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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: kgs on March 19, 2011, 04:22:10 PM

Title: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: kgs on March 19, 2011, 04:22:10 PM
I enjoyed the Youtube video on the AHA main page about making yeast starters -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMQ1L9iVvz4 -- but the procedure demonstrated uses dry yeast. I didn't think making starters with dry yeast was necessary or recommended.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: dbeechum on March 19, 2011, 04:34:21 PM
You're right. Dry yeast and starters are an unnecessary combination, but the video is well done and gets the point across.

For me you replace 2 things at the end and you effectively have how I always used to do my starters before pressure canning.

Namely, liquid yeast and no rutting airlock. The foil is fine and you get better growth!
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: kgs on March 19, 2011, 04:57:18 PM
You're right. Dry yeast and starters are an unnecessary combination, but the video is well done and gets the point across.

For me you replace 2 things at the end and you effectively have how I always used to do my starters before pressure canning.

Namely, liquid yeast and no rutting airlock. The foil is fine and you get better growth!

I'm going to do foil the next time. I am still using airlocks (I don't know why).

But it's a well-made video!
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: tom on March 19, 2011, 05:00:04 PM
or a plastic baggy
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: tubercle on March 19, 2011, 05:08:23 PM
Very familiar.

 That could have been me in that video except the dry yeast and airlock also.

 That's even the way I mix starsan and sanitize everything with a spray bottle.

Eerie.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: dbeechum on March 19, 2011, 05:12:08 PM
But it's a well-made video!

Indeed and anyone who follows the instructions in the video will be well served. I'd just tweak a few things cause I'm cranky that way. :)
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: euge on March 19, 2011, 06:49:16 PM
I like the table.

Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: oscarvan on March 20, 2011, 12:40:06 AM
I like the table.



And the brick wall.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: kgs on March 20, 2011, 11:52:31 AM
Very familiar.

 That could have been me in that video except the dry yeast and airlock also.

 That's even the way I mix starsan and sanitize everything with a spray bottle.

Eerie.

and the goggles?

The flask would be new for me, but it's an affordable process change. I am using a small saucepan and a 1-gallon jar. I also spritz.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: weithman5 on March 20, 2011, 01:26:20 PM
i use 1qt canning jars and just leave the lid loose on the top works fine especially for smaller batch beers when i don't need large volmes.  not necessary with dry yeast to make a starter but you can spread out a package that way (if you are very careful) over several batches.  i will do the same with whte labs yeast, make a starter out of half the tube, then store the other half.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: kgs on March 20, 2011, 04:17:39 PM
.  not necessary with dry yeast to make a starter but you can spread out a package that way (if you are very careful) over several batches. 

would you split up the dry yeast? I'm considering a scale that could do that kind of measurement anyway.

I assume the point of the flask is to keep the sanitation chain of custody as limited as possible, reducing contamination points at a particularly crucial stage in the brewing process. though there may be an element of geek factor.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: Hokerer on March 20, 2011, 08:21:03 PM
I assume the point of the flask is to keep the sanitation chain of custody as limited as possible, reducing contamination points at a particularly crucial stage in the brewing process. though there may be an element of geek factor.

As I understand it, the real point of the flask is to insure that you've got a flat enough bottom for a stir bar/stir plate combo to work smoothly.  Regular jars, jugs, and whatnot may not have a flat enough bottom.

And yes, there is the geek factor too :)
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: Mark G on March 20, 2011, 11:33:33 PM
I assume the point of the flask is to keep the sanitation chain of custody as limited as possible, reducing contamination points at a particularly crucial stage in the brewing process. though there may be an element of geek factor.

As I understand it, the real point of the flask is to insure that you've got a flat enough bottom for a stir bar/stir plate combo to work smoothly.  Regular jars, jugs, and whatnot may not have a flat enough bottom.

And yes, there is the geek factor too :)
You can boil and cool in the flask. It makes for less transfers and exposure to possible contamination. Boiling in the flask also means sanitizing it ahead of time is unnecessary.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: denny on March 20, 2011, 11:51:21 PM
You're right. Dry yeast and starters are an unnecessary combination, but the video is well done and gets the point across.

For me you replace 2 things at the end and you effectively have how I always used to do my starters before pressure canning.

Namely, liquid yeast and no rutting airlock. The foil is fine and you get better growth!

I disagree, Drew.  The purpose of the video is to promote what we all know is a poor brewing practice...making a starter with dry yeast.  I've emailed the powers that be asking them to remove it.  Cranky?  Perhaps. 
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: denny on March 20, 2011, 11:52:11 PM
You're right. Dry yeast and starters are an unnecessary combination, but the video is well done and gets the point across.

I disagree, Drew.  The purpose of the video is to promote what we all know is a poor brewing practice...making a starter with dry yeast.  I've emailed the powers that be asking them to remove it.  Cranky?  Perhaps.  
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: jaybeerman on March 21, 2011, 12:23:15 AM
I disagree, Drew.  The purpose of the video is to promote what we all know is a poor brewing practice...making a starter with dry yeast.  I've emailed the powers that be asking them to remove it.  Cranky?  Perhaps. 

Yeah, but the guy is quite fashionable, nicely dressed (did you not see the goggles?), and there's a catchy soundtrack; surely you can forgive a little misinformation  ::)
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: weithman5 on March 21, 2011, 01:19:04 AM
.  not necessary with dry yeast to make a

would you split up the dry yeast? I'm considering a scale that could do that kind of measurement anyway.



we'll see how it works.  i just brewed (i brew 1 gallonish batches)  used about 1/3 of the package, then 1/3 in a cider (again 1gal)  the remaining 1/3 i am going to make a starter from and then save this starter as a slurry for the next few batches (probably divide again and make a few batches)
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 21, 2011, 02:30:09 AM
Old laboratory adage:

"A watched flask never boils."
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: euge on March 21, 2011, 02:48:55 AM
Old laboratory adage:

"A watched flask never boils-over."

There. Fixed it for ya!
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 21, 2011, 03:07:40 AM
It's gotta boil before it will boil-over.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: gimmeales on March 23, 2011, 10:45:39 PM
Sooooo close!  If only he'd used a smack pack or tube of yeast I think most of us would forgive the airlock faux pas.  I'm on the fence - agree with Drew's point because of the production quality (and the process will produce fine beer), but Denny makes a point that resonates with me (because he's right about established best-practices)

There's only one place this will be resolved - THE OCTAGON!


p.s  I also agree that table rules!




Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: bluesman on March 24, 2011, 12:22:14 AM
Well done!

....again I'll reiterate...except for the dry yeast and air-lock. I also don't think it's necessary to sanitize the flask prior to boiling as the boiling process will properly sanitize the flask.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 24, 2011, 06:58:45 AM
Is there a problem with using an airlock on a yeast starter?
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 24, 2011, 07:16:59 AM
Is there a problem with using an airlock on a yeast starter?
Not a problem per se, but it will inhibit yeast growth.  You want some air flow in to get some extra O2 for the yeast to build cell walls.  Foil or a foam stopper is good enough to allow air flow while keeping out bugs and dust.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 24, 2011, 07:30:42 AM
Dang, I've been doin it wrong for 22 years.   How much of an air exchange do you suppose you get through a foil cap or foam stopper? 

Positive pressure created by the generation of a heavier than air gas in a confined space, I think it's a one way flow - CO2 pushing outward.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 24, 2011, 08:24:34 AM
Yeah you'd think so, but the O2 flows because of the O2 gradient.  Weird eh? :)

Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 24, 2011, 12:58:29 PM
Dang, I've been doin it wrong for 22 years.   How much of an air exchange do you suppose you get through a foil cap or foam stopper? 

Positive pressure created by the generation of a heavier than air gas in a confined space, I think it's a one way flow - CO2 pushing outward.

Partial pressure is what you have to think about.  The O2 will go in due to the higher partial pressure of O2 on the outside like Tom says.  Sierra Nevada went away from the twistoffs to the O2 barrier caps.  The beer was not going flat, but O2 was getting in past the seal.  Counterintuitive.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 24, 2011, 01:18:52 PM
I'm guessing that the model for this idea is the same as the one for how bottles of crown-capped beer becomes oxidized over time?

Ah, it is.  hopfenundmalz posted while I was writing this.

I think that model is incorrect because it is based on a static interface between the confined space in the container and the atmosphere.  The interface between the starter's confined space and the atmosphere is dynamic due to the generation of CO2 by fermentation.

Picture the O2 molecules as salmon trying to swim upstream against the current in a river of CO2.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: majorvices on March 24, 2011, 01:21:29 PM
Regardless of whether or not o2 can get in under the foil, only wankers use airlocks on starters. Know that.  :P
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: narvin on March 24, 2011, 01:29:38 PM
I'm guessing that the model for this idea is the same as the one for how bottles of crown-capped beer becomes oxidized over time?

Ah, it is.  hopfenundmalz posted while I was writing this.

I think that model is incorrect because it is based on a static interface between the confined space in the container and the atmosphere.  The interface between the starter's confined space and the atmosphere is dynamic due to the generation of CO2 by fermentation.

Picture the O2 molecules as salmon trying to swim upstream against the current in a river of CO2.

That's why you shake it every time you walk by, or use a stir plate.  The agitation is going to get some O2 in there. 
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: punatic on March 24, 2011, 01:32:53 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful insight.

Yours Truly,
WankingAwayInPuna.  ;)
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: bluesman on March 24, 2011, 02:03:07 PM
Thank you for sharing your thoughtful insight.

Yours Truly,
WankingAwayInPuna.  ;)

Dear Mr. Wanker,

I want to thank you for your avid participation in the AHA Forum. I hope it has been a learning and inspirational experience. We appreciate your active engagement and hope you will continue to join us ongoing. By the way, using foil to cap your yeast starters is recommended. Please don't hesitate to contact us for all of your wanking needs at your convenience.

Cheers  ;D
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: denny on March 24, 2011, 03:22:17 PM
Well, the AHA removed the link to the video from our site as I requested.  I agree the production values were good, but speaking as someone who's spent over 30 years in the production biz, if the content isn't accurate, all you're left with is a good looking nothing.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: tschmidlin on March 24, 2011, 04:15:55 PM
Picture the O2 molecules as salmon trying to swim upstream against the current in a river of CO2.
You might be right to some extent, but the flow is pretty slow and there is likely to be O2 molecules with sufficient energy to overcome the current, especially when the flow is spread out over the mouth of the flask instead of concentrated in the outlet of an airlock.  I don't have any data to support this though, maybe someone else does.
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: glastctbrew on March 25, 2011, 12:10:35 PM
I was talking to Dana, aka the man with the goggles, the other day about the video.  It was not their intent to recommend making a starter for dry yeast, only to demonstrate how one goes about making a starter.  Their choose of dry yeast was purely economics,  $3 for dry and $8 for liquid.  They felt Home Brewers advanced enough to consider making starters would know that dry yeast doesn't require, nor should it utilize, a starter.

Alas, they made assumptions and that is never a good thing but their intent was good and I still like the video.  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it but I would qualify it with "Use liquid yeast only, dry doesn't need a starter" and "Use foil or foam, not an air lock, your yeast will be happier"
Title: Re: Youtube Video of Starter -- With Dry Yeast?
Post by: jaybeerman on March 25, 2011, 05:49:53 PM
The genuine desire to help newbie brewers was clearly apparent in the video.  Is there opportunity to remake the video? (Assuming Dana and crew feel up to it)  Perhaps the video could be broken into two portions; reconstituting dry yeast and making a starter for liquid yeast.  As far as the next version goes; Bluesman made a good point, sanitizing before a boil isn't necessary.  Skip the airlock.  Technical stuff - once the boil is started you can loosely place the foil over the mouth of the flask, as the steam rises it will sanitize the foil as well.  When the starter is ready for yeast, it's not a bad habit to hold the foil above the mouth of the flask.  This accomplishes two things, it shields the mouth of the flask and it keeps you from setting the foil on a non sanitized surface.  Good luck with the second version.  cheers, j