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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: rbowers on July 06, 2011, 01:30:24 PM

Title: Saison Brew Day
Post by: rbowers on July 06, 2011, 01:30:24 PM
Going to brew a saison for the the first time next week.  The recipe is based off a Saison Dupont clone I found.  From what little I have read it seems higher fermentation temp is the way to go.  Using Wyeast 3711 French Saison strain.  Any additional suggestions?  I was also considering dry hopping it to add some additional aroma- the only dry hopping I've done is with high AA hops in IPAs which I don't think is the goal here.  The beer is to be brewed with EKG and Styrian goldings; just use the same hops for the dry hop?   Plan to mash in at 150 I think for 90 min. 
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: narvin on July 06, 2011, 01:35:58 PM
I'd mash lower... 145 wouldn't be too low.  Also, if you're basing it off of Saison Dupont, you'll want the Dupont strain, which is 3724.  If you stick with the French Saison strain, you don't need to ferment as hot (or mash as low).
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: theoman on July 07, 2011, 08:11:42 AM
150 is fine, I think, if you want a bit of malt character in your saison. If you want a drier, more traditional saison, maybe mash lower. If you go with the Dupont yeast, most of the aroma comes from the yeast, so I think you're right to be careful with the dry hops. I'd avoid the citrusy stuff, but I wouldn't be afraid of the higher AA hops, depending on the strain. I bet Nelson Souvin would be awesome. Northern brewer might be good, too. Or, stick with a goldings for they dry hop. I'm pretty sure that's what Dupont uses in their seasonal dry-hopped saison and it's damn good. Personally, I'd try a higher AA hops, especially if I mashed at a higher temp. But that's just me. The beauty of dry-hopping is that it's easy to change your mind at the last minute. Give the beer a taste/smell after a week or so in the fermenter and use your instinct.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: oscarvan on July 07, 2011, 08:40:18 PM
Saison, much like Trappist, is not so much a style.....it's a mind set. I am hooked, for one. After reading "Brew like a monk" and "Farmhouse ales" I am having a ball roaming in this field of brewing nirvana.

Don't worry about the numbers or the ingredients too much, "they" didn't, at least not like the maniacal clone brewer does. Go with the flow..... play with it. Try this, that......
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: ukolowiczd on July 07, 2011, 09:09:59 PM
I agree, the Wyeast Belgian Saison is the Dupont strain and it loves temps in the 80's. It does get stuck though, so patience is necessary. Also definitely a low mash temp to get more fermentable sugars that will get you a dry beer (rather than a non-fermentable sugar, full bodied beer 150F+). My only addition here is if you have time, buy and read Phil Markowski's book "Farmhouse Ales". It was one of the most informative books on Saison, Grisette and Bier de Gaurde I have ever read. If you want to skip the first half "history" section you can and get right to the brewing and recipes chapters. DuPont is in there along with Fantome, Ommengang and many more.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: bluesman on July 07, 2011, 09:18:18 PM
My only addition here is if you have time, buy and read Phil Markowski's book "Farmhouse Ales". It was one of the most informative books on Saison, Grisette and Bier de Gaurde I have ever read.

+1  Great book...very informative

I think the yeast is the key to the highway for this style.

Once you find a yeast you like you must then undersatnd how it can be manipulated, which will take trial and error. Fermentation temp is a critical variable to the style.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: dbeechum on July 07, 2011, 09:38:37 PM
For the 3724 / WLP565 duo of yeast I offer the following advice

- Pitch cold (63-64)
- Pitch big
- Let it free rise to where it wants to go and just buffer the swings with water.
- No airlock (I use foil instead)

Do that and you should be good and have a beer that finishes on time.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: rbowers on July 10, 2011, 10:11:49 PM
Rounding out the recipe notes here- I have not done a 90 minute boil yet.  What should I consider a fair starting volume to be to endure the boil of 90 minutes and not end up with syrup?  I was also considering adding some grans of paradise- has anyone ever used these?  What can I expect and what is a good amount to use?  Do I add them at the start of the boil, during primary fermentation, or what? 
I am using Wyeast 3711 French Saison and was planning on holding it in the mid 70s.  Is there a benefit to starting a little lower and ratcheting up the temp every day or so to a final goal temp? 
Looking forward to this one.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: richardt on July 10, 2011, 10:19:48 PM
rbowers,
You'll find WY3711 (French Saison) to be a real fast fermenter (say 1 - 1.5 weeks max with fermentation temps in high 60's to low 70's) compared to WY3724.  If you use the latter, follow Drew's advice.

Drew,
Curious as to why you recommend no airlock?  Does it create too much CO2 pressure if used?
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: Hokerer on July 10, 2011, 11:43:04 PM
Rounding out the recipe notes here- I have not done a 90 minute boil yet.  What should I consider a fair starting volume to be to endure the boil of 90 minutes and not end up with syrup? 

Just multiply whatever your boiloff amount is for a 60 minute boil by one and a half.  Boiloff rates tend to be pretty constant so if you boil of one gallon in a 60 minute boil, you'll probably boil off 1.5 gallons in 90 minutes.  Just adjust your starting volume accordingly.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: corkybstewart on July 11, 2011, 02:58:44 AM
I'm sipping a krug full of this year's saison right now.  It's a strong saison, around 1.80 OG, and it took forever to ferment even in the heat of southern NM.  I kegged it at 1.012, left it in the garage while I was on vacation and came back to a 1.007 beer.  I used a huge starter of wyeast saison(can't remember the number) and it  still stalled for 10 days at 1.040.  I harvested some trub to make a new starter and repitched it to get the beer moving again.
It's a PITA to brew but well worth it.  I brewed 10 gallons and added brett B to the other 5 gallons.  It will sit all summer and I'll tap it at Oktoberfest.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: Will's Swill on July 11, 2011, 11:17:28 PM
Wow!  1.8 -> 1.012!  That's not a saison, that's a bourbon!   ;D
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: oscarvan on July 12, 2011, 01:26:29 AM
I'm sipping a krug full of this year's saison right now.  It's a strong saison, around 1.80 OG, and it took forever to ferment even in the heat of southern NM.  I kegged it at 1.012, left it in the garage while I was on vacation and came back to a 1.007 beer.  I used a huge starter of wyeast saison(can't remember the number) and it  still stalled for 10 days at 1.040.  I harvested some trub to make a new starter and repitched it to get the beer moving again.
It's a PITA to brew but well worth it.  I brewed 10 gallons and added brett B to the other 5 gallons.  It will sit all summer and I'll tap it at Oktoberfest.


Given time, Brett will take carte of the last points, and then some.
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: Al Equihua on July 12, 2011, 03:29:52 PM
very interesting about a Saison, maybe one day i'll make it for me....
actually i never taste it... only a homebrew but im sure is more tasty..way to moreeee
Title: Re: Saison Brew Day
Post by: ajdarnel on July 12, 2011, 04:52:46 PM
I'm not sure if you are using the same recipe, but I also brewed a Saison Dupont clone last year, and believe I used the other yeast mentioned (3724?). It was rather slow, taking about 6 weeks to reach final gravity, I also added one (maybe 2) dry packs of champagne yeast somewhere around week 2-3 to help make it REALLY dry. I mashed around 148. It was one of my best beers ever!! Good luck!