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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: tommeier on April 27, 2011, 02:01:57 AM

Title: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 27, 2011, 02:01:57 AM

Disappointed to give the news, but our homebrew legalization effort failed, again.  In its fourth year.    Final corrected tally was 27 yeas and 47 nays.  It was not even close, so it is going to be very hard to get support next year.

Alabama Homebrewers are all still felons.  The state can take possession of all buildings and land on the property where they made the homebrew. If convicted of homebrewing, even in a wet county, the minimum sentence is a felony with 1 year hard labor...   And Alabama legislators are ok with that.

They say we should be thinking of our chillrens and ought not to be exposing them to 100 gallons of beer in our home and throwing underage parties.  They say without a license who is going to make sure we don't make people sick.   They say we are a low class of people.   They say where I come from we call that boot legging.   



Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: quest4watneys on April 27, 2011, 02:15:11 AM
I'm from Indiana where our laws are pretty liberal and it's mind-boggling to me that there is such disparity in the law throughout the country. I've brewed several batches of home brew and never had any inclination to throw an underage party! Don't give up the fight!
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: dannyjed on April 27, 2011, 02:16:25 AM
Sorry to hear about this >:(  Sounds like these legislators need some education on homebrewing.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: maxieboy on April 27, 2011, 02:23:27 AM
Unbelievable...  >:(
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tumarkin on April 27, 2011, 02:23:49 AM
This has got to be incredibly discouraging. Really sorry to hear this, but keep going, this needs to be changed.

What can we do as the AHA to help? I know the approach is generally to try and rally local voters to write/call their legislators, but maybe next time we should organize a nation wide campaign. The eyes of America are on you, Alabama.  
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: jamminbrew on April 27, 2011, 02:27:36 AM
It's amazing how close minded people can be. Never ceases to amaze me. Never underestimte the power of stupidity, especially when they are in high places.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: passlaku on April 27, 2011, 02:31:04 AM
This is depressing. These social conservatives will eventually drive us all out of this state. 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 03:55:46 AM
Really sorry to hear this Tom.  That is really unbelievable to me.  What is to stop you from buying a keg and throwing an underage party?  These legislators are an embarrassment.  :(
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: jamminbrew on April 27, 2011, 03:57:57 AM
I'll bet that every legislator who voted against this bill all drink wine...
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 27, 2011, 04:22:13 AM

Mark, a National Campaign is more likely to just tick off legislators.  Last year the beer distributors stopped our bill to put their thumbprint on it, but after working things out with them, they were not against us this year, and we managed to actually come up for a vote.

This was a straight-up vote with no external political influence on the vote this time, that we know of.  That is why it was such a huge setback.. It is going to be hard to get a bill sponsor next year, and I'd say we are probably now years away from passing.     Unless we get a $100,000 donation to make campaign contributions I don't see anything changing next year.



Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 04:24:51 AM
Tom, have you tried organizing with the home wine makers in Alabama to get more support?  This sucks man, sorry.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 27, 2011, 05:29:27 AM
We tried reaching out the wine makers, but didn't even get one single person to help or respond.
Actually as the audio file will show, inclusion of wine probably hurt our chances this year.  They kept quoting the high alcohol content of wine during the floor debate.

One thing that may help is to take wine out of the bill next time around.

By the way, a kilo of marijuana is a misdemeanor, but being in possession of a single pint of homebrew is a felony.   It is also a felony to have any equipment that could be used or has been used to make beer or wine.  Like say, a large pot...



Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 05:34:07 AM
Maybe you can get some people arrested for possession of a crab pot. :-\
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 27, 2011, 05:37:46 AM
@quest4watneys:  It wasn't long ago Indiana fought this battle too.  And also faced opposition. Be sure and thank your Indiana homebrewing elders, like Paul Hayslett and others, who worked to legalize Indiana back in 1999 or so..  It is not an easy process at all.

We certainly have the toughest nut to crack, except for maybe Mississippi.  As we say in Alabama "thank God for Mississippi" else we'd be ranked 50th in everything instead of 49th.


Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: euge on April 27, 2011, 06:08:51 AM
Man that's awful.Twenty-First Century and we still got crazy blue laws in the South.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: phillamb168 on April 27, 2011, 06:59:34 AM
 ::)

Well you know the good lord Jesus Christ drank grape juice, not wine, after all.

 ::)

Perhaps we can tell them that I named my CAP after an Alabama infantry regiment that fought near my house, and that it's a shame that the great citizens of Alabama can't do the same in their basement? I mean, there's a beer with something related to Alabama in FRANCE, land of freedom-haters! It can't stand!

--- for those of you living in Alabama, I'm really sorry. The drinking age is 18 over here and da yout are a lot more responsible than the kids I grew up with.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Pinski on April 27, 2011, 07:14:18 AM
One more reason to dislike Auburn.
GO DUCKS!

Seriously though, really sorry to hear about this setback. Hopefully you can rally the needed support in the future.
War Damn Eagle!
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: mxstar21 on April 27, 2011, 07:48:24 AM
Man, that is too bad.  I can't believe it is still illegal there. 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tygo on April 27, 2011, 11:01:43 AM
That's really unfortunate.  How many states are left where it's not legal?  Is it just Alabama and Mississippi?  I know progress was made in Oklahoma and I believe Louisiana in the last year.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: bluesman on April 27, 2011, 11:31:53 AM
This is a setback but don't give up hope. Being against the odds is a tough predicament but is not the end all. In fact it allows for a renewed effort. There is a need for education and awareness amongst the parties to be. My bet is that we will overcome this roadblock and move forward in due time.

As our case is new, we must think and act anew.
Abraham Lincoln



Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: SpanishCastleAle on April 27, 2011, 12:24:18 PM
When I see something like this the first thing I think is that there can only be two reasons for it: corruption and/or stupidity.  Based on the comments by these legislators we obviously can't rule out the latter but to have such a hard stance on it implies, at least to me, that the former is also involved.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: weithman5 on April 27, 2011, 12:45:54 PM
  These legislators are an embarrassment.  :(

most legislators are an embarrassment.  most of them probably couldn't hold a job that a teenager could do. if it weren't for politics they would be living in cars and boxes.   then maybe they would be greatful for a little fermented grain drink
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 27, 2011, 01:04:20 PM
Just goes to show how important it is to research everything before you move to a new state. Was the AHA involved in this?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: jeffy on April 27, 2011, 01:12:35 PM

By the way, a kilo of marijuana is a misdemeanor, but being in possession of a single pint of homebrew is a felony.   It is also a felony to have any equipment that could be used or has been used to make beer or wine.  Like say, a large pot...


Your signature line says that there is no law against it.  I don't understand.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Tim McManus on April 27, 2011, 02:36:42 PM
Let's move the AHA Conference to Alabama.  It probably generates a ton of revenue, so that's an attraction.  And then let's move the National Competition to Alabama to judge a few rounds.  Again, more state revenue for the coffers.

Of course none of this would be approved by the legislator.  That's where the money comes in.  Start telling people that their arcane laws prevented $XX,XXX from coming to the state.  Then talk about the tax that would generate more revenue on the sale of raw ingredients that goes to out-of-state vendors.  How much beer is brewed locally in the state?  Probably not that much, so there's more revenue leaving the state.

You need to take the issue and add dollars to it.  There are few things that can incite or excite people, and money is one of them.  So when the shrinking budget discussions start, so should the loss of revenue because of these laws.  Then you'll get people's attention.

Also, this legislation should be bolted onto something else.  Talk to the bill sponsors and see if there is a way to better position it, tie it to revenue, and then attach it to a larger bill.

It's a stretch, but you could show that a good potion (unknown to me) of homebrewers go on to start commercial operations (as brewpubs and breweries), which in turn generate a considerable amount of tax revenue for the state and jobs in the local communities.

Money talks.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: SpanishCastleAle on April 27, 2011, 03:06:13 PM

By the way, a kilo of marijuana is a misdemeanor, but being in possession of a single pint of homebrew is a felony.   It is also a felony to have any equipment that could be used or has been used to make beer or wine.  Like say, a large pot...


Your signature line says that there is no law against it.  I don't understand.
I think what the sig line is saying is that Alabama has it bass-ackwards.  Generally, something is legal unless there is a law making it illegal.  It doesn't work the other way around...unless you're either corrupt or stupid (which it should be obvious by now that the 'Bama Legislature are at least one of those things and probably both).
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: garyg on April 27, 2011, 04:12:35 PM
Having worked with Alabama homebrewers since John Little got this whole process started four years ago, I really thought this was the year we would see homebrewing legalized in the state. 

Even though the outcome this year is extremely disappointing, especially with so many of the bill's co-sponsors voting against it, the Alabama homebrewers who have pour their hearts and souls, and probably some IPA, into the campaign to get homebrewing legalized, should take great pride in the work they have done.  I am very impressed with their dedication to this cause.  This year, it seemed everything was going right, and from my vantage point, I just can't see anything that could have been done differently to get a better outcome.

Hopefully in the coming days we'll get a better sense of what really went down with the House vote on HB266 and can reevaluate our approach for the future.

Gary
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: udubdawg on April 27, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
Having worked with Alabama homebrewers since John Little got this whole process started four years ago, I really thought this was the year we would see homebrewing legalized in the state. 

Even though the outcome this year is extremely disappointing, especially with so many of the bill's co-sponsors voting against it, the Alabama homebrewers who have pour their hearts and souls, and probably some IPA, into the campaign to get homebrewing legalized, should take great pride in the work they have done.  I am very impressed with their dedication to this cause.  This year, it seemed everything was going right, and from my vantage point, I just can't see anything that could have been done differently to get a better outcome.

Hopefully in the coming days we'll get a better sense of what really went down with the House vote on HB266 and can reevaluate our approach for the future.

Gary

yeah what's the story there?  Why sponsor a bill and then vote against it?  Was it amended, or do they just enjoy bringing stuff up for discussion just so they can shoot it down?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: dbeechum on April 27, 2011, 04:27:39 PM
Why sponsor a bill and then vote against it? 

Pure speculation here, but usually the problem is someone very loud finds out about the bill and then brings pressure to bear against the politician that wasn't there when they sponsored the bill.

In this case, maybe what happened was an organization with strong influence "The Religious Anti-Alcohol Front" (not real, but it sounds like an ironic punk band). They found out about the bill at the last minute and had hteir supporters loudly contact the legislators in question ("Won't you think of the children being exposed to demon booze? If you don't, we won't vote for you!")

The AHA has similarly rallied the troops in the past for things in line with our concerns like when they're about to introduce a law that would have inadvertently outlawed homebrewing competitions here. We rallied to get the legislation modified to clearly allow what we do.

Most politicians spend their time, not legislating, but campaigning to avoid losing an election. It's a fear driven business.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: richardt on April 27, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
Like Gary said, let's wait a few days and see what really happened.  Eventually someone (like a sympathetic aide) will talk and tell you what happened and why.  Follow the money (donations have to be reported--but you might have to wait till the end of the year to see the list).  My guess is that someone (e.g., beer distributor) or some coalition (e.g., bar owners, package stores, restaurants) who makes money on commercial beer sales, doesn't want y'all staying home and drinking your homebrewed beer when you would otherwise be buying theirs.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: thirsty on April 27, 2011, 06:01:09 PM
If all the Alabama homebrewers were millionaires, and could donate large sums of money to every politician in the Alabama Legislature, the law would be changed right away.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: colinhayes on April 27, 2011, 06:38:37 PM
you know, sometimes you just have to ignore laws.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: narvin on April 27, 2011, 06:45:42 PM
Alabama
You got the rest of the union
to help you along
What's going wrong?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 07:24:27 PM
Tom, are you sure that citation is correct?  I wanted to read it and can't find it anywhere.
Lovett v. State, 1943

I tried caselaw.findlaw.com and findacase.com

It might be that they don't have the right databases, do you know where I can find it?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Beer Monger on April 27, 2011, 07:41:19 PM
you know, sometimes you just have to ignore laws.

Exactly.  There are even a few homebrew supply shops in Alabama.  I haven't read a single story ever about a homebrew supply shop being raided & closed down 'cuase homebrewing is technically illegal in the state. 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 07:43:31 PM
you know, sometimes you just have to ignore laws.

Exactly.  There are even a few homebrew supply shops in Alabama.  I haven't read a single story ever about a homebrew supply shop being raided & closed down 'cuase homebrewing is technically illegal in the state. 
What the shops are doing - selling grains, sugars, hops, yeast, etc - isn't illegal as far as I know.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Beer Monger on April 27, 2011, 07:44:38 PM
you know, sometimes you just have to ignore laws.

Exactly.  There are even a few homebrew supply shops in Alabama.  I haven't read a single story ever about a homebrew supply shop being raided & closed down 'cuase homebrewing is technically illegal in the state. 
What the shops are doing - selling grains, sugars, hops, yeast, etc - isn't illegal as far as I know.
True, but they're dumb enough to keep homebrewing illegal there, so I wouldn't put it past them to harrass the shops.  lol
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: maxieboy on April 27, 2011, 08:04:27 PM
If all the Alabama homebrewers were millionaires, and could donate large sums of money to every politician in the Alabama Legislature, the law would be changed right away.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Beer Monger on April 27, 2011, 08:14:40 PM
They say we should be thinking of our chillrens and ought not to be exposing them to 100 gallons of beer in our home and throwing underage parties.

1. I have no kids.  I'm sure there are lots of homebrewers (or wanna be homebrewers) in AL that don't have kids either.
2. Throw underage parties?  Good lord why?  That's MY homebrew!  ;)  (This is an extremely lame excuse - can they point to this being an issue in ANY state where homebrewing is currently legal?  I doubt it.)

They say without a license who is going to make sure we don't make people sick.

I'm surprised they allow you guys in AL to cook at home!  I mean, what if your cooking/food handling skills are poor and you make someone sick!?  The horror!  lol

They say we are a low class of people.

So making beer at home that's 10X better than the Bud light crap they buy at the store & drink is 'low class'?  Morons.  First class morons. 

They say where I come from we call that boot legging.

Boot-legging is 'smuggling' liquor (the term doesn't cover beer to my knowledge, but I could be wrong).  What, exactly, is being 'sumggled' when we homebrew? 

I'll have to visit AL someday, but I know I could never live there.  The basic level of stupidity and ignorance, just from the local politicians in this example, would make me want to kill myself.  lol




[/quote]
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 08:24:45 PM
As far as I can tell, if there is no law specifically prohibiting it in Alabama then it is not technically illegal to homebrew, because it is legal federally.  However it is illegal to possess homebrewing equipment because of this (my emphasis):

Quote
Section 28-1-1
Possession of still, etc., or illegally manufactured, transported or imported alcoholic beverages.

In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law.

And Tom, I'm pretty sure that case you mention doesn't apply.  In 1943 when it was decided it would have been correct, but back then homebrewing was illegal federally and states didn't need a law prohibiting it.  When Carter legalized it in 1979 it should have automatically become legal in every state that did not have a law against it.  The law against possessing equipment to make beer without a license should cover them for busting most people, but I think if you had a homebrew in your hand there would be nothing they could do because making homebrew itself is not illlegal so you are not in possession of an illegally made alcoholic beverage.  Tenuous perhaps, but one could make the argument.

I'm not suggesting anyone test my ideas ;)  I'm not a lawyer, I'm not familiar with all Alabama laws, and I'm assuming there is no law that specifically prohibits homebrewing.  Just thinking about the subject.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: udubdawg on April 27, 2011, 08:38:58 PM
As far as I can tell, if there is no law specifically prohibiting it in Alabama then it is not technically illegal to homebrew, because it is legal federally.  However it is illegal to possess homebrewing equipment because of this (my emphasis):

Quote
Section 28-1-1
Possession of still, etc., or illegally manufactured, transported or imported alcoholic beverages.

In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind or any alcoholic beverage of any kind illegally manufactured or transported within the state or imported into the state from any other place without authority of the alcoholic control board of the state, and any person, firm or corporation violating this provision or who transports any illegally manufactured alcoholic beverages or who manufactures illegally any alcoholic beverages shall, upon conviction, be punished as provided by law.

And Tom, I'm pretty sure that case you mention doesn't apply.  In 1943 when it was decided it would have been correct, but back then homebrewing was illegal federally and states didn't need a law prohibiting it.  When Carter legalized it in 1979 it should have automatically become legal in every state that did not have a law against it.  The law against possessing equipment to make beer without a license should cover them for busting most people, but I think if you had a homebrew in your hand there would be nothing they could do because making homebrew itself is not illlegal so you are not in possession of an illegally made alcoholic beverage.  Tenuous perhaps, but one could make the argument.

I'm not suggesting anyone test my ideas ;)  I'm not a lawyer, I'm not familiar with all Alabama laws, and I'm assuming there is no law that specifically prohibits homebrewing.  Just thinking about the subject.

while the parts you emphasized prohibit the equipment, it seems like the part in between the two you bolded prohibits the product...
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
while the parts you emphasized prohibit the equipment, it seems like the part in between the two you bolded prohibits the product...
It doesn't seem that way to me, because it references illegally manufactured alcohol.  If there is no state law prohibiting homebrewing and it is legal by federal law, then homebrew would be legally manufactured alcohol.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: weithman5 on April 27, 2011, 08:55:05 PM

It doesn't seem that way to me, because it references illegally manufactured alcohol.  If there is no state law prohibiting homebrewing and it is legal by federal law, then homebrew would be legally manufactured alcohol.

i agree. not that that matters
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 27, 2011, 08:56:48 PM

It doesn't seem that way to me, because it references illegally manufactured alcohol.  If there is no state law prohibiting homebrewing and it is legal by federal law, then homebrew would be legally manufactured alcohol.

i agree. not that that matters
No, it doesn't matter. :)  And I wouldn't want to have to argue that in court either.  But given enough money and a good enough lawyer you'd probably win.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: jeffy on April 27, 2011, 09:02:05 PM

It doesn't seem that way to me, because it references illegally manufactured alcohol.  If there is no state law prohibiting homebrewing and it is legal by federal law, then homebrew would be legally manufactured alcohol.

i agree. not that that matters
No, it doesn't matter. :)  And I wouldn't want to have to argue that in court either.  But given enough money and a good enough lawyer you'd probably win.
Unless the trial is in Alabama. ;)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: homebrewgamecock on April 27, 2011, 09:37:41 PM
That sucks the bill did not pass.  I can't imagine not being able to homebrew.  Just glad that CO is all about homebrewing and good beer. 

Let's hope someone soon AL legalizes it.  The whole exposing your children to booze argument is really lame.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 27, 2011, 09:40:36 PM
Obviously, I don't agree with the AL homebrew laws, but it's refreshing that states still have some rights left.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: beersk on April 27, 2011, 09:42:00 PM
These legislators are a disgrace to the human race.  Someday, hopefully they'll realize it's 2011 and not 1931.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: maxieboy on April 27, 2011, 10:23:59 PM
Most These legislators are a disgrace to the human race.  Someday, hopefully they'll realize it's 2011 and not 1931.

Fixed.  ;)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 27, 2011, 11:33:50 PM
Obviously, I don't agree with the AL homebrew laws, but it's refreshing that states still have some rights left.

I live and own a brewery in Alabama and let me just inform you that your statement is absurd.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 27, 2011, 11:44:50 PM
Obviously, I don't agree with the AL homebrew laws, but it's refreshing that states still have some rights left.

I live and own a brewery in Alabama and let me just inform you that your statement is absurd.

Why's that? Seems to me that the law is probably protecting your interests, but again, I said I was against it. I'm just for states being able to decide what they think is best for their state. Don't like it, move or vote in new people.  
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 28, 2011, 12:10:16 AM
This is how much you know about Alabama politics. Its usually not ever allowed to come up for a vote. That's the problem. And as a brewer - and business owner - we have a slew of other legislative issues that need to be addressed. But the powers that be are taking money from the beer distributors and big beer to keep our legislation from ever coming to a vote.

And to suggest that I "move to another state" is absurd. I have invested my life savings in this state. Its simply not that easy.

That said, I agree that if a county would vote to be dry they should have that right. But when it is kept from coming to a vote by selected interest - that's wrong. Plain wrong. And it is a far cry from freedom.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 28, 2011, 12:12:15 AM
Seems to me that the law is probably protecting your interests,  

BTW if you think I would be for something that would protect my interests but take a freedom away from other people you have me pegged wrong. Besides, homebrewers are craft beer supporters. Everyone knows that.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: maxieboy on April 28, 2011, 12:15:50 AM
Follow the money...
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 28, 2011, 12:16:57 AM
This is how much you know about Alabama politics. Its usually not ever allowed to come up for a vote. That's the problem. And as a brewer - and business owner - we have a slew of other legislative issues that need to be addressed. But the powers that be are taking money from the beer distributors and big beer to keep our legislation from ever coming to a vote.

And to suggest that I "move to another state" is absurd. I have invested my life savings in this state. Its simply not that easy.

That said, I agree that if a county would vote to be dry they should have that right. But when it is kept from coming to a vote by selected interest - that's wrong. Plain wrong. And it is a far cry from freedom.

Well, I know that this thread was all about it coming to a vote and not passing. I admit that I didn't know that before I read the thread, but now I do. Maybe you should start at the beginning of the thread, as I did. Again, my second suggestion, which probably applies more to you, is to vote in new legislators. It's not a perfect system, but it's all we/you got.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 28, 2011, 04:59:43 AM

You quote the right sections, the prohibition act (dry county laws)   What complicates things is when an area goes wet it follows the ABC act which says, do not follow the dry county laws..   Guess what that means?   If a county goes wet, then the illegal manufacture language you posted is no longer applicable.  Yeah us, we can brew!   Wait, not so fast, says ABC!   We have case law that says homebrewing was deemed illegal even in a wet county.

Info from Mike Bishop, Alabama ABC Agent, circa 2005:
"      (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the prohibition law not repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet counties consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either.   "

Bottom line, they feel the illegal manuf portion of the dry county section are still applicable, since then ABC act doesn't say anything new.  So it still has a 'field of operation'.  A homebrewer lawyer john Little agrees with this interpretation.   As such they feel they can confiscate equipment, they threaten to shut down HB shops, (possession of equipment) who sell complete start up brewing kits as a set.   They allow sale of separate equipment but packaged together is where they draw the line since the use becomes clear when its used together.  They basically feel they can interpret the law this way, even tho we know of no one in modern times who has been convicted strictly for brewing.  Agent Bishop recalls fining someone 250 and taking his equipment in the early 90s..    I suspect there are quite a few people in dry counties who are not hobbyists that have been convicted.

Our bill would not apply to dry counties..  It would be a miracle to get a bill through for dry counties...it'd be easier to get the county to vote wet than do that.,  An enforcement issue in their eyes.   The legislator will not do anything without ABCs blessing so essentially the enforcement arm is also the legislative arm, when it comes to writing the bill.

Probably the most valid argument a defendant could have is that personal use not for sale does not constitute "manufacture"...  And therefore would not be illegal. 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 28, 2011, 05:13:35 AM
Info from Mike Bishop, Alabama ABC Agent, circa 2005:
"      (Lovett v. State, 1943), says that "the sections of the prohibition law not repealed by the ABC Act, and which have a field of operation in wet counties consistent with the Act, are still effective." In talking with the ABC Board's attorney, it seems that although there is not a specific law that prohibits homebrew, there is no law that authorizes it, either.   "

Bottom line, they feel the illegal manuf portion of the dry county section are still applicable, since then ABC act doesn't say anything new.  So it still has a 'field of operation'.
Wait, so there is a law that prohibits it, and it is found in the dry county section of the laws?  And it still applies, because only some of the dry county laws were repealed for wet counties?  Am I understanding that right?

Are you going to be in SD?  Bringing your wife this time?  We'll have to get together for beers with the czechs, as usual. ;D
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: bluesman on April 28, 2011, 11:51:57 AM

Probably the most valid argument a defendant could have is that personal use not for sale does not constitute "manufacture"...  And therefore would not be illegal. 

Interesting perspective.

What's the legal definition of "manufacture" ?

If I pickle cucumbers from my vegetable garden for personal consumption. Does that constitute "manufacture" ?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: homebrewgamecock on April 28, 2011, 04:03:42 PM
So, are there actually homebrew shops in AL?  Do they really crack down on homebrewers?  Are there many people that brew in AL because of this law?  Just curious.

Very strange to me that it's a felony to homebrew.

Well,  I hope all our AL residents are OK with the recent tornadoes and storms.  Prayers out to y'all and I hope you are safe.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Beer Monger on April 28, 2011, 04:39:44 PM
In all counties of the state it shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to have in his or its possession any still or apparatus to be used for the manufacture of any alcoholic beverage of any kind

So... wouldn't this mean they can go after the homebrew shops in AL?  Not for grains or yeast or other ingredients, but for selling the necessary 'apparatus' to homebrew? 

It's telling that they don't (go after the AL homebrew shops - and yes a few do exist). 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on April 28, 2011, 08:18:16 PM

Schmidling; you read correctly.

I think manufacture implies intent to sell.. If they ever try to convict anyone in a wet county of homebrewing (no distilled beverages) we will all pull together to defend.

Even more telling than letting full service HB shops operate is this;  Alabama used to have an annual HB Competition..  And ABC said they didn't mind as long no money was exchanged..   Things have changed since we have been pushing for formal legalization..   The Southern Baptists are pushing to prevent any changes to specifically legalize homebrewing.   They will also request ABC to investigate anyone who puts their name in the paper..  We made front page of LA Times but ABC paid a club member a visit after that and made him sign a paper stating he was aware it is illegal..
Even that is telling.

And our local DA has said he would never convict anyone who is not selling..    Really everyone wants this law except the law makers with unbased fears, and the religious opposition.

I had two Tornadoes near the house yesterday.   Many people are without homes in my HB clubs area (Harvest Monrovia areas of Huntsville), hopefully none of them..  Much of North AL without power.  600,000 TVA customers without power.  Alot of "illegal" homebrew getting warm today, but there are more important things like getting people fed and access to medication, etc..   Night time Curfew in effect.   Power will take 5 to 7 days to restore.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: jeffy on April 28, 2011, 08:24:39 PM

I had two Tornadoes near the house yesterday.   Many people are without homes in my HB clubs area (Harvest Monrovia areas of Huntsville), hopefully none of them..  Much of North AL without power.  600,000 TVA customers without power.  Alot of "illegal" homebrew getting warm today, but there are more important things like getting people fed and access to medication, etc..   Night time Curfew in effect.   Power will take 5 to 7 days to restore.

I was happy I to have homebrew equipment when we had power outages from hurricanes here a few years ago.  I could still cook breakfast on my propane burners.  Perhaps you could convince the legislators it's for emergency purposes.  (Plus my collection of freezer ice packs kept the food from spoiling.)
Here's hoping you get back to normal real soon.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 29, 2011, 04:56:17 AM
Remember, all of that homebrew is safe to drink if the water supply is in question, and you can boil water with those propane burners too!

Glad to hear you're ok Tom.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Pinski on April 29, 2011, 05:11:15 AM
My thoughts go to all those impacted by these storms.  This should serve as a good reminder to us all that it's a really good idea to put together a 72 hour kit at home and a "get home kit" in the car in case disaster strikes while we are away. Be safe.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Beer Monger on April 29, 2011, 01:09:19 PM
Even more telling than letting full service HB shops operate is this;  Alabama used to have an annual HB Competition..  And ABC said they didn't mind as long no money was exchanged..   Things have changed since we have been pushing for formal legalization..   The Southern Baptists are pushing to prevent any changes to specifically legalize homebrewing.   They will also request ABC to investigate anyone who puts their name in the paper..  We made front page of LA Times but ABC paid a club member a visit after that and made him sign a paper stating he was aware it is illegal..
Even that is telling.

And our local DA has said he would never convict anyone who is not selling..    Really everyone wants this law except the law makers with unbased fears, and the religious opposition.

(http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/footloose_6.jpg)
"Even if this was not a law, which it is, I'm afraid I would have a lot of difficulty endorsing an enterprise which is as fraught with genuine peril as I believe this one to be."

Not exactly what he was talking about - but the quote seems to fit those in the 'bible belt' who are against this for what they consider to be 'moral' reasons. 


(Glad you're OK after the tornado!  Wow.)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: weithman5 on April 29, 2011, 01:15:31 PM
maybe we should change our hobby from home brewing to "home boiling of a barley tea"  sorry if some yeast inadvertantly spilled in that barley tea..... ;D
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 29, 2011, 09:43:32 PM
This is how much you know about Alabama politics. Its usually not ever allowed to come up for a vote. That's the problem. And as a brewer - and business owner - we have a slew of other legislative issues that need to be addressed. But the powers that be are taking money from the beer distributors and big beer to keep our legislation from ever coming to a vote.

And to suggest that I "move to another state" is absurd. I have invested my life savings in this state. Its simply not that easy.

That said, I agree that if a county would vote to be dry they should have that right. But when it is kept from coming to a vote by selected interest - that's wrong. Plain wrong. And it is a far cry from freedom.

Well, I know that this thread was all about it coming to a vote and not passing. I admit that I didn't know that before I read the thread, but now I do. Maybe you should start at the beginning of the thread, as I did. Again, my second suggestion, which probably applies more to you, is to vote in new legislators. It's not a perfect system, but it's all we/you got.

Yes. I know it came to a vote. I was under serious weather threat and had my emotional wires crossed. But legislation I would like to come to a vote is constantly derailed by money and politics and lobbyists. My entire point is that you are gravely mistaken if you think Alabama politics are "refreshing" - it is one of the most corrupt, lobbyist driven, political systems in the country. Anything but refreshing.

And, yes. I work very, very hard to change it. Many of us do. That's one of the reasons you see the bastards digging in so deep.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: whitebeard_brewer on April 29, 2011, 10:30:20 PM
Keep fighting the fight over there my next door neighbors.....maybe one day, we will BOTH get these archaic laws changed!!! 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 30, 2011, 12:20:09 AM
Quote
My entire point is that you are gravely mistaken if you think Alabama politics are "refreshing"  

Please show me where I ever said that "Alabama" politics is refreshing. I simply said that I agree with states's rights and I stand by that. Everything is not perfect, but we need to remember, as home brewers, that it can't always be our way, as much as we'd like to think it should be. There are other people's opinions that matter, equally, as much as ours. This applies to ALL issues. In the end, local voice is much more important than federal voice, IMO.

As your state cleans up from the unfortunate turmoil that you experienced, you'll see that local help means a lot more than the feds can offer.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on April 30, 2011, 06:02:10 AM
I simply said that I agree with states's rights and I stand by that. Everything is not perfect, but we need to remember, as home brewers, that it can't always be our way, as much as we'd like to think it should be. There are other people's opinions that matter, equally, as much as ours. This applies to ALL issues. In the end, local voice is much more important than federal voice, IMO.
State's rights?  This is the same argument used to support several horrendous policies in the past.  State's rights are all well and good when they are granting rights to citizens, but to take rights away for no reason other than your beliefs is wrong, majority or not.  Whether your neighbor homebrews or not has no effect on you or society in general, it is not a safety issue, no one is harmed, and it is not really anyone else's business.

I'm sure you disagree with the vote, but it shouldn't even be up for a vote.  Brewing at home for home use is a matter of personal privacy.  These legislators are surely all for freedom and liberty - to do what they think is right.  Where do they stand on other matters of personal freedom?  I'm guessing they don't mind where you might carry your gun, but are very concerned with who you might marry and where you might put your penis.

Brewing at home is perfectly legal in Alabama every step of the way up until you pitch the yeast.  Why should anyone get to say whether you are allowed to add yeast or not?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: phillamb168 on April 30, 2011, 07:18:17 AM
As your state cleans up from the unfortunate turmoil that you experienced, you'll see that local help means a lot more than the feds can offer.

 :o
 ::)

It's nice to have neighbors helping neighbors, but if you think a state could recover from disaster without Federal aid, I want some of what you're smoking.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tumarkin on April 30, 2011, 11:03:38 AM
I simply said that I agree with states's rights and I stand by that. Everything is not perfect, but we need to remember, as home brewers, that it can't always be our way, as much as we'd like to think it should be. There are other people's opinions that matter, equally, as much as ours. This applies to ALL issues. In the end, local voice is much more important than federal voice, IMO.
State's rights?  This is the same argument used to support several horrendous policies in the past.  State's rights are all well and good when they are granting rights to citizens, but to take rights away for no reason other than your beliefs is wrong, majority or not.  Whether your neighbor homebrews or not has no effect on you or society in general, it is not a safety issue, no one is harmed, and it is not really anyone else's business.

I'm sure you disagree with the vote, but it shouldn't even be up for a vote.  Brewing at home for home use is a matter of personal privacy.  These legislators are surely all for freedom and liberty - to do what they think is right.  Where do they stand on other matters of personal freedom?  I'm guessing they don't mind where you might carry your gun, but are very concerned with who you might marry and where you might put your penis.

Brewing at home is perfectly legal in Alabama every step of the way up until you pitch the yeast.  Why should anyone get to say whether you are allowed to add yeast or not?

yes, Tom, it's all about freedom. but seen from another perspective, those legislators are valiant freedom fighters. they're leading the battle to free us from the yeastie overlords.

go ahead and brew every step of the way up until you're ready to pitch the yeast. try to stop there..... you can't, can you?? those evil overlords have got you so under control that you can't stop yourself. you'll HAVE to pitch them into the waiting wort.

those freedom fighters in Alabama are trying to rebel, trying to help us help ourselves. they know it's a fruitless, doomed endeavor, that the yeast will win in the end, but they keep trying. they are leading the fight for your freedom. honor them for it.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: bluesman on April 30, 2011, 02:14:15 PM
I simply said that I agree with states's rights and I stand by that. Everything is not perfect, but we need to remember, as home brewers, that it can't always be our way, as much as we'd like to think it should be. There are other people's opinions that matter, equally, as much as ours. This applies to ALL issues. In the end, local voice is much more important than federal voice, IMO.
State's rights?  This is the same argument used to support several horrendous policies in the past.  State's rights are all well and good when they are granting rights to citizens, but to take rights away for no reason other than your beliefs is wrong, majority or not.  Whether your neighbor homebrews or not has no effect on you or society in general, it is not a safety issue, no one is harmed, and it is not really anyone else's business.

I'm sure you disagree with the vote, but it shouldn't even be up for a vote.  Brewing at home for home use is a matter of personal privacy.  These legislators are surely all for freedom and liberty - to do what they think is right.  Where do they stand on other matters of personal freedom?  I'm guessing they don't mind where you might carry your gun, but are very concerned with who you might marry and where you might put your penis.

Brewing at home is perfectly legal in Alabama every step of the way up until you pitch the yeast.  Why should anyone get to say whether you are allowed to add yeast or not?

yes, Tom, it's all about freedom. but seen from another perspective, those legislators are valiant freedom fighters. they're leading the battle to free us from the yeastie overlords.

go ahead and brew every step of the way up until you're ready to pitch the yeast. try to stop there..... you can't, can you?? those evil overlords have got you so under control that you can't stop yourself. you'll HAVE to pitch them into the waiting wort.

those freedom fighters in Alabama are trying to rebel, trying to help us help ourselves. they know it's a fruitless, doomed endeavor, that the yeast will win in the end, but they keep trying. they are leading the fight for your freedom. honor them for it.

 :D

Sometimes if you don't laugh...you'll just go crazy.  ;)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: classic on April 30, 2011, 02:32:01 PM
I'm sure you disagree with the vote, but it shouldn't even be up for a vote.  Brewing at home for home use is a matter of personal privacy.  These legislators are surely all for freedom and liberty - to do what they think is right.  Where do they stand on other matters of personal freedom?  I'm guessing they don't mind where you might carry your gun, but are very concerned with who you might marry and where you might put your penis.

Big +1 Tom. I'm always amazed at how people screaming for liberty and freedom from "tyranny" will simultaneously vote to inhibit personal freedoms they don't like.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 30, 2011, 02:56:46 PM
I'm not sure how we got from home brewing laws to penis placement, but I'm not going there.  ;D

If you don't like the laws ( neither do I) do something about it. Vote in new legislators or better yet, run yourself and change things. What I find truly amazing is that people from sates, such a Alabama, get on here and basically admit to felonies. I'm not suggesting for a minute that you quit brewing, but I'd be a little more discrete in who and where I admitted this. I'd hate to see a fellow brewer get busted. Cheers and good luck getting the law changed. I'm behind you 110%.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 30, 2011, 08:52:57 PM
I, for one, have a brewers license so I am in the clear.  ;)

Tom Schmidlin said what I want to say better than I ever could.

I guess I should also warn all of us, including myself, not to get too politically sidetracked. Though it's hard to talk about homebrewing legality without brushing up against politics.

The other thing I will say is that I do believe that the homebrewing law is partially backed by Bud lobbyists who don't want to see more craft beer in Alabama. Craft beer is what it is because of homebrewers. And if you take the wind out of the homebrewer's sales you, in turn, take a lot of the wind out of the craft brewers as well. My .02.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 30, 2011, 08:58:18 PM
Does that license cover you if your're brewing anywhere off site, IE your home?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 30, 2011, 09:03:24 PM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on April 30, 2011, 09:27:57 PM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.

I wasn't heading in that direction.  I was just curious and felt like it probably wouldn't cover home brewing anyway.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tubercle on April 30, 2011, 10:20:16 PM
Tubercle's take on this...like it matters.

 10th amendment (read for yourselves) - States should be able to choose. I support that. Tubercle believes state law trumps the fed.

 However.....

 Most Bibles in S.C. have holes on the cover from all of the thumping. But, they did adopt the "Jimmy Carter" home brewing laws. I can't imagine the shape Alabama Bibles are in.

  Remember this, all politician's main objective is to get re-elected. They spout all that we're for the people stuff but in  the end they want to get re-elected because this is really a gravy job with benefits none of us will ever realize. I have had the occasion to know and be friends with state legislators and they consulted me several times on various bills that were coming up (I know, scary, isn't it!). Every one of them, every time, were torn between to do what was right and trying to estimate how many registered voters it might offend. They have staff to do the statistics. In the end the voter count wins.

 Find a sympathetic friend to tack this legislation in a noble and voter friendly bill, if state law permits, that they cannot vote against, and let it pass on through.

 That is politics.

 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on April 30, 2011, 10:56:24 PM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.

I wasn't heading in that direction.  I was just curious and felt like it probably wouldn't cover home brewing anyway.

If you have a brewery with a wet area, walk in cold room storage, instance hot water heater that can reach dough in temps, and hot water clean up .... it would be kinda silly to still brew at home... just sayin'.  ;)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tubercle on April 30, 2011, 11:09:02 PM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.

I wasn't heading in that direction.  I was just curious and felt like it probably wouldn't cover home brewing anyway.

If you have a brewery with a wet area, walk in cold room storage, instance hot water heater that can reach dough in temps, and hot water clean up .... it would be kinda silly to still brew at home... just sayin'.  ;)

 Just a little side track....Can you take some what you make at the licensed brewery home for your own personal consumption? Or, does all have to be accounted for and taxed and sold through a distributor?

Back to to the post now.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on May 01, 2011, 04:31:49 AM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.

I wasn't heading in that direction.  I was just curious and felt like it probably wouldn't cover home brewing anyway.

If you have a brewery with a wet area, walk in cold room storage, instance hot water heater that can reach dough in temps, and hot water clean up .... it would be kinda silly to still brew at home... just sayin'.  ;)

Oh, I get it. You work in a brewery. Cool. (I'm a little slow when I've been drinking)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tschmidlin on May 01, 2011, 06:06:36 AM
yes, Tom, it's all about freedom. but seen from another perspective, those legislators are valiant freedom fighters. they're leading the battle to free us from the yeastie overlords.
;D  I suppose I should thank them then. :)


10th amendment (read for yourselves) - States should be able to choose. I support that. Tubercle believes state law trumps the fed.
Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States) the problem with that.  And here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws) and here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griswold_v._Connecticut).

I'm only trying to be beer-political which I think is a legitimate discussion for the board, but as Keith pointed out, there's carry over . . .

Homebrewing is a matter of privacy, as are a couple of the things I linked to.  I'd be surprised Tubercle, if you actually blindly support a state's right to decide something when it clearly infringes on the privacy or the rights of the individual and where the state has no legitimate interest.

The 10th Amendment is great - read it again, especially those last four words.

States should neither prohibit nor mandate homebrewing.  It is not any of their business.  You're more likely to get sick or die from a jar of home canned tomatoes than a bottle of home brewed beer.  If a state chooses to say you shouldn't be allowed to walk to your neighbor's house with a bottle of homebrew, well, I disagree but at least that is a legitimate issue.

Mods, if this is too politcal, sorry.  Feel free to delete.

I think it's clear where I stand anyway ;D
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on May 01, 2011, 12:11:22 PM
No. It doesn't. It would not be cost effective for homebrewers to consider buying a lic. either.

I wasn't heading in that direction.  I was just curious and felt like it probably wouldn't cover home brewing anyway.

If you have a brewery with a wet area, walk in cold room storage, instance hot water heater that can reach dough in temps, and hot water clean up .... it would be kinda silly to still brew at home... just sayin'.  ;)

 Just a little side track....Can you take some what you make at the licensed brewery home for your own personal consumption? Or, does all have to be accounted for and taxed and sold through a distributor?

Back to to the post now.

The TTB allows you to take home 200 gallons a year, kinda the same as with homebrewing.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on May 01, 2011, 12:28:54 PM
The fact that they allow you to take any home seems fair to me. Is that 200 gallons untaxed?
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: majorvices on May 01, 2011, 12:43:37 PM
Well, first off - that's the TTBs laws. Not Alabama laws. Alabama laws currently state that we are not even  allowed to sample the beer on premises .... guess how realistic that is.  ;)

But I believe the TTB law is that you are taxed only by what is sold. So the 200 gallons to take home is untaxed... I think. That said, I am the brewer and my partner takes care of all the paperwork and taxes and what not. I sent him an email to clarify if that beer is untaxed or not. If it is taxed then, still, doesn't amount to very much. TTB taxes are $7/bbl.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on May 01, 2011, 12:47:49 PM
For a brewer to not be able to legally taste the beer, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. 
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tumarkin on May 01, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
For a brewer to not be able to legally taste the beer, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

they can and do taste the beer. a hugely important part of commercial brewing is quality control in all its aspects (brewer evaluation, tasting panels, laboratory work, etc).
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: Hokerer on May 01, 2011, 01:35:07 PM
For a brewer to not be able to legally taste the beer, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

they can and do taste the beer. a hugely important part of commercial brewing is quality control in all its aspects (brewer evaluation, tasting panels, laboratory work, etc).

That's true but I think Keith's point was that doing that is technically illegal in Alabama
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on May 02, 2011, 09:48:40 PM
Sorry been kinda busy lately. Power outage, helping folks get their lives back in order.   There was a tornado perhaps you heard?

On subject though, firstly regarding me coming on here and admit i homebrew in no way jeipardizes me.  ABC does not actively persue prosecution.  Nor will the DA.   There have been ATF raids with teams of people who storm in to bust a supposed meth lab (turned in by a tipster) only to realize it is a homebrewing setup and they just shrug their shoulders and walk away..  A brewer was on the front page of the LA times with his brew rig behind him and only got a written warning that it is illegal (in their opinion).    They know they are on very shaky ground legally.    I met the lawyer for ABC.   He said to me this law would be good because it would clarify things and "help us with enforcement", whatever that means.   We have spoken in Montgomery to committees, they could have easily nabbed us all then..   There are legislators who have privately admitted they brew or make wine, and many more that have friends and family that do.   They didn't know it was illegal in the states opinion.

So while I appreciate the earlier poster's concern for my well being, I don't need advice on what and where I can post about brewing.  It is silly, and suggesting that I should "watch it" only further fans the flames of legitimacy for the opposition.. They would love nothing more than to have us all cower in fear and admit we are true criminals.   I sir personally refuse that suggestion.
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: ccarlson on May 03, 2011, 12:56:56 PM
Sorry been kinda busy lately. Power outage, helping folks get their lives back in order.   There was a tornado perhaps you heard?

On subject though, firstly regarding me coming on here and admit i homebrew in no way jeipardizes me.  ABC does not actively persue prosecution.  Nor will the DA.   There have been ATF raids with teams of people who storm in to bust a supposed meth lab (turned in by a tipster) only to realize it is a homebrewing setup and they just shrug their shoulders and walk away..  A brewer was on the front page of the LA times with his brew rig behind him and only got a written warning that it is illegal (in their opinion).    They know they are on very shaky ground legally.    I met the lawyer for ABC.   He said to me this law would be good because it would clarify things and "help us with enforcement", whatever that means.   We have spoken in Montgomery to committees, they could have easily nabbed us all then..   There are legislators who have privately admitted they brew or make wine, and many more that have friends and family that do.   They didn't know it was illegal in the states opinion.

So while I appreciate the earlier poster's concern for my well being, I don't need advice on what and where I can post about brewing.  It is silly, and suggesting that I should "watch it" only further fans the flames of legitimacy for the opposition.. They would love nothing more than to have us all cower in fear and admit we are true criminals.   I sir personally refuse that suggestion.

Good luck and never piss off your neighbors. :)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: tommeier on May 09, 2011, 05:52:24 PM

Link an audio file with the filibuster and floor debate on the issue:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9UlhisD_R9QMTZlNzlmNzEtN2JmMC00MTU4LTljYWMtODIyNDU4NzYzODVk&hl=en&pli=1

Warning:  It is a 60 meg file and the debate lasted an hour or so.  Usually the floor debate does not change the votes, but in this case the legislators who reverse their support for the bill and voted no claimed they were influenced by the iron clad logic and scary examples posed by our detractors during the floor debate.   

If you have some time to kill, or just want a good "oh my God!" incredulous laugh accompanied by shock,, then listen and judge for yourself...    And if you have any friends or family in Alabama that would be sympathic to legalization, please get them involved for the 2012 legalization effort..   Ask them to add their email to the email newsletter list (receives very limited email, just a few per year)..  http://www.alahomebrewing.org/subscribe-to-newsletter


Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: brewphish on May 09, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Wow, just wow.  Thankfully I'm in Ohio, but I sure wish there was something I could do to help out down there.  WTF is wrong with these people? 

Not only to I feel dumber for listening to that, but it was totally disheartening to hear the lack of education about homebrewing.  Oh, and holy crap - the dude preaching about Noah being a wine-o and then talking about going to a cocktail party later that night, ugh, makes my skin crawl just thinking about the ignorance and intolerance of these folks.



Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: bonjour on May 09, 2011, 06:33:27 PM
Thankfully I'm in Ohio, but I sure wish there was something I could do to help out down there.  WTF is wrong with these people? 
You do know that some of these laws are being risen in Ohio that WILL have an impact on you. 

You should join the AHA because they are helping to preserve your rights, even in Ohio.

Fred
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: brewphish on May 09, 2011, 07:00:18 PM
Not to get too off topic, but no Fred, I wasn't aware of any proposed legislation that would restrict homebrewing.  It has been my understanding that Ohio laws only pertain to those who are manufacturing with the intent to sell.  Could you point me to any sources? 

Membership dues are paid ;)
Title: Re: Alabama Homebrew Legalization 2011 = Failed
Post by: bonjour on May 09, 2011, 07:12:47 PM
Ohio is looking to write a bill to legalize homebrew in licensed establishments for competitions, club meetings, etc.
Currently some clubs/events have been denied.  Similar to what happened in Oregon, and is happening elsewhere as well.

Just be ready to respond when a call to action is posted.

My point is not to hijack this thread, but to point out that stuff is happening that impacts many of us.

Now to make it legal to homebrew in Alabama and Mississippi . . . . . . . .