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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: mtnandy on July 09, 2011, 01:32:00 pm

Title: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: mtnandy on July 09, 2011, 01:32:00 pm
I went to my LHBS to pick up a smack pack of Wyeast 2206 for my late O-fest that I will be brewing next weekend, and they were out of that and most other varieties of lager yeast. My question is this: out of the in-stock yeasts listed below, which would be the best substitute? I have to get one by tomorrow to have time for my starter.

2000 Budvar Lager
2007 Pilsen Lager
2001 Urquell Lager
2035 American Lager
2565 Kolsch
1007 German Ale
WLP001 California Ale

I went ahead and picked up some of the 2000, but I might just save it for a later brew if there is a better choice for my O-fest.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 09, 2011, 01:41:27 pm
I think I would use either 2000 or 2001.  Maybe 2007.  But I wouldn't use the rest of them for an o-fest if I could help it.

Of course, that's assuming you have control over your fermentation temps. ;)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tom on July 09, 2011, 07:23:23 pm
Here's what Wyeast recommends for Oktoberfests:   
    2124 - Bohemian Lager™
    2206 - Bavarian Lager
    2308 - Munich Lager™
    2633 - Octoberfest Lager Blend™

Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: bluesman on July 09, 2011, 08:25:53 pm
I use White Labs yeasts for my Ofests, but I checked the equivalent Wyeast strain and...

WLP830 German Lager Yeast = 2124 Bohemian Lager Yeast
WLP833 German Bock Yeast = 2487 Hella-Bock

I think you'll be in real good shape with any of these yeast strains.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 09, 2011, 09:09:01 pm
Guys, the only options are in the list.  Pick one. :)

2000 Budvar Lager
2007 Pilsen Lager
2001 Urquell Lager
2035 American Lager
2565 Kolsch
1007 German Ale
WLP001 California Ale
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tom on July 09, 2011, 10:03:41 pm
Loosely quoting Denny "why brew if you have your malt and hops, but not your yeast?"
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 09, 2011, 10:13:58 pm
Denny really says that? :-\

I'm more of a "try it and see what happens" kind of person.  Who knows, you might make something great. ;)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tygo on July 10, 2011, 05:29:40 am
WLP833 German Bock Yeast = 2487 Hella-Bock

I believe this one is wrong on Kristen England's chart.  2487 is supposedly the Samiclaus strain.  I think 833 is Ayinger.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: malzig on July 10, 2011, 05:32:20 am
2000 or 2001 should be fine.   2007 would be my last choice.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: denny on July 10, 2011, 10:38:10 am
Denny really says that? :-\

I'm more of a "try it and see what happens" kind of person.  Who knows, you might make something great. ;)

Well, Tom kinda paraphrased it....I was really referring to starters and said "If your yeast isn't ready, you;re no more ready to brew than if you don't have malt and hops".  That said, I'm not enough of a "try it and see what happens" guy that I'd go for a vastly different ingredient.  But it looks like there are some reasonable choices on the OP's list.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 10, 2011, 11:03:24 am
Oh, that's different.  It is one thing to say "the yeast isn't ready", it is something else to say "I can't get the exact strain I want".

I would use a vastly different ingredient just to see what happens, but I wouldn't expect it to taste traditional.  So you could make an o-fest with kolsch yeast, you just shouldn't expect it to taste like an o-fest.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: denny on July 10, 2011, 11:09:10 am
Oh, that's different.  It is one thing to say "the yeast isn't ready", it is something else to say "I can't get the exact strain I want".

I would use a vastly different ingredient just to see what happens, but I wouldn't expect it to taste traditional.  So you could make an o-fest with kolsch yeast, you just shouldn't expect it to taste like an o-fest.

And if it didn't taste like an Ofest, then you wouldn't be making an Ofest, right?  You'd be making a malty beer using kolsch yeast.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 10, 2011, 12:45:54 pm
Agreed, that's why I said I wouldn't use the rest for an o-fest. :)

But in terms of short hand description, "o-fest with kolsch yeast" gives you a better idea of the flavor than "malty beer with kolsch yeast", don't you think?  Like "black IPA" is a good short hand description of the flavor of the beer, but a stupid name. ;D
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: Will's Swill on July 10, 2011, 02:59:24 pm
Oh, crap.  Here we go...  ;)

Just read about the Deschutes/Boulevard White IPA in Zymurgy...
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: denny on July 10, 2011, 03:14:35 pm
But in terms of short hand description, "o-fest with kolsch yeast" gives you a better idea of the flavor than "malty beer with kolsch yeast", don't you think? 

Actually, no I don't think so...at least it doesn't work for me.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: bluesman on July 10, 2011, 03:53:51 pm
I prefer to make a beer style using the appropriate ingredients. Perhaps it's the German in me. I wouldn't try making an Ofest with Kolsch yeast as I think it would not turn out the way I wanted it and that's just the way I roll.  ;D

That being said, I have used many Heinz 57 type recipes but with the intent of doing so. In other words, when using a mix and match of ingredients I expect a mix and match flavor. Most of the time I try to avoid this but it's okay in a pinch.

The OP should understand that he will not get a classic flavor profile from the yeasts he's listed. He will come close but no cigar. IMO. I'm considering the classic examples as the target. Now if he's okay with something close then I would go with the 2001 as it will lend a more balanced profile. Rich maltiness is the key here.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 10, 2011, 05:06:35 pm
But in terms of short hand description, "o-fest with kolsch yeast" gives you a better idea of the flavor than "malty beer with kolsch yeast", don't you think?

Actually, no I don't think so...at least it doesn't work for me.  YMMV.
That's fine.  You're just probably not thinking about it the same way I am.  If you were, you'd agree with me  ;) ;D

Saying it is an o-fest with kolsch yeast tells me what kind of malt to expect - Vienna and probably some Munich character, no caramel or roast.

Just saying malty can mean a lot of things, so you've got to describe it further if you want me to be able to imagine what it tastes like.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: a10t2 on July 10, 2011, 09:16:30 pm
Oh, crap.  Here we go...  ;)

Just read about the Deschutes/Boulevard White IPA in Zymurgy...

There's a new nano in Indianapolis brewing a "Cascadian Light Ale". ;D
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: bluesman on July 11, 2011, 05:25:43 am
Oh, crap.  Here we go...  ;)

Just read about the Deschutes/Boulevard White IPA in Zymurgy...

There's a new nano in Indianapolis brewing a "Cascadian Light Ale". ;D

That's too funny.  :)

But if it tastes great and it sells, then it doesn't matter what you call it.  ;)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: mtnandy on July 11, 2011, 06:14:00 am
Thanks for the feedback guys. I am going with the 2000. I wish I had the proper yeast, but I have a bunch of coworkers who will be joining me for brew day this weekend, and I can't really move the date. As long as it tastes like a good "autumn" beer, I don't care too much about it truly being an O-fest. By the way, here is my recipe:

4 lbs Vienna
3 lbs Munich
2.5 lbs Pilsner
.5 lb Carapils
.5 lb Caramunich
.25 lb Melanoidin
1.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (60 min)
0.5 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (20 min)

single infusion @153, batch sparge
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: bluesman on July 11, 2011, 07:49:20 am
Thanks for the feedback guys. I am going with the 2000. I wish I had the proper yeast, but I have a bunch of coworkers who will be joining me for brew day this weekend, and I can't really move the date. As long as it tastes like a good "autumn" beer, I don't care too much about it truly being an O-fest. By the way, here is my recipe:

4 lbs Vienna
3 lbs Munich
2.5 lbs Pilsner
.5 lb Carapils
.5 lb Caramunich
.25 lb Melanoidin
1.5 oz Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (60 min)
0.5 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% (20 min)

single infusion @153, batch sparge

I think it will make a fine beer. The recipe looks good. Good Luck!  :)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: denny on July 11, 2011, 09:45:52 am
But in terms of short hand description, "o-fest with kolsch yeast" gives you a better idea of the flavor than "malty beer with kolsch yeast", don't you think?

Actually, no I don't think so...at least it doesn't work for me.  YMMV.
That's fine.  You're just probably not thinking about it the same way I am.  If you were, you'd agree with me  ;) ;D

Saying it is an o-fest with kolsch yeast tells me what kind of malt to expect - Vienna and probably some Munich character, no caramel or roast.

Just saying malty can mean a lot of things, so you've got to describe it further if you want me to be able to imagine what it tastes like.

OK, you win.... ;D
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 11, 2011, 09:59:00 am
OK, you win.... ;D
Awesome!  What do I win? ;D
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: denny on July 11, 2011, 10:39:59 am
OK, you win.... ;D
Awesome!  What do I win? ;D

A week long visit from me.....oh, waidaminnit, that's what the loser gets!  ;)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: chumley on July 11, 2011, 10:48:05 am
While I haven't done it, I think that Budvar yeast would make a fine O'fest. It leaves a nice residual malty sweetness.

It sure makes a fine pilsner.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: tschmidlin on July 11, 2011, 11:33:27 am
OK, you win.... ;D
Awesome!  What do I win? ;D

A week long visit from me.....oh, waidaminnit, that's what the loser gets!  ;)
You know you're always welcome. :)  I guess that makes me a loser! ;D
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: alikocho on July 11, 2011, 05:12:49 pm
Oh, crap.  Here we go...  ;)

Just read about the Deschutes/Boulevard White IPA in Zymurgy...

There's a new nano in Indianapolis brewing a "Cascadian Light Ale". ;D

That's too funny.  :)

But if it tastes great and it sells, then it doesn't matter what you call it.  ;)

I was at a meeting of brewers in London recently. Black IPA's were being tasted. The head brewer of a well known brewery looked up and said "these are good. I think we'll brew a pale one and see how it comes out."

Oh, and then there's the White Stout idea (aka Project Moby) that one of the craft brewers in my home town is thinking about.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: Will's Swill on July 11, 2011, 05:36:45 pm
Ok, I'll bite.  What's a Cascadian Light Ale?  A hoppy blonde?

A white stout?  Is that a stout with coriander, orange peel, and wit yeast?  Or a wit with roasted barley?
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: malzig on July 11, 2011, 07:09:41 pm
Ok, I'll bite.  What's a Cascadian Light Ale?  A hoppy blonde?
An IPA.  I'm pretty sure it has to be an inside joke.
Oh, and then there's the White Stout idea (aka Project Moby) that one of the craft brewers in my home town is thinking about.
I've made the range from Irish Stout on down changing only the amount of Roasted Barley.  In the mid to low end low end you get Irish Red Ale.  At the "White Stout" end, you get something like an English Summer Ale/Bitter.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: jaybeerman on July 11, 2011, 08:12:25 pm
Ok, I'll bite.  What's a Cascadian Light Ale?  A hoppy blonde?
An IPA.  I'm pretty sure it has to be an inside joke.

Nope.  A true Cascadian Light Ale is an IPA with food coloring added, next they neutralize the color.  Brilliant, I wish I knew how they did it.  :)  ;)
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: alikocho on July 12, 2011, 12:34:17 am

Oh, and then there's the White Stout idea (aka Project Moby) that one of the craft brewers in my home town is thinking about.
I've made the range from Irish Stout on down changing only the amount of Roasted Barley.  In the mid to low end low end you get Irish Red Ale.  At the "White Stout" end, you get something like an English Summer Ale/Bitter.

The idea is to get the roasted flavors of a stout in a Wit. He hasn't done it yet.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: gordonstrong on July 12, 2011, 07:50:05 am
Ok, I'll bite.  What's a Cascadian Light Ale? 

Not sure.  I'll bet there are other beers Greg Noonan made that other people haven't claimed to have invented yet.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: a10t2 on July 12, 2011, 08:26:53 am
Ok, I'll bite.  What's a Cascadian Light Ale? 
Not sure.  I'll bet there are other beers Greg Noonan made that other people haven't claimed to have invented yet.
;D

In this case it was a very nice Citra-dominated APA, just with a cheeky name.

This is the place: http://www.bierbrewery.com/ Definitely worth a stop if you're in Indy. The owner/head brewer worked at the homebrew shop that's literally next door for something like a decade. It seemed like maybe he's still trying to nail down some of the recipes, but they're doing tiny batches (1/2 bbl IIRC) and have 10-12 on tap.
Title: Re: Need a Substitute Yeast
Post by: gordonstrong on July 12, 2011, 08:35:20 am
This is the place: http://www.bierbrewery.com/ Definitely worth a stop if you're in Indy. The owner/head brewer worked at the homebrew shop that's literally next door for something like a decade. It seemed like maybe he's still trying to nail down some of the recipes, but they're doing tiny batches (1/2 bbl IIRC) and have 10-12 on tap.

I was just hanging out with these guys this weekend.  They won the pro brewer equivalent of the Ninkasi award at the Indiana Brewers Cup (1000+ entries, most medals).  They make good stuff and are worth checking out.  They brew on large homebrew-scale Blichman systems.