out warmer.  I know, seems backwards.  ??? But if your water is coming out colder then your chiller is colder all along its length and thus is cooling better.  As Denny said, it's all about delta.  I'm guessing you have eight "coils" of 1/2" copper (since you said you need a pipe bender), so something like 25' of copper?  Maybe 54F water this time of year?  If you run your water at, say, 3+ GPM, you can probably chill 5 gallons from 212F to 75F in 10 - 15 minutes without stirring. 

Are you using the kitchen faucet or a hose bib for your coolant water? Whatever you're using, crank it all the way open if you want to reduce chill time.  Reducing flow never helps chilling.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 17, 2011, 01:47:21 AM
Will,that is correct.  Sometimes the efficiency is rated on the amount of water used, and running wide open is not so efficient.  One should not confuse efficiency with the rate of chilling.

I you accelerate slowly and drive slowly, you will have higher fuel ecomony.  An internal combustion engine gets its best efficiency with the thottle wide open.  Sort of the opposite metrics, but the opperating conditions determine fast or cheap.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Will's Swill on March 17, 2011, 04:37:03 AM
We may have to agree to disagree.  Efficiency of an engine can be defined such that "more efficiency" is "uses less fuel" or efficiency = distance traveled/volume fuel consumed.  An internal combustion engine is not at its most efficient when the throttle is wide open, though that is when it generates the most power.  You could perhaps define "more efficiency" as "faster" or efficiency = distance traveled/unit time, but most would call that "speed". ;)

If you're defining "more efficient" as "uses less water" or efficiency = heat removed from wort/volume water used, then the most efficient thing to do would be to let your wort air cool and forget the chiller.  :)  But if you're talking about heat transfer efficiency, which I think both Andy and gmac were, then "more efficient" is defined as "faster cooling" or efficiency = heat removed from wort/unit time (which is really "rate of heat transfer" I suppose).  "Heat transfer efficiency" would really be rate of heat transfer achieved/theoretical maximum, but why bother with the denominator?  But I think the water use definition is equally valid.

Sheesh, that was boring.  I need a homebrew.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 17, 2011, 01:04:39 PM
Efficiency is not always defined as one would think.

I was taught that for an IC engine it is power out(kW)/fuel in(expressed in kW).  Running wide open gives you the best effeciency.  Economy is another thing. Used to have to sit through meetings were the fuel ecomony guys would go over their engine maps, and go over transmission ratios to get operation in the "islands" of max. ecomony.

Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: Will's Swill on March 17, 2011, 01:45:40 PM
I agree.  You're obviously the car expert, but I thought that engines were typically designed to be most efficient (power/fuel) where it would push the vehicle it is designed for at highway speed (say 55 mph)?  As opposed to being most efficient at maximum fuel flow.

To keep this on topic, I certainly hope that beer never becomes a biofuel.  Might push the price of beer up!  At least the cheap megabrews would go first...
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: gmac on March 17, 2011, 03:31:21 PM
It always amazes me how these threads can meander across so many topics.   :D

For what it's worth, I'll run my chiller "wide open" as you all suggest next time.  Hoping to do a batch tomorrow so I'll see what time it takes.  Our tap water is 45 degrees F.
Title: Re: How long does a batch take/Grinding grain.
Post by: zorch on March 18, 2011, 12:00:32 AM
It always amazes me how these threads can meander across so many topics.   :D

For what it's worth, I'll run my chiller "wide open" as you all suggest next time.  Hoping to do a batch tomorrow so I'll see what time it takes.  Our tap water is 45 degrees F.

One word of caution - With my old (since replaced) chiller, if I ran it with my tap wide-open, the increased pressure would cause water to leak out where the tubing was clamped to the copper... right into the cooling wort.

Just something to keep in mind.