Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: dannyjed on May 29, 2011, 02:19:18 PM

Title: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: dannyjed on May 29, 2011, 02:19:18 PM
I just picked some of this up and I was going to use it for a Scottish 70 and possibly for a IPA or IIPA.  I have never used this strain before and I was wondering if anyone could give me some idea of what to expect.  Any comments would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on May 29, 2011, 03:43:22 PM
Clean yeast, works well at temps down to 50F.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: bonjour on May 29, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
This yeast can throw a very nice low smoke phenolic,  Great for Scottish/Strong Scotch Ales.  Solid yeast, is otherwise clean,  I like it a lot.  As Denny said it performs well cool and can easily handle higher alcohols.

The hops in an IPA or IIPA will totally overpower any smoke so don't worry about that aspect.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 30, 2011, 03:15:21 AM
I also like this yeast.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: dannyjed on May 30, 2011, 02:21:42 PM
Thanks- I think I will start out with a Scottish today and make a IIPA next.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: gordonstrong on May 30, 2011, 03:04:09 PM
I typically use it around 58F.  Worked well to ferment a very strong Scotch ale (1130-1140), so it can handle alcohol too.  I like it.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: brewallday on May 31, 2011, 09:06:39 PM
It worked really well for me in a rye pale ale.  The yeast lets the hops come through but still retains some maltiness in my experience with it.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: thomasbarnes on June 01, 2011, 09:37:50 PM
This yeast can throw a very nice low smoke phenolic,  Great for Scottish/Strong Scotch Ales. 

This must be the origin of the "peated Scottish ale" myth.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on June 01, 2011, 10:16:50 PM
This yeast can throw a very nice low smoke phenolic,  Great for Scottish/Strong Scotch Ales. 

This must be the origin of the "peated Scottish ale" myth.

That's what I attribute it to, but Kris England (IIRC) has done some research relating it to the water used.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: thomasbarnes on June 03, 2011, 06:07:06 AM
This must be the origin of the "peated Scottish ale" myth.

That's what I attribute it to, but Kris England (IIRC) has done some research relating it to the water used.

I could easily see it being a combination of water (minerally notes being taken as "earthy"), plus yeast strain (low levels of phenols, possibly plus earthy notes).

I'm just surprised that Greg Noonan missed this fact in his book "Scottish Ales."

Do anyone know the precise conditions which cause the yeast to produce earthy and/or smoky notes?
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: darren on July 01, 2011, 05:49:42 PM
Wouldn't it have something to do with the malting process?  Back 200 years ago, they would have used peat to fire the furnaces and kiln the grain.  All of the malt would have been slightly, but unintentionally, peat smoky, right?
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on July 01, 2011, 05:53:06 PM
Wouldn't it have something to do with the malting process?  Back 200 years ago, they would have used peat to fire the furnaces and kiln the grain.  All of the malt would have been slightly, but unintentionally, peat smoky, right?

I'm not sure that's something that could be proven.  At least, I've never seen any solid evidence of it.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: thomasbarnes on July 05, 2011, 06:44:47 AM
Wouldn't it have something to do with the malting process?  Back 200 years ago, they would have used peat to fire the furnaces and kiln the grain.  All of the malt would have been slightly, but unintentionally, peat smoky, right?

By the early 19th century, improved indirectly heated kilns meant that malt didn't pick up (much) smoke character, regardless of the fuel used. Also, by that time, brewers were doing everything they could to avoid smoky character in their beer, since it was considered to be a fault. For example, in the early 18th century (~300 years ago), one of the reasons why porter was aged was to give time for the smoke character (from "blown" brown malt) to drop a bit.

That said, anything is possible. Locally-produced malt used for privately-brewed ("house brewed") beer could have had some peat character, but I can't imagine that the big Scottish breweries in Alloa, Edinburgh and elsewhere would have welcomed it.

More to the point, Scottish "shilling ales" and "wee heavy" are based on late 20th century examples. By that time, there was no way that Scottish brewers were using peat in their maltings, nor were they using water with a peat character in their brewing. It would be about as likely as one of the big Munich breweries "accidentally" using beechwood smoked rauchmalt in one of their lagers.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: thcipriani on July 08, 2011, 02:47:47 AM
This yeast can throw a very nice low smoke phenolic,  Great for Scottish/Strong Scotch Ales. 

This must be the origin of the "peated Scottish ale" myth.

That's what I attribute it to, but Kris England (IIRC) has done some research relating it to the water used.

I've seen that - here:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=45877&start=15

I just got back from Scotland and the water didn't have any sort of peat character that I could taste, although, admittedly, I didn't get much into the highlands. Caledonian and Belhaven had nothing I would call peaty - the were just clean, with a subdued caramel sweetness, they were dry and malt-forward beers. Jamil's Scottish recipe actually gets you pretty close. I have no idea where this idea originated - I just wish any reference to any smoke perception would get out of the guidelines. I hate judging this category and then in MBOS you get an "Other smoked beer" from the other side of the table.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on July 08, 2011, 02:51:34 AM
I just wish any reference to any smoke perception would get out of the guidelines.

A-Freakin-Men!
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 08, 2014, 05:44:44 PM
How does 1728 do at warmer temps?  I see Wyeast states 75F as the upper temperature limit and everyone seems to ferment this one cool. 

I don't have temperature control, but I have a chilly basement.  The ambient temps should be a steady 66-67F.  The beer will be a 7% IPA.  Guessing the fermentation temps would be 70-72.  I can pitch colder than ambient. 

I don't mind fruity esters, but would like to avoid fusels.  Anyone ever use 1728 in the low 70s?
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: bengelbrau on June 08, 2014, 07:00:08 PM
1728 is a very vigorous fermenter. The first time I used it was at 60, and the inside of my refrigerator looked like a failed 5th grade science experiment within 36 hours.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 08, 2014, 07:05:04 PM
I use an 8 gallon bucket with a 5-6 gallon batch.  A blow off tube necessity is rare even with a big starter and plenty of pure O2, but I'll keep an eye on it, thanks.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on June 08, 2014, 08:31:28 PM
1728 is my house yeast. I use it for Scottish, APA, IPA, Northern English Brown, ESB, etc. Its clean at 50-58, starts getting an English (UK) fruity ester above 58. Im running a Scottish 80/- and an APA on it right now at 62ยบ.

I never get anything that resembles smoke from it. I firmly beleive that is an old wives tale that isn't allowed to die. Based on about 9 months and 30 or so batches at varying temps and grist bills. If someone is getting a hint of smoke from 1728 I'm convinced its due to trying to find it too hard.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: mabrungard on June 08, 2014, 09:37:19 PM
I never get anything that resembles smoke from it. I firmly beleive that is an old wives tale that isn't allowed to die. Based on about 9 months and 30 or so batches at varying temps and grist bills. If someone is getting a hint of smoke from 1728 I'm convinced its due to trying to find it too hard.

Jim, I was inclined to call it a bigfoot myth. But I have experienced it ONCE. One of my good friends brewed a 60 and it definitely threw a very light smokey phenol and he had no use of smoked grain in the grist. It was a lovely compliment to that beer. He has since tried several times to replicate that yeast-derived smokiness with NO success. I don't know how to coax that yeast into producing that phenol, but I do know it's capable.

I'll welcome anyone's guidance on what conditions help that yeast to throw that phenol.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 08, 2014, 10:38:12 PM
I've never noticed the smokey phenol with 1728 ,and I've used it a bunch. But almost always maybe between 58 - 62F where it's pretty clean.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: jeffy on June 09, 2014, 12:48:01 AM
A lot of folks will identify a smokey taste from the slightest bit of scorched malt in the bottom of the mash tun or kettle. 
I just had a homebrew at our club meeting that several people thought had a smoke flavor, but to me it was more burnt.  Turned out the brewer confessed that he had scorched a bit of grain.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: erockrph on June 09, 2014, 02:11:46 AM
A lot of folks will identify a smokey taste from the slightest bit of scorched malt in the bottom of the mash tun or kettle. 
I just had a homebrew at our club meeting that several people thought had a smoke flavor, but to me it was more burnt.  Turned out the brewer confessed that he had scorched a bit of grain.

I have long suspected that either kettle caramelization, roast barley, or the combination of the two is responsible for this smoky note. I'm not saying that it couldn't be directly from the yeast, but there are just so many other possible process- or ingredient-related sources of this flavor that I feel those are way more likely. A clean-fermenting ale yeast combined with a simple recipe leave nothing to hide behind that might otherwise mask this character.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on June 09, 2014, 02:32:58 PM
I'll keep a more open mind to it scince Martin says he experienced it once, but so far I have not.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: chumley on June 09, 2014, 06:13:52 PM
Count me as another who has never got any smoky ester from 1728.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on June 09, 2014, 08:00:33 PM
Count me as another who has never got any smoky ester from 1728.

I'm more than willing to admit that possibly the reason I found it a couple times is due to the power of suggestion.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 09, 2014, 10:09:51 PM
I'm going out on a limb and predicting no one here has fermented 1728 in the low 70s.  Dag gum brewers with their fancy temperature control!  (kicks dirt)  I'll do it anyway.

I have a spare fridge that I use for cold crashes and to hold bottled beer.  A temperature controller seems so tempting, but it would only be marginally useful for 2-3 months a year.  I typically select yeast according to ambient basement temperature.  Summer is mostly saison time.  Occasionally I want something else.  It has to be unusually hot for most of the summer for my basement to get above 68.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: tommymorris on June 09, 2014, 11:08:03 PM

I'm going out on a limb and predicting no one here has fermented 1728 in the low 70s.  Dag gum brewers with their fancy temperature control!  (kicks dirt)  I'll do it anyway.

I have a spare fridge that I use for cold crashes and to hold bottled beer.  A temperature controller seems so tempting, but it would only be marginally useful for 2-3 months a year.  I typically select yeast according to ambient basement temperature.  Summer is mostly saison time.  Occasionally I want something else.  It has to be unusually hot for most of the summer for my basement to get above 68.

You may be able to drop the temp of your fermenter a few degrees by:

1) place the fermenter in an inch or two of water
2) place a t-shirt "on" fermenter with bottom of shirt in water (carboys can wear shirts)
3) blow a fan on the fermenter and shirt

The evaporation of the water will cool the fermenter. There is no "control" in this set up, but, in a dry ambient you get some cooling effect.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: ynotbrusum on June 10, 2014, 01:59:57 AM
I made Jamil's recipe with the "carmelization" approach this past spring and I think I noted the slightest hint of a smoky phenol, but then figured it was an after-taste from the toffee notes in some weird way.  I fermented pretty low, so maybe that had something to do with it - or perhaps a slight overpitch...just searching out loud as to what might have caused it or caused me to perceive it, if it wasn't there.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on June 10, 2014, 02:30:26 AM
Maybe it was there.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: reverseapachemaster on June 10, 2014, 02:48:13 PM
Possibly a product of under or overpitching?
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: chumley on June 10, 2014, 07:51:35 PM
I scorched a decoction once when brewing an Oktoberfest, and got a smoky taste in the beer.  Maybe the wort carmelization process does a similar thing.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 10, 2014, 09:31:18 PM


You may be able to drop the temp of your fermenter a few degrees by:

1) place the fermenter in an inch or two of water
2) place a t-shirt "on" fermenter with bottom of shirt in water (carboys can wear shirts)
3) blow a fan on the fermenter and shirt

The evaporation of the water will cool the fermenter. There is no "control" in this set up, but, in a dry ambient you get some cooling effect.


Thanks for the tips.  I was aware of them, but thank you. 

I think I'm more interested in seeing what the yeast does when the ambient temp is 66ish and the fermentation temp is 70ish.  I'll pitch cold at 58 and let it rise naturally.  Wish me luck.

Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: yso191 on June 11, 2014, 04:26:00 AM
Please report back how it goes.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 11, 2014, 09:05:53 PM
Sure, I'll let you know when it's done.  Brewing it soon.
Title: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: tommymorris on June 11, 2014, 09:29:06 PM
I looked back through my notes and found a beer with WLP028 Edinburgh Ale. This yeast is supposed to be the same as Wyeast 1728 Scottish.

I made a blonde ale with
96% 2-row
4% Caramel Pilsner (8L)
29 IBU Magnum @ 60 min
WLP028 2L starter decanted
Cooled to 64F before pitch
Fermented at 67F with temp probe taped to bottle.

Beer was very clean. Malty. No diacetyl, fusels, or ester off flavors. I  thought the beer was clean like a lager.

This case may be slightly different because the temp measured was the temp of the carboy not the ambient air. But I thought the data might be useful.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: denny on June 11, 2014, 10:15:30 PM
Based on my own experience, I don't think it's the same yeast.  Maybe it started out the same, but it doesn't seem to ferment as cold as 1728.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: tommymorris on June 12, 2014, 01:42:56 AM

Based on my own experience, I don't think it's the same yeast.  Maybe it started out the same, but it doesn't seem to ferment as cold as 1728.

Interesting. I have never used Wyeast 1728. I always wonder about those tables that show equivalence between the yeast brands.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 17, 2014, 12:09:08 AM
Please report back how it goes.

I bit the bullet and bought a temperature controller, so there will be no report of a warmer 1728 fermentation from me, sorry.   
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: yso191 on June 17, 2014, 03:00:19 AM
Well that's the way to go anyway.  Hope it turns out very well for you
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: kramerog on June 17, 2014, 02:38:55 PM
Wouldn't it have something to do with the malting process?  Back 200 years ago, they would have used peat to fire the furnaces and kiln the grain.  All of the malt would have been slightly, but unintentionally, peat smoky, right?

I'm not sure that's something that could be proven.  At least, I've never seen any solid evidence of it.

Ron Pattinson said at NHC 2014 that back in the day all the Scottish breweries malted their own malt.  The malt would most likely have been malted near the breweries.  All the breweries were located in the lowlands where coal was plentiful and peat is not economical to transport because of its poor heating value.  Thus he concludes that it is highly unlikely that peat was used to make malt for beer.

On the other hand the Scotch distilleries are located where peat is plentiful. 
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Kinetic on June 17, 2014, 09:00:45 PM
Well that's the way to go anyway.  Hope it turns out very well for you

Thanks.  I've been making good beer without it for years because my basement is pretty cold most of the year.  I finally decided that I didn't want the season to dictate my yeast selection anymore.  Now I can be one of those guys who says you can't make good beer without temperature control.   :D
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on June 17, 2014, 11:21:45 PM
Wouldn't it have something to do with the malting process?  Back 200 years ago, they would have used peat to fire the furnaces and kiln the grain.  All of the malt would have been slightly, but unintentionally, peat smoky, right?

I'm not sure that's something that could be proven.  At least, I've never seen any solid evidence of it.

Ron Pattinson said at NHC 2014 that back in the day all the Scottish breweries malted their own malt.  The malt would most likely have been malted near the breweries.  All the breweries were located in the lowlands where coal was plentiful and peat is not economical to transport because of its poor heating value.  Thus he concludes that it is highly unlikely that peat was used to make malt for beer.

On the other hand the Scotch distilleries are located where peat is plentiful.

Ya, but what about before coal?

Just kidding. My peer review vote goes to No Peat, No Smoke, Ever.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on June 17, 2014, 11:32:24 PM
+1 to that. I remember one of my first AG batches was an 80/ and (back in the day) a lot of the recipes had peated malt as an ingredient. So I went with it - hated it. Gave most of it away.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: scottNU on August 15, 2014, 06:41:25 PM
Anyone have any thoughts about this yeast for an Imperial Stout?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on August 17, 2014, 12:06:23 AM
Depends on what you want, obviously. 1728 is clean cool. It will go big too. I say try it. Pitch at about 60 and when the krausen starts falling walk it up to 65-68.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: majorvices on August 17, 2014, 01:17:55 PM
Count me as another who has never got any smoky ester from 1728.

I'm more than willing to admit that possibly the reason I found it a couple times is due to the power of suggestion.

I stopped reading at this point so not sure what comes next but, I contract brew a series of scotch ales for a local pub and I get a little bit of smoke out of the beer. It's faint. It could be because I boil it for 3 hours. I dunno. But it is definitely there and I have wondered if it is from the yeast.

You can see some of the untapped comments below also mention smoke. (It's better than a 3.7 stars out of 5 ... whatever ::)

https://untappd.com/b/yellowhammer-brewing-forranach-120/567519
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: scottNU on August 21, 2014, 08:35:21 PM
Depends on what you want, obviously. 1728 is clean cool. It will go big too. I say try it. Pitch at about 60 and when the krausen starts falling walk it up to 65-68.

Thanks. I will give it a shot.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: klickitat jim on August 21, 2014, 08:51:54 PM
Depends on what you want, obviously. 1728 is clean cool. It will go big too. I say try it. Pitch at about 60 and when the krausen starts falling walk it up to 65-68.

Thanks. I will give it a shot.

Don't forget to report back
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: scottNU on August 21, 2014, 09:53:24 PM
Depends on what you want, obviously. 1728 is clean cool. It will go big too. I say try it. Pitch at about 60 and when the krausen starts falling walk it up to 65-68.

Thanks. I will give it a shot.

Don't forget to report back

Will do.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: Fermented-minds on August 27, 2014, 07:50:44 PM
I have used this strain a lot for my Scotch Ales, and I typically ferment at about 55-56 F. The profile is really nice with wonderful malt notes shinning through and the attenuation is great.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: ynotbrusum on August 28, 2014, 04:51:16 PM
I've rarely used a fermenter where I can see the krausen, to know when it has fallen.  Do you know about how long it takes this strain to reach that point at those cooler temperatures?  60 for Jim and 55-56 for Fermented-minds? I would be glad to hear your experiences, as I am pretty convinced that I will be keeping a 60-70 Schilling Scottish Ale on my regular tap rotation this fall and through the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 28, 2014, 06:07:59 PM
I use it @ 58 -60F for Scottish styles and it's very clean. Love it.