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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: kola on July 11, 2011, 02:56:25 AM

Title: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: kola on July 11, 2011, 02:56:25 AM
Hey

I just attempted my first all-grain brew. I used 12lbs of row-2 pale malt, 1lb of Black Patent, 1lb of Roasted Barley, and 1/2 lbs of chocolate malt.  Everything went pretty well until fermentation. Right now it has been 17 hours since I have pitched the yeast (Wyeast 1084: Irish Ale). I have my fermenter attached to a blowout hose (I prefer it over an airlock) and I can hear the Co2 bubbles, roughly 2-3 bubbles a second. I am just curious as to why there is no krausen formation. Does anyone have an answers?
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: tschmidlin on July 11, 2011, 03:39:46 AM
I usually get a decent krausen with 1084.  I don't suppose you cleaned your carboy with soap or something that would knock down the foam?  It's not the end of the world even if it never forms.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: kola on July 11, 2011, 03:50:47 AM
Just Iodophor and a couple rinses.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: morticaixavier on July 11, 2011, 06:03:30 AM
Just Iodophor and a couple rinses.

not that is would cause what you are describing but yo know you don't have to rinse iodophor right? in fact it sort of defeats the purpose as what ever you use to rinse could be reintroducing contaminants to your vessel.

Only 17 hours I wouldn't worry yet by the way. did you make a starter? could still be getting going. 
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: bluesman on July 11, 2011, 11:30:10 AM
If you don't see any activity within the next 24 hours, then take a gravity reading and report back with the result.

I wouldn't worry you should be fine.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: Will's Swill on July 11, 2011, 11:38:59 PM
Yep, just bottled a dark mild that never formed a krausen.  Thought for sure it didn't ferment as I never saw any bubbles in the airlock either, but the gravity told me otherwise.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: kola on July 13, 2011, 05:06:54 PM
Ya I have been pretty cheap. I haven't bothered witha hydrometer. I usually just judge it off of the amount of Co2 being released. Which as worked for me so far. I am not to worried about the beer, most likely it will turn out. I am just curious to know what caused the krausen not to form.

As far as a starter. It is one of those liquid packets that you smack. I allowed the wyeast pouch to expand for about and hour and a 1/2 before pitching it.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: denny on July 13, 2011, 05:32:30 PM
Ya I have been pretty cheap. I haven't bothered witha hydrometer. I usually just judge it off of the amount of Co2 being released. Which as worked for me so far. I am not to worried about the beer, most likely it will turn out. I am just curious to know what caused the krausen not to form.

As far as a starter. It is one of those liquid packets that you smack. I allowed the wyeast pouch to expand for about and hour and a 1/2 before pitching it.

If you truly want to make better beer, get a hydrometer.  They're inexpensive and can provide a lot of valuable info.

Smacking a Wyeast pack is not the same as making a starter.  A starter will increase the amount of yeast you have so that you will have a better fermentation and make better beer.  See mrmalty.com for more info.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: bigchicken on July 13, 2011, 05:39:56 PM
I agree with Denny. To me a hydrometer is one of the most important brewing tools I have. It can be the difference between blowing up bottles or having fully fermented beer in bottles.
As far as krausen, I generally pay no attention to it.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: bluesman on July 13, 2011, 06:00:56 PM
+1 to the hydrometer. It's a very valuable tool.

As far as yeast pitching rates. Here's some info that has become a general rule in my brewing. Pitch plenty of healthy yeast into a well aerated wort prior to fermentation.

Here's the math from mrmalty.com, JZ's website.

Calculate the number of  yeast cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons
A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager

One Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 100 Billion cells.




Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: Hokerer on July 13, 2011, 06:45:37 PM
One fresh Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: morticaixavier on July 13, 2011, 08:27:31 PM
+1 to the hydrometer. It's a very valuable tool.

As far as yeast pitching rates. Here's some info that has become a general rule in my brewing. Pitch plenty of healthy yeast into a well aerated wort prior to fermentation.

Here's the math from mrmalty.com, JZ's website.

Calculate the number of  yeast cells needed. For an ale, you want to pitch around 0.75 million cells of viable yeast (0.75 million for an ale, 1.5 million for a lager), for every milliliter of wort, for every degree plato.

(0.75 million) X (milliliters of wort) X (degrees Plato of the wort)

There is about 3785 milliliters in a gallon. There are about 20,000 milliliters in 5.25 gallons
A degree Plato is about 1.004 of original gravity. Just divide the OG by 4 to get Plato (e.g., 1.048 is 12 degrees Plato).

So, for a 1.048 wort pitching into 5.25 gallons you need about 180 billion cells.

(750,000) X (20,000) X (12) = 180,000,000,000

As an easy to remember rough estimate, you need about 15 billion cells for each degree Plato or about 4 billion cells for each point of OG when pitching into a little over 5 gallons of wort. If you want a quick way of doing a back of the envelope estimate, that is really close to 0.75 billion cells for each point of gravity per gallon of wort. Double that to 1.5 billion for a lager

One Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.




I think your math is wrong somewhere. If you plug a 1.048 wort into Mr Malty and ask how many vials/smackpacks to pitch it does not say 180, more like 1.8. if a vial is 1 billion and you are saying that 5 gallons of 1.048 wort needs 180,000,000,000 you would need to pitch 180 Frsh vials into it to get your desired level as stated above. Perhaps litres instead of millilitres?
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: tschmidlin on July 13, 2011, 08:49:05 PM
One Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.

I think your math is wrong somewhere. If you plug a 1.048 wort into Mr Malty and ask how many vials/smackpacks to pitch it does not say 180, more like 1.8. if a vial is 1 billion and you are saying that 5 gallons of 1.048 wort needs 180,000,000,000 you would need to pitch 180 Frsh vials into it to get your desired level as stated above. Perhaps litres instead of millilitres?
Yes, bad math, wrong spot though.  100 Billion cells per smack pack.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: morticaixavier on July 13, 2011, 09:00:35 PM
ah okay. didn't have any reference materials in front of me.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: mabrungard on July 13, 2011, 11:56:51 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if the wort is lacking enough body builders to raise a head.  Hopefully I'm wrong, but if the resulting beer has poor head production and retention, then an addition of a minor percentage of wheat malt, flaked wheat, or flaked barley is recommended for the next brew.  On the order of 1/4 lb in a 5 gal batch can do miracles.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: maxieboy on July 14, 2011, 12:15:29 AM
No hydrometer, no brewing for me. I do prefer a refractometer pre-fermentation however. Someone on the board has a sig: measuring is knowing. It's a must in the brewing game.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: bluesman on July 14, 2011, 12:58:32 AM
One Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.

I think your math is wrong somewhere. If you plug a 1.048 wort into Mr Malty and ask how many vials/smackpacks to pitch it does not say 180, more like 1.8. if a vial is 1 billion and you are saying that 5 gallons of 1.048 wort needs 180,000,000,000 you would need to pitch 180 Frsh vials into it to get your desired level as stated above. Perhaps litres instead of millilitres?
Yes, bad math, wrong spot though.  100 Billion cells per smack pack.

Thanks for the edit Tom.

I corrected my post to reflect 100 billion cells per smack pack or vial of yeast.
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: bluesman on July 14, 2011, 12:58:58 AM
One fresh Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.

Absolutely correct!
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: Hokerer on July 14, 2011, 01:37:06 AM
One fresh Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial is equivalent to 1 Billion cells.

Absolutely correct!

Well yeah, except where I missed the 1 vs 100 part  :(
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: euge on July 14, 2011, 02:27:51 AM
My brewing is pretty consistent so I sometimes forget to take a reading. My most important measuring tool is the thermometer though I'd miss the hydrometor.

Funny I was thinking about this thread when I noticed the batch brewed last Sunday was finished apparently on Monday. ???

Then just realized tonight I've just been looking in the wrong fermenter and at the Kolsch that was brewed over a week ago. ;D
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: denny on July 14, 2011, 03:45:42 PM
Pitching rate and fermentation characteristics play a large part in head formation and retention in the finished beer, so they might also have a role during fermentation.  her's a great article...

http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/35-head-retention/697-getting-good-beer-foam-techniques
Title: Re: Fermentation is occurring w/o Krausen formation.
Post by: ibru on July 15, 2011, 02:25:17 PM
That's funny euge!