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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: stlaleman on March 30, 2011, 08:09:03 PM

Title: Burton water
Post by: stlaleman on March 30, 2011, 08:09:03 PM
To start, my chemistry is mostly forgotten  (been 30+ years since college chemistry) so talking in moles is foreign at best. If I start with DI water,in what quantities do I add what to make this water? I'm wanting to make some historic IPA. Any water recipes?
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: Kirk on April 01, 2011, 05:32:51 AM
I suggest you download Martin Brungard's program, Bru'n Water, and use that to get your water to where you want it.  He has Burton water as one of the targets.
The site is https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/home/files
I hope this helps you, it did me.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: mabrungard on April 01, 2011, 12:55:48 PM
Even though I include a researched Burton water profile, I caution its use.  Here is a discussion that I presented on HomeBrew Talk yesterday on the same subject. 

"As AJ says, lower mineral concentions are probably better for producing good beer.

For instance, the groundwater in Burton is the result of upwelling from the Mercia Mudstone (a gypsum-bearing formation) into the surficial sand and gravel aquifer where it mixes with groundwater from rainfall infiltration and Trent River inflow. The more the brewers of the region utilized that water source, the more the dilution from these other sources. The amount of rainfall and river level also affect the groundwater quality.

The location of the water supply well also has an influence. At Marston Brewery, the sulfate content is up to 800 ppm, while at Coors Brewery the sulfate content was only about 200 ppm. These were sampled at the same time and come from the same sand and gravel aquifer. So, defining a 'true' Burton water profile is impossible.

I've included a balanced Burton water profile in Bru'n Water that was estimated based on the relative concentrations of ions observed from that aquifer, but clearly those concentrations could be higher or lower. At over 600 ppm sulfate, the provided profile is not as extreme as that groundwater gets, but its pretty mineralized. I would personally be reluctant to brew with that Burton profile and would go with the Pale Ale profile that is also included in Bru'n Water as a first try for brewing a good hoppy beer (300 ppm sulfate). A less mineralized water profile is also going to produce a good beer, but it might not have the 'pop' a brewer is looking for. Its all dependent on the brewer's taste and skill.

Personally, I'm with AJ in believing that a 'less is more' mantra is more likely to produce a good beer.

Use water profiles with caution."


Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: Kit B on April 01, 2011, 01:04:33 PM
To address only a portion of your question...I wouldn't recommend using DI water.
Go with R/O or distilled.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: gordonstrong on April 01, 2011, 01:11:23 PM
Use RO water and toss 2 tsp calcium sulfate into the mash.  Close enough.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: beersk on April 02, 2011, 12:50:24 AM
Use RO water and toss 2 tsp calcium sulfate into the mash.  Close enough.
That's all you need huh?  I was planning on using 3 grams gypsum and 2 grams Calcium Chloride and call it good for my next IPA. 
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: stlaleman on April 02, 2011, 08:49:05 PM
What is wrong with DI water?
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: tschmidlin on April 02, 2011, 10:40:01 PM
What is wrong with DI water?
You can use it, but in addition to the major brewing ions we are used to adjusting with salt additions, it's missing a lot of important trace elements.  A little of this, a little of that, it all adds up.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: narcout on April 03, 2011, 02:00:10 AM
Use RO water and toss 2 tsp calcium sulfate into the mash.  Close enough.
That's all you need huh?  I was planning on using 3 grams gypsum and 2 grams Calcium Chloride and call it good for my next IPA. 

Two teaspoons of gypsum is roughly 8 grams.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: narvin on April 03, 2011, 04:14:14 AM
What is wrong with DI water?
You can use it, but in addition to the major brewing ions we are used to adjusting with salt additions, it's missing a lot of important trace elements.  A little of this, a little of that, it all adds up.

Many people use RO water successfully.  Once you distill or pass your water through a RO filter, any trace of those "trace" elements is effectively gone.  Throw in some yeast nutrient if you're worried.

The issue with DI water (if I understand what that means) is that a de-ionizer replaces hardness with sodium ions, which affects beer flavor.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: hoser on April 03, 2011, 04:18:25 AM
My understanding was that DI was distilled water and hence had no "trace" minerals and that softened water exchanged calcium and magnesium for sodium, no?
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: tschmidlin on April 03, 2011, 04:27:21 AM
Many people use RO water successfully.  Once you distill or pass your water through a RO filter, any trace of those "trace" elements is effectively gone.  Throw in some yeast nutrient if you're worried.

The issue with DI water (if I understand what that means) is that a de-ionizer replaces hardness with sodium ions, which affects beer flavor.
Deionized water is often ion-exchange, but it is exchanging H+ and OH- for the ions in the water, it is not adding Na+, it has the ions removed.  It is very similar to distilled water.

A water softener is what replaces hardness with sodium.

RO water may be as pure as deionized water, but that depends on the system.  RO water may be ion-reduced as opposed to deionized.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: euge on April 03, 2011, 05:39:52 AM
I have a whole-house water softener coupled with RO. Produces 7-14ppm water. Excellent for extract, and with AG I back-mineralize up to 25-50% tap.

I have a bag that says "Burton Water Salts" with no instructions or manufacturer. It's been with me for 4 year and has never been used. Anyone got an idea how to use this?

There's a good chance it's from LD Carlson.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: tonyp on April 03, 2011, 03:45:57 PM
I have a whole-house water softener coupled with RO. Produces 7-14ppm water. Excellent for extract, and with AG I back-mineralize up to 25-50% tap.

I have a bag that says "Burton Water Salts" with no instructions or manufacturer. It's been with me for 4 year and has never been used. Anyone got an idea how to use this?

There's a good chance it's from LD Carlson.

guess it depends on your setup, we have a well, so in our 'pump room' we have the well pump, a neutralizer tank (which looks like a tall skinny propane tank with a black box on top) and a salt reservoir (which is a big plastic tub with a top on it). We have to put a few bags of salt in it every few months and the neutralizer has to be serviced once a year or so to top up the calcite (i think).

any of that sound familiar in your setup?

Tony
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: euge on April 03, 2011, 04:50:09 PM
Oh yes. But all I do is add salt. Not sure about the neutralizer... In fact it's never been serviced in three years. Been wondering about that, so I'm gonna bust out the owner's manual.
Title: Re: Burton water
Post by: tonyp on April 03, 2011, 11:11:55 PM
Oh yes. But all I do is add salt. Not sure about the neutralizer... In fact it's never been serviced in three years. Been wondering about that, so I'm gonna bust out the owner's manual.

The system we have now was replaced before we moved in and we didn't know it needed to be serviced regularly which is now causing us problems with our pipes. The Ph level is so acidic that its actually eating away the copper from the inside and 3 times this year we had leaks spring up, twice inside of walls. it was a MESS, both to cleanup and to fix.

I would call a local water treatment guy and just have him come over and take a look at your system, its well worth the small fee not to go through what we did with leaking pipes and repair bills.

Tony