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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: jamminbrew on April 26, 2011, 12:31:46 AM

Title: Forgot mash-out
Post by: jamminbrew on April 26, 2011, 12:31:46 AM
What can I say?  Ooops.  Forgot to mash out at the end of the mash. I mashed for 90 mins at 150*, sparged with 180* water, but neglected to mash out.  I did the boil right after sparging, but I don't know what effect this will have.  What are the possible effects of not mashing out?
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 12:38:44 AM
You probably won't know the difference.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: Hokerer on April 26, 2011, 12:58:26 AM
Agreed, shouldn't be any problem.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: corkybstewart on April 26, 2011, 01:28:57 AM
Be glad for the time you saved-I almost never do a mashout anymore.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: jamminbrew on April 26, 2011, 01:33:49 AM
Right on, thanks guys! Good to know.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: a10t2 on April 26, 2011, 01:38:06 AM
Are you batch sparging or fly sparging?

Regardless, when mashing for high fermentability like that, I don't think you'd want to mash out.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 02:39:02 AM
Are you batch sparging or fly sparging?

Regardless, when mashing for high fermentability like that, I don't think you'd want to mash out.

Why would you not want to mash out when striving for high fermentability? That doesn't make sense to me. I do it and get great attenuation.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: a10t2 on April 26, 2011, 03:13:16 AM
The whole idea behind a mash-out is to fix the fermentability of the wort before starting the sparge. If you're trying to maximize attenuation, some extra time at mash temperature could only help.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 03:21:38 AM
The whole idea behind a mash-out is to fix the fermentability of the wort before starting the sparge. If you're trying to maximize attenuation, some extra time at mash temperature could only help.

OK I see where you're going. I assumed that anyone going after high fermentability would have extended their mash times, so that little extra mash time wouldn't make much difference.  I also like to mash out, because it heats the mash a little, so more sugars are rinsed during the sparge. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.  ;D
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: euge on April 26, 2011, 05:12:26 AM
Mash temp far more critical. Usually my mashout doesn't take it into the denature zone when I do 12 gallon batches. IIRC Jamil and JP were kinda iffy on the "loosening" of the sugar concept. But, it makes sense to me. :D Otherwise I don't see it affecting the wort profile.

But it is worth discussing. And, does it matter if the wort sits cooling in grants for any period of time?



Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: malzig on April 26, 2011, 11:15:25 AM
Jamil and JP were kinda iffy on the "loosening" of the sugar concept. But, it makes sense to me. :D
The idea that a high temperature mashout would increase the amount of dissolved sugars was a popular opinion for years, but it hasn't held up to experimentation.  It can give the illusion of increasing dissolved sugars if you haven't reached 100% conversion at the end of the mash, however.  Those guys never seem to talk about research, though, so I don't know if they actually pay attention to the experiments.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: denny on April 26, 2011, 03:22:06 PM
Jamil and JP were kinda iffy on the "loosening" of the sugar concept. But, it makes sense to me. :D
The idea that a high temperature mashout would increase the amount of dissolved sugars was a popular opinion for years, but it hasn't held up to experimentation.  It can give the illusion of increasing dissolved sugars if you haven't reached 100% conversion at the end of the mash, however.  Those guys never seem to talk about research, though, so I don't know if they actually pay attention to the experiments.

Yeah, what Kai found is not that it isn't reduced viscosity that's increasing efficiency, but rather it's increased mash conversion.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: gordonstrong on April 26, 2011, 03:24:18 PM
Isn't that a circular definition?  You get better efficiency because there's better conversion?  What other kind of efficiency is there?
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: denny on April 26, 2011, 03:36:34 PM
Isn't that a circular definition?  You get better efficiency because there's better conversion?  What other kind of efficiency is there?

Kai divides things into conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency.  Effectively, how efficient your mash is, and how efficient you are at lautering out the wort.  I dunno, makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 04:41:48 PM
Isn't that a circular definition?  You get better efficiency because there's better conversion?  What other kind of efficiency is there?

Kai divides things into conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency.  Effectively, how efficient your mash is, and how efficient you are at lautering out the wort.  I dunno, makes sense to me.

I agree. Given plenty of time for complete conversion, a mash out would only improve lauter efficiency. I always go at least 90 minutes for mash time, but more often I go 2 hours. After that seems to be diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: a10t2 on April 26, 2011, 04:59:56 PM
Given plenty of time for complete conversion, a mash out would only improve lauter efficiency.

Assuming 100% conversion before beginning lautering, wouldn't the lauter efficiency depend only on how much water is run off, and in what increments?
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: morticaixavier on April 26, 2011, 05:01:15 PM
Given plenty of time for complete conversion, a mash out would only improve lauter efficiency.

Assuming 100% conversion before beginning lautering, wouldn't the lauter efficiency depend only on how much water is run off, and in what increments?

That's what I have understood to this point. That's why batch sparging results in small loss of efficiency isn't it?
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 05:13:50 PM
Given plenty of time for complete conversion, a mash out would only improve lauter efficiency.

Assuming 100% conversion before beginning lautering, wouldn't the lauter efficiency depend only on how much water is run off, and in what increments?

Well, I think a mash out and sparging with water to keep it just below 170F helps a lot, at least it has in my experience.

As for adding more water, sure you can keep going ( within limits, of course), but after a while you'll spend more time and money on a longer boil than it's probably worth,
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: denny on April 26, 2011, 05:21:46 PM
That's what I have understood to this point. That's why batch sparging results in small loss of efficiency isn't it?

Maybe, but that's hard to imagine after getting 96% mash efficiency on my brew last Sun.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: a10t2 on April 26, 2011, 06:50:53 PM
That's what I have understood to this point. That's why batch sparging results in small loss of efficiency isn't it?

Right. The more you divide up the sparge into smaller and smaller batches, the more thoroughly it's possible to rinse the grain bed. When fly sparging, the number of "batches" is infinite, so efficiency is maximized.

Well, I think a mash out and sparging with water to keep it just below 170F helps a lot, at least it has in my experience.

That's what I was wondering about - once the mash has fully converted, I'm not sure what the mechanism would be that would improve lauter efficiency based on temperature. Kai even did a batch sparge using cold (15°C) water and the efficiency compared to the hot sparge was about the same. It sounds like your results were different, though. Were the batches otherwise identical?
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on April 26, 2011, 06:58:49 PM
Quote
Were the batches otherwise identical?

Yes, they were. I've thought about going back to fly sparging, for the reasons you mentioned, but batch sparging is just less trouble with my setup.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: malzig on April 27, 2011, 12:30:51 AM
Well, I think a mash out and sparging with water to keep it just below 170F helps a lot, at least it has in my experience.
Sure, a 170°F "mashout" can improve efficiency if you haven't reached 100% conversion, but it doesn't seem to matter if you've already achieved 100% conversion at the end of the sparge.

I have pretty much adopted a mash temperature sparge routine and get around the maximum lauter efficiency mathematically possible for the volumes that I use.  I get the same for a 170°F sparge.  I can't really speak to very high gravity beers, where you might expect to see more effect on viscosity, but for normal gravity beers any effect of high temperature is apparently on pushing saccharification to completion.
Isn't that a circular definition?  You get better efficiency because there's better conversion?  What other kind of efficiency is there?
The difference is in getting higher efficiency by improving conversion or by sparging more stringently, which risks adverse effects on flavor.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: tubercle on April 27, 2011, 12:42:45 AM
Mash, batch sparge, boil.
 
 Ain't got time for the details.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: Kit B on April 28, 2011, 06:28:19 PM
Mash, batch sparge, boil.
 
 Ain't got time for the details.


Amen...Except, I double batch sparge.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: denny on April 28, 2011, 06:56:50 PM
Mash, batch sparge, boil.
 
 Ain't got time for the details.


Amen...Except, I double batch sparge.

Then you're wasting time that could be spent on something like drinking!  ;)
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: dannyjed on April 28, 2011, 10:58:38 PM
I don't mash out anymore(thanks to advice from this forum) and I haven't seen any decrease in efficiency.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: Beer Monger on April 29, 2011, 05:37:41 PM
I've never mashed out.  It's difficult when your mash tun is a cooler.  The only way to raise the temp is to add more hot water. 

Not mashing out has never seemed to be a problem for me.  I'll have to try batch sparging at some point, though, see how much time I can save in my brew day.  :) 
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: malzig on April 30, 2011, 12:06:16 PM
The only way to raise the temp is to add more hot water.
Not the only way.  If you really want to do a mashout, you can draw off some wort, heat it to a boil and add that back.  I never use decoctions to add flavor, but I often use them (without an etended boil) to raise the temperature of my mash.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: Beer Monger on May 02, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
The only way to raise the temp is to add more hot water.
Not the only way.  If you really want to do a mashout, you can draw off some wort, heat it to a boil and add that back.  I never use decoctions to add flavor, but I often use them (without an etended boil) to raise the temperature of my mash.
True... but I just don't bother. 
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: SpanishCastleAle on May 02, 2011, 03:00:53 PM
I agree. Given plenty of time for complete conversion, a mash out would only improve lauter efficiency. I always go at least 90 minutes for mash time, but more often I go 2 hours. After that seems to be diminishing returns.
When I read the OP the first thing I thought was that after a 90 min mash @ 150* F, a mash-out wouldn't make that much difference.  I often mash for much shorter times (like 45 min but only when mashing at higher temps) and in that case I see a fementability difference...no mash-out = more fermentability for that given mash.  I fly-sparge...if at all.

Recently I've been reducing my sparge volume more and more (to the point of no-sparge) and surprisingly have not suffered much loss in efficiency.  So these days I'm mashing REALLY thin and only sparging a gallon or two and still getting ~73% brewhouse efficiency.  I had it up to 92% at one point but intentionally dialed it back, there were a few over-sparged batches in there.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on May 02, 2011, 04:25:33 PM
I always do a mash out and I never have a stuck sparge. Whether it really helps or not doesn't really matter to me, because I'm not playing with success.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: cheba420 on May 02, 2011, 11:52:34 PM
Another question would be why mash out?? Unless you are trying to create exactly the same beer every single time, seems like an unnecessary step. I'll get that wort up to 170 in no time in the kettle!
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: newrocset on May 09, 2011, 06:43:42 AM
I read that the increase in temp for the mash out is to lower the viscosity of your liquid so you get a better flow during sparge....and this makes sense as it would give a better rinse to your grains.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: ccarlson on May 09, 2011, 12:39:44 PM
I read that the increase in temp for the mash out is to lower the viscosity of your liquid so you get a better flow during sparge....and this makes sense as it would give a better rinse to your grains.

That's always been my experience. I haven't had a stuck sparge in years.
Title: Re: Forgot mash-out
Post by: denny on May 09, 2011, 03:41:06 PM
I read that the increase in temp for the mash out is to lower the viscosity of your liquid so you get a better flow during sparge....and this makes sense as it would give a better rinse to your grains.

It may make sense, but it's been proven to not actually make that difference.