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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: majorvices on March 27, 2011, 07:43:35 PM

Title: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on March 27, 2011, 07:43:35 PM
Anyone have a source? I have an orange tree in my solarium and when it blooms it smells simply terrific. I want to make a beer with them, but there's not enough blossoms to really experiment with.

I see Randy Mosher mentions them in "Radical Brewing" so I am obviously not the first to think of this. He mentions Middle Eastern Markets. I don't know that we have one in our area.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: punatic on March 27, 2011, 08:31:12 PM
I have tried very late addition citrus blossoms in mead - fermentation complete late.  I used citrus honey mead of varying degrees of sweetness.  I played around with the volume and type of flowers added too (orange, tangerine, grapefruit, lemon, and lime).  The result was a floral aroma somewhat different than what the blossoms smell like at their peak on the tree.  Try smelling a blossom on the tree that has gone past its peak.  It is simular to that.  The aroma fades pretty quickly with time in the bottle.

Making a blossom tincture with Everclear seemed to capture and transfer to the mead the fresh-blossom aroma, but that too faded pretty quickly in the bottle.

I did these trials about 10-11 years ago when I lived in Orlando.  I had 10 full grown citrus trees in my yard, and access to many more.  Mrs. Punatic, who loves mead, encouraged me mightily to keep trying.  We both love the scent of citrus blossoms.

Here in Hawaii I have coffee (and citrus too).  I've been eyeing the coffee blossoms.  They smell very much like citrus blossoms, and bloom at the same time.  Perhaps next year...  Every coffee blossom picked is a bean not roasted.  My trees are still youngish and enough blossoms to experiment with would make a noticable reduction in beans.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on March 27, 2011, 08:42:05 PM
Thats good info. FWIW it was for a low gravity saison and it would be consumed very young and fresh. I just can't find a source. Anywhere! ::)
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: gordonstrong on March 27, 2011, 08:54:15 PM
I haven't seen them before.  However, orange blossom honey does have a very strong aroma.  Have you tried adding some of that at knockout?  It will add some fermentables (similar to liquid malt extract).  You could also add it in the primary or secondary.  I sometimes use a pound of orange blossom honey in a pale ale for an extra floral/fruity note that isn't from hops.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: tumarkin on March 27, 2011, 09:17:13 PM
another floral petal option that might be easier to source would be Hibiscus blossoms. they are used in Mexico to make a tea. they're called Jamaica - but pronounce in spanish with an ititial 'HA' sound, rather than like the caribbean country. very different than citrus blossoms but something I've thought about using in a saison before.

if nothing else, now I've got the lyrics of Jackson Browne's song "Jamaica Say You Will" running through my head. Thanks for that.... haven't thought of that song in years. Damn, he wrote a lot of great tunes.

Jamaica was the lovely one, I played her well
As we lay in the tall grass where the shadows fell
Hiding from the children so they would not tell
We would stay there 'till her sister rang the evening bell
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on March 27, 2011, 09:38:40 PM
Well, a google search shows there apparently is a beer made with them commercially. Just can't find a source for the flowers. I will also look in to the hibiscus flowers, thanks.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: gordonstrong on March 27, 2011, 09:59:44 PM
Maybe you should reach out to Patrick Rue at The Bruery.  Sounds like the kind of thing he'd use.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on March 27, 2011, 10:08:43 PM
Maybe you should reach out to Patrick Rue at The Bruery.  Sounds like the kind of thing he'd use.

Great suggestion - thanks!
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: punatic on March 28, 2011, 12:25:40 AM
Citrus blossom honey (CBH) does have nice floral qualities when it's fresh.  I've found back-sweetening with CBH increases the floral nose of my CBH meads.

I've been mulling over the mystery of the disappearing citrus blossom aroma in my bottled meads.  I use raw honey and no-heat meadmaking.  Raw honey has enzymes in it that bees' guts use to invert nectar into honey.  I'm thinking that the active enzymes in the raw honey affects the volatile compounds that give the citrus blossoms their wonderful aroma.  Just a theory mind you...

Hybiscus flowers have very little to no aroma.  They are pretty, and may add flavor, but I don't think they will contribute much aroma-wise.  Again, just a theory;  I have not tried hybiscus flowers in my brewing or meadmaking.  I do have many varieties growing in my yard though.  Perhaps some experimentation is in order.  Hmmm....
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: mabrungard on March 28, 2011, 01:01:36 AM
Hey, don't forget that there is a product called Orange Water that has intense orange blossom aroma.  Those of you that attended the BJCP Judges dinner in Minneapolis last summer should remember that.  Very intense and pleasant aroma.  I could imagine that some of that added at kegging or bottling would impart the effect that this brewer wants.

Its available at middle eastern and indian food stores typically.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: jaybeerman on March 28, 2011, 01:31:54 AM
Feeling rich? You could use neroli, the stuff that's distilled from flowers is about $400 an ounce but I imagine it wouldn't take much.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: bluesman on March 28, 2011, 01:57:55 AM
I would look into the suppliers that florists use. Some florists sell the flowers on a regular basis and might be able to direct you to a viable source.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: pyrite on March 28, 2011, 04:31:57 AM
Out here in Riverside CA, which is one of the major citrus producers in the U.S. the orange blossoms have not bloomed yet.  Usually the orange blossom bloom by March, but for what ever weather patterns they have not yet bloomed.  Darn, I still have a boat load of oranges on my 18 trees from last season. I suspect the orange blossoms will bloom in another 2 month or so.

Check out Hanger 24 brewery, they use local grown oranges from Redlands CA, in their beer.  They also brewed an aniversary IIPA with the addition of honey at secondary that gave a great clove floral aroma. You might have luck with their supplier.

http://www.hangar24brewery.com/co_orangewheat.htm

http://www.hangar24brewery.com/co_dipa.htm

 
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: gordonstrong on March 28, 2011, 02:06:32 PM
I have no idea how well this would work, but it should be cheap enough to find out.  Go to a decent grocery store and look in the section with spices, or in the section with cookie making supplies, and look for orange oil.  Very concentrated stuff.  I sometimes use cinnamon oil to tweak meads.  A little goes a really long way.  I'm guessing it's the same for orange oil, but I don't know what kind of orange character it produces.  You can test it on a small scale (in a glass) to see.  It should only cost a couple bucks, but the bottle is tiny -- thimble-sized. 
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: ryang on March 28, 2011, 02:19:36 PM
I have no idea how well this would work, but it should be cheap enough to find out.  Go to a decent grocery store and look in the section with spices, or in the section with cookie making supplies, and look for orange oil.  Very concentrated stuff.  I sometimes use cinnamon oil to tweak meads.  A little goes a really long way.  I'm guessing it's the same for orange oil, but I don't know what kind of orange character it produces.  You can test it on a small scale (in a glass) to see.  It should only cost a couple bucks, but the bottle is tiny -- thimble-sized. 

or Penzy's orange extract.  I've experimented putting drops into commercial wheat beers and my own belgian wit, but only in the glass.  Haven't tried putting it in say, at bottling.  Great aroma, not a ton of flavor, but you can definately tell it's there.  Again, a little goes a pretty long way.
Penzy's is very high quality stuff and am lucky to have a store so close by.

http://www.penzeys.com/cgi-bin/penzeys/p-penzeysorangeextract.html
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: jeffy on March 28, 2011, 02:42:13 PM
All that orange flavoring is fine, I'm sure, but the op wanted the aroma from the orange blossoms, which to me is totally different.  I've got some blossoming in my back yard right now and they do smell great, but not so much orangey.
A friend of mine once made a beer that he dry-flowered with orange blossoms.  It took a lot, but the result was very nice.  Floral, as I recall.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: ryang on March 28, 2011, 02:45:26 PM
All that orange flavoring is fine, I'm sure, but the op wanted the aroma from the orange blossoms, which to me is totally different.  I've got some blossoming in my back yard right now and they do smell great, but not so much orangey.
A friend of mine once made a beer that he dry-flowered with orange blossoms.  It took a lot, but the result was very nice.  Floral, as I recall.


The penzy's is as close as I've come.  I suppose I should have mentioned that in my other post.  My wife's grandparents have citrus trees in Phoenix and I've tried making tinctures with those, and it just doesn't have the impact that you might think.  I think they are just a bit too delicate.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: punatic on March 28, 2011, 02:51:26 PM
The orange oil you are talking about is extracted from orange peel.  It imparts an orange flavor and aroma just like the peel.  I use it in my meads.  You are correct.  A little dab'l do ya.  Try experimenting with it on a small volume of beverage; adding it drop-wise until you reach the flavor/aroma level you like.  Then scale it up to the size of the batch you want to flavor.

I think someone using orange extract in cooking made a fortuitous boo boo and discovered that citrus peel extract is an excellent natural solvent.  Many cleaners today are citrus oil based.  Word to the wise; be careful what you get the extract on...
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: denny on March 28, 2011, 03:38:37 PM
Maybe you should reach out to Patrick Rue at The Bruery.  Sounds like the kind of thing he'd use.

Great suggestion - thanks!

Patrick will be the next guest on Ask the Experts after Sean Paxton.  Look for him sometime in May.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on March 28, 2011, 11:56:55 PM
All that orange flavoring is fine, I'm sure, but the op wanted the aroma from the orange blossoms, which to me is totally different.  I've got some blossoming in my back yard right now and they do smell great, but not so much orangey.
A friend of mine once made a beer that he dry-flowered with orange blossoms.  It took a lot, but the result was very nice.  Floral, as I recall.

TOTALLY THIS^^^^

As far as the Bruery goes, they aren't doing one I hope. I did a search on "Orange Blossom Beer" and I didn't find but one commercially produced one and it was a Cream Ale.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: EHall on April 19, 2011, 11:42:47 PM
something to try... http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/orange-blossom-water-4-oz
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on April 20, 2011, 12:58:17 AM
Thanks. I have been eyeing up the Orange Blossom water. Hadn't seen that brand before. Great flour though!
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: punatic on April 20, 2011, 01:13:03 AM
something to try... http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/orange-blossom-water-4-oz


Tried it.  Eh...  pretty disappointing.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on April 20, 2011, 02:34:21 PM
Anyone try this brand?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LQJ6DK/ref=s9_simh_gw_p325_d4_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1E3VYF7S9ZKRQGVG5MWW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: tschmidlin on April 20, 2011, 04:50:10 PM
Anyone try this brand?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LQJ6DK/ref=s9_simh_gw_p325_d4_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=1E3VYF7S9ZKRQGVG5MWW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846
That's the kind I have, but it's also the only kind I've ever tried so I have nothing to compare it to.  It seems good to me, but I haven't put it in a beer or mead.
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: The Naked Brewer on April 20, 2011, 10:04:19 PM
These guys make an Orange Blossom Ale here in Reno:
http://www.buckbeanbeer.com/ (http://www.buckbeanbeer.com/)
Give 'em a call and see if they'll give you a contact for orange blossom flowers or at least give you an idea of how they get that type of flavor in their beer
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2011, 02:34:42 PM
Thanks, man! i will!
Title: Re: Orange Blossom flowers
Post by: jeffy on April 23, 2011, 06:15:03 PM
I was in Walgreens today and saw EKO orange flower water, 4oz for $1.79, so I bought some.  It says on the label "deionized water and orange flower extract" 
It doesn't seem to have much scent to me, but I'll have my wife give it a sniff when she gets home.
http://store.otcretail.com/p243212.html