Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum
General Category => Commercial Beer Reviews => Topic started by: jivetyrant on April 07, 2011, 12:06:17 am
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After hearing many of my brewing and beer loving friends sing the praises of Orval I tracked a bottle of it down. I cracked it a few minutes ago and must say, I was not only underwhelmed but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I found it to be very dry (not a bad thing) and quite crisp (also not a bad thing) but it had a really funky aftertaste. I would call it acidic, appley and almost solvent-like. I tried it several times and came up with the same taste time after time. I cleansed my palette, gave it a rest and tried again a few minutes later. Same thing. If not for the aftertaste I feel like I would really enjoy it.
Was it just a funky bottle? Should I give it another try? Or is it really meant to taste this way? From how much other folks were talking it up I feel like I'm a bad beer lover for not liking it. :(
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After hearing many of my brewing and beer loving friends sing the praises of Orval I tracked a bottle of it down. I cracked it a few minutes ago and must say, I was not only underwhelmed but I was genuinely disappointed by it. I found it to be very dry (not a bad thing) and quite crisp (also not a bad thing) but it had a really funky aftertaste. I would call it acidic, appley and almost solvent-like. I tried it several times and came up with the same taste time after time. I cleansed my palette, gave it a rest and tried again a few minutes later. Same thing. If not for the aftertaste I feel like I would really enjoy it.
Was it just a funky bottle? Should I give it another try? Or is it really meant to taste this way? From how much other folks were talking it up I feel like I'm a bad beer lover for not liking it. :(
It is meant to taste that way :)
That being said, the amount of funk, acidity, bitterness, and even malt color vary from year to year and depending on how long it has been aged. The "barnyard" funk of brettanomyces is the common thread in every bottle, though. It can be an acquired taste; you may want to try other beers that have brett in them to compare.
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Fresh in Belgium, they are very different. Some say best at 6 months of age, which might be as early as they can be found here. At the Kulminator in Antwerp, you can do a vertical tasting!
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Belgian beers are my absolute favorites, but the taste from one to another can vary greatly. I like Chimay, love Koenigshoven, don't like Orval, really love Malhuer. Its all relative to your own taste. Try different ones, you'll find something you like...
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i hated my first and loved all the ones after.
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Try another one in a year. And try some of the lighter ones like Boulevard Saison Brett or Goose Island Matilda in the meantime. Orval is one of my very favorite beers but as stated before it's an acquired taste not everybody gets into. And that's the way it should be.
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Orval, for what its worth, is also a beautiful abbey to visit. I've actually only ever had the beer at the abbey, never tried it back here once I got back to the states. Figured I'd be either disappointed or otherwise strangely surprised.
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Just because it's funky doesn't mean it's Belgian. I've had bottles of Orval that have been terribly off. It shouldn't smell like a urinal cake. >:(
Look at my avatar. That's a fresh Orval (which means 6 months old) at the cafe right next to the monastery. It's an absolutely spectacular beer. But you have to enjoy the taste of Brettanomyces. Brett is variable, and you have to be able to appreciate the range of flavors it can produce. It shouldn't be solventy.
I don't know what other beers you like, but if you aren't used to some of those flavors, you should probably start on a slightly less aggressive beer so you can develop an appreciation (or decide you just don't like) those flavors. That's not a knock; it's just how you learn to try new beers. Ease your way into them if they have unfamiliar flavors.
This beer can take awhile to warm up to. But it's worth it.
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Another post about > "Gods HomeBrew" - Tim Webb
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=4966.0
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It's an absolutely spectacular beer. But you have to enjoy the taste of Brettanomyces. Brett is variable, and you have to be able to appreciate the range of flavors it can produce. It shouldn't be solventy.
Absolutely this^^^^ - if you are unaccustomed to the flavors of brettanomyces it can be shocking to the taste buds. The longer it ages the more the brett comes through. Have to admit, though, I never have had a bad bottle of Orval. One of my favorite beer. Period.
One thing I would recommend. Don't bring expectations to the table when trying belgians. Let them taste the way they tastes.
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I've discovered that I like a little Brett, but not too much. And therefore, I don't like Orval much at all. There are points at which Brett character is great, but then given more age it just seems to go BAD.
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Dave, if you get to Belgium, try it young. If you don't like it then, then you don't like it.
I've given up on trying to drink DeKoninck in the states. So I just drink it in Belgium. Happily.
Fun DeKoninck story. OK, you know how to use hand signs to indicate numbers? Well, they use different signs in the US and Europe. "One" isn't your index finger, it's your thumb. So when I wanted two DeKonincks, I used the "peace sign" (or V-for-victory sign). I wasn't using the thumb, so they assumed it was there and gave me 3 beers. Extra DeKoninck, never a bad idea.
If you want to confuse a European, use the "catcher's sign for three" (make an OK, but show the three lower fingers). They have absolutely no idea what that means.
In retrospect, I'm probably lucky I didn't get stabbed.
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Who knows? You could have pulled a "Nixon."
http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/22179.html (http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/22179.html)
When we were in Cabo San Lucas for our honeymoon, we pulled into a Cantina advertising 3 for 1 margaritas.
I placed the order for one margarita (thinking my wife and I could put away the 3 between us). They brought 6.
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When we were in Cabo San Lucas for our honeymoon, we pulled into a Cantina advertising 3 for 1 margaritas.
I placed the order for one margarita (thinking my wife and I could put away the 3 between us). They brought 6.
Certainly, you're not complaining, are you ?
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Nixon? No, I think this is more like it:
(http://www.friedalive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/black_sabbath_vol4.jpg)
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Just because it's funky doesn't mean it's Belgian. I've had bottles of Orval that have been terribly off. It shouldn't smell like a urinal cake. >:(
Absolutely. Any beer can be off sometimes, especially when it comes from overseas and wasn't stored properly.
I'd keep trying to see if the one you got was representative.
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Orval is one of the most intriguing beers I have ever had the pleasure of tasting. It has a "barnyard funk" that is truly very unique. I have had it several times and each time it was better than the last indicating an aquired taste on my part. I would love to sample it fresh in Belgium and someday.
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When we were in Cabo San Lucas for our honeymoon, we pulled into a Cantina advertising 3 for 1 margaritas.
I placed the order for one margarita (thinking my wife and I could put away the 3 between us). They brought 6.
Certainly, you're not complaining, are you ?
Not at all!
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Who knows? You could have pulled a "Nixon."
http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/22179.html (http://blogs.static.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/22179.html)
highly entertaining article, thanks :)
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FWIW, If you do like this brett, I gotta say that the strain is an agressive monster
and it only takes the dregs from a couple bottles and not a lot of time to impart this
character to your homebrew. If you do innoculate any of your beer with this, be
extra diligent on the disenfecting regimen when your MT beer container is needing to
be cleaned following inhabitation by this strain else your brewery could get overrun.
As for me, I like this brett. 8)
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I have found that I prefer it younger rather than older. I like brett character, but not so much as being clobbered by it. Blending is a good thing. ;)
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FWIW, If you do like this brett, I gotta say that the strain is an agressive monster
and it only takes the dregs from a couple bottles and not a lot of time to impart this
character to your homebrew. If you do innoculate any of your beer with this, be
extra diligent on the disenfecting regimen when your MT beer container is needing to
be cleaned following inhabitation by this strain else your brewery could get overrun.
As for me, I like this brett. 8)
Brett is just a yeast and normal cleaning and sanitation is all that's needed for brewing beer. Where it takes ocver is in wineries that used wooden barrels-it will inhabit pores in th wood and be impossible to remove. But for us homebrewers no extra steps are needed.
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FWIW, If you do like this brett, I gotta say that the strain is an agressive monster
and it only takes the dregs from a couple bottles and not a lot of time to impart this
character to your homebrew. If you do innoculate any of your beer with this, be
extra diligent on the disenfecting regimen when your MT beer container is needing to
be cleaned following inhabitation by this strain else your brewery could get overrun.
As for me, I like this brett. 8)
Brett is just a yeast and normal cleaning and sanitation is all that's needed for brewing beer. Where it takes ocver is in wineries that used wooden barrels-it will inhabit pores in th wood and be impossible to remove. But for us homebrewers no extra steps are needed.
Ok Just be sure to clean all your lines and faucets and the like because it will be noticeable if you do not do due diligence
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I had a Mikkeller "Bretanomyces series" last night. It reminded me strongly of orval. Absolutely loved it. The brett character reminded me of orval but was stronger. The beer was 8% (which is a good bit stronger) but very drinkable. Seek it out if you can.
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All this talk of Orval made me thirsty ;D
Bottled 7-22-10
(http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/My%20brew%20pics/bottle%20beer/bottlingDate.jpg)
(http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/UknowWho2u/My%20brew%20pics/bottle%20beer/Orval41611.jpg)
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All this talk of Orval made me thirsty ;D
Are you growing some yeast from the dregs...just thought I'd ask since you have the aluminum foil capping the bottle.
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Look at my avatar. That's a fresh Orval (which means 6 months old) at the cafe right next to the monastery. It's an absolutely spectacular beer.
Ah hah! That explains the orgasmic look on your face. I though there might have been something else going on out of view... ;)
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Maybe you could or would steer us down that quirky road to Oval nirvana.... ??? I would enjoy trying to approximate the beer.
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
We have a hobbit posting on the forum!
Welcome Samwise!
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Brew Like a Monk has a lot of details about how Orval is brewed. Anything additional you'd like to add would be very welcome, of course.
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Maybe you could or would steer us down that quirky road to Oval nirvana.... ??? I would enjoy trying to approximate the beer.
I'll try to get the vitals across.
Malt is 87% pils and 13% caramel 100EBC. Mash at 65C for an hour, then raise to 72C for 20 minutes. They use RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum added. Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.
Kettle hops are strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition. Didn't get IBUs or addition times, which is the biggest hole in what I have. No whirlpool. The wort is centrifuged to separate break material.
Fermentation starts at 15C and rises to 23-24C. One week total and freshly propagated yeast is used every time. Single strain for primary ( belgian bastogne should be the right one).
Then the beer is transfered to lagering tanks and dry hopped for two weeks at 15C with 400g/hl of strisselspalt and hersbrucker. After that, the primary yeast is centrifuged out and 3 million cells/ml are added back for bottle conditioning, with a small percentage of that being brett, but the majority is the primary strain. They also add nitrogen at bottling. They then condition the beer warm for three weeks before shipping it out.
Wish I had more specifics about the hop schedule. I Think the IBUs are lower than you would expect, because the beer is so dry. Still a pretty hoppy beer when fresh though. Easily the hoppiest trappist beer.
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Wow, thanks! That was great info.
What is the purpose of the nitrogen at bottling and how is it added? Do they saturate the beer using a sintered stone or top off the bottles or what?
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Are you growing some yeast from the dregs...just thought I'd ask since you have the aluminum foil capping the bottle.
Yes, I do a test batch with most beers bought in Belgium, some are good & others less good.
Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.
I still kick myself for not getting a sample of the spring water at the monastery, its a open air spring.
Should of, could of but No! I forgot to carry in my water bottle while taking the tour. :-[
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Wow, thanks! That was great info.
What is the purpose of the nitrogen at bottling and how is it added? Do they saturate the beer using a sintered stone or top off the bottles or what?
I really don't know. I assumed they added it to get a better head when the beer is poured but I don't know how. I would guess they add it in-line to the filler with a stone. Maybe it allows the beer to foam quickly after jetting so that they can cap on foam and reduce oxygen in the bottle and has nothing to do with the head. All speculation on my part. This is the first time I have heard of a brewery doing this (except nitro cans and kegs).
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It kind of threw me, too, because the nitro in cans works because of higher pressure forced through a small orifice. I can't see how that could happen in a bottle conditioned product with no widget. Maybe it's for capping on foam, but that is also usually used in an already-carbonated beer. A bottle-conditioned beer would scavenge the oxygen in the head space as part of its work, wouldn't it?
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could the nitrogen merely be an attempt to prevent oxidation. Just blasting the headspace with nitrogen before capping? Why nitrogen instead of just co2 I dunno. Just a thought. Any inert gas could be used I suppose.
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When my Siebel class visited the Monastery, we got several cases for the drive back to Munich. Good times on that bus... Orval is one of the true world classics to me, and I've never had a beer in its "style" that matched it. Pretty much got the whole recipe and process from Jean Marie Roc (sp?) when I was at the brewery so I'm going to attempt a clone sometime in the future. They definitely have some quirky processes that go into it. Definitely one of the most fascinating beers in the world.
Maybe you could or would steer us down that quirky road to Oval nirvana.... ??? I would enjoy trying to approximate the beer.
I'll try to get the vitals across.
Malt is 87% pils and 13% caramel 100EBC. Mash at 65C for an hour, then raise to 72C for 20 minutes. They use RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum added. Not sure on exact levels, but it's supposed to emulate the water from the original spring at the monastery.
Kettle hops are strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition. Didn't get IBUs or addition times, which is the biggest hole in what I have. No whirlpool. The wort is centrifuged to separate break material.
Fermentation starts at 15C and rises to 23-24C. One week total and freshly propagated yeast is used every time. Single strain for primary ( belgian bastogne should be the right one).
Then the beer is transfered to lagering tanks and dry hopped for two weeks at 15C with 400g/hl of strisselspalt and hersbrucker. After that, the primary yeast is centrifuged out and 3 million cells/ml are added back for bottle conditioning, with a small percentage of that being brett, but the majority is the primary strain. They also add nitrogen at bottling. They then condition the beer warm for three weeks before shipping it out.
Wish I had more specifics about the hop schedule. I Think the IBUs are lower than you would expect, because the beer is so dry. Still a pretty hoppy beer when fresh though. Easily the hoppiest trappist beer.
Thanks for posting this years ago. I wanted to see if you shed some info on the following questions:
You mention 2 malts: Pisner (assuming Belgian/French) and caramel at 100EBC (~51 SRM). While I can't find a malt with exactly that color, I was wondering if you knew if Caravienne or Caramunich would be best? Or maybe some combination of higher and lower color caramel malts? Caramunich seems to be about 56 SRM, which isn't all that far off, but Caravienne seems to be highlighting by another respected Orval clone recipe (http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=40289&hilit=orval&start=15#p375454), even though it is much lighter in color (22 SRM = 43-44 EBC).
Orval's website (http://www.orval.be/en/58/How-Orval-beer-is-made) discusses hops in a couple of areas, but mentions that they flavor their beer with 3 hops:
"Bavarian Hallertau, the Slovenian Styrian Golding and the Alsacian Strisselspalt."
You state "strisselspalt, hersbrucker, willamette, and tradition." Any insight there?
Cheers.
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And try some of the lighter ones like Boulevard Saison Brett or Goose Island Matilda in the meantime.
Boulevard Saison Brett isn't light after 6 months. If you like barnyard lay some of it down for a while.
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Thanks for bumping this old post. This is great info here.
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Definitely use the caravienne for the 13% malt addition.
Dry hop with Strisselspalt. This I know for a fact, when I visited the brewery on October 2013.
Here are the dry hopped bales of Strisselspalt
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HDPmbHdkYJo/VQdP93AcGmI/AAAAAAAACYs/gV5kUp3XJp8/w1100-h825-no/20131008_101020.jpg)
And, going back to the OP, Orval does not travel that well in a bottle. I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
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But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Hope to find out first-hand. I'm going to Belgium in May for 12 days.
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Definitely use the caravienne for the 13% malt addition.
Can you share why you recommend definitely using caravienne? Have you tried both caravienne and caramunich, and then came to that conclusion? Have you tried a combination of the two like others suggest? When I run it in my software, it calculates to about 6.1 SRM for the color with caravienne, which seems light for Orval. The malt flavor profile is more important that the color, so any supporting insight you have in that department would be helpful.
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I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
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I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
I think I have been to that pub.
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I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
I think I have been to that pub.
De Heeren van Liedekercke? Top Belgian sour beers place...
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I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
I think I have been to that pub.
De Heeren van Liedekercke? Top Belgian sour beers place...
De Kulminator in Antwerp had vintages of Orval, as they got older the price went up 0.10 Euro/year.
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I have been burned quite a few times with old bottles. But in Belgium, it is Heaven on Earth.
Funny, in Belgium we age the bottles in our cellars. I know at least one pub where you can ask for a bottle from a specific year...
I've been to many pubs in Belgium where they have multiple ages of Orval for sale. The price increases that I saw was usually at least 1 Euro as they got older (sometimes more), and they usually were in 6 months to 1 year increments.
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I've had 2 bottles of Orval to date and they both tasted different but delicious nonetheless.