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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: weazletoe on March 14, 2011, 06:50:33 PM

Title: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 14, 2011, 06:50:33 PM
  Went to the local brewery Saturday night to hear a band, who was awesome BTW. The Wailing O'Sheas. And have a few pints. They have a very nice IPA there, called Googg. Not the best I've had, but very drinkable, and with a couple tweaks, something I would not mind having on tap.
  I asked the the brewess for the recipe, and she told me to go scratch! I've asked several brewers, home and pro for recipes, and they were more than happy to share them. Even Sierra Neveda, regarding their ESB. They were very willing to help me. Even had a thread about it hear a year or so ago. It was my understanding that it is common courtsey among brewers to share recipes. Really, you can give 10 brewers one recipe, and end up with 10 different beers. This move on her part really kind of turned me off to the brewery. Her beer is good. Not great, but good. Price is good to, at 2-4$ a pint depending on what it is. And she always has good entertainment. Food is wonderful too, and priced well. Not saying I am going to boycot her, but it just left me kind of sour to her as a person, and brewer. I thought brewers were cooler than that. MAybe she did not get the memo?
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tygo on March 14, 2011, 06:52:44 PM
I'd say she's a little bit insecure in her brewing prowess.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: pinnah on March 14, 2011, 06:54:23 PM
Maybe she is on here and keeps hearing you say her brew is good but not great?

Try not to be upset..."Go Scratch"  is not so bad. :D
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: theDarkSide on March 14, 2011, 06:56:01 PM
You should have said "Scratch what?"

What Weazletoe thought he said: "Excuse me, but would you kindly consider letting me have the recipe to this wonderful beer?"

What was really said ( taking into account a few have been consumed ): "Hey Bar Wench...give me this $%@ recipe so I can improve this s*** for you!!"   :o
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 14, 2011, 07:00:30 PM
 
Maybe she is on here and keeps hearing you say her brew is good but not great?

Try not to be upset..."Go Scratch"  is not so bad. :D

 No chance. I've told her more than once I enjoy her beer. Especially for 2-4$ a pint. As for "scratching" I may or may not have just summed up what she said.   ;D
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tumarkin on March 14, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
while most brewers are open & willing to share recipes, techniques, etc; some are not (for whatever/many possible reasons). if you like the place, music, price, etc; then I'd just keep going there. if she gets to know you better, she 'might' be more willing to share, if not don't lose any sleep over it.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: beersk on March 14, 2011, 07:08:08 PM
Damn, she could've just said no, politely.  Most brewers, I think,  are willing to give you some direction.  I wouldn't expect someone to give me the exact recipe or anything.  
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: narvin on March 14, 2011, 07:14:54 PM
Is "go scratch" polite?  I'd have no problem with a brewer telling me no, but they shouldn't get offended.  Anyone who thinks a recipe is ultimate ingredient to brewing good beer is clueless.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: bfogt on March 14, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
If you asked while she was busy, that might be part of the issue.  

The brewers I know would discuss recipes generally but probably not go through the trouble to give proportions.  
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: bluesman on March 14, 2011, 07:27:11 PM
Just to be equitable...was her beer that good you would want to brew it? If not, the answer is easy.

Fuggetaboutit!  8)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: chumley on March 14, 2011, 07:53:22 PM
Since you must be referring to an Idaho brewpub, she obviously did not want to confess that she uses potatoes to bump up the gravity of her brews,
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 14, 2011, 07:55:28 PM
Like I said in the op, the beer was good, and with a treak or two, would be nice to have on tap. And, when I asked her, my words were, "obviously not right now, but next time I'm in could I get a rough idea what that recipe is?" I am in there often. She knows who I am, and we talk plesantries each time. Funny thing is, she does not ever seem to want to talk beer. Guess she is just sick of it.    ::)
 Also, as I stated, I will go back. I'm not boycotting the place. Beer is ok, food is good, entertainment is good, and the price is right. I just lost some respect for her, is my gripe, I guess. Does she really think by giving me a recipe, I'm really gonna run her out of town , 12 gallons at a time? Let's switch it up, and say I took her a sample of mine, and she really liked it, maybe even wanted to brew it. Of course I would give her the recipe. Not only that, I would not ask for, or expect money or even a mention on the tap handle.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: deepsouth on March 14, 2011, 07:56:08 PM
i got an esb from a brewery that i thought was delicious and i asked for their hop profile and they gave me the hops they used, but told me i was on my own for the amounts and addition times.  the owner of the brewery was a homebrewer, so i assume it was probaby a beer they had brewed in smaller batches at one time, but just didn't want to share the info. with me.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 14, 2011, 08:22:57 PM
I asked a brewer about a recipe once and he said "hold on", then went in the back and grabbed his brewing log and gave it to me to peruse :)  All of his recipes, and easy comparison to see how they varied from batch to batch based on what he had on hand.

But I've had the opposite experience as well, including interactions with some prickly brewers who seemed to not want to talk to anyone who knew anything about brewing.  They just wanted to be told how great their beer was, like you said, not talk about beer.  My favorite pro-brewers are those who love talking (and even arguing) about beer, not the curmudgeonly type.  I find their beer to be better in general too, and I think it's related - they know more because they enjoy the subject.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: dbeechum on March 14, 2011, 08:29:27 PM
Yeah, it's all just people. They're an inconsistent, fickle lot. By and large the folks in craft brewing are wonderfully open, but then there are some who are closed off. I find this in all fields - many people willing to share and be proud and those who are closed and ready to assume that any sharing is liable to be grounds for mockery, jabs or theft. Combine that with the fact that no recipe is ultimately protectable except by trade secret and there you go.

Should you be upset? Nah. That's human nature. Enjoy the final product and let the person in question continue through the world in their protective armor.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tomsawyer on March 14, 2011, 08:38:18 PM
Weaz I want to be sympathetic with you but its tough.  Its a freakin' IPA, theres a thousand IPA recipes out there.  Pale malt and some crystal, hops at 60,15 and 5.  Plus you know you wouldn't follow directions, you already said you'd tweak it.  So why do you need the recipe?  I know, its kind of like asking a girl for her number and getting told "no".  No fun but no big deal, theres plenty more where taht came from my friend.

I'm glad you've found a decent spot to hang out there.  Is it close to home?  I've got to drive 20 miles for the privilege of microbrew, and theres generally no band.

If you want to get back at her, next time suggest that she up her crystal a bit, or some credible and legit suggestion like that.  Whatever you'd do to tweak it.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 14, 2011, 08:59:39 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for sympathy. And Yeah, It's just an IPA. I just thought it was poor manners. No hair off my back that I didn't get it. crap, if I really thought hard about a couple pints of it, I could probably crack the code any way. I was just curious if this was the way of most brewers, as I had thought the norm was to be a little more giving.
   Whoever said she does not want to talk beer to anyone in the know, she just wants praise for her beer, I think you hit it right on the head.
  And how from the where I live? Just about easily within stumbling distance. Five miuntes by car.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 14, 2011, 09:20:04 PM
Weaz I want to be sympathetic with you but its tough.  Its a freakin' IPA, theres a thousand IPA recipes out there. 
You could turn this around and say "it's a freakin' IPA, there's a thousand IPA recipes out there.  What's one more?" ;)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: majorvices on March 14, 2011, 09:21:43 PM
It would irritate me a little. She could at least give you some direction. A brewer, like a chef, is certainly allowed to have a few secrets. But they also usually like to talk about the process and ingredients.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: Tim McManus on March 14, 2011, 09:24:38 PM
Maybe she doesn't know what the recipe is.  Quite possibly, the vendor who built the brewery did the formulation for her, and as a result she can't hold a conversation about the ingredients or how it all works.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tomsawyer on March 14, 2011, 10:54:33 PM
You could turn this around and say "it's a freakin' IPA, there's a thousand IPA recipes out there.  What's one more?" ;)

Touche mon frer.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for sympathy.

Good 'cuz theres none coming your way!
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: jaybeerman on March 14, 2011, 11:46:57 PM
Just to play devil’s advocate (not a direct comment on weaz's experience).  Personally I’ve always liked the brewers who were willing to discuss beer but I’ve never asked a brewer for their recipe.  Cheers, j

1.  Brewers who don't feel like divulging their recipe might be thinking about the blood sweat and tears that went into the brewery to make that recipe possible for your consumption. 
2.  Half the fun in homebrewing could/should be from recipe formulation.  How cool would it be to figure her beer out, fix the issue and bring her a better version of her own beer?  If she asks what you did differently tell her to sit and spin.  ;D (or make a stink of being the better person and tell her)  I may start doing this with one of the brewpubs in my area.
3.  Recipes aren’t the ultimate ingredient?  Is this why all the beers of the world are made from briess pale, c40, cascade @ 60 min and California ale yeast?  This thought reminds me of the people who learned how to play half of “stairway to heaven” and then declared that page really wasn’t that good of a guitarist.  To copy (imitate) is not the same as to create.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: narvin on March 15, 2011, 12:05:59 AM

3.  Recipes aren’t the ultimate ingredient?  Is this why all the beers of the world are made from briess pale, c40, cascade @ 60 min and California ale yeast?

You jest, but I bet that's the basis for her (and 80% of brewpubs') IPA.  People can tweak and innovate, but most of brewing relies on what others have done for many years.  The process is at least as important.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: euge on March 15, 2011, 01:14:59 AM
Well it could be that she doesn't like the weaze.  Anybody else asks it like "sure!" but the weaze gets the cold treatment.  :-\
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tomsawyer on March 15, 2011, 01:25:14 AM
Well it could be that she doesn't like the weaze.  Anybody else asks it like "sure!" but the weaze gets the cold treatment.  :-\

+1  I'm guessing he wasn't looking at her eyes when he asked the question.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: maxieboy on March 15, 2011, 01:26:46 AM
Well it could be that she doesn't like the weaze.  Anybody else asks it like "sure!" but the weaze gets the cold treatment.  :-\

What?!? Doesn't she know who he thinks he is?  ;D  No biggie dude, carry on...
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: majorvices on March 15, 2011, 01:31:22 AM
Perhaps had he actually not been wearing pants he would have gotten the recipe.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: bluesman on March 15, 2011, 01:40:51 AM
Perhaps had he actually not been wearing pants he would have gotten the recipe.

I'm with the major on this one.  ;)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: morticaixavier on March 15, 2011, 01:45:10 AM
how do we know he WAS wearing pants?
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: kerneldustjacket on March 15, 2011, 01:54:13 AM
I think the Weaze is wise to say he'll go back...maybe he'll get the full story on why the brewer kicked back such a mean-spirited response. Bad day? Bad past experience with homebrewers? Or maybe The Weaze looks like some past boyfriend that stomped on her heart? Who knows.

At least going back and having a few pints may give an answer...just be sure to share it with us when you get one! ;) ( Hey, some of us don't have lives and depend on the Forum for fun...not me, but maybe some of us  ;D)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 15, 2011, 02:10:01 AM
Am I allowed to post this here? Hope so......not a shameless plug, just want you guys to see what a cool place it really is. It really is a great place. Just a little bummed at the brewer.

http://portneufvalleybrewing.com/
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: barliman on March 15, 2011, 02:20:20 AM
I went to that brewpub over the summer.  I had a sampler assortment of all of their beers and agree that the IPA was decent (I really liked the midnight satin and the belligerent ass nut brown).  I agree with others to not be upset with her.  It's no big deal that she doesn't want to share.

J
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: HydraulicSammich on March 15, 2011, 02:28:34 AM
Barliman, would you share the results of your spruce beer when consumed?  I have been thinking of gathering some Engleman tips in late spring for a brew.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 15, 2011, 02:34:21 AM
I went to that brewpub over the summer. 


 Where ya from? Next time you're in town we'll hit the place up together, and burn it to the ground! Hopefully by then, I'll have Pocatello's finest swill on tap in the mancave too. We can have of few of them, after we drain hers.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: jaybeerman on March 15, 2011, 03:10:17 AM
You jest, but I bet that's the basis for her (and 80% of brewpubs') IPA.  People can tweak and innovate, but most of brewing relies on what others have done for many years.  The process is at least as important.

Yeah, I jest.  Do you think there are more homebrewers that -
1. understand the basic science behind brewing yet lack creative ability or
2. more homebrewers that are "creative" yet lack the process skills they would need to make a great beer

I'm always curious of how other people have approached homebrewing.  Weaze, I’m jealous; the place does look like a decent place to hang out.  Cheers, j
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: yugamrap on March 15, 2011, 04:15:51 AM
Well it could be that she doesn't like the weaze.

Or she's loony....

I've met The Weaze, and he's good dude.  He just hasn't been to Leon's enough lately.  ;-)


    
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weazletoe on March 15, 2011, 04:26:48 AM
Gonna be in Ohio from the 29th of march till the 13th of april. Maybe we can meet somewhere.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: punatic on March 15, 2011, 04:33:46 AM
Maybe she doesn't like bacon breath.   ;)

bouef...

I've met chefs who are the same way; some have recipes preprinted to hand out, others wouldn't share a recipe if you tore their fingernails off.

No big ting bruddah...
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: oscarvan on March 15, 2011, 04:51:51 AM
Am I the only one that would NOT expect someone that's trying to make a living brewing beer to give me their recipe, and if they DO I think that's above and beyond?
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: kgs on March 15, 2011, 05:11:09 AM
Ok (am I the only woman on this thread?) here's my approach.

Say ok, you understand. No pressure. No furrowed brow. Use your best Sensitive Man face.

Come back and have the beer a couple more times. Talk about how you like it. Don't get smarmy.  Say something technical, like how you think it might be the early additions of the X hops that really make this beer, and does she have any suggestions for brewing something like it?

Pro tip: do not hint that you think you can improve on her recipe or brewing technique.

If she doesn't give you the recipe, move on. You've already stated to us (and perhaps to her, if she reads boards) that you don't think it's superlative; in a world with great recipes, you believe you can find better. Likewise, she may be holding out with whom she shares her recipes.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: jmichaelk on March 16, 2011, 06:08:33 PM
I don't think it's rude for a brewer to be reserved with their recipe, and I totally understand the "bortherhood" of sharing.

I asked Larry Bell (Bell's Brewery) some input on making a Homebrew clone of his Two Hearted, and he was extremely reserved and gaurded with pretty much any advice.  I didn't get offended, if I had a "winner" of a recipe, I could see myself being a little reserved as well.  That hasn't happened yet, so I don't know.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: denny on March 16, 2011, 06:33:02 PM
I can tell you that based on the dozens of versions of "my" Rye IPA recipe that people have given me a recipe only has a bit to do with what the finished beer will be like.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 16, 2011, 07:13:15 PM
I'm not faulting anyone for keeping their recipe a secret, but there are polite ways and there are rude ways of saying no.

Although I agree with Denny completely, a recipe is only part of it.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: weithman5 on March 16, 2011, 07:38:13 PM
I am not a big IPA fan anyway ::)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: punatic on March 16, 2011, 08:41:32 PM
I'm not faulting anyone for keeping their recipe a secret, but there are polite ways and there are rude ways of saying no.

Although I agree with Denny completely, a recipe is only part of it.

For me recipes are just sugestions (kind of like the traffic signs in NYC).
They give you the idea of where you want to go, but you control the palate of colors (flavors) and decide how you want to express yourself in your creation.  Once you understand what your ingredients do, measurements are more by taste than metrics.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: bluesman on March 16, 2011, 08:44:02 PM
I'm not faulting anyone for keeping their recipe a secret, but there are polite ways and there are rude ways of saying no.

Although I agree with Denny completely, a recipe is only part of it.

For me recipes are just sugestions (kind of like the traffic signs in NYC).
They give you the idea of where you want to go, but you control the palate of colors (flavors) and decide how you want to express yourself in your creation.  Once you understand what your ingredients do, measurements are more by taste than metrics.

+1

I agree with Denny as well. A great recipe along with a solid process is what makes a great beer.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 17, 2011, 06:01:26 AM
I agree with Denny as well. A great recipe along with a solid process is what makes a great beer.
Yes, but I'm sure you'll agree that a great recipe and a solid process and my system, and the same recipe with a great process on your system will not yield the same beer.  In my experience, recipes always need to be tailored to the system.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: punatic on March 17, 2011, 06:10:15 AM
I agree with Denny as well. A great recipe along with a solid process is what makes a great beer.
Yes, but I'm sure you'll agree that a great recipe and a solid process and my system, and the same recipe with a great process on your system will not yield the same beer.  In my experience, recipes always need to be tailored to the system.

Applying the colors to the canvas...
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 17, 2011, 06:11:43 AM
I agree with Denny as well. A great recipe along with a solid process is what makes a great beer.
Yes, but I'm sure you'll agree that a great recipe and a solid process and my system, and the same recipe with a great process on your system will not yield the same beer.  In my experience, recipes always need to be tailored to the system.

Applying the colors to the canvas...
Yes :)
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: oscarvan on March 17, 2011, 08:30:22 AM
Well, everyone agrees and all is well in AHA land..... ;D
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: bluesman on March 17, 2011, 12:19:32 PM
I agree with Denny as well. A great recipe along with a solid process is what makes a great beer.
Yes, but I'm sure you'll agree that a great recipe and a solid process and my system, and the same recipe with a great process on your system will not yield the same beer.  In my experience, recipes always need to be tailored to the system.

Absolutely...true.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: punatic on March 17, 2011, 01:19:14 PM
Well, everyone agrees and all is well in AHA land..... ;D

Kumbaya
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: rabid_dingo on March 18, 2011, 02:29:23 AM
Am I allowed to post this here? Hope so......not a shameless plug, just want you guys to see what a cool place it really is. It really is a great place. Just a little bummed at the brewer.

http://portneufvalleybrewing.com/
I've been there, She gave ME the recipe...What did you do! ;)

Don't worry about it too much. Some share some don't I don't lose respect for the non-sharers but on the
flip side. The open brewers seem that much cooler to me.

I remember an LHBS that would not share hop types in their recipes. They were pre-measured out and labled
as hop addition #1 #2 and #3. We tried to ask which hops they were and nothing. They did not want to share
even in home brew recipes....Oh well. We don't shop there any more but it's because they shut down. :o
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: Hokerer on March 18, 2011, 12:03:35 PM
Interestingly enough, Portneuf Brewing is the featured brewer in the latest Beer Advocate magazine.
Title: Re: Should I be upset?
Post by: euge on March 18, 2011, 05:32:18 PM
Quote
We don't shop there any more but it's because they shut down.

And I wonder why. We got a place here that could be more customer sympathetic. I'm trying to phase it completely out.