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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: kramerog on April 07, 2011, 02:50:18 PM

Title: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on April 07, 2011, 02:50:18 PM
I gather that Berliner Weisses are commercially or traditionally made by decoction and without boiling.  What rests would be done or are necessary?  I'm thinking of doing a single decoction for ease.  Also I'm specifically concerned about saccharification.  Don't I risk pasteurizing and killing off the lactobacilli by doing a saccharification rest?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: nofunsally on May 11, 2011, 01:45:02 PM
I've had success (i.e. it tastes good) with the following (almost no boil):

Lactobacillus:
I use a pure lactobacillus culture (one smack pack) to make a 800 ml starter (1.050) (stir plate, 100F) 2 days prior to fermentation.

The Mash:
Single decoction, 150F with hops  in the mash.  After thirty minutes I pull enough (enough to reach mash out) thick mash and bring to a boil. Main mash gets a total of 60 minutes. Add thick mash to main mash to reach mash out.  Collect wort. I cool to 115F and pitch lacto. I give it a day head start and then pitch the yeast.   

Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on May 12, 2011, 01:11:53 AM
I give it a day head start and then pitch the yeast.   

Do you make a starter for the yeast too or are you just letting pack swell. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: nofunsally on May 12, 2011, 01:16:33 AM
No starter for the yeast.  I like an aggressive BW.  It is has been well received at my homebrew club.

Cheers,
Michael
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dtblank on May 12, 2011, 01:28:47 AM
I used the no-boil method, with single infusion mash at 154, and used the wyeast berliner blend.  I would suggest pitching some extra lacto culture, I didn't get quite the sourness that i wanted.  It did end up as one of my favorite beers however, very refreshing, with a lil brett character. In a comp one judge noted some phenols ( clove)  but I haven't been able to pick that up or anybody else that has tried it.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dee on May 25, 2011, 03:34:37 PM
After years of trying to keep bacteria out of my brauhaus you've talked me into making a Berliner Weisse.  I finally broke down and purchased some bacteria-only equiptment and I plan on using the no boil method stated above.

My questions for the Berliner aficionados are, does it really matter what yeast I use?  Other than attenuation levels, would the yeast matter?  Can you taste any yeast character beyond the sour.  I have fresh harvested WHP 515 Antwerp Ale available and it is very neutral even at high temps.  I thought that would be my best choice.  I have WY1007 ready as well.  What about a weizen yeast like WB06 or WLP380?  Would citrus zest in a hop bag after kegging come through.  Thanks for you input!       
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: tomsawyer on May 25, 2011, 03:40:19 PM
I don't think the yeast really matters too much, its a small beer and will ferment out quickly.  The tart flavor is out front, and if you drink it with the woodruff or raspberry syrup that is even more out front.  Character from yeast is going to be subtle.

You really don't need bacteria-only equipment, its quite possible to sanitize things adequately.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: alikocho on May 25, 2011, 06:17:42 PM
I have a related question - how do I calculate the IBUs for the hop addition with no boil?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: tomsawyer on May 25, 2011, 08:01:03 PM
I have a related question - how do I calculate the IBUs for the hop addition with no boil?

I've seen where people boil a portion of the wort with hops to get some bitterness, I think thats what I did on my last Berlinner (its been a year).  It isn't a real hoppy style anyway.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: tom on May 25, 2011, 08:51:03 PM
zymurgy a month or 2 ago had an article on "sour starters".  Kind of like doing a sour mash, just smaller.  I added that along with the lacto and bacteria.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on May 26, 2011, 02:14:32 AM
I have a related question - how do I calculate the IBUs for the hop addition with no boil?

If you do a decoction as in decocting to get to mash out, you can add the hops to the part decocted and calculate the IBUs.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on May 26, 2011, 01:27:40 PM
For those doing single infusions are you using pale ale malts or well-modified pilsener malts?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: alikocho on May 26, 2011, 04:08:06 PM
I have a related question - how do I calculate the IBUs for the hop addition with no boil?

If you do a decoction as in decocting to get to mash out, you can add the hops to the part decocted and calculate the IBUs.

That makes sense. Do i work out total IBUs based on the volume of what I extract in the decocted and boiled portion, or for the total volume (i.e. do I calculate for more IBUs from the decoction on the basis of dilution later?)

Sorry if I'm confusing things.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: hubie on May 26, 2011, 10:58:20 PM
The tart flavor is out front, and if you drink it with the woodruff or raspberry syrup that is even more out front.

So where does one get woodruff syrup (in the US)?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on May 27, 2011, 03:42:29 AM
I have a related question - how do I calculate the IBUs for the hop addition with no boil?

If you do a decoction as in decocting to get to mash out, you can add the hops to the part decocted and calculate the IBUs.

That makes sense. Do i work out total IBUs based on the volume of what I extract in the decocted and boiled portion, or for the total volume (i.e. do I calculate for more IBUs from the decoction on the basis of dilution later?)

The volume in the IBU calculation should be the boiled portion at least that's what I would do.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: gordonstrong on May 27, 2011, 11:11:10 AM
The tart flavor is out front, and if you drink it with the woodruff or raspberry syrup that is even more out front.

So where does one get woodruff syrup (in the US)?

I got some at Jungle Jim's in Cincinnati.  Look for a place that specializes in German foods.  It might be labeled 'Waldmeister', which is sort of a cool name (Forest Master).  Or grow your own and infuse it in a simple syrup, like making mojitos or mint juleps.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: tomsawyer on May 27, 2011, 08:20:16 PM
Or grow your own and infuse it in a simple syrup, like making mojitos or mint juleps.

Northern Brewer sells dried woodruff, I suppose this could be used to infuse a syrup although you'd probably need to add some green food coloring.  Its supposed to give a pleasant vanilla aroma.  I thinkI have some but only ever used it once in an attempt at a grozet that didn't turn out.

The wife has been using DaVinci syrups in her weizens, they have many flavors including raspberry but no woodruff.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dee on June 21, 2011, 01:49:16 PM
I'm just reporting back my first Berliner Weiss results.  I was pleased overall and this is the easiest, quickest and most refreshing beer I've brewed.  I didn't get quite the sourness I was expecting and that's probably due to only giving the lacto a 24 hour head start.  I've already kegged it and was wondering if I could add another tube of lacto, take it off carb and warm it up to get a little more sourness.  I could brew another one I guess and let it go a little longer.  I actually pitched WB-06 at 75 degrees and none of the normal clove/banana came through.  This is is a very interesting style and I will be brewing this often.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: tschmidlin on June 21, 2011, 03:50:19 PM
You've brewed "the easiest, quickest and most refreshing beer" you've ever made.  I say don't mess with it, take notes and enjoy what you've produced.  Play with the next batch.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dee on July 20, 2011, 12:26:47 PM
I've had success (i.e. it tastes good) with the following (almost no boil):

Lactobacillus:
I use a pure lactobacillus culture (one smack pack) to make a 800 ml starter (1.050) (stir plate, 100F) 2 days prior to fermentation.

The Mash:
Single decoction, 150F with hops  in the mash.  After thirty minutes I pull enough (enough to reach mash out) thick mash and bring to a boil. Main mash gets a total of 60 minutes. Add thick mash to main mash to reach mash out.  Collect wort. I cool to 115F and pitch lacto. I give it a day head start and then pitch the yeast.   

Cheers,
Mike

I'm ready to brew another Berliner Weisse and wanted to make sure I understood your procedure.  You are making a lacto-only starter and then pitching that a day in advance of the yeast correct?.  I'd pitched the lacto and let it go for day on my last attempt but I didn't make a starter.  I'd hoped for a little more sourness on my previous attempt but nonetheless, it was very tasty.  Am I correct in assuming the lacto starter will markedly increase the sourness?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: nateo on July 20, 2011, 05:04:42 PM
IIRC lacto is inhibited at over 7 IBU. I wonder if making a hop tea and adding that a day or two after the lacto culture would increase the sourness?
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: eltharyon on July 23, 2011, 06:12:51 PM
The tart flavor is out front, and if you drink it with the woodruff or raspberry syrup that is even more out front.

So where does one get woodruff syrup (in the US)?

Was just looking for some myself.
http://www.germandeli.com/4054600095139.html
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dee on August 02, 2011, 09:18:18 PM
For anyone still following this thread, making a lacto-only starter is the key to this style.  I made a 1 liter starter and kept it near 100 degrees with a heating pad and let it go for 2 days on the stir plate.  The finished product has the crisp and lively twang that is the hallmark of this style.  You can't beat the cost of less than $2 a gallon either.  Love me some Berliner Weisse!
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on August 02, 2011, 10:33:19 PM
For anyone still following this thread, making a lacto-only starter is the key to this style.  I made a 1 liter starter and kept it near 100 degrees with a heating pad and let it go for 2 days on the stir plate.  The finished product has the crisp and lively twang that is the hallmark of this style.  You can't beat the cost of less than $2 a gallon either.  Love me some Berliner Weisse!

Thanks for the update Dee.

I brewed my Berliner Weiss this weekend.  It's a no boil which I batch sparged with water at 70F.  Efficiency was 80% confirming the suspicions of some that cool water would not effect the efficiency of batch sparging significantly.  I pitched the lactobacillus at 104 F straight from the "smack pack."  I pitched a yeast starter made from the wort the following day.  I'll report back later. 

When making a lacto starter, it probably isn't particularly helpful to do it on a stir plate as lactobacillus likes low levels of dissolved oxygen.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on August 12, 2011, 03:13:23 AM
For anyone still following this thread, making a lacto-only starter is the key to this style.  I made a 1 liter starter and kept it near 100 degrees with a heating pad and let it go for 2 days on the stir plate.  The finished product has the crisp and lively twang that is the hallmark of this style. 

Just tasted mine, not sour enough.  I didn't make a lacto-only starter, but I did pitch lacto straight from the smack pack and pitched an ale starter nearly 24 hours later.  I may end up putting some lactic acid in to get to the desired acidity.  Oh well, there is always next time.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: dee on August 12, 2011, 12:29:50 PM
If you make a lacto starter you will get sour.  Trust me.
Title: Re: Mash schedule for no boil Berliner Weiss
Post by: kramerog on August 13, 2011, 05:51:23 PM
If you make a lacto starter you will get sour.  Trust me.

In addition, I'm thinking of doing a rest at 132 to produce more glucose in the wort, which is the only stuff that lacto delbruekii eats, or adding some corn sugar.