Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: oscarvan on March 15, 2011, 08:23:46 PM

Title: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: oscarvan on March 15, 2011, 08:23:46 PM
Hypothetical situation....

EXACT same recipe....but replace the Pilsner malt with 2 row Pale....

How much of a difference?

I know, you want more details. But lets just keep it hypothetical.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: narvin on March 15, 2011, 08:26:20 PM
Hypothetical situation....

EXACT same recipe....but replace the Pilsner malt with 2 row Pale....

How much of a difference?

I know, you want more details. But lets just keep it hypothetical.

It depends on the other ingredients ;)  If this is a single-hop pilsner with no other grains, you'll notice a lot.  In a darker/hoppier beer, not as much.

I've used a 90/10 mix of German pils and munich malt before in my American IPAs to approximate Pale malt.  It turned out pretty well.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: oscarvan on March 15, 2011, 08:34:06 PM
OK,

Let's say we're adding some Crystal 40ยบ maybe some Carapils and a turbinado sugar...some noble German hops, light on the IBU's...and using a Belgian high octane yeast. Shooting for an OG of just under 1.100 All in the spirit of the Trappists as Stan Hieronymus so emphasizes.

Reason I ask..... I'm sitting on 200# of two row..... ;D
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: jaybeerman on March 15, 2011, 08:55:10 PM
The previous post pretty much covers your question.  If you are still curious about malt read through the info in this link. http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html (http://brewingtechniques.com/bmg/noonan.html) Then as you look through the grain that's available to you, you can get a BASIC idea of what character the grain would have.  For example, pale malt 3.5 srm vs. a pils 1.4 srm - you'll know instantly which would give the sweeter wort.  There are a lot of factors involved and you'll find that based on origin of the grain there are huge differences even within pilsner malts.  cheers, j


north american 2row or?
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: denny on March 15, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
Hypothetical situation....

EXACT same recipe....but replace the Pilsner malt with 2 row Pale....

How much of a difference?

I know, you want more details. But lets just keep it hypothetical.

Virtually no difference in most beers.  Pils malt is usually about 1.5L, pale maybe about 2.  In most cases, you'll never know the difference.

Jay, that 3.5 sounds more like pale ale malt than pale.  For instance, Rahr lists their pils malt at 1.4-2L and their pale at 1.7-2L.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: jaybeerman on March 15, 2011, 09:52:57 PM
Virtually no difference in most beers.  Pils malt is usually about 1.5L, pale maybe about 2.  In most cases, you'll never know the difference.

Jay, that 3.5 sounds more like pale ale malt than pale.  For instance, Rahr lists their pils malt at 1.4-2L and their pale at 1.7-2L.

I was just giving an example of the biggest spread that you could find between the two types.  I agree that 3.5 was too extreme I should have said 3.0

For example:
Halcyon Pale - 3.0 srm (at the highest side of the srm range)
Best Pils - 1 srm (at the lowest end of the srm range)

At 20 plus pounds of halcyon (or best pils), a touch of c40 and little hop character, I imagine that you could tell the difference between the two base grains.  That's not to say that one has to be better than the other.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: tschmidlin on March 15, 2011, 10:12:25 PM
I think I'd notice a difference.  I had a barelywine once made with pils malt, and my first question was "Did you use pils malt".  I can pick it out pretty regularly.

But making a Belgian style beer with pale malt?  I think it would be fine to do.  It might not be "to style", but I think it will still be good.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: jeffy on March 16, 2011, 12:48:03 AM
I think I'd notice a difference.  I had a barelywine once made with pils malt, and my first question was "Did you use pils malt".  I can pick it out pretty regularly.

But making a Belgian style beer with pale malt?  I think it would be fine to do.  It might not be "to style", but I think it will still be good.
I'm with Tom here.  I can usually identify pils malt flavor and sometimes it works well, other styles not so much.  My standard APA and IPA use pils malt as a base and I like their flavors, but of course the hops are the focus there.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: bluesman on March 16, 2011, 01:18:01 AM
Sounds like a blind triangle taste test is in order here.  ;)

My bet is that under the right conditions(recipe dependant) it could be distinguished. I think the difference will be very subtle, almost to the point of indistinguishable. Using 100% base malt, the color would be slightly different and the aroma would be as well. Flavor-wise is where there will be very subtle differences IMO.

Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: Tim McManus on March 16, 2011, 01:29:50 AM
We just picked up a 55# back of Weyerman German Pilsner and some Munton's 2-row.  You can easily smell the difference between the two grains.  We're also taking our IPA recipe and replacing all of the 2-row with pilsner.  That brew is happening this weekend.

I'll let you know in a few weeks if there's a difference.  I expect there will be.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: beveragebob on March 16, 2011, 09:19:07 AM
Depending on the tasters threshold sensitivity, one might detect the slight DMS flavor versus the slightly higher kilned and less apparent DMS attributes of the Pale malt. For most of us though, I'd say it would be a tough call either way.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: tschmidlin on March 16, 2011, 03:48:43 PM
I don't know, maybe I have a low threshold for pils flavors.  Double Mountain uses it as their base malt in all of their beers (porters, IPAs, all of them), and I noticed the first time I visited their pub.  I think it's one of the reasons some of their beers are good but not great.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: denny on March 16, 2011, 03:55:20 PM
Interesting comments.  I've never actually tried to discern the differences in 2 like beers, I was just guessing based on the slight color difference.  Guess I'll have to do a 'spurment.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: oscarvan on March 16, 2011, 07:33:05 PM
OK, I am happy with the responses. Sounds like only the developed sensory testers here would be able to tell, if at all. So, since I have a pile of this I will be using it. To get the flavor where I want it I'll use the right hops, and of course the WYE3789......yes, I am letting "the beast" in the brewery..... whoahaahahha.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: ryang on March 18, 2011, 03:02:02 PM
Well I have this experiment going now.  I usually have my checklist when I go to the lhbs, but this time, I did not.  20lb of 2-row instead of pilsner.  Oh well.

It's going to be a very hoppy beer though, so I'm not sure the base malt will be noticed much anyway.

Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: passlaku on March 19, 2011, 05:41:24 PM
I don't know, maybe I have a low threshold for pils flavors.  Double Mountain uses it as their base malt in all of their beers (porters, IPAs, all of them), and I noticed the first time I visited their pub.  I think it's one of the reasons some of their beers are good but not great.

How would you characterize those pils flavors versus 2 row?  Eg, is it grainier than 2row or more bready? 
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: a10t2 on March 19, 2011, 06:10:55 PM
Pils malt tastes sweet to me, but a sort of grainy sweetness, as opposed to the bready grain character of something like Maris Otter or to a lesser extent domestic pale ale malts.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: jeffy on March 19, 2011, 08:08:00 PM
Pils malt tastes sweet to me, but a sort of grainy sweetness, as opposed to the bready grain character of something like Maris Otter or to a lesser extent domestic pale ale malts.
Yes, the sweetness seems a bit honey-like and the graininess reminds me of husks in the grain mill.  2-row pale malt is bready, almost like the crust of white bread.  Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: tschmidlin on March 20, 2011, 07:03:51 AM
I agree that the pils is more grainy and the pale more bready.  But there is also a sulfury note to the pils malt that I pick up.  I'm not sure how else to describe it without a sample in front of me, it is borderline skunky but not the same as the light struck aroma/flavor.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: bonjour on March 20, 2011, 01:04:07 PM
to me pils give a "sharper taste than pale, on the grainy side, and depending on the brew, can exhibit some sulfur characteristics.

I't's this grain that imho gives a lot of the character onf Pilsners and American Lagers, and a few other beers and helps define the style of these beers.

I would love to taste a Triple side by side same recipe, one with Pale, the other with pils.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: bluesman on March 20, 2011, 02:58:56 PM
I would love to taste a Triple side by side same recipe, one with Pale, the other with pils.

This or a lager like a Dorty or Helles. I think Pils has a graininess that's almost sharp compared a more rounded (bready) malt flavor from 2 row.
Title: Re: Pale vs Pilsner
Post by: euge on March 20, 2011, 07:09:31 PM
I would love to taste a Triple side by side same recipe, one with Pale, the other with pils.

This or a lager like a Dorty or Helles. I think Pils has a graininess that's almost sharp compared a more rounded (bready) malt flavor from 2 row.

I get a bitter graininess from Pils. The only reason I'd use it is to get that flavor. Two-row has a more subtle malty grain flavor. To me.