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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: gmac on July 04, 2011, 03:33:17 PM

Title: What is candi sugar?
Post by: gmac on July 04, 2011, 03:33:17 PM
I'm not sure I really know what candi sugar is.  How does that differ from plain table sugar, especially "light" candi?  Our sugar is mostly from beets so I don't know how much different it would be.  Is it worth buying for a saison or would a lb of table sugar get me close enough to where I need to be?
Thanks
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: hamiltont on July 04, 2011, 03:59:23 PM
"Belgian candi sugar" is basically "Inverted sugar" Here's a WIKI discussion about Inverted sugar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invert_sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invert_sugar) To be honest, I have just as good of luck using basic table sugar. Cheers!!!
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: denny on July 04, 2011, 04:04:21 PM
Actually, I don't believe the candi rock sugar is inverted.  It's simply lumps of (usually) beet sugar.  IMO, it adds no more flavor than table sugar, even the dark rocks.  The candi syrup is a different story, though.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: gmac on July 04, 2011, 04:10:06 PM
So what I'm hearing is - use a lb of sugar.

What about corn syrup instead since it's usually more fructose.  Regular sucrose is fructose + glucose.  Any thoughts on using light corn syrup instead of sugar?  I'm fine with sugar, now I'm just curious.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: denny on July 04, 2011, 04:45:25 PM
So what I'm hearing is - use a lb of sugar.

What about corn syrup instead since it's usually more fructose.  Regular sucrose is fructose + glucose.  Any thoughts on using light corn syrup instead of sugar?  I'm fine with sugar, now I'm just curious.

Make sure it's a brewers corn syrup, not one for cooking that make have salt or other flavors added.  But even then, you're not gaining anything.  Regular table sugar will work just as well.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: gmac on July 04, 2011, 07:52:41 PM
When do you add sugar?  I just brewed an amber ale and I was shooting for 1.060-1.062 but came up quite short in my efficiency.  I calculated at 85% but only got 76% (I am using a new 2-row which may be part of the problem).  So, my gravity is only about 1.050.  Can I add a lb of sugar to bring it up higher now or should I wait until the yeast have had a chance to munch on the maltose first? 

This beer is fairly heavily hopped, at least for me (1.5 oz Centennial @ 75, 1 oz Casdade at 30, 1/2 oz Cascade at 15, 1/2 oz at 0, 1 oz to go in for dry hops).  Being lower gravity than I expected will it be out of balance with lower alcohol?  Or just leave it at session strength and live with it?
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: denny on July 04, 2011, 09:18:11 PM
When do you add sugar?  I just brewed an amber ale and I was shooting for 1.060-1.062 but came up quite short in my efficiency.  I calculated at 85% but only got 76% (I am using a new 2-row which may be part of the problem).  So, my gravity is only about 1.050.  Can I add a lb of sugar to bring it up higher now or should I wait until the yeast have had a chance to munch on the maltose first? 

This beer is fairly heavily hopped, at least for me (1.5 oz Centennial @ 75, 1 oz Casdade at 30, 1/2 oz Cascade at 15, 1/2 oz at 0, 1 oz to go in for dry hops).  Being lower gravity than I expected will it be out of balance with lower alcohol?  Or just leave it at session strength and live with it?

I generally add sugar early in the boil, but that's just so I don't forget about it.  You can add it just about any time, though.  Mix it with some boiled and cooled water to dissolve it first.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: nateo on July 04, 2011, 10:02:17 PM
Corn sugar is just D-glucose, or dextrose. Table sugar is sucrose, which is 50%/50% levulose/D-glucose. Glucose is the right-hand molecule, and levulose is the left-hand molecule. Beet sugar is also just sucrose.

During sugar refining, the manufacturer removes sugar from the plant material (sugar cane, beets, dates, etc.), and then removes the remaining plant material from the sugar. Plain white sugar is basically only sucrose. Sucrose is sucrose, no matter where it came from. Chemically, white sugar from beets is identical to white sugar from canes.

Yeast have enzymes that break sucrose into dextrose/levulose, so they have no problem eating sucrose, levulose, or dextrose. How they metabolize each sugar is pretty much the same. I've read that some breweries that make weizens will add dextrose to their wort because it encourages yeast to make either 4VG or isoamyl acetate, I can't remember which one.

Candi syrup is made from sucrose that has been cooked into a dark syrup by a bit of caramelization, and a lot of Maillard reactions.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tankdeer on July 07, 2011, 07:27:32 PM
I generally add sugar early in the boil, but that's just so I don't forget about it.  You can add it just about any time, though.  Mix it with some boiled and cooled water to dissolve it first.
Same here, unless the beer has an inordinately high percentage of sugar, but that's not often.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: bluesman on July 07, 2011, 09:05:30 PM
I generally add sugar early in the boil, but that's just so I don't forget about it.  You can add it just about any time, though.  Mix it with some boiled and cooled water to dissolve it first.
Same here, unless the beer has an inordinately high percentage of sugar, but that's not often.

I usually add sugar during the last 10 minutes of the boil. YMMV.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tubercle on July 07, 2011, 09:38:02 PM


Its best to add it to the boil if known at that time.

 When it becomes necessary as in the OP's case I always add sugar using the 1/2 rule.

 If you need to add 2 lbs then add half day 1 (1 lb), half of whats left day 2 (1/2 lb), half of whats left day 3 (1/4 lb) then the rest day 4 ( 1/4 lb).

 Don't ask me why because I don't have a clue. Just an old wine maker's trick. To keep from stressing the yeast I guess.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: nateo on July 07, 2011, 10:47:43 PM
Some people add sugar late in the boil because increasing the sugar content will make the wort darken more. So if you care about what color your beer is, and want a really pale golden strong or something, I'd add it post boil.

I've also heard that when you add it to the boil, the yeast MAY eat the simple sugars first, some of them may lose their ability to break down complex sugars, then struggle to chew through the malt sugars. In practice, this is probably not an issue, at least it has never been an issue for me.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: bluesman on July 08, 2011, 02:06:37 AM
Some people add sugar late in the boil because increasing the sugar content will make the wort darken more.

Adding the sugar later in the boil will also allow for better hop utilization in the beginning of the boil.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: astrivian on July 27, 2011, 07:44:39 PM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).

Personally, i like corn sugar because it just adds to ABV without doing much else (i pretty much only do high gravity beers). Adding a pound or two of sugar cuts down on the malt you need by a bit. For light beers like trippels or golden ales, i always add sugar at the very end of the boil so it doesn't change the color of the beer. For darker beers, i liked adding at the beginning of the 90 minute boil for the same reasons mentioned on this thread.

I used dark candi sugar syrup once for a dubbel but i messed up other aspects of the beer so i couldn't tell what it was actually like. The sugar tasted good though :)
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: morticaixavier on July 27, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).

Personally, i like corn sugar because it just adds to ABV without doing much else (i pretty much only do high gravity beers). Adding a pound or two of sugar cuts down on the malt you need by a bit. For light beers like trippels or golden ales, i always add sugar at the very end of the boil so it doesn't change the color of the beer. For darker beers, i liked adding at the beginning of the 90 minute boil for the same reasons mentioned on this thread.

I used dark candi sugar syrup once for a dubbel but i messed up other aspects of the beer so i couldn't tell what it was actually like. The sugar tasted good though :)

you can save a little money by just using table sugar in place of corn sugar. not really much difference there. I have never been able to tell the difference. I have not used candi sugar so I can't speak to that though.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tschmidlin on July 27, 2011, 11:09:45 PM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tubercle on July 27, 2011, 11:53:32 PM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.


 +1 on that.

 Yeast are opportunity scavengers. They survive to reproduce.

 Different sugars might screw up their little minds a little bit but they adapt. Other wise they wouldn't have lasted millions of years.
 
 This is science as Tubercle understands it 8)
 
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: euge on July 28, 2011, 04:17:05 AM
Table sugar is a fairly neutral adjunct. And like the others I see no ill effects except maybe too much can thin out a beer and screw up the balance of the finished product. For example ending up with too much alcohol and not enough sweetness to balance with either the alcohol or hops.

Early on in my brewing career I advocated large amounts of sugar up to 40%. Had success with this approach by kegging around 1.012 even if fermentation was still active. Chilling the keg would slow the fermentation enough for me to finish it without percieved ill affect. However, not halting the fermentation will result in a schlitz-like beverage.

Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: ajk on July 28, 2011, 12:42:56 PM
As for when to add it, I like making a syrup and adding it to primary after high kr√§usen.  For big beers, it seems to improve attenuation, especially if you do it bit by bit (incremental feeding).  I don't have any hard data on it, though.

Basic Brewing Radio did an episode (http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr05-07-09candi.mp3) on making sugar syrups, and a helpful listener put together a summary of the procedure (http://c4.libsyn.com/media/18257/sugarguidelines.pdf?nvb=20100520010324&nva=20100521011324&sid=5c69b4ae38ea94e6a4847cf1f88de0bf&t=0cb8473205453f55a10a4).  I just made the double-stage deep amber syrup last night and added some of it to a Belgian Dubbel that had been fermenting.  I'm hoping to trade what was left over for beer bullets (I assume it tastes great in coffee, over cheesecake, etc.).
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: 1vertical on July 28, 2011, 01:49:01 PM
found this a while back for the adventurous...sounds like decent results

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/ (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/)
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: astrivian on July 28, 2011, 10:30:12 PM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.

"In addition to the lack of nutrients, wort with a high percentage of refined sugar (about 30%) may cause the yeast to lose the ability to secrete the enzymes that allow them to ferment maltose, resulting in a stuck fermentation." (Palmer, p. 86)

He does use the qualifier "may."
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: nateo on July 28, 2011, 11:58:23 PM
found this a while back for the adventurous...sounds like decent results

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/ (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/candi-syrup-experiment-trying-clone-d2-220882/)

Hey, that's my thing! If anyone has any questions about it, I'd be happy to answer them. That thread got really long and cumbersome. At the end of those trials, I came up with something I'd consider as good or better than D2. Flavor-wise it was really close to D2, but the color wasn't quite there. Beer I've made with it were more like La Trappe than St. Bernardus, in color and flavor.

The next thing on my list is to make a syrup that tastes like whatever they put in St. Bernardus that makes it so chocolatey.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: alikocho on July 29, 2011, 09:05:16 AM
According to How to Brew, yeast can lose their ability to ferment maltose (from the malt) if there is too much simple sugar in the beer. The limit the author gave for sugar was 30% of the total OG for the wort. For five gallons, 30% is a whole lot of sugar. I added 2 pounds to some of my higher gravity beers with no issues (got 80% AA).
Does JP actually say they lose the ability to ferment it, or that they just won't?  Do you know the page by any chance?

I ask because it is very unlikely they lose their ability to ferment maltose.  They may not ferment it to completion in that batch, but that's not the same thing as losing the ability to do it.  If you took the yeast from that batch and fed it maltose I have no doubt it wouldn't have a problem.  I grow yeast all of the time in 100% glucose solutions (well, 2-10% glucose, but it's 100% of the sugar) and they have no problems transitioning to starter wort.

I don't have a page number for you, but it's come up on Brew Strong a couple of times. I think he says they lose the ability to ferment polysaccharides if they acclimatize to a monosaccharide environment. Whether this is actually the case, I do not know.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tschmidlin on July 31, 2011, 07:11:04 AM
I just don't believe it at all.  In that batch, maybe they'll stop fermenting it because of a combination of factors with the trigger being a high percentage of glucose to start, but maybe not.  If John is right though, wouldn't every kit-and-kilo batch that Aussie brewers made be ridiculously sweet?  Those are more than 30% glucose, and while I haven't heard much good about those types of brews, I've never heard that they were cloying.

I grow yeast on glucose all of the time and this has never, ever happened to me.  I'll have to talk to John about it and see where he's getting his info and what the parameters of the experiments are.  It may be that when the source says "polysaccharide" they are referring specifically to more than two sugar molecules, since a two sugar chain is typically just called a disaccharide and not included in the polysaccharide term.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: orangehero on August 05, 2011, 04:07:07 AM
See 12.5.8 Regulation of sugar metabolism in Brewing: Science and Practice by Briggs, Boulton, Brookes, Stevens.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tschmidlin on August 05, 2011, 07:59:40 AM
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: orangehero on October 01, 2012, 08:17:05 AM
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.

Have you investigated this further?

I can't find any mention that yeast lose the ability to ferment maltose either, only temporary inhibition.

I don't think it would make sense to talk about polysaccharides since the limit most strains of saccharomyces can ferment is maltotriose.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: tschmidlin on October 01, 2012, 09:27:51 PM
Ok - are you saying read it because it supports what I'm saying, or contradicts?  Because to me it agrees with what I said.

Have you investigated this further?

I can't find any mention that yeast lose the ability to ferment maltose either, only temporary inhibition.

I don't think it would make sense to talk about polysaccharides since the limit most strains of saccharomyces can ferment is maltotriose.
I haven't, because I haven't found any credible source that says they actually lose the ability to ferment maltose.  Yes, in the presence of glucose they will not ferment maltose - it's called catabolite repression.  They preferentially ferment the glucose because it is easier.  Once the glucose is consumed they ferment the disaccharides - it's not a hard switch, just a general trend.

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding that they will lose their ability to ferment maltose.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: morticaixavier on October 01, 2012, 09:33:47 PM
We just had a presentation at my club about yeast and he mentioned this preferencial fermentation thing. The theory he put forth is that once the yeast is done with the simple sugars, if there were enough of them to start with, the ethanol concentration is high enough to interfere with the yeast's ability to continue fermenting the maltose. but there would have to be ALOT of sugar for that to happen I would think.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: nateo on October 01, 2012, 09:35:23 PM
Any appreciable decrease in the ability to ferment maltose would show up in the attenuation of the wort. It's probably not a go/no-go thing, but more a sliding scale thing.
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: brewmonk on October 06, 2012, 05:12:18 PM
Here's info from one of the major "candi sugar" suppliers for beer in Belgium:

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMaltingSugar.asp?Language=English (http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleMaltingSugar.asp?Language=English)
Title: Re: What is candi sugar?
Post by: nateo on October 08, 2012, 05:55:28 PM
I'm pretty sure D2 is the Candimic dark 78%