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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: hariii2 on May 07, 2011, 01:27:33 PM

Title: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: hariii2 on May 07, 2011, 01:27:33 PM
Hey, I am trying to make plans for my brewclub to come to my hop yard and brew up a Harvest Ale this fall.  (after THEY pick all the hops we will need  ;))  I have Centennial, Cascade, Chinook, Willamette, Magnum, and Nugget.  We have discussed brewing an American IPA, maybe a IIPA, 50 to 70 gallons.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
hari
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: weazletoe on May 16, 2011, 10:42:45 PM
My house IPA is bittered with Magnums at 60, and then I do Cascade at each 15 min interval. I absolutly love it. I typically aim for around 70 IBU's.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 17, 2011, 03:46:34 AM
I assume that you are refering to wet hopping the beer(s), is that correct?  If so make sure that you use 5 to 6 times more hops (by weight) than you normally would for your flavor and aroma additions and then bitter with your regular dried bittering hops.  If you really have enough hops to make 70 gallons, my vote would be to divise hop combos and make 3 or 4 different versions of IPA and a couple IIPA versions.

Or make a wet-hop single-hop IPA with each hop variety and then have a club discussion about the character of each hop variety.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 17, 2011, 06:20:42 AM
I assume that you are refering to wet fresh hopping the beer(s), is that correct?  If so make sure that you use 5 to 6 times more hops (by weight) than you normally would for your flavor and aroma additions and then bitter with your regular dried bittering hops.  If you really have enough hops to make 70 gallons, my vote would be to divise hop combos and make 3 or 4 different versions of IPA and a couple IIPA versions.

Or make a wetfresh-hop single-hop IPA with each hop variety and then have a club discussion about the character of each hop variety.
Dammit jay, there's no such thing as wet hops.  If they are fresh picked off the bine, they are fresh.  Ok, if you sauce them they may be wet, but who sauces their hops before putting them in the boil?

Yes, use 5-6 times the weight of fresh hops as dried hops, but I say use them for bittering too.  You won't know the IBUs for sure so it's a bit of a crap shoot but that's half the fun.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: weazletoe on May 17, 2011, 04:12:09 PM
Is too such a thing! Soon as you toss the hops in the wort, it becomes a wet hop. Therefore, I proclaim all beers wet hopped.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 17, 2011, 06:34:43 PM
Dammit jay, there's no such thing as wet hops.  If they are fresh picked off the bine, they are fresh.  Ok, if you sauce them they may be wet, but who sauces their hops before putting them in the boil?

Yes, use 5-6 times the weight of fresh hops as dried hops, but I say use them for bittering too.  You won't know the IBUs for sure so it's a bit of a crap shoot but that's half the fun.

Apparently you've never picked fresh hops, if you had you'd know that they are quite WET (umm roughly 5 to 6 times more moisture) compaired to the dried hops that we use most of the time.  I never waste my perfectly fresh and delicious WET hops on bittering additions but that's just me.  :-*  :)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: weazletoe on May 17, 2011, 06:45:28 PM
Yeah, I learned that lesson my first batch of wet hop. So many hops, and so much work harvesting them, wasted for nothing. I pledged from that first pint on, to never bitter with wet hops again.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 18, 2011, 06:26:14 AM
I've picked plenty of fresh hops in my day, but never any wet ones.  Maybe I'm just smart enough to do it when it's not raining. :)  They are no wetter than the fresh berries, apples, peppers, beans, peas, etc that I grow and pick every year.  All very nice fresh, none of them wet unless I wash a little dirt off of them.  ;)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 18, 2011, 07:57:58 PM
Yeah, I learned that lesson my first batch of wet hop. So many hops, and so much work harvesting them, wasted for nothing. I pledged from that first pint on, to never bitter with wet hops again.

smart man  

I've picked plenty of fresh hops in my day, but never any wet ones.  Maybe I'm just smart enough to do it when it's not raining. :)  They are no wetter than the fresh berries, apples, peppers, beans, peas, etc that I grow and pick every year.  All very nice fresh, none of them wet unless I wash a little dirt off of them.  ;)

Tom I understand that you don't like my terminology.  If something has 5 times the moisture weight than it normally would (because they're normally dried) it could easily be called wet.  The opposite of dry according to you is FRESH, but I'll stick with the term WET.  Thanks punk  ;D

<edit>  i guess fresh vs. dried works for pretty well for fruit
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 18, 2011, 10:03:30 PM
Maybe I'm just smart enough to do it when it's not raining.

 :D  sometimes you're an ass.  still funny though
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 18, 2011, 10:50:28 PM
Maybe I'm just smart enough to do it when it's not raining.

 :D  sometimes you're an ass.  still funny though
Only sometimes? ;D

<edit>  i guess fresh vs. dried works for pretty well for fruit
This has always been my point.  Fresh or dried is how we refer to fruit and herbs (no one says "I make my pizza with wet basil").  And really, fresh hops are at most a little damp, they're no more wet than fresh cut flowers.

Nevermind that you could theoretically dry hop with wet hops (say what?), perhaps most importantly to me, "wet hops" doesn't sound good to me at all.  It is really just unappetizing. :-\
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 19, 2011, 12:46:04 AM
what was that antonym for the word dry?  oh yeah, WET  :)

ok hariii2 you can have your thread back, have fun with your hop harvest
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 19, 2011, 06:07:52 AM
what was that antonym for the word dry?  oh yeah, WET  :)
But the hops I use aren't dry.  They're dried.  As in NOT FRESH. ;D

ok hariii2 you can have your thread back, have fun with your hop harvest
Giving up, eh? ;)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 19, 2011, 03:40:42 PM
But the hops I use aren't dry.  They're dried.  As in NOT FRESH. ;D

ok hariii2 you can have your thread back, have fun with your hop harvest
Giving up, eh? ;)

oh i thought everyone agreed WET was better
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 19, 2011, 04:20:59 PM
Quote
ok hariii2 you can have your thread back, have fun with your hop harvest
Giving up, eh? ;)

oh i thought everyone agreed WET was better
I can think of a few cases where that is true, just not this one.  100% of the people I've asked today agree that FRESH is the way to go. ;D
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 19, 2011, 04:41:05 PM
100% of the people I've asked today agree that FRESH is the way to go. ;D

yes, I'm sure that 1of1 persons agree with you.  bathroom mirrror?
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 19, 2011, 05:00:19 PM
100% of the people I've asked today agree that FRESH is the way to go. ;D

yes, I'm sure that 1of1 persons agree with you.  bathroom mirrror?
I don't need a mirror to talk to myself. ;D
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 19, 2011, 07:19:36 PM
I don't need a mirror to talk to myself. ;D

That’s good; I’m perfectly ok with folks who talk to themselves, but the idea of people talking to themselves via the bathroom mirror kind of freaks me out.

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried. 

This might be one of those "you spell tomatoe, I spell tomato" things.  ;)  Really I think we both can agree that you're wrong, and I'm ok with that.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: blatz on May 19, 2011, 07:35:45 PM

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried.  


here's one that will really "f" with you guys - Sierra Nevada refers to their Harvest Ale as 'wet hopped' while they refer to Celebration Ale as "fresh hopped"

ooooohhhhhh - you just got served  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 19, 2011, 07:41:34 PM
My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried.  
What could have less storage time than hops that are picked and used within 24 hours?  If you have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, both are dried, but neither one is fresh.  If they have been dried, when would they stop being "fresh" to you, when the new harvest comes out?  Seriously, I'm curious how long you would apply the word fresh to dried hops in this scenario?  You might call them "new", or "this year's harvest", or 2010 and 2007.

This might be one of those "you spell tomatoe, I spell tomato" things.  ;)  Really I think we both can agree that you're wrong, and I'm ok with that.
If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong. ;)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 19, 2011, 07:43:08 PM

My only real problem with "fresh" is that, it's usually a term for less storage time. If I have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, one is fresh, but both are dried. 


here's one that will really "f" with you guys - Sierra Nevada refers to their Harvest Ale as 'wet hopped' while they refer to Celebration Ale as "fresh hopped"

ooooohhhhhh - you just got served  ;D ;)
I won't buy the Harvest Ale for that very reason.  Seriously. ;D
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: blatz on May 19, 2011, 07:45:16 PM
I won't buy the Harvest Ale for that very reason.  Seriously. ;D

more for me then  ;D

you two are funny. 
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 19, 2011, 08:46:10 PM
you two are funny.  

nothing funny about it, this is a very serious discussion, strictly concerning hop terminology   ;)  (e.g. - read the line below)
 
oh i thought everyone agreed WET was better...I can think of a few cases where that is true, just not this one.

If you have dried hops that are 3 years old and dried hops that are from the latest harvest, both are dried, but neither one is fresh.  If they have been dried, when would they stop being "fresh" to you, when the new harvest comes out?  Seriously, I'm curious how long you would apply the word fresh to dried hops in this scenario?  You might call them "new", or "this year's harvest", or 2010 and 2007.

So hops that have been harvested, dried, nitrogen flushed and shipped directly to me aren't fresh?  Personally, I think dried hops are fresh as long as they maintain good flavor/aroma and AA%, which differs according to hop variety and storage conditions.  

Think about this from the perspective of the typical consumer, asuming the typical consumer has never seen a hop in their life.  They see a bottle with "fresh hopped" on the lable and they think to themselves, this beer is made with hops (whatever that is) that are newer rather than older.  If they see a bottle with "Wet hopped" on the lable they think, this beer is made with an unusual technique (whatever that is).  Setting it apart from beer hopped the normal (whatever that is) way.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 20, 2011, 05:57:40 AM
So hops that have been harvested, dried, nitrogen flushed and shipped directly to me aren't fresh?  Personally, I think dried hops are fresh as long as they maintain good flavor/aroma and AA%, which differs according to hop variety and storage conditions.  
If someone harvests basil, dries it, nitrogen flushes it, and ships it directly to you, is it fresh basil?  No.  As long as the hops maintain good flavor/aroma and AA% I would call them high-quality hops, but they are not fresh.  

Think about this from the perspective of the typical consumer, asuming the typical consumer has never seen a hop in their life.  They see a bottle with "fresh hopped" on the lable and they think to themselves, this beer is made with hops (whatever that is) that are newer rather than older.  If they see a bottle with "Wet hopped" on the lable they think, this beer is made with an unusual technique (whatever that is).  Setting it apart from beer hopped the normal (whatever that is) way.
This is essentially the same argument that Denise Jones from Moylan's made to me a few years ago.  I told her I am on the side of educating the consumer rather than catering to their ignorance.  She was amused and gave us beer, but she didn't agree. ;)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 20, 2011, 06:34:44 PM
This is essentially the same argument that Denise Jones from Moylan's made to me a few years ago.  I told her I am on the side of educating the consumer rather than catering to their ignorance.  She was amused and gave us beer, but she didn't agree. ;)

I'm all for education.  Baby steps; it's the only way.  If you entice the general public and move them slowly towards the craft (now there's a term I've begun to hate as much as you hate "wet") industry, everyone wins.  A percentage of those people will eventually become homebrewers and then we can really educate them.  I'd love to see the general public, craft beer brewers, craft industry and homebrewers all on one general page.  It'll happen; baby steps.  Then we can all simultaneously raise a pint of "Wet Hopped" beer!   ;)

Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 20, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).
I think it's safe to say that I am the only one who cares this much about this particular thing.  I'm usually one who says "here's what I think, but do what you like".  Just not here obviously. :)

Oh, and I saw the SN Southern Hemisphere Harvest at the store yesterday.  I looked very carefully.  It said Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the neck label, Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the bottle label, and the text had the word fresh in it two more times.  But it also said they were dried.  From their website (http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest_southern.html)

Quote
Like our Celebration Ale, the fresh hops in this beer are dried right after being picked then shipped immediately to Chico for brewing so that they retain their peak aromatics and flavors.

Yeah, they were fresh.  And then they were dried.  I have no objection to them calling it a harvest ale, telling how the flew the hops to the US, that is all great stuff and they obviously care a lot about their beers.  But to me, plastering fresh all over the label is false advertising.  They may have been dried as soon as possible after harvest but they're not fresh.

It also says this
Quote
To ensure the freshest hops possible, we went to the added expense of flying these hops from New Zealand to Chico so we could brew with them the week after they were picked.
Again, great, they are the freshest possible and it is probably not feasible to brew a real fresh hop ale in Chico with hops from NZ unless they bring back the Concorde.  But they are conflating "freshest possible" with "fresh".
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 20, 2011, 06:59:05 PM
But they are conflating "freshest possible" with "fresh".

sounds like a marketing dept.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: blatz on May 20, 2011, 07:06:43 PM
Oh, and I saw the SN Southern Hemisphere Harvest at the store yesterday.  I looked very carefully.  It said Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the neck label, Fresh Hop Ale in all caps on the bottle label, and the text had the word fresh in it two more times.  But it also said they were dried.  From their website (http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/harvest_southern.html)

Quote
Like our Celebration Ale, the fresh hops in this beer are dried right after being picked then shipped immediately to Chico for brewing so that they retain their peak aromatics and flavors.

Tom - if you go to their website and look at the NORTHERN Hemisphere Harvest it clearly says Wet Hop.  It would be impossible logistically to have a Wet Hop Southern Hemisphere unless they brewed it on the spot.

*edited to fix quotations
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: blatz on May 20, 2011, 07:08:49 PM

Paul, back to your thought on the Sierra Nevada terminology; what are your thoughts?  I think they're just covering all the bases by using both terms, but I wonder if all the term confusion helps or hinders the cause.  They're a great brewery with great beers, but IMO their (or anyone else doing the same thing) advertising strategies inadvertently hurt the cause (e.g. Tom refuses to drink their Harvest Ale).


frankly, I wish they would advertise that beer as made with the oldest, cheesiest moldiest hops around.  Then more people than Tom would not buy it, and then there'd be more for me  ;D ;)

I personally like the terminology though - to me it is very distinct - the 'wet' hop beer is made with hops that are not kilned/dried. the 'fresh' hop beer is one made with hops that are just harvested and processed.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 20, 2011, 07:47:06 PM
Tom - if you go to their website and look at the NORTHERN Hemisphere Harvest it clearly says Wet Hop.  It would be impossible logistically to have a Wet Hop Southern Hemisphere unless they brewed it on the spot.
They could flash freeze them and fly them up packed in dry ice.  :)

I personally like the terminology though - to me it is very distinct - the 'wet' hop beer is made with hops that are not kilned/dried. the 'fresh' hop beer is one made with hops that are just harvested and processed.
Their terminology sucks.  Their wet hops are not wet, they are fresh.  Their fresh hops are not fresh, they are dried.  Sorry you like it. ;) ;D  If they want to say "freshly harvested and processed" then they'll get no argument from me.  I wouldn't even object to calling it a fresh harvest ale.  But they're wrong to call them wet or fresh.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: blatz on May 20, 2011, 07:49:13 PM
oy vey.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: morticaixavier on May 20, 2011, 07:51:31 PM
Tom - if you go to their website and look at the NORTHERN Hemisphere Harvest it clearly says Wet Hop.  It would be impossible logistically to have a Wet Hop Southern Hemisphere unless they brewed it on the spot.
They could flash freeze them and fly them up packed in dry ice.  :)

I personally like the terminology though - to me it is very distinct - the 'wet' hop beer is made with hops that are not kilned/dried. the 'fresh' hop beer is one made with hops that are just harvested and processed.
Their terminology sucks.  Their wet hops are not wet, they are fresh.  Their fresh hops are not fresh, they are dried.  Sorry you like it. ;) ;D  If they want to say "freshly harvested and processed" then they'll get no argument from me.  I wouldn't even object to calling it a fresh harvest ale.  But they're wrong to call them wet or fresh.

how about 'vine ripe'?
'Fresh dried'?
or my favourite marketing BS 'Most Unique'
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: tschmidlin on May 20, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
oy vey.
Maybe I need to take the annoying quiz again. :)
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: jaybeerman on May 20, 2011, 09:09:52 PM
Their terminology sucks.  Their wet hops are not wet, they are fresh.  Their fresh hops are not fresh, they are dried.  Sorry you like it. ;) ;D  If they want to say "freshly harvested and processed" then they'll get no argument from me.  I wouldn't even object to calling it a fresh harvest ale.  But they're wrong to call them wet or fresh.

I can't decide if you're half right or half wrong.  In principle I agree with you, though it is pretty good beer.
Title: Re: Pre-planning a Harvest Ale... Please help.
Post by: dano14041 on May 20, 2011, 09:24:21 PM
how about 'vine ripe'?
'Fresh dried'?
or my favorite marketing BS 'Most Unique'

How about "Harvest" hopped. From Bine to Kettle.  ;D